Culture Series: Disintegration, a Book by Eugene Robinson

The following is a computer-generated transcript. WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.020 --> 00:01:29.860 Hello. Welcome to the Call It Like I See It Podcast. I'm James Keys. And in this episode of Call It Like I See It, we're going to discuss some things we saw in Disintegration, a book by the Pulitzer Prize winning columnist Eugene Robinson, which, as indicated in its subtitle, takes a look at what Robinson calls the splintering of black America. Now, this book really goes into a premise that could be considered pretty counterintuitive when considered in light of many common media and cultural narratives. The premise being that in modern American society, African Americans are no longer a cultural or just any type of just a societal monolith monolith, and that everyone belongs essentially to a single black America, or that there is a black America that one person or one group can speak on behalf. Instead, Robinson goes into his belief that black America is now broken up into four distinct groups. Joining me today is a man whose deep takes can leave a person saying you dropped a bomb on me. Tunde Ogunlana Tunde. Are you ready to fill in some gaps for the people here today? 2 00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:32.660 Of course, man, I'm a gap filler. 3 00:01:33.200 --> 00:02:34.260 All right. All right. Now, we're recording this on October 3rd, 2022, and we continue our culture series today by doing some reading between the lines in the 2011 book Disintegration The Splintering of Black America, by Eugene Robinson, who's a columnist and associate editor of The Washington Post. Amongst, amongst other things, he's a media member. That's a lot of places. But in this book, he discusses how he has seen black America evolve over the past few decades from what was largely a single entity into what he identifies as four distinct groups a mainstream middle class majority, a large abandoned minority, a small, transcendent elite, and emergent groups, one of which would be individuals of mixed race heritage and another would be community of recent black immigrants. So Tunde, what was your initial reaction? Let's start with the book's general premise and then we can get more into some of the details. 4 00:02:35.480 --> 00:04:47.060 I'm no great question. I mean, my my general feeling about the book was, was, you know, it intrigued me. I had never it put it this way. The book. Brought to me something in written format that someone else put together, things that I had already thought in my head, but they were not. They were kind of just thoughts that were disparate. This book kind of culminated it and helped put those thoughts together because I had long, you know, just my own upbringing and my own experience in life have felt that. You know, a lot of people not in the black community in the United States. Let's just stick to, you know, our own culture here. Look at black Americans specifically as a monolith, kind of like as a group. Every black person kind of moves in lockstep generally. And I think that has changed in recent years. But I'm talking like when we were kids, like growing up in the 80 seconds, 90 seconds, you know, early 2000s. Um, and I think this book did a great job of identifying where the, the kind of concept of the monolith has broken down. But I don't think our culture as a whole has recognized that, meaning American culture, not black or white culture, but American culture. So for me, the book did a great job in articulating kind of areas, the tensions from actual integration working, let me put it that way. And I thought that was interesting. And especially as someone who is the son of a Nigerian immigrant, which is where my name comes from for the audience, um. I think I felt that in my bones that, yeah, Africans, Caribbeans don't necessarily share the same culture as African Americans per se. However, when you're in America, you're all considered the same. Black Right. And I think that black folks know that that's not true in a sense. But we also know that the rest of society looks at us a lot of times as if it is true. So it's an interesting dynamic. But the book brought it out well. 5 00:04:47.060 --> 00:06:21.660 And I would say I would add, I think it's not just always from the outside as well. Like, I think there's also inter black America pressures a lot of times that want to to to to have there be a black. Quote unquote experience or and for a while, though, to your point, the black experience hasn't been monolithic, you know, for a few decades. You know, like there have been black blacks that have had different types of experiences, you know, whether it be coming from, you know, the the typical, oh, black, oh, inner city or underprivileged and stuff like that, which is real. But that hasn't been the only black experience for a long time. And so I think that it is kind of an acknowledgment of things that people have felt, you know, depending on the circles you're in or your life experiences that people have felt like, hey, you know, it's not just, you know, like inner city or just, you know, like certain certain keywords that like, you would point out the culture at large might identify as, oh, well, that's black people, but there's more going on there. And so I think that what he's doing basically is trying to articulate kind of beyond, okay, there's the premise and then trying to lay out a framework. And so you can critique his framework, you can critique his premise. But I thought the premise itself was interesting because because a lot of times, you know, whether it be internal or external, there's just a general and I don't want to say lazy thinking, but just kind of a general accepted thought like, oh, okay, that's this is where's the black leader or where is this? This is black culture and this isn't so where all black folks are immediately a member of. 6 00:06:21.660 --> 00:07:45.780 And then it's something that is that ties them all together because where it comes from a lot of times and I'll add this, but I do want to get some of your thoughts on the specific groups. But where it comes from I think is very important as well. I think the idea of blacks as a monolith didn't necessarily originate because that's the way black folks wanted to be. But I think that was out of preservation in many senses. But when the overwhelming life pressure on All Blacks was hot racism like, Hey, we'll kill you if we find you in this town after sundown. Or, you know, if if you try to move to this place, we're going to burn your house down like that type of just stuff where it's the things that we look back at the 50s or the 60s or the 40s or the 20s, and we read about history where those types of things were ever present in every black person's life. I think that led to such a struggle that was so common, that made up it wasn't all of their lives, but it made up such an important and overwhelming part of their lives that it did coalesce everybody and saying, Hey, well, if we can't deal with this, then we can't deal with anything else. And so we all we all face this together, so we might as well all deal together. And so to your point, integration working this kind of illustrates that the same kind of there's not the same kind of overwhelming pressure on all black people in the whole country that dominates their their entire existence. If we don't get this right, then we get nothing else, so to speak. 7 00:07:46.560 --> 00:08:07.980 Yeah, I wrote on my notes in preparation for today. Africa is not a country back. That was my simple way of saying that we're not a monolith. Back to the basics reminded me. I saw an article somewhere like recently in the last couple of weeks said Most Americans think Africa is a country. And it's just and that's my point. 8 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:13.670 And remember, if you look at the map, Africa is smaller than Greenland. So, yeah, it's. 9 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:40.730 Just but my point is that's why I make the joke to say that. That that is that is part of just the cultural history, right? That that there's just this continent over there with a bunch of dark people and no one really knows much about it or cares to learn about it, and therefore no one sees the nuances in the different culture, like most people wouldn't be able to tell you the difference between an Ethiopian and a Nigerian or a Ugandan. 10 00:08:40.730 --> 00:08:42.800 And Nigerians and Ethiopians. 11 00:08:43.820 --> 00:09:44.970 Exactly. I'm talking about in America or or recognize Egypt being part of Africa. You know, they try and carve that out historically as some other, you know, some some some some different kind of land. So I think that it stands to reason that if you look at, you know, we're just in this long arc of of of history of five, 600 years, first of European colonialism, which looked at the continent of Africa a certain way, that it was a place where resources, including people, were to be extracted for the new colonies and to build more wealth for, you know, the European colonists. Right. That's that's, that's the original way that the society of which we live in, which is the European dominated culture, looked at that part of the world. And then like you said, up until 1965, most people of that group in this country had a shared experience. Right? And so. 12 00:09:44.970 --> 00:11:10.710 Well, they were forced essentially into a shared experience. I don't like that's what I think is the. And because you talk about this a lot in terms of integration worked, so to speak, you know, And so I think that in a sense and now integration, I would say I would always add the caveat to that, that it worked in many respects from the perspective of black people, that it opened up more opportunities, more places to be and so forth. And because and with this book just bringing it back, I think that from the standpoint this actually really goes into less so how society at large sees black people like that's in there a little bit. But this is how I think black people see themselves and the categories of how a black person in the what he calls the the mainstream middle class. And I want to get I'm going to actually lay out each each category he lays out. They don't see themself in the same way or their place in society in the same way as one of the people from the emergent, whether that would be, you know, like a recent black immigrant or something like that or somebody in the what he calls the abandoned. And so the four groups, just so we can kind of lay that out and then we can talk about it in a bit more detail, he lays out first, it's a mainstream middle class majority, which is that's the the largest group, as he points out. And they are fully there in American society, you know, like they have the ability to to to try to buy homes, try to have jobs, try to have retirements and things like that, you know, like they are the that they're doing the things that, you know, in American society that most people think of as, quote unquote, normal. 13 00:11:10.710 --> 00:12:33.110 Now, you know, to the extent those are attainable and to the extent they're able to do those to the same degree as everyone else is not really talked about, but just they have access to that stuff. He also talks about a large abandoned minority. And this is this is what, you know, like he references what people think about, okay, yeah, black culture, the hood or the inner city and so forth. And this is people who have not and don't have much opportunity to escape poverty and so forth like they are. They he calls them abandoned in the sense that they've been left behind, so to speak. He also points to a small group, a transcendent group, a group that distinguishing from maybe a well-to-do black person in the 1960s who still lived in the same neighborhood with all the other black people because of segregation and because redlining and so forth, they couldn't go other places. This transcendent group, this is the Oprah Winfrey's of the world. They are as rich, as powerful, as rich and powerful as anyone, you know. And so he talks about them and how black folks have gotten into that, or there are black folks that are that group that have not much in common with the the majority middle class, so to speak. And then he talks about the emergent, which he breaks down into two separate groups, but just similar in the sense that they don't have the same a view of America in the same way that the other three groups do, and that is the individuals of mixed race heritage and the the recent black immigrants. So, Tony, I'm just gonna throw it to you. Go long. 14 00:12:33.980 --> 00:12:35.660 There's a lot to throw to me, dude. Yeah. 15 00:12:35.660 --> 00:12:46.280 Yeah. No, just there's so much there, so I'm not going to try to guide you anything. Just, you know, thoughts on the classes, the four classes, any individual class, anywhere. You know what what would you like to, to pick up from on that? 16 00:12:46.280 --> 00:14:30.070 Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, it was great because again, these are things that I somewhat have identified personally, but he again, just he lays out a frame. Yeah. Crystallized the framework because, you know, I'll say this and I'll speak about myself personally. Right. I just mentioned my father's an immigrant from Nigeria, Nigeria. My mother was actually an immigrant from Hungary in Europe. So I've got both of the last one, emergent group, which is I'm a son of immigrants. And the fact that, you know, in the way that we talk. Talk about things, right? I'm of mixed race. I've got a European mother who would be considered white and I've got an African father considered black now. It's interesting because people would ask me, even from a kid to, you know, adult now, well, what do you consider yourself? Right. And, you know, I guess at first I got to say a human being. And then the second thing I would say, honestly, I developed this thing. I'd say, well, in the United States, you know, I'm considered black. I caucused with the African-Americans to so to speak. And my point is, is I've got no problem with that. I'm proud of being saying that. The difference, though, I always knew and I've shared with this with you for the audience, just James and I have talked personally one thing as much as someone from the outside might look at you and I and say, Hey, there's two black guys, two black American guys, how different is our own cultural and and our family history? Right. Because that's one thing I always say. Yeah, I'm proud to consider myself black American. However ever. I don't own the history of Jim Crow. I don't I can't own the history of slavery. And I don't say that in a way that's good or bad. I'm just saying that I recognize that that cuts me off. 17 00:14:30.070 --> 00:14:42.300 If your parents were immigrants, even the point of which like like your mom didn't even when she came here, she didn't have the background or, you know, like that, that cultural baggage, so to speak, either like your dad or your mom like. 18 00:14:42.300 --> 00:14:54.460 So that's and that's what I'm saying. Like, I don't I don't I can't appreciate, like you do the history of Jim Crow or slavery because it was never in my family. I didn't grow up hearing about family members. 19 00:14:55.170 --> 00:14:58.070 My mom told me about integrating a school, you know, like exactly. 20 00:14:58.080 --> 00:15:48.460 Like I never. And the interesting thing, too, is being having two parents that are white and black but not American. Yeah, that's what my mom my mom would never understand. The white American racism she just couldn't like. It's different in Europe and other places, you know, Canada, Australia. It's not to say that they don't have racism in those areas, but the American you know, white supremacy just is a different culture than in other areas where, you know, there's racism. And so my mom had to get, you know, acclimated to the United States and my dad also, you know, because where he's from in Nigeria, black people are running the government and running things. So he came here and it was like looking down on African Americans, like, how come you guys are accepting this? So it's a very interesting dynamic. And that's what I mean. Like from my own just life, I kind of saw this stuff, but the book did a great job of of crystallizing it. 21 00:15:48.580 --> 00:17:14.220 Yeah. And now, you know, you live, you know, and you're like, you're fully into the American system, like you have, you know, own a home and, you know, do very well for yourself and so forth. So you, like your experience will be different in terms of how you pass that on as well. And like for me, you know, from my standpoint, I'm a son of an attorney and a teacher, you know, so to me, I came from like the kind of that mainstream middle class background. I'm an attorney myself. I'm still in that, you know. So my experience would be different from a lot of other people. And I think that that really is the the insight of the book. And so I grew up with that. You know, I grew up with that. A lot of my friends were differently situated than I was, you know, like and so and we were fine with that. Everybody, you know, people are people in that sense. But you got to see how different experiences, different expectations and so forth played out. And so I think like I think framework is a good idea because or a good way to present this because what it is basically and again, you can agree with the framework or take issue with the framework and say, Oh, I don't agree with this part, or he shouldn't have these two emerging groups categorizing them together or, you know, the mainstream group should be like, you can critique all that. But what he's doing is providing a framework to then talk about the phenomenon, because the phenomenon is real, you know, like there is and he goes through in the book how in in times of segregation, black folks were all confined to the same neighborhood, whether they were, you know, professional class or whether they were laborers or whatever. 22 00:17:14.370 --> 00:18:10.810 It was all the same neighborhood. And there were some nice houses there and there were some not not nicest places there. And it was all together. And that was is in in large part because there were no other options. And so once options started to become available, once you had the desegregation, once you had the laws outlawing the the redlining and so forth. And what he notes also in terms of the emergent group, once you had laws that allowed immigrants from other places in the world, you know, beyond just Europe or whatever, then you had all of these black immigrants coming as well. So the the the black the quote unquote, black experience. There's just a lot of them, you know. And so that's why I said I look at this more as internal in the black community. We're looking around at each other and saying, hey, you know, like we are we are all aren't coming from the same exact same place, you know, And so we can find commonality. But it's not all like the commonality isn't because we've all walked in the exact same. We've all walked the exact same path. 23 00:18:10.840 --> 00:19:31.980 Well, the commonality, I think, comes when the group feels attacked. And that could be, you know, whether it be, you know, like a George. Lloyd incident, right? Like that's where something like, okay, well, no matter where my mom and dad are from and where your mom or dad are from, I just know that, you know, God forbid that was me being arrested by that very specific police officer, he would have treated us the same. Right. So the interesting thing, because what you're saying is correct, the book is is is good in several ways, because you're right. One is a conversation within the black community about, you know, who are we, what are we, you know, who are we to each other, Things like that. Because I saw I'll say this moving to South Florida. You know, in my around 20 was a good wake up call. And I had a little culture shock coming down here for the first couple of years because I had never been around large groups of black immigrants. Like down here in South Florida, we got a lot of Caribbean, Jamaican, Haitian people from those countries. And they come here and generally, you know, very entrepreneurial. And it was the first time that I saw black people disrespecting black Americans when I moved down here and calling black Americans lazy and things like that, you know, coming from other black people that just weren't American. Like I say, people you. 24 00:19:31.980 --> 00:19:37.200 Viewed as black people because of your American ness, so to speak, you know. 25 00:19:37.200 --> 00:20:53.170 And and it was just a good experience for me, actually. Not not that I said it was something that, you know, got me upset and disturbed, but it was a it was the first. That's what I mean. Like, I saw this like, okay, these people who immigrate here, these these from the Caribbean, I've heard a lot of Caribbean people tell me this. I didn't know it was black until I came to America. Like, they don't identify with the African American struggle. They don't identify with African Americans. But yet and that's what I mean it's in the book is interesting because it's it's it's it's a little bit about inside of the black conversation and what it all means all these different groups. But also then how does the United States as a whole, all the other people outside the black community look at black people? And I think that's what the interesting dynamic is, is that these changes are happening. Within the black community, while the United States is still in the process of holding on to some of the old ways and stereotypes of blacks, but also in the midst of changing it. And so it's like you said, if you tell anyone today the word urban. Most people will think of urban as black, a kind of another word for saying, Oh, that's. 26 00:20:53.330 --> 00:20:59.570 Black culture or things like, Oh, it's an urban culture thing. Or like there's certain, Then it's like, Yeah, well. 27 00:20:59.570 --> 00:21:03.470 There's a lot of blacks that live in rural areas, right? And there's a lot of whites that live in urban areas. 28 00:21:03.500 --> 00:22:30.090 Also, they're also not talking about black middle class people either. Like that's what I'm saying. Like it's actually it denotes a specific type of black which would be categorized by Robinson a certain way. And I'll tell you this and what I was going to say before and I did, you know, I just want to say it clearly is the share. Like what you point out, like with the George Floyd thing is as a minority group, as a group that is not in this this transcends, quote unquote, race. It could be any minority in a society, whether it be religious or tribal or whatever. When a minority group or people who would ostensibly be a member of a minority group, when that group feels attacked, there is a solidarity that comes just from the virtue of being a minority. So you do see that in terms of how when there is a threat, there is, you know, like there's something that more comes together where, you know, this quote unquote group, multiple groups of black America, will will then find their shared experience. But what I note really about these categories more than anything, looking at a bigger picture is how this you could segment all of society like this. And so really what he's talking about is how like, oh, okay, Well, now black America isn't just this monolith. It's kind of like the rest of society where or any not the rest of society for like completely. But once it becomes fully engaged and kind of into implemented into a society, so to speak, like if a group emigrates over, then they're going to be the immigrant group right away. 29 00:22:30.090 --> 00:23:33.270 But as that group has been here for a couple of generations, then they kind of segment into a middle class or to a lower class or some, you know, some a few of them will get into the super elite and then but they all won't be the immigrant, so to speak, anymore. They'll kind of just, you know, and then the new immigrants replace them. And so and one thing you point out, you know, in terms of how people from the Caribbean came here and would say, oh, I didn't know I was black until I came here. Well, we've heard that before. When we talk about 100 years ago, immigration from Europe and people, you know, people who would come to Irish or the Italians, they weren't quote unquote, white when they got here. But a couple of years couple, you know, decades or whatever in American culture. And then they became white, you know, like. And so it's almost like that part about it, the racial part about it is something that's a construct in our society that people almost have to fit into. But within that, there's still these groups break out. And so black America basically has broken out into these same groups that our society tends to to kind of to, to segment into. 30 00:23:33.300 --> 00:25:08.010 Yeah. And I think and that's kind of where what I'm saying is that and that's what I mean like integration worked. So you have now black Americans that are in all stripes, right? I mean, it's interesting. I'm reminded here I was watching one of these news shows and the guy made a comment that I can't argue with, actually. He said, Clarence Thomas is the most powerful Republican in the United States. And I thought about it. And, you know, I mean, no one can argue that or not, but it's hard to argue it. Right. He's a very popular person on the right. And it's interesting because he's a black American. Right. And I think that that is actually something to be celebrated in a certain sense because it shows the fact that blacks aren't a monolith. And so I think that if if if you think about it, what what kind of I guess what I'm saying is I still see even mainstream media and others doing things like saying, oh, you know, overwhelmingly, you know, this affects poor people and brown people and black people. It's like always shoving in blacks that the majority is poor and struggling and all that. And, you know, we've talked about it. 25% of African-Americans today live below the poverty level, which means that 75% live above it. But no one talks about that in the same way in the mainstream conversation still. That's what I mean, that we look at our own group and see all these moving pieces. And that's what I mean. We see people like you as an attorney. We see people on the corner. They're still selling drugs. All that that that shows the diversity of the group. But a lot of people from the outside. 31 00:25:08.010 --> 00:25:10.430 Diversity you would find in almost any group. 32 00:25:11.110 --> 00:26:23.160 I mean, that integration worked. There's people that are doing the wrong thing. There's people that are doing the right thing. There's people you know, it's a large group and but the society still has a knee jerk. I feel like cultural reaction to just, you know, kind of mental filing cabinet, putting people in a certain segment when they talk about blacks. I mean, I even had. Like people that I think should know better than to say things like this. I had a doctor look at me about my blood pressure and say, well, you know, because you're African American, you know, your blood pressure is higher. And I just thought, what an ignorant thing to say to me. First of all, you didn't ask who I am. I'm half white. So what genetics did I inherit? You don't freaking know, and I don't know. So that's bullshit. The second thing is. I don't know that people in the Caribbean and in West Africa and all that had had all the same issues African Americans had. They don't because it's not genetic. It's cultural. Because unfortunately, many African Americans have poor health due to poor diets, things like that. But again, the doctor didn't ask me, what do I eat? How do I take care of myself? Do I exercise? He just comes in with this immediate assumption, Oh, you're black. You got high blood pressure. 33 00:26:23.430 --> 00:26:26.640 You must participate in all those unhealthy things. You must. 34 00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:43.140 You must be part of this group that eats too much salt and too much sugar and doesn't exercise. But that's that's that's my point about the stereotype. And I'm not angry when I say that. I'm just saying that it's an example where in our minds we are passed a lot of those stereotypes, meaning people like you and I literally going out, walking in the street. 35 00:26:43.140 --> 00:27:42.580 But we have to be because we have to interact with different types of people. But the default and the default, it's not all black people that are beyond this default either. But the default is to still identify blacks as a part of an underclass. You know, like that's kind of the default. And some blacks still do that as well, like some like people. You'll find people of all colors that would that kind of slip into that default. And it's only until they hear you talk or they see, you know, what kind of car you drive. It's like, oh, no, he's not. And it's almost like like we hear people talk, Oh, real Americans, this, real Americans that. And, you know, you and I kind of make fun of that a little bit, but it's like at times it'll almost appear like people think, well, oh, a real black person will be a certain thing, you know, I'm saying. And then, oh, well, you're not one of them. You're, you're something else. And it's like, well, and so again, like whether you quibble with the categories Robinson lays out, it just it's a good way to kind of think about that in terms of how. Okay. Yeah. It there actually is articulable differences from where large groups of black people are coming from. 36 00:27:42.850 --> 00:28:22.600 Yeah. Well, and I think that's that's very accurate because of the changes we've seen since 1965. I mean, and the reason I bring up 65 periodically is because that was the legislation the year that the legislation of the National Civil Rights Act was was was put into law. So that began I mean, you had the Fair Housing Act of 1968. So there were I mean, people don't realize think about it in our state right here, Florida, they didn't desegregate public schools until 1973. So even though you had this the Civil Rights Act of 65, you probably had about another decade of legislation throughout the country just to kind of get things equal. And, you know, I think. 37 00:28:22.600 --> 00:28:25.060 That's troops and federal troops at. 38 00:28:25.060 --> 00:28:45.950 All. Well, that's what I was going to say. I mean, I think that's the real disservice we do ourselves as Americans by not allowing this kind of history to be taught about what really how difficult it was. I mean, think about what I'm saying. A National Civil Rights Act passed in 65. Took eight years for the state of Florida to desegregate its public schools. 39 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:50.400 Said another way it took eight years for the state of Florida to obey the law. Correct. 40 00:28:50.400 --> 00:29:03.850 So and so. Why is that right? It's not because, you know, Floridians don't know how to obey laws in that way. It's because there was that much resistance against just letting white kids go to school with black kids. 41 00:29:03.870 --> 00:29:13.950 That's it. I mean, you could say they just didn't want to obey the law. Like, that's very artfully. But they decided they didn't they didn't like the outcome of the law, so they weren't going to obey it for for a long time. 42 00:29:13.950 --> 00:29:24.170 And so and so what I'm saying is that that, you know, it's 1973 is not really that long ago. Right. I mean, my wife was born in that year. So, so, so people. 43 00:29:24.240 --> 00:29:25.130 Today, man. 44 00:29:25.140 --> 00:30:30.610 Yeah. No, she's okay. She's okay with her age. Um, I might make fun of her, but, um, but but my point is just saying that, you know, these are still the cultural. That's why I think the book was great and written at the right time because, uh, the time was a lot of. Yeah, a lot of. You're right. A lot of both blacks and whites still carry a lot of these stereotypes and memes in their head about how things should be. But that's why to me, the, the, the immigrant class is very interesting because. They don't come into this country. They're black people, but they don't come in with the same mental baggage. And and so they just come in here looking to work. And, you know, it there's a there's a quote from the book and it's by one of the leading Georgia politicians in 1906 after the Atlanta race riot where, you know, it's kind of like Tulsa, just whites went in and basically burned down the black part of town. And the guys. 45 00:30:30.950 --> 00:30:42.040 Left until the civil rights movement race riot meant the white people went into the black part of town and burned everything down. Like that's what that term referred to until kind of the civil rights movement. And, you know, you started seeing, you know, other stuff. You're not allowed. 46 00:30:42.040 --> 00:30:43.180 To talk about that, remember? 47 00:30:43.270 --> 00:30:44.710 Oh, yes, that's right. That's right. 48 00:30:44.950 --> 00:30:51.940 Anti-woke act in the state. Okay. So don't talk about history against the law. No, but but. 49 00:30:52.720 --> 00:30:55.500 Throwing stones about people who wouldn't integrate according to the law. 50 00:30:55.510 --> 00:31:13.550 So hold on. The politician's name is Hoke Smith. For anyone that wants to look him up. And it's just a simple quote, but it says a lot, right? He says, we will control the Negro peacefully if we can, but with guns if we must. And I think, you know, that stuck out to me because it just is a reminder that, yeah, of course, if you don't talk about history, you'll never know it and you're doomed to repeat it. 51 00:31:13.550 --> 00:31:19.670 But and you'll wonder why black folks in 1906 weren't getting ahead like, Hey, you've been out of slavery for 50 years. 52 00:31:19.670 --> 00:32:12.690 Yeah, exactly. Well, that that's my point, is that in America for many years, up until 65. Right. And up until this this this period of the civil rights era. You know, one of the the main issues, you know, I think W.E.B. Du Bois said to be a Negro in America is to be a constant problem, because that's the way the society looked at black people. Like basically, how do we control them? We're going to keep moving them over here, segregating them over there, redlining them over here. You know, we're going to create all this, this hysteria and say that, you know, because remember that that riot in Atlanta was caused by the media. The newspapers kept printing out because they had a lot of black people visiting town for a fair. And the media on purpose kept printing out that black men kept raping white women. And all of a sudden it just fomented this riot, even. 53 00:32:12.780 --> 00:33:27.760 Start killing black men, you know, randomly. And so that that's a good example, though both the quote you gave and like explaining that that's the example of the kind of persistent and overwhelming threat that existed in this country for so long that kept black people a monolith. No matter how smart you were, no matter how strong you were, no matter how fast you were, you were under that persistent threat at all times. And so it makes you a monolith. It's like, oh, well, you know, like there's no that's the best you have at safety or security is within that monolith, you know. And so and you referenced Du Bois. And I thought one interesting thing actually, you mentioned this to me offline was just how there have been different schools of thought in terms of how to advance in America amongst black people the whole time. I mean, the Booker T and Booker T Washington and W.E.B. Du Bois like famously, you know, had kind of differences of thought in terms of how blacks should move forward. But one of the things I would point out to distinguish this was or distinguish that in this case was in that instance, it still did consider. Now, W.E.B. Du Bois talked about the talented 10th and how they would, you know, blaze trails and so forth. But it's still contemplated the idea of a monolith, you know, and so and how how you move the monolith forward and so forth. 54 00:33:27.760 --> 00:34:25.390 And so now progress, so to speak, doesn't necessarily involve all of those same factors, you know, like so but nonetheless, though, I still want to give a hat tip there because that is kind of the thought process and saying, hey, do we all have to go arm and arm together, lockstep, lockstep, you know, to get to the other side or can the fastest among us shoot ahead and then try to bring everybody else back? Still debates that happen now as you have this disintegration, you know, where people are saying, oh, well, the transcended the LeBron James's need to do more to help the the not necessarily you know, it's not in the context of the abandoned or whatever, but still the same debates we have. So I wanted to give a hat tip. And if you want to, you know, anything on that, but I just want to give a hat tip to that and say those are those were from a different context. Those were about how to approach the threats and how to approach progress. But nonetheless, it's still things that kind of interplay in terms of kind of the framework that that Robinson lays out in this book. 55 00:34:26.220 --> 00:34:51.810 Yeah. And I think, you know, that's why it's just interesting living through actually living through this, right? Because we're, you know, we're that first generation kind of born after. Right after segregation, in a sense, born in the 70s. And so, like you said, you know, I mean, obviously, I'll tip it back to you for this, not me with my immigrant parents. Right? You've got family history where your own parents were the ones integrating places. Right. 56 00:34:52.380 --> 00:34:54.510 And told me about stories when I was a kid. 57 00:34:54.930 --> 00:35:14.970 And your grandparents had tougher experiences and their parents, you know, and and that's the thing is that. And that's why I think it's just interesting because I thought of in preparing for today, two things from one, remember when you were a kid and you would hear about all the things black people don't do? Yeah. Remember, black people don't go skiing. Black people don't play golf. Black people. 58 00:35:15.040 --> 00:35:17.350 Meaning? You mean all the jokes and stuff? All the jokes? 59 00:35:17.350 --> 00:35:28.130 Yeah, but they were from black people. Yes. It wasn't white people saying blacks don't do this. It was. I remember that, you know, at least not in public. Black people. Black. Yeah, but I mean, black people don't go skiing. We don't do that. 60 00:35:28.180 --> 00:35:34.720 It's not. No, no. Even more. It's not black to go skiing. Yeah, like your blackness is questioned if you go skiing. 61 00:35:34.720 --> 00:36:08.000 And because and I guess I thought of it in preparing for the day because I actually thought. When you look back, of course, that that could be a natural result of a group that's been prevented from doing things when segregation was real and they didn't let black people on ski slopes and they didn't let black people play golf and all that stuff that there is, I'm sure, a part of a response culturally that says, okay, well, screw that. If you're saying we can't do it, then I guess, you know, we don't do this. And just like you're saying, it's not black to do that stuff. Yeah, but we didn't want to do it. 62 00:36:08.030 --> 00:36:09.380 Act was type of thing. Yeah. 63 00:36:09.380 --> 00:36:25.390 Yeah. And the contract the contrast sorry to me was. I'm so glad that we're not in those areas anymore. I mean, how many black friends of ours do we know play golf regularly? How many are members of ski clubs? I mean, how many black guys do I know with yachts? Well, it's to your boats, you know, So it's good. 64 00:36:25.390 --> 00:37:37.780 It's just that kind of mentality didn't win out, didn't win the day amongst all black people. And that's but that's to an extent that could be a benefit of blacks no longer considering themselves a monolith, so to speak. This is reality you have it still exists in certain circles. But I want to let me jump back because I want to get back There's another one more point, one more big point I want to get to with the book. And that's the time frame that it was released because this book was released in 2011. So, you know, it's written in the first decade of the 2000. You know, so a lot has happened since then, to put it mildly. Now, this was while Obama Barack Obama was was in his first term as presidency. And so there was now so meaning there was a lot of historical things that had happened at that point. You know, this is post Tiger Woods post, Michael Jordan, you know, those types of things. But what do you think about this book from the context of when it was written and versus how we see it now, you know, like and or how we see these same issues now? Is it the same Is it different or just is there anything that the time period that it was released in and the living we've done in the last 11 years, does anything stand out to you? 65 00:37:37.780 --> 00:37:46.300 Yeah, I mean, a lot, actually. How much time we got here? How much time we got? Yeah. I might have to have a second show. 66 00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:50.740 Well, give me what. What's the what stands out the most then. No, I think, look. 67 00:37:51.040 --> 00:38:13.360 I would actually love to interview Eugene Robinson now, you know, the author of the book to see where he feels, because I think he was very optimistic in 2011, 2010, when the book kind of came out, because you're right, it was Obama's first term. You know, the Tea Party hadn't really formed that energy yet and he hadn't and Barack Obama hadn't. 68 00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:19.990 Well, I mean, now they they you figure he wrote it in 2010. So, I mean, the Tea Party was riding to, you know, like they were 2010. 69 00:38:20.020 --> 00:38:31.170 There wasn't the same or it wasn't 14, correct? Correct. You know, what I'm saying is I don't think he foresaw the type of. Pushback that seemed a little bit irrational that he might not. 70 00:38:31.170 --> 00:38:33.450 Have anticipated it was going to keep going up. Correct. 71 00:38:34.990 --> 00:38:55.550 And also then even things like the George Floyd Summer, the response, you know, the kind of. Let me put here the kind of the spirits that were unleashed by the response to Obama's presence, I think. Let me put it that way. Yeah, I think we I think all of us like. 72 00:38:55.550 --> 00:38:57.920 Charlottesville, you know, like. Yeah, like like. Yes. Yeah. 73 00:38:57.920 --> 00:40:25.340 Well, and it's not just Charlottesville itself because things like that is what I'm saying. Know what I mean is the response of leadership, right? Like. I would say this under prior leaders. Um, I would say any party of any party. They've always been able to make sure that that real, that kind of open racism, right. Gets put in a box in the corner somewhere. You know, I don't care if they're a Republican or Democrat. They didn't court it like it was courted after Charlottesville. And my point is, is that at the end of the day, it's still a backlash to the fact that. We're still in this cultural change where a lot of Americans, including black people, aren't used to seeing this many black people in this many places of influence. And I don't mean just president or politicians. I'm talking about people like me and you guys running their own firms, guys like me driving in a boat, guys like you, driving a nice car. You know, like there's still a lot of people that look at that and say either he had to steal it or somebody gave it to him as a handout. There's people that just don't believe that guys like you and I actually, through our own merit and effort, because we're given a chance, would get something like this because they've been taught that we're stupid and we're lazy. So it's a sign that integration work that when given the the opportunity for 2 or 3 generations that guys like us can excel. 74 00:40:25.610 --> 00:41:46.350 Well, yeah. I mean and the thing is, is that Robinson was celebrating that like that's one of the groups he has is the the transcendent which Barack Obama was is clearly a part of you know, And so he's celebrating that. And so the backlash now, the racist, the idea of a racist backlash is not a new idea. Like we like Dr. King, Martin Luther King, you know, in his 1967 book, Where Do We Go From Here? Chaos or Community, which we did a show on a couple of years back, talks explicitly about racial racist backlash that happens from any form of progress. So the idea that that still existed or that that would still be as strong may have caught some people by surprise, but it's not kind of a new thing. And so I think to me, I don't think it would really change much of the tone of the book, except maybe he might add something to the book in terms of, oh, and this is the this what happens in society when these kind of changes happen, You know? And so ultimately, though, what he what he does, what he lays out is why or what happened Like he's he's more so mean. And maybe this is him as a columnist. He's talking about what happened and talking about talking about like the the way it happened and why why it happened and all that. He's going through it like a like a columnist would, in a sense. And so and given, you know, obviously inserting his thoughts and so forth on it in that way. 75 00:41:46.680 --> 00:43:05.610 But the reaction to it, I think is more of an inevitability. If you understand how American culture has evolved over the years, then undermining or altering the point that he made. And so I think the point he made stands and the point he made stands. And so where we are today is we still have like it's not like what happened was the extreme of what happened at the end of the reconstruction where basically you had black folks segmenting out as was happening during the reconstruction, and then it forced everybody back in together. That didn't happen, you know, in this instance. So the the energy, the reactive backlash, energy that came and, you know, it's still here to some degree did it didn't do what it did then, you know, at least not as of yet. And so I think the premise and his framework, as he lays out, if you buy his framework, still persists, you know, or if it's some other framework that you would you would like to to to, you know, to to subscribe to or whatever. But the framework itself, you know, and he had interesting things in there. I know that you had you had pointed out several things to me in terms of things he talked about as far as with the abandoned group or with the the the mainstream group and so forth, that were just very interesting in terms of you can always the objective aspect, but also our perceptions of these things. 76 00:43:05.610 --> 00:43:43.090 Yeah. And I think, you know, you're bringing up the abandoned I mean you know for the audience we can just assume those are the people, unfortunately under the poverty line who are quote unquote abandoned by society. And the thing is, I start to see it more that that. If more of a socioeconomic conversation than just race, because part of the thing of integration working is and blacks not being a monolith is that member more so I think when we were younger, right? When a black person like a celebrity or an athlete made it kind of out of the hood, quote unquote, they were always expected to give back. Right. Or they'd be called a sellout. 77 00:43:43.100 --> 00:43:53.240 And and the the baseline assumption was that they, in fact, made it out of the hood. Yeah. Yeah, it was. And it wasn't a Tiger Woods thing where he was okay. He was doing okay. You know, that's what I was saying. 78 00:43:53.240 --> 00:44:07.970 And because I used to think that like, well, how come when a white person becomes a movie star or a star athlete, they don't have all this pressure to start giving back to the white community? Right. And to your point is, because a lot of them are coming from middle class environments. And so you think about again, but even. 79 00:44:07.970 --> 00:44:22.740 The ones that don't, your point is still there, though. Even the ones that don't, you know, there's plenty of stars that have come up out of Kentucky, areas that, you know, white areas that aren't well-to-do, that that same pressure doesn't exist. But there's that goes beyond the discussion of the book that we didn't get into that. 80 00:44:22.740 --> 00:44:50.070 But and but I think about someone like, you know, look at any celebrity today, right? Like Jay Z's kids. Right. They're there. Like Jay Z is the one that's the transcendent. He's the one that came out of, you know, lower income kind of situation, made it big. But his kids aren't going to know anything connected to his old life. Right? They're going to live a totally different life. And we could say that with any kind of. Black person in the higher net worth. Let me let. 81 00:44:50.070 --> 00:45:00.600 Me say that like what you're saying, I think is a really interesting point that he's experienced both like firsthand, you know, like whereas his kids will only really experience things from the transcendent. But that's what I'm saying. 82 00:45:00.600 --> 00:45:04.860 Like, think about his kids, especially kids of anyone of that level, right? Nba players. Yeah. 83 00:45:04.860 --> 00:45:06.990 We don't want to personalize it. Yeah, but it's about him. 84 00:45:06.990 --> 00:45:26.100 But but people that are you know, there's a lot of black executives out there that, you know, CFOs, CEOs of large corporations. And the point is, is their kids are growing up going to the top private schools in the big cities and all that with other kids. And a lot of times it's all mixed groups, right? There's Asian kids, white kids, Hispanic kids, black kids. Well, it's mixed. 85 00:45:26.310 --> 00:45:28.970 Racially, but it's not mixed socioeconomic. 86 00:45:28.980 --> 00:46:09.340 But that's my point, is saying that really the conversations about socioeconomics, because Jay-Z's kids are going to have much more in common with their white classmates than they ever will with anyone from Jay-Z's neighborhood who's black, growing up in Brooklyn. But that part of Brooklyn that that Jay-Z grew up in, in the projects. And it's because it's not because it's about race. It's about socioeconomics. And that's what I'm saying, Like the the and that's where, to me, integration work, right, is like that. You now have these generation of black kids growing up that are disconnected from other black kids growing up. And I'm not saying it is good or bad thing, but I'm saying it's the same now as the white community. 87 00:46:09.340 --> 00:46:53.740 Well, but look, that's look at how he look at his framework, his framework. Three of the groups expressly are socioeconomic. You have the abandoned which as you point out, is the ones that are that are you know, that society, as you point out, have kind of abandoned the the underclass. You have the middle class, That's socioeconomic, that's a socioeconomic classification. Then you have the transcendent, which is the the upper upper like beyond well-to-do, but like the upper upper crust, that's socioeconomic, too. The only ones that aren't the economically based, socioeconomic based are the emergent. And that's because they literally are coming from a different place from a racial standpoint than than the than everyone else. You know, whether it be mixed race or coming from another country. 88 00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:59.410 Yeah. Yeah. No, and it's and it's, you know, that's that's why I say that. 89 00:46:59.410 --> 00:47:38.020 Well, I was going to say as we I want, I do want to wrap but so what's your thought on like do you see this as a progression that is ultimately inevitable? Do you see it as a good thing or do you see do you see a risk in the disconnect that's happening where you'll have middle class kids, black middle class kids that don't have the same level of connection with inner city as you know, as it's termed from a black standpoint, you know, when people are, you know, like the code name for black or transcendent, even that transcendence, a lesser number than the middle class is considered to be a majority of black folks. So do you see as that as a negative or risky or what do you see on that? 90 00:47:38.020 --> 00:48:45.640 I mean, I think in general, it's always a positive if you have more people coming out of poverty and more people getting educated and all that. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think that the the risky part is, you know, our greater culture as Americans and I'm including all of us here, right. Black Americans are Americans and black people have shared the history of this country since its founding and before the country has founded I mean, since, you know, the 1607. Right. The 1619 project's called that for a reason because it's been 400 years since the first black people came here. And so and so again, whether you agree with any of that 1619 project, whether you agree, one has to acknowledge and this is where the education comes in, you know, Americans generally aren't educated that one fifth of the revolutionary Army was black. They're not educated about that. They're not educated, that black people have been part of this country's fabric since the beginning, not just slaves, working fields. And so the fact that we don't educate our own ourselves and I'm not talking black people, I'm talking everybody about this makes it difficult then for us to get past some of these stereotypes. 91 00:48:45.640 --> 00:49:39.890 So I'll give you an example that he cites in the book that you know, there's this there's a statistic that's always cited that or a lot of times cited that there's more black men in prison than in universities. And he says here that's not true. There's three times more black people or men, males enrolled in colleges and universities in the United States than in prison. But for some reason we allow that that kind of meme and that and that stereotype to continue. And so it's just little things like that. I think that it's not a bad thing, that it's that the changes are happening. I'm just curious as to how does our society deal with it when like we just talked about over this last decade, right? I mean, it's 2022. This guy wrote the book a couple of years before 2012. We've seen these kind of changes and this backlash, so to speak. So we'll see. Does it continue? Does it not? I don't know. 92 00:49:39.890 --> 00:51:18.510 But well, you know, it's interesting. You kind of talked around my thought, and I'll say it a little more directly. I think it's a good thing when viewed in the context of black America, kind of in an isolated sense, but from a more bigger picture stance. The risk involves America at large because the the as this kind of evolution happens, the risk is that of the backlash as how America is going to deal with this because the America people like to consider America as exceptional. And for various reasons, you know, whether, oh, I live here, so it must be great or, you know, some people have more ideological reasons for that. But what you can say objectively is America is trying to do something in terms of the type of government and the type of setup that is an exception, which would make it exceptional. It trying to have a land where all men are created equal from a historical standpoint is an anomaly. It's it's it's it's a blip. It's not something that history would tell us is going to last so that we have that we're trying to do something that's history has shown us is very difficult in terms of having an inclusive society. Again, we're trying to do it by our documents. You know, not everybody here is trying to do it, but we're trying to do it by the nature of our country in terms of what the Constitution says and all those types of things. The risk is, is that as. Society as this race being an issue that has has really mean not saying anything kind of groundbreaking to say that race is defined America in many respects, in the sense that we had a civil war over slavery. 93 00:51:18.510 --> 00:52:39.070 And if you don't believe it's over slavery, go read the stuff that the secessionists wrote about the Civil War and about why they seceded. You know, read that stuff and they'll tell you what it was about. And that's not the people who not not from the union, from the Confederates, read what they wrote. But either way, I'm not going to belabor that, but race has defined so much of this country that the idea of the idea of integration working and now black folks segmenting in a way like there are transcendent whites, there are middle class whites, there are abandoned whites. You know, people talk about the opioid crisis and how that's devastating communities of abandoned people, you know, and so forth, like black folks becoming more like just America in general could create another pressure point, you know, that could take America down a path that it hasn't dealt with that well before, at least without a lot of pain. So I think that's more of the risk is the bigger picture. But for black Americans, it's definitely good. I mean, like this is now, I think what we would want if we can, but this will be a societal thing to address, not a black thing to address is just how can we do better by the abandoned? How can we not have them as abandoned, whether it be white or black or anything like let's how can we extend more opportunity to people? But again, now we're looking at that not just from the context of blacks, but that's Americans in general, and that's how can we, you know, do a come up with an economic system that still allows for people to excel but also allows for people to to eat? 94 00:52:39.190 --> 00:54:00.100 Well, that's the problem that race has brought in America, is the the the old adage of divide and conquer. You know, I mean, there was a famous story, I mean, maybe not famous for the audience, but for a nerd like me, it's famous Carnegie in the 20s, you know, the blacks and whites and the steel mills were going to come together and unionize in Pennsylvania. And they were all working together, having their union meetings and all that. Guess what happened? Carnegie put a lie through the newspaper he owned that a black man had raped a white woman in a town and they just killed. It just it just killed a whole camaraderie and unit. And that's the best way. That's something that the wealthy in the United States have known from the beginning. Like, think about it. Like we talked about on another program, the the the police do kill less blacks without it being a justified homicide than whites. But instead of but if you make the conversation about police only and you talk about black people, it creates a knee jerk reaction and enough whites to say, we don't even want to discuss this and just shuts down the conversation as opposed to just saying, Hey, why don't we just have all the bad apples that are cops just kind of looked at and taken out. It allows everybody Yeah. 95 00:54:00.110 --> 00:54:00.810 It allows them to. 96 00:54:00.810 --> 00:54:01.700 Only hurt black people. 97 00:54:01.700 --> 00:54:10.950 Yeah. It allows them to avoid accountability by making it one in bringing that issue into it and says, hold up. Why are you guys why are there any unjustified killings or why are there so many period, You know? 98 00:54:10.950 --> 00:55:04.090 And so that's my thing about where where I it's unfortunate with America is that race has always been used to to divide people and create a sense of scarcity. Right? And so instead of just saying there's enough abundance for all groups here, and that's why when you said all men are created equal as the founding of the country, I mean, I wrote down my note right here, the the word men, because remember, 3/5 compromise the idea of slavery. There was a there's a heavy culture that's still out there that we're not people. Right. That we're not men, that we're still beasts. There were antiquated farm tools. And so and there's some people that can't come around to saying, yes, this person here. Who's black and descended from African slaves is the same as me. They're equal and they should have the same rights and all that. And that's what that's that supremacy mindset. And that's not everybody, but it's still enough. We got to deal with it. 99 00:55:04.360 --> 00:55:25.120 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and so that because that's here and because, as you point out, the well of, of kind of fracturing the have nots, you know, that race is has not found a bottom yet, you know, it creates a risk, you know, like when you have this level of when when blacks are becoming more like society itself, you know. 100 00:55:25.390 --> 00:55:31.930 That's what I mean. It's going to create more pushback. And it'll just be interesting to see how the greater American society deals with that. 101 00:55:32.050 --> 00:55:44.890 Yeah, I mean, well, that's what we're going to see. I mean, but ultimately, you can't say that what's happening is bad because of that. I mean, that's kind of one of those things that there's no way to the other side but to go through it, you know? So that's what we got to do. 102 00:55:44.890 --> 00:55:57.730 And I just wonder, will we have a total attempt at throwback or will this energy become like the Irish Republican Army was in Britain just kind of doing terrorist stuff? But they're small and they kind of go away after a couple, you know, a generation or two. 103 00:55:57.800 --> 00:56:56.420 I think we're coming up to in the next ten years or so, we're going to find out the answer. You know, like it's we're coming up on a time. So it's interesting that this book kind of chronicled the what what almost is not fully, but what almost is the impetus for this backlash that we're about to live through and we're going to see does this become a backlash like 1861 or does this become a backlash like the 19 teens and 20s? Does this become a backlash? Like mean like like the 1960s? You know, like so we'll see. But ultimately but I think we would both recommend the book. It was a very interesting book. And again, the the seeing the framework and the explanation that minimum gives you tools to kind of analyze the issue and come up with your own ideas or anything like that. So, I mean, I think that you don't have to lock into the way he laid it out. The concept written about itself has its own is interesting on its own. And then you can either again, by his framework or you can look at it differently. But I think from there, I. 104 00:56:56.420 --> 00:57:16.610 Think we want to just you just but you just put it out there that now we got to do a show in 20 years and like the year 2042 so that we can report on how the last 20 years, how is it going to be about ten years? Yeah, no, we got to wait another ten years so that we can really judge that first ten years. Yeah. So we're going to be in our 60s. So you just solidified a 20 year podcast career. That's cool. 105 00:57:16.610 --> 00:57:29.930 Hey, no promises, man. But that's an interesting point though, because we are looking at this kind of ten, 12 years after it was written. And so we actually can look at the premise and then we can look at how things evolved since then. And you're right, ten years from now, 12 years from now, we'll see how it evolves. 106 00:57:30.080 --> 00:57:33.170 It'll be a full generation almost. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so. 107 00:57:33.170 --> 00:57:42.920 But now we appreciate it, right? For joining us on this episode of Call It Like I See It. Subscribe to the podcast, Rate it, review us, tell us what you think. Share it with a friend. And until next time, I'm James Keys. 108 00:57:43.040 --> 00:57:44.420 I'm Tunde Ogunlana. 109 00:57:44.810 --> 00:57:46.460 All right. And we'll talk to you next time.