Culture Series: “Sapiens,” a Book by Yuval Noah Harari

The following is a computer-generated transcript. WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.120 --> 00:02:29.900 Hello. Welcome to the Call It Like I See It podcast. I'm James Keys and in this episode I'll call it like I see It. We're going to discuss some things we saw in Sapiens, a book by Yuval Harari, which was first published in 2011 and first published in English in 2014. This book, as the subtitle indicates, endeavors to provide a brief history of humankind, you know, which is kind of, you know, the small things, right? But it's no exaggeration as it goes all the way back to the Stone Age. Back before humans could be considered to be an animal of any real significance and tracks the growth and development of human societies and cultures through various revolutions that changed everything and allowed humans to, in large part, master the world around them in ways that no other animal could ever dream of. Joining me today is a man who, when it comes to books, he's all about taking it to the head. Tunde Ogunlana Tunde. You ready to be about it? Not think about it today. Always, man. All right. All right. A good shot of bourbon. Right to the head. There you go. Now we're recording this on April 17th, 2023. And we continue our culture series today by doing some reading Between the Lines and The New York Times. New York Times bestseller Sapiens A Brief History of Humankind, by Yuval Harari, who is an Israeli intellectual historian and professor. In this book, Harari takes a look back at the evolution of humanity over the past 2.5 million years. But specific attention is paid to four key areas. He identifies first being a cognitive revolution occurring around 70,000 years ago. Second, being an agricultural revolution occurring around 12,000 years ago, the third being the unification of humankind, which started taking place around 2000 years ago. And lastly, a science revolution which began around 500 years ago. So we figured we'd touch on each of these briefly and just get some things that stood out. So Tunde just to get us started, What stood out to you in this first section about the cognitive revolution? 2 00:02:30.670 --> 00:03:03.760 Well, that's a loaded question when you're asking me something like that, because I can't just sit on one. Um, but it was it was, first of all, a fascinating book, and that's why I'm glad we're doing it. Um, what stood out to me, though, was certain things. I mean, really, this, this idea of culture was very specific. You know, the I I've never heard it explained this way. That culture is really what began to separate us, Homo sapiens, from a lot of the other types of homo meaning hominid type of species. 3 00:03:03.760 --> 00:03:18.070 Humans. Yeah. Other humans, Homo sapiens being one form of humans that existed during that time frame. If you go up from around 2.5 million years ago, up through I guess you said the last ones were around 10,000 years. Yeah, 10,000 years ago. 4 00:03:18.340 --> 00:03:34.040 That's another thing is that we, you know, Homo sapiens meaning us, our species of hominid, um, spent more time sharing the planet Earth with other hominids than we haven't. That's interesting to. 5 00:03:34.040 --> 00:04:22.070 Think we can use. Like he uses human to describe all members of the homo species, Homo erectus, Homo neanderthalensis all of them. So was human to describe all of them. And that's why the book is called Sapiens, because Homo sapiens. We're that sapiens being wise man. Yeah. Is that that's ours. And just let me jump in real quick, because the thing that stood out to me about this section was the fact that for, as you just said, for most of the time that Homo sapiens were around, there were other humans walking around. That's crazy. And it made me think of like Lord of the Rings, like they talked about the dwarfs that were, you know, on certain islands and so forth that evolved and they're three feet tall and it's like, Oh man, like all these fairy tale type things. Like, Hey, maybe that's oral tradition stuff that there were elves and all this other kind of stuff, different types. Like, you're right, that might have been a slur, like. 6 00:04:22.190 --> 00:04:27.500 About Think about Bigfoot, the Yeti, those kind of things that hairy guys. 7 00:04:27.530 --> 00:05:49.730 You know, something like that. And like, it's like. Yeah. And so, I mean, yeah, like the existence of that. But the thing really, and the cognitive revolution, what he really talks about is 70,000 years ago was around that time period. Basically Homo sapiens started to do more than these other human species. Now that Homo sapiens evolved as far as is known in Eastern Africa, and they had tried, for example, while they were around, they didn't they evolved before, 70,000 years ago, but they had tried to leave Africa, but they got repelled by the Neanderthals who were within the Middle East and in Europe. And and then but the second time around, after the cognitive revolution, human beings had higher capabilities. And so he talks about a lot of those things that started showing up in that time in terms of the artwork, the communication capabilities, the ability to cooperate in larger numbers. And that really is that that that excuse me, the cognitive revolution is what happened in the brains of Homo sapiens that actually allowed them to distinguish themselves amongst all these other humans that were walking the earth and ultimately go everywhere, spread everywhere, and take over the world where because, again, you have human species dating back at least 2.5 million years, but then Homo sapiens go through this revolution, this, this, this, this change 70,000 years ago, and within 60,000 years, all the other humans are gone and Homo sapiens are everywhere, you know? So there's a big change there that happened. 8 00:05:49.730 --> 00:07:03.140 And that's really what the cognitive revolution gets into. And yeah, the two things I'll mention is the language capabilities to be able to talk about things beyond just that are actually concrete, like, Oh, there's the river or something like that. Talk about things in the future or talk about things prospectively. So the language capabilities and along with that, the the ability to create and talk about things that weren't there, myths, you know, which is a a big theme in the book. Yeah. And I mean, and there was a bunch of other stuff that was talked about in the cognitive revolution. But, you know, just to keep moving the, you know, the next big revolution. So the cognitive revolution takes you from 70, like it starts around 70,000 years. And one of the things is when you think about this and as the book lays it out, is that it's not all sequential, so to speak, like it wasn't, you know, Homo erectus. And then they die out and then you get Neanderthals and they die out and you got Denisovans and all that. It's that these things, these were all different evolutions from a common ancestor that just sprouted out at different times and they could exist at the same time. There was a lot of overlap. And so even with the cognitive revolution that's happening in Homo sapiens, conceivably that whatever evolution, that whatever, you know, kind of gene change that happened there, you know, like whatever split that happened there could have happened in any of the human species. 9 00:07:03.140 --> 00:08:22.720 But it happened in in Homo sapiens. But from there, from 70,000 years you have. And one of the things that is interesting about that is that from a capability standpoint, there wasn't as much of a difference in human Homo sapiens as the other humans. But when this cognitive revolution happens, then the abilities from a social and a cultural standpoint of Homo sapiens got much larger. So you go and you take that. Then in 60,000 years, basically after all of these. Keys were living together for 2 million years. You know, you have then or you know, at various points different times, overlapping 60,000 years from this cognitive revolution. Everybody else is gone. And it's just human beings. Just excuse me, just think sapiens. But so then you go there and then around 10,000 or 12, 10,000 BC, so 12,000 years ago. He talks about an agricultural revolution. Now, most people have heard of that. That's the revolution where you people go from exclusively hunting and gathering and start farming, and that can be with grains and so forth. That was a part of it that happened, but also with animals, livestock and things like that. But basically setting up shop in one place and having you creating your own food source instead of relying on gathering that. So just in that area, you know, the agricultural revolution and the transition from hunting and gathering, which was notable to, you. 10 00:08:22.930 --> 00:09:30.670 Know, there was a lot notable here. And I think it's a good it's a good segue way to transition because coming out of the cognitive part. I think what led us to the agricultural revolution was what we finished up on the ability for our brains like. And I think that's what his point was, is the theory is this is where we we diverge from the rest of the pack in a sense, our ability to basically tell stories, gossip, and to get large groups of us, meaning humans, to to move and do things in a coordinated way. And I think once you had the ability for Homo sapiens to do that and no other real living species could do that, it's almost like naturally then we get to agriculture, right? Because once someone because he talks about wheat, you know, the actual plant, the grain, and he talks about how kind of slowly people began to plant it, then people began to realize that how to deal with the seasons. And then you go from Hunter gathering in terms of how humans deal with each other. I found this very interesting that a hunter gatherer pack can just get up and move when they want. 11 00:09:30.850 --> 00:09:41.650 Well, in fact, that was a big part of what they did. Yeah. And and they may have a territory, but they're not they're not setting up shop like they just they're rotating around a territory, you know, constantly. 12 00:09:41.650 --> 00:11:07.100 Yeah. And so what happens is if they come into contact with other humans because it's also interesting, throughout the book, he talks about how many Homo sapiens might have been occupying the earth at a given time. So back then, these days he's talking maybe there was 1 million to 2 million Homo sapiens. So you figure the Earth must have been really wide open and it must have been hard to run into other humans, you know. So with the idea was that one, humans either like ran into each other and there was conflict. The weaker group could kind of just move out the way if they wanted to. But what I found interesting about the agricultural revolution is when he talks about like, okay, once they figured out farming and all this stuff, you got to stay in the same place. So now you start having towns and villages grow next to where the crop was after a while. And then what happened was farmers what he said is farmers began to stay in fight because now you've got something to lose. Now if you've been farming this land for 11 years and now the next band of humans comes over and try and kick you out, you actually got something to fight for now because you're like, Hold on, I'm not a hunter gatherer anymore. I can't just go out there and figure it out. Yeah, I actually have a family. I have a culture now that's here on this land. And that began also the things like religion, wars like it seemed like that's when societies began to really organize in the way that we recognize today and that humans began to like en masse stop being in the hunter gatherer kind of zone. 13 00:11:07.100 --> 00:12:14.840 Well, yeah, it's driven by the food aspect of it. And so to me, the hunter gatherer, their lifestyle was driven by food. And yeah, now and there is evidence that's talked about in terms of them having beliefs. Again, the cognitive revolution is where the idea of religion and beliefs and myths came about, which will play a role. We'll touch on that a little bit later in terms of how big of a role that plays in the ability to organize amongst groups. But the agricultural revolution really seemed to amplify this because it allowed humans to support larger numbers. Now, one of the points that's made in the book, which many people have taken issue or other people think it's a good idea, but it's the idea that for with the agricultural revolution, you were able to keep more people alive. You're able to grow more food than what you need necessarily. It creates surplus and so forth, so forth like that. So there's going to be more people with a hunter gatherer. You can only have so many kids. Kids got to be able to move. The wife can't have another kid until the kid that you just had is able to move, so to speak. So but with agriculture, you can and you can. And if you want a lot of hands to work the fields, you should pop them out every year so you have larger and larger settlements and so forth. 14 00:12:14.840 --> 00:13:11.210 And but the life quality, one of the points that was made is that the life quality was much worse once you get into the agricultural revolution for the average person than it was during during the hunter gatherer period, but you can just have more. So it's an interesting dichotomy of success for the species where everybody's a little we're not we're 99% of the people are a little more miserable, but or a lot more miserable. But ultimately, like you start introducing things like famine, you know, which again, hunter gatherer is. If this area is not producing, you just move to another area. But that the agricultural, you know, once you're agricultural, if if the crop fails, then nobody's eating, you know, and like you can't just go somewhere else and put up a pick up shop there. And so also with things like disease, disease becomes a more prevalent thing because villages and places where you got all these people all in one place is a place where disease can spread more easily versus, you know, where if everybody's moving around, you don't have that as easily. 15 00:13:11.420 --> 00:13:27.730 Yeah, thought that was a very interesting section because again, it showed that evolution to our own societies today. I mean, I never thought of it, but he makes a good point that hunter gatherers actually had excellent diets. You know, he goes through what a hunter gatherer might have eaten in one day, you know, berries. The whole concept. 16 00:13:27.860 --> 00:13:37.160 Of the paleo diet. Yeah. You know, like the paleo people that come. Minutes say, hey, yeah, we're going to have this diet of a hunter gatherer. You know, a bunch of nuts and, you know, things like that. And that's really. 17 00:13:37.160 --> 00:15:21.920 What what he pointed out, though, more so is the variety. Right. And that's what I didn't realize. It's a good observation he makes that hunter gatherers were much healthier than peasants of the Middle Ages because what he kind of compared it to was whether you were a peasant in China or a peasant in Europe. You either consisted, your daily food consisted of either rice for breakfast, rice for lunch, rice for dinner or something that was based on wheat for breakfast, wheat for lunch, wheat for dinner. So what he talked about was the agricultural revolution and farming. Like you said, it's a very interesting concept. It proliferated humans and Homo sapiens. So it made it made it allowed us to make more of ourselves. Right. And replicate ourselves more, but at the same time gave us a diminished version of health and life. Because now to feed all these people, you have grains like rice or wheat, but they're missing a lot of nutrients. Yeah, And that's where, like you're saying about the disease, that's what I got out of it is not just the close proximity of people. It was also the fact that we were basically becoming malnourished without realizing it as, as, as as a species in a sense. And also then what I found interesting, too, is where they find, I don't want to say the fossil record because it's not dinosaurs. We're not going back that far. But finding and kind of, I guess the archeological digs and sites and looking at people's bones, This is the first time you started to see injuries on humans like slip discs in the back, um, you know, torn tendons and ligaments because before a hunter gatherers like our bodies built to just be limber and move and climb trees and do all that, but we're not really built to plow on a, you know, have a plow behind an oxen for six hours a day like that creates different stresses on pressure points in the body. 18 00:15:21.920 --> 00:15:28.760 So just like we're evolved to hunt her and to hunt and gather, but they weren't evolved to to to farm, so to speak. 19 00:15:28.760 --> 00:16:08.090 Yeah. So I found that interesting. And then the part to Segway and I'll throw it back to you here, is getting back to the idea with like we now on this progression of, well, if humans had a higher brain capacity that could develop things like gossip and myths and tell stories in order to get groups bigger than a certain amount to cooperate, where you could have ten, 20,000 people in a town and all be on the same page. That created kind of this this the imagined orders and taking it to something like the first written order that we've seen about how to classify people within a society was Hammurabi's Code. So I want to throw it back to you. Yeah. To to speak on that. Yeah. 20 00:16:08.090 --> 00:17:17.510 Well, I mean, and the thing there's two things I want to mention here that really stood out as far as once you get to this point, it becomes clear in the book. One is the stacking nature of these revolutions that he talks about. And so the cognitive revolution allows human beings to distinguish themselves from the other or excuse me, allows Homo sapiens to distinguish themselves from other human beings as far as the capabilities. And that was that's not genetically driven as much as there was a mutation, but it wasn't like it wasn't the type of thing that occurred over millions of years. Some slow thing, like we looked the same human, they say Homo sapiens from before the cognitive revolution looked the same. If one day I think he used the example. If one showed up in the morgue from 80,000 years ago pre cognitive revolution, you wouldn't think anything of it if a homo sapien showed up, you know, from 80,000 years ago. It looks the same as us acts the same, but just didn't have that switch, that mutation that allows the brain to function in a more abstract way in a sense. So you have the cognitive revolution which allows for greater cooperation amongst larger groups. Then the agriculture revolution allows you to create even larger groups, you know, not just a couple of bands together or a couple tribes together, but like 10,000 people in a city or so forth. 21 00:17:17.510 --> 00:18:25.630 So the agricultural revolution builds on the capability that was created by the cognitive revolution in that, okay, well, we can keep order, we can establish a lot of collaboration and flexibility, flexible collaboration amongst people, amongst human beings, and even larger numbers. We're going to push that to the limit because of the capability that was given by the cognitive revolution. And the thing is, is when you deal with that or when you when you look at that. The when you put those two together, it puts human beings on a track that opens up the things we're going to talk about in the future, so to speak. And the other thing that I wanted to talk about was the way that the agricultural revolution, like he questions in many points and I don't know if it's in jest or seriously, but just how the whether the agricultural revolution was a raw deal for people, you know because again, like you have you the species is doing great, but the individuals are, you know, not so much necessarily and, you know, and like, oh, well, is it a double cross? But he talks about how you get there and how it's a series of small steps and you can never go back once you get to those small steps. He calls it the luxury trap. Yeah. And it was very interesting from the standpoint like you go from. Oh, okay. Well, people probably didn't start planting on purpose. 22 00:18:25.630 --> 00:19:32.690 They were they probably carried weeds, wheat, wheat, wheat seeds back with them along the road and then start having you're dropping some seeds as you go. And then wheat. Wheat starts growing on the side of the road and then eventually somebody is going to put it together like, well, hold on. We carrying these things back and we they start growing where we carry them. Then maybe we'll just put them down. Let's just put them all down right here and see what grows then. And so the incremental piece of that, as you go incrementally though, and start requiring that you lose you once you get to too many 2 or 3 steps along the pathway to the agricultural revolution, that society right there can't go back. And then once the society next to you starts doing agricultural, they're they're going to have so many people that they're either going to wipe you out or you're going to have to start doing agricultural stuff to to get as many people as they have. So it's interesting how the forces kind of pushed everyone along this way versus, you know, it's not like something that you can say with full foresight. I want to do this because this is what will happen. It's just you're putting out little fires each way and you're stepping and then next thing you look up, you're not a hunter and gatherer anymore and you're a farmer. 23 00:19:32.990 --> 00:19:56.960 Yeah, I think the luxury trap is is definitely something real. Because, I mean, think about it. We can see it in our lives, right? I mean, look at First world versus third world countries. Yeah. Those of us in first world countries have luxury traps like air conditioning. I mean, you know, that's not something that humanity had forever. But now as an American, we live in South Florida where it's, you know, a thousand degrees in the summer. Ask someone down here to just roll around their car and be in their house without air conditioning. 24 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:06.140 Yeah. And basically the thing is, is before you have these type of optional things, you recognize them as optional. But once you have them, you consider them as necessity. 25 00:20:06.380 --> 00:20:34.770 Well, that's why I'm saying that it's a great point. You make this term of stacking on top of itself, because you're right. I mean, think about early farmers, you know, just of, you know, eight, 10,000 years ago, once that system and this is where we go back to this idea of imagined order, right? This this system of farming, which then allowed for larger towns and villages and cities. I mean, think about it. Just like us living today in our bigger cities, right? Who wants to go be a hunter gatherer right now? 26 00:20:35.810 --> 00:20:42.050 Well, but more so even if you. And that's one thing. Who could contemplate it, right? Who could Who could actually do it? 27 00:20:42.170 --> 00:20:58.460 I mean, yeah, because we've lost a lot of the. Yeah, we've lost a lot of the knowledge. But that's what I mean, like think about the Egyptians when they were building the pyramids 5000 years ago. Back then you could ask who wants to go from this to being a hunter gatherer? And nobody would have raised their hand back then because they were trapped in their own luxuries at the time. So that's why. 28 00:20:58.490 --> 00:20:59.360 Whatever their luxuries. 29 00:20:59.360 --> 00:21:06.830 Were. Correct. That's what I mean. That's why this is a fascinating kind of arc of time of of the kind of Homo sapiens history, because illustrate. 30 00:21:06.830 --> 00:21:40.830 That for you, because one of the examples he gave, which was a very good example, is the idea of a home of a house. Like as a hunter gatherer, there's no home, you know, like there's no personal space like that. Like you just you got you got your band of people and y'all, you guys just roll, you know? It's just. All right, here we go. We're here for a little bit. But once you had the agricultural revolution, the the idea of a home or my room or things like that became more like just a possessive type of thing. And that's where you get into the idea of people didn't just people started then building fortifications. People started building defensive type things because it's like, look, I'm not leaving if somebody shows up. 31 00:21:40.980 --> 00:22:32.100 And there's two things actually, I'm really glad you brought that up because just to reverse a bit, it also he he discussed and not to get into, but I think it's important he discussed during this change the change of relationship between humans and nature. Right. When it was hunter gatherer, humans relied on nature and were kind of more part of nature where during the agricultural revolution it was like, oh, well, if we just, you know, have the fattest, slowest sheep and figure out how to make those, then we'll dominate the sheep and the chickens and this. And then he gets to the point of how many? Because, you know, this was one big thing for me too, was we hear about things like how we're impacting the earth today and climate and all this and extinction of animals like in the last hundred years. He paints a good picture that humans have been extincting animals for tens of thousands of years. 32 00:22:32.100 --> 00:22:36.870 Including potentially other humans. Yeah, the other the other. The other beginning. Yeah. 33 00:22:36.920 --> 00:23:09.620 And so, and so I found that interesting. And then just to I know we want to move to the next topic. What, what comes out of to me, this agricultural period, like we mentioned, the Code of Hammurabi was the first time that humans were segmented into a value, at least that we find in writing we know historically. Yeah. So that was there were three hierarchies. There was the nobility, the commoner and a slave. Yeah. And they had different values. If you were to heal someone's slave, you had to pay X amount versus if you killed a commoner or versus if you killed a noble person. 34 00:23:09.620 --> 00:24:46.200 And and also property. Remember, if you killed somebody's daughter, you wouldn't have to like nothing happened. Your daughter would have to get killed, you know, so to speak. So like your, your your wife or your slaves or your your kids were more of a property of the the main person than like, just on their own, so to speak, which was, you know, but and I think Well, let me let me. Because I want to keep us moving. But the thing about this that I think was the biggest takeaway is that so often when we deal with our our modern struggles and, you know, what should our laws be? What should our rules be? And the book gets on this in terms of the idea of creating myths, you know, like but what all it all boils down to is when you have a lot of people together, there have to be mechanisms in place to maintain order. And so what the reason the Code of Hammurabi was so significant is because we could see, okay, this is how they chose this is Hammurabi declared that the gods, based on what the gods is, say there's three classes of people and each of them have to they this is how these type of people have to treat these type of people. This is how this type of person has to treat this type of person. And so it created a set of rules that everyone could understand where they stood and fought and fit into. And it wasn't necessarily fair, you know, for sure, but it it would allow there to be an order. It say, okay, everybody, this is how you need to behave. And so a lot of times when we're dealing with from a societal standpoint, these types of restrictions, these types of rules and so forth, it is about creating order now. Now we look at it in a different way in terms of, you know, rights and things like that. But those are just a different way, a different approach to try to create the order. But we're going to get into that. I think we're going to get to that. 35 00:24:46.560 --> 00:24:51.150 But I was going to say that it's really just a concept called imagined order, basically. 36 00:24:51.260 --> 00:24:52.290 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no. 37 00:24:52.560 --> 00:24:55.620 Different than the natural order, like gravity and you know. Yeah, yeah. 38 00:24:55.620 --> 00:25:08.610 You use you create an imagined order based on. And this is where the idea of creating fictions and myth you create fictions and myths in order to justify legitimize an imagined order, which is a really big. That's what I mean, that. 39 00:25:08.790 --> 00:25:13.140 That to me was the big part of the cognitive. Like that's really when we just got. 40 00:25:13.260 --> 00:26:53.910 The cognitive revolution enabled that, so to speak. And they were still they were still cooperation on, on slightly larger scale. But the this is what I mean by the stacking. The agricultural revolution took that and said, okay, no, no, no, you can have 500 people under the cognitive revolution work together, but before agriculture, now you can have 5000 or 10,000 people with the agricultural revolution because you ramped up the numbers. And you apply the same concepts to larger numbers. So it again set humankind on a different course where it's it's continuing to ramp up. So. And along that line, you know, the next section he went into was kind of and this one will keep a little more brief was just kind of the unification of humankind. And what his point there was and I know we talked about this offline is just how if you go back a certain amount of time and like you said, you know, a million people on the earth or, you know, or a million humans on the earth or maybe even more than that. But we know how big the earth is and people are spread out all over it. Now, people are going to be more concentrated in areas that are more fertile and so forth, for sure, you know, versus Siberia or something like that. But nonetheless, when you look at it and you're like, okay, these were all their own universe, basically. There was no interaction on a large scale over long distances. There was some trade. And so even go back to to before the the humans were exclusively here. There's evidence that people traded. Humans traded, you know, just basic stuff type of thing. But then humans really ramped that up. But. The idea that since for about 2000 years now, humans have become more and more intertwined, cultures have become more and more intertwined with each other and inter reliant on each other is very interesting. So mean in terms of the unification, What what did you take from that or what what did you find significant about that? 41 00:26:54.770 --> 00:27:15.900 I thought that was pretty fascinating, actually, because. When you really contemplate it, it makes sense. And let me let me peel it back here. So there's a couple things. Number one and Segwaying from the last one to this one, one thing that gets an honorable mention that I think is necessary just to state is writing things like just the ability to to document things. Yeah. 42 00:27:15.900 --> 00:27:18.930 And you can keep much more information basically than posterity. 43 00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:26.430 Yeah. And to be able to to to to you know the harvest from three years ago you can pull it up and find out what it was, so on and so forth. So I think all that. 44 00:27:26.430 --> 00:27:48.750 It's not just writing. Remember what the key was was because they could write, you know, like the writing stuff went back a long way. But the alphabets and the more advanced ways to keep track of things using mathematics. Yeah, exactly where you can use symbols to represent things. And then that symbol can represent things over and over and over again. And then it becomes a shorthand. It allows you to build greater concepts into your writing. 45 00:27:48.750 --> 00:28:10.330 Correct? And that's why I wanted to bring it up because it's like, okay, that's what leads to the unification over the long period of time. Because to your point, how do because they get to this? Like once you have a certain amount of people in a group, you become you begin to have specialists. And he talks about like like let's say a cobbler or someone who makes shoes, Right. Or financial and, and Yeah, well, exactly. 46 00:28:10.600 --> 00:28:11.410 No, but. Or an. 47 00:28:11.410 --> 00:28:22.120 Attorney. But at some point the barter system can't work anymore. Right. That that that that's not a way for you know a group of 100,000 to to to constantly operate. 48 00:28:22.120 --> 00:28:27.330 So to your point some some point very quickly like it doesn't take that long for you to hit that point. 49 00:28:27.760 --> 00:29:03.100 So the idea of things like, um, let's say money and let's just say just for an easy example, the concept of gold, right? That that's what he talks about, that by the time Columbus found the Americas in 1492, 90% of the world was already unified, at least with the idea of currency, meaning the Afro Eurasian kind of continent, the whole big smorgasbord of Europe, the Middle East, Asia and Africa had already settled on certain things like gold would be a currency. 50 00:29:03.100 --> 00:29:20.680 So they traded enough that, you know, like they it became understood like, okay, well, these people accept this. And and he talked about how once one group accepts things as far as currency then it and that's why it's instantly will be or not instantly but it'll become something that's of value in other places as long as there's trade between those two places. 51 00:29:20.680 --> 00:29:37.030 But it's fascinating because he makes a interesting kind of verbal point that the reason why people accept money is because everyone else accepts money. Yeah, One of the few things I think that stood the test of time that everybody agrees to this value, you know, that's why they me gold is fascinating in that way. And so what happened his. 52 00:29:37.070 --> 00:30:24.340 Point to make that point though, because the thing was is that initially when you had exchanges that weren't direct barter, the concept of money, it was about things that had inherent value. Also like the first currency, so to speak, that they have in the record was like a Bali, Bali, you know. And so but Bali has value, you know, independent, you can eat it, you know, whereas the, the but it also is it's hard to store, hard to transport. So as they eventually moved to the precious metals, then that doesn't have the intrinsic value. But once if everyone can agree on that of a value, then you'll if other people agree on it to your point, then you'll accept it because I know I can give it to them and they'll give me value for it. You know, it's almost it's a bet on everyone else's belief, regardless of whether you believe or not. Yeah. 53 00:30:24.340 --> 00:30:39.670 No. And so think about, like you say, with the unification. So back to this concept, right? If if what he's saying is accurate, that by 1492, 90% of the world had already been unified in terms of accepting a certain type of currency. Right. For barter, then you say. 54 00:30:39.700 --> 00:30:41.380 Gold basically, and you get stuff. 55 00:30:41.380 --> 00:30:59.470 Yeah. Yeah. And so really what he was saying was, you know, the Native Americans and the North and South American continent, the Australian Aboriginals and the Polynesian Islanders out there like Hawaii and the Pacific Islands, they were the only Homo sapiens that weren't on this train. So they were only 10% of the global population roughly at that time. 56 00:30:59.470 --> 00:31:05.900 Well, and it wasn't some unique thing reason why it was because they weren't a part of these. They weren't in contact with them. 57 00:31:05.940 --> 00:31:43.530 It goes back to your point about a galaxy, which is that's one still. You know, we didn't have 8 billion people on airplanes and, you know, all this and Internet. So the world hadn't been connected yet. And that's why the concept of unification of humankind, the way he explains it, it actually makes a lot of sense because then what we could say is because I've thought about this, I mean, think about Europe as a continent right now compared to what Europe was 2 or 3000 years ago when you had the Druids, the Goths, the Visigoths, you know, the German Germanic tribes that worshiped nature. You had the Romans, you had the Greeks, you had you don't have all that diversity in Europe anymore. You have, well. 58 00:31:44.100 --> 00:31:45.780 All these people. And they were all very different. 59 00:31:45.780 --> 00:33:10.260 Yeah, that's what I mean. And they all were extremely different groups culturally. Like you probably couldn't recognize someone from Ireland at all culturally compared to someone from Germany. Today, the European Union is pretty similar in terms of I mean, they speak different languages. All that, but it's mostly Christian or, you know, Protestant or Catholic. They generally share just, you know, a few languages. It's not it's not, you know, thousands of different languages. And if you look at that's happening in other spheres, it's happening in Asia, in in in Africa, and it's happened in the Americas. And he brings a good example of the British colonization of India, how different India was when the British got there. And even though the British have been gone now for 70, 80 years, they still use British law, they still use the British or Western system of currency. They still use a lot of things have held over. So with this concept of unification to me is real, that the more we interact and the more we come together, the more similar we become culturally. And we're, you know, I'm sure it's just like the hunter gatherer versus the farming life. There's pros and cons to both, right? So so part of the the con might be we're losing a lot of beautiful diversity of human culture and the pro might be as he gets into later in the book maybe less violent conflicts between human groups because we have much more similarity. 60 00:33:10.260 --> 00:34:27.540 Yeah. So and I mean I think the way it's presented in the book, which this is dangerous, I don't know if this is if this is true, but almost that it's an inevitability. There's three factors, three primary factors he points to that lead to unification when somebody is contacted. Basically these factors pressure, unification, whether it happens all with all three or just any of them, and that's money, empire and religion, you know, so either it's the money thing and trade that is going to to cause a unification. It is the that somebody is coming in with a gun and or a knife or, you know, a spear or whatever and saying, hey, you're going to start obeying us and doing things that we say or religion, which can be even more effective than either of the two. If you can get people to believe in whatever you believe, they'll want to adopt the things that you do. And so it really does in many respects, come down to who's pushing, what's being pushed and how hard it's being pushed in. A lot of these instances, like where the money won in our culture right now in the United States here, we might look at that as the most innocuous. In many ways, though, that could be very you know, that could be a very kind of deceptive way to to to go in and change people go in and make people less moral, so to speak. 61 00:34:27.570 --> 00:35:35.730 The discussion on money where, you know, should should we sell our ancestral lands to to some outsider? Well, if without outside of the concept of money, it's like, no, that stuff is sacred. That stuff is important. Once you have the concept of money, it's like, well, how much are you talking? You know, like everything becomes for sale. So it's not always that. It's all for the better. Objectively there. As you said, there's pros and cons to all this, but just the inevitability, I think, of whether this is inevitable, of a merging of cultures, all of these things that developed independently, all these different ways of doing things. And as as they come in contact, they kind of they, they kind of merge together, you know, in a sense, and they become what some might some features may be more dominant than others. But nonetheless, whether that's inevitable, I think is a really interesting concept. I'll just say like that. And I think the jury's still out, but the book makes a pretty good case that the way certain things developed makes them somewhat like it's not it's not inherently all religion that would that would lead to this. But certain religions if you're a proselytizing religion then yeah that's that is about going in and making everybody like you. And if you're good at that or if you're effective at that, then that's going to do that. 62 00:35:36.260 --> 00:36:19.520 Yeah. No, I think look, the evidence has shown, I mean, even if we'd say the last 20 years, I mean, just the Internet has has unified humanity more from a cultural standpoint, right? I mean, look what's going on. Just to be contemporary. It's middle of 2023, right? This idea of the Iranian women really protesting this, this hijab and all that, you know, the headscarf, that might not have happened if not for the Internet, but that they'll probably win that battle in the long run. And that will make Iran look more like the rest of the world. You know, and these are things that might not have happened without. That's why I like the term You put the stacking of all this stuff from cultural and technological. Um, um, uh, history. Yeah. So. 63 00:36:19.520 --> 00:37:57.960 Well, and I want to get to the last piece though, because this one's very interesting. I don't want to run out of time on it. And that's the, the science revolution. And that is, that's starting around 500 years ago, starting at. He points to the the, the what he's pointing to the scientific revolution starting in Europe which he points out Europe, not much was happening in most of the world in Western Europe for pretty much all of humankind until this scientific revolution where it became becomes the center of everything and where it starts. And I'm going to get to you in one second, but where it starts, he really because we both pointed to this as like, hey, you got to start. Here is what he calls the discovery of ignorance. And it's a really interesting concept because it's talking about how up until that point, human cultures believed that they understood and knew all that was important to know or all that was knowable. You know, like you would look at the religious traditions, the religious traditions don't leave a lot of, hey, we don't know, but we'll figure that out eventually. There's not a lot of that kind of discussion going on. Yeah. And so but with in this science revolution, where it starts is the idea of, hey, we don't know all of this stuff and what the stuff we do think we know we may learn should be modified or changed at some point. And there's a flexibility in thinking there that promotes and encourages further learning, more learning and more exploration, more study, which leads to greater and greater, uh, greater and greater knowledge, greater and greater understanding and so forth. And so, and that has, you know, for the past 500 years taken humankind to, to again a place where no animal, no previous, you know, pre homo sapien human being could ever have imagined, you know, So I mean, what your biggest takeaway on on science and science revolution. 64 00:37:58.080 --> 00:38:58.440 I mean there's several which I'll get into, but I'll start there with you because that was a good takeaway with Columbus discovering the Americas as part of this journey for the European influence here. Because what it that was a fascinating thing that the kind of modern scientific method that, you know Isaac Newton type of thing um, really the difference between that and I guess most other forms of of observation of the world, right, other than religion and other things is this, this, this, this acknowledgment of ignorance that we don't know something. So we're going to go try and research and use evidence based to, to figure it out. And that's why he even he made it did a good job of saying things like the theory of relativity and the theory of evolution are still theories. Yeah. Like scientists prepared with enough evidence that they may someone may come with a different answer one day, and science will have to acknowledge that's encouraged. 65 00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:12.570 I mean even like the the current thing in terms of science right now with, you know, just relativity and so forth and how that stuff breaks down in quantum, like we're still waiting on someone to to bridge that gap. Like, hey, we have this gap of information. We think we understand the relativity. 66 00:39:12.630 --> 00:39:32.820 That was actually an important part because he mentions Newton and how Isaac Newton's physical laws of physics stood for several hundred years until 1905, when a 26 year old named Albert Einstein came up with a theory of relativity. And that allowed science to say, okay, well, now here's the new set of, like you said, the quantum world doesn't work like the macro world. 67 00:39:32.820 --> 00:40:08.490 Well, no, no, no. But that's the thing is like and that's the key. Like the relativity holds up on the regular world, but the it doesn't hold up in the quantum world. And so that's and so right now, it's like there's an open call and science world for somebody to come in and bridge the gap between theory of relativity and quantum theory. But here's that's an example that just like to tie that up. That's an example of the ignorance, the embrace of the fact that we don't know. Like we just don't know. We don't have the answer to that yet. But it's not saying that it's not important or we got to study scripture because the answer is in Scripture, it's like, all right, we'll just keep looking for it and eventually we'll find it. 68 00:40:08.490 --> 00:41:12.360 Well, no, and that's a great point you made, because he he asked that point of how come the Chinese or the Ottoman Empire didn't blossom? Like he goes, how come when the Europeans discovered the Americas, the Japanese, the Chinese and the and the Ottomans weren't all they're trying to send sailing ships to? And it desperately talks about that culture between, to your point, the idea of proselytizing Christianity, being a proselytizing type religion, and then this idea of this mix, the European mix of. Capitalism and scientific endeavor. And so and so that's what I want to go right back to Columbus real quick to finish that thought, because to me, he said something here that was very important because I didn't know this. He said Columbus himself didn't believe that he discovered something new. He went to his grave still trying to be convinced that he found just some islands off East India. Yeah, and that also his generation. But it was America. Amerigo Vespucci, America, who's the one. So the younger people from that era were like, No, no, no, there's something new out there. And what it allowed was this is to me was key. 69 00:41:12.720 --> 00:42:13.140 The Europeans became the first because of the discovery of the Americas. They really were able to say, okay, we might have to take this current observation and take that kind of more serious now than these cultural traditions, because they could no longer wrestle with the fact that this whole literally half of the planet Earth had been there for all this time and no one knew about it. It wasn't in scripture. It was the first time that the European nobility and leadership was able to say, okay, we can acknowledge something does exist that's not in Scripture. And I think that's the point that I thought of as even we're talking here that before this scientific method and way of of embracing ignorance, religion, it was necessary from a hierarchical standpoint in societies that you don't question the religious kind of doctrine, right? Yeah. Because if you let people start saying, well, I don't think it's God that makes the rain happen, it's something else. Everybody starts questioning stuff and then you don't have order. Yeah. 70 00:42:13.140 --> 00:42:35.820 So, I mean, if there's no God, then, you know, I'll just, you know, I'll just go around taking your money, you know, type of thing, or I'll just do like you. So a lot of the and that's, that gets back to that point of how a lot of these things are in place. You know how like people look at them as restrictive? And I'm not defending them, You know, I'm just yeah, it's just a lot of it is about is to preserve or preserve imagined order. This is how things should be. So this is everybody act like this and then we all can survive, so to speak. 71 00:42:35.820 --> 00:42:57.030 Correct. And so that's what I'm saying, that and again, think about the technology of better sailing ships, the technology of things like telescopes. So Galileo could see in the sky and say, okay, well, I'm observing that the earth is rotating around the sun and all the other planets are, too. Here's how I'm not saying that because I'm going against the doctrine. I'm just saying that because I'm looking and here you look, too. 72 00:42:57.030 --> 00:43:02.400 And so after all of those things are going around Jupiter. Yeah, they're not going around Earth. 73 00:43:02.430 --> 00:43:34.500 Exactly. So, so that's what I think the last two, 300 years of the kind of modern science embracing ignorance has been through the technological advances. Just like we talked about with Einstein. We can continue to observe things and bring other people along to observe it and say, Look, no one's trying to disrespect your tradition, but we need to be able to move off of what we're seeing. And that to me, that's why to me, that's this embracing of ignorance. It's almost like a form of humility, I guess, for me, really. I mean, it's. 74 00:43:34.740 --> 00:44:32.730 You know, and that's it. It does, though. And that's the interesting thing about it. And we can see that tension in our society is that when there isn't some person that has all the answers, that tells everybody how to live, you have to come up with other ways to organize your society, other myths, so to speak, to create, to say, okay, well, we're all going to believe in this. This allows us to organize our society. It can't just be, hey, yeah, you know, the king, you know that that God wanted him there. So, you know, we all just got to listen to him and whatever he says, like, that kind of stuff doesn't fly as easily when there's all this stuff that we can see that that person doesn't know. But you mentioned it and I want to get to it is the it's very interesting. We live in a capitalist society. And, you know, people can talk about the pros and cons of capitalism as much as they want. And, you know, I find it to be useful, but I think it has. There are areas you need to be concerned about. You don't stick your head in the sand, but you just got to try to gear it in a way that serves the interests of the society, not just the interests of the people who are doing it, but everybody to a certain degree. 75 00:44:32.910 --> 00:45:36.510 But the incentive structure is helpful. And that incentive structure, that capitalism creates, how the discussion on how that is really what drove the scientific revolution forward in that this constant mindset of growth, like we need to take what we have and not let's just not build a church or let's just not make a painting, let's take what we have and let's try to use it to create something that can make more. And then we'll use that to create more. And so or we discovered some land. Hey, you know what? Let's take the money. Let's not just say, Hey, we discovered it. We're good to go. Let's take the money we got from that and go discover something else. And then let's go like. And so this this kind of capitalist mindset of growth is what really supercharged the scientific revolution in Western Europe, because that's the key piece that you you mentioned China and the Ottomans. Around that time period, everybody had about the same technology. Gunpowder was in China way before everywhere else. You know, being able to navigate the seas, that stuff was around pretty well. Now, they got better at it in Europe as they did it more because they were trying to grow. They were all about the growth. 76 00:45:36.520 --> 00:46:37.080 But just that to me, that was very interesting to see how and because we see it now, I mean, capitalism does play on the the way humans operate and it creates an incentive structure that does fire humans up, you know, like there's just there's no way to argue that. But and that has a good side and a bad side. But nonetheless, to see how that really took the scientific revolution and put it on steroids is amazing. And the last thing I'll say, I'll kick it back to you is just and then you look at it in terms of how this is the final stack that we're at right now, Whereas, okay, we got the ability to think a certain way and communicate a certain way, which allows us to communicate better or excuse me, coordinate with each other better. The term he used in the book was flexibly cooperate with one another in large numbers. You know, bees can cooperate in large numbers, but not flexibly. Wolves can cooperate flexibly, but not in large numbers. Stack that with the agricultural revolution, we get more people and then we put everybody together with this unification and then the scientific revolution where we pursue growth. And we just that's how you blow the roof off, so to speak. 77 00:46:37.090 --> 00:47:19.330 Yeah. No, well, I got to back up a bit because you went down a couple of roads that I'll be going back down, but let me peel it back because now this is great because that's what I got out of it too. One of the things just to add for because it was kind of like he talked about the joint stock company, the Dutch East India Company, this kind of this new mode of capitalism, which to your point. It. There's something about capitalism that also mirrors a lot of the human spirit and meaning. The idea that because remember before things like the ability to invest in a joint stock company, the only way you could grow your wealth really was to be born into nobility, you know? Yeah, but. 78 00:47:19.330 --> 00:47:38.580 This talks about that because without the ability to have limited liability, companies starting a business entailed the risk of ruin, the risk of some somebody you know, you don't deliver on something. And because there's no limit on your personal liability, you might have to sell your kids into slavery. Yeah. You know, so it's like starting a business if that's what's on the table. 79 00:47:38.590 --> 00:49:13.150 But also think about, let's say by the 1800s or so, by the time this stuff was pretty mature in Europe and then other regions of the world as well, it was also the first time that, you know, entrepreneurs, this whole class of of what we think of as normal now guys like me and you that just want to start something that could actually develop because before that to your point, had to be a blacksmith or a guy doing something with horses. But I'm taking a huge risk if it doesn't work out. Yeah, but but the idea and that goes back to our imagined orders. The law matured in a way, to your point about limited liability companies and all that private ownership of capital and all that kind of stuff. So I think what you have is this, this, this new concept of capitalism, which can capture something in the human spirit and and lead to more discovery and investment in these things. But then here's what I found fascinating. I never saw this before this book. And now I can appreciate because I'm not that religious myself personally. So a lot of the family values stuff and politics sometimes I would just think, okay, that's how religious people, you know, think more and all this stuff and that's okay. I'm not against it. But. I never And this whole fear of the state, you know, and all that, I just never was like into that. Right? Like, okay, I get it. Everybody's got a different way of looking at stuff. But he really is eloquent in the way that he says that in our modern lives, the state in the last hundred, 200 years or so has really the state and the markets have really begun to have really replaced family and community. Yeah. The way he explained it, the. 80 00:49:13.150 --> 00:49:16.030 Role of fulfilling the needs of our of our of our lives. Yeah. 81 00:49:16.030 --> 00:50:38.260 So we'll get into that in a second. And that's why the way he explained it is the first time I could see from a different lens like, okay, now I see where that crowd that talks about kind of some of these old values that have been lost in today's world that they're on to something, right? And and maybe this is why a lot of people are depressed and lonely and all that in today's world, because we've evolved to really have close community. And that's what I said. The point he did was made was very well, which was something like like if you were ill in your family back, you know, a thousand years ago or 500 years ago, your family took care of you. If you know, your dinner table broke and your in your hut or in your in your village, you know, in your in your home, it was your family who helped you repair it. If you're a woman. Yeah. If you're a woman that had a baby, it was your family and and the local women that helped you deliver the baby. And he gets into all this stuff and he says, okay, so now if you're sick, you've got a health insurance plan that may or may not be offered by the state, but it's the system the market is taking care of you. Then if you break something, you got someone coming over to fix it who you don't even know who's a service person. And you know, he just goes down the list. And it made me realize like, yeah, that's true. Like. We actually have outsourced a lot of that from. The communal and the close knit two. Now we do rely on the state. Impersonal. Yeah. Well, let me. 82 00:50:38.260 --> 00:51:41.240 Say because I mean, I think it's a good point. It's a fascinating. Here's the thing. But but here's the thing. And I don't know if you saw this mirror, but it's a mirror image, though, of the people who would say, let's go back to Hunter gathering. Yeah. People the state in the market didn't didn't grow to fulfill those functions because of some grand plot. It was because the way societies evolved, the way cultures had evolved, families were no longer equipped necessarily to do that. The trade off is, okay, well, if you get sick or, you know, your parent gets sick, then the state and the market are going to help you take care of them because the expectation of you from a capitalist standpoint, we still need growth. We can't have you just go offline. Again, from a capitalist standpoint, this isn't some master plan. This is the way these are the systems that we've bought into. And so it's it's similar to the luxury trap. If we're going to say then growth is about what is going to be what we're about, then ultimately things are going to spring up to say, okay, hey, you can put more of your time here and we'll take care of this and we're going to take care of that. 83 00:51:41.240 --> 00:52:36.350 And so it's not I think that they're on to something in terms of, hey, we need to look at this kind of stuff. But I think looking at it or the approach of let's just go back to when this stuff dominated is no different than someone saying, let's just go back to hunting and gathering because people were healthier then. And so let's all like the way that society has evolved since then, has closed the door on certain the ability to do certain things where it hasn't. We should try to work with that. But also, I think most important on that, which I don't find to be the focus a lot of times, which I think should be, is an analysis on what we've lost through all that, not just, yes, we want families to be more involved, but here are the things that we lost. Can we still try to have families provide for these or communities provide for these? If so, how are we joining service organizations in our community to help that or, you know, are we doing other stuff that may not be directly helpful? So I mean, I think yeah, well, that's from there. 84 00:52:36.350 --> 00:52:56.510 But I think just to finish that thought real quick, that's very good. I think that's where today's world, you see people being anxious about things like the loss of prominence of religion, let's say, in modern life, because they think a lot of people feel that church or synagogue or mosque is where you could get that in the modern world. And I think. Well, but but. 85 00:52:56.510 --> 00:53:02.480 It's bigger than that, though, because remember, those things are also sources of social order. And so I know that's. 86 00:53:02.480 --> 00:53:17.990 Why it's a dynamic. And that's where I'll just to finish up because I know you want to get out is the other part of that that I think is along the lines of what you said. But but it's but it's equal as to why we're here is also specialization because to your point. Exactly. 87 00:53:18.180 --> 00:53:19.940 Like no one. No, we can't go back. Yeah. 88 00:53:20.060 --> 00:53:50.750 Like let's say I broke my leg or let's say more than a cold, like something serious or I've got like a kidney stones or some abdominal issue. Right Back in the days, you know, all grandmas and and if somebody in the village was skilled at kind of looking at the person and saying, okay, they're sick or this and that, today we know that there's such specialties that not only do I want to go see a doctor, but the doctor better also have a team because there might I might need an MRI, I might have this equipment. That's what I'm saying. And like, we. 89 00:53:50.750 --> 00:53:55.190 Can't have just all the communities, all your family just can't walk around with the MRI machine. Correct. 90 00:53:55.190 --> 00:54:06.110 And also, because I got to go to work and I do something else and my wife does something else and my mom does something else. So none of them are equipped to look at me as a medical professional because they do something. They're specialized in other areas. 91 00:54:06.140 --> 00:54:29.870 No, And that's what I mean. That's exactly what I mean. Like the steps we've taken. Like, again, it's not some master plan to eliminate the family. It's like the steps we've taken that's been one of the trade offs. And so what we I do think it's worthwhile looking at those. Hey well what let's yeah, it's a great point. Trade offs that we we've given up but the answer can't be let's just go back to hunting and gathering or let's just go back. I think the community providing for everything. 92 00:54:29.870 --> 00:55:09.200 And I think you bring up a great point because if if those who opine for more religion and those who don't understand that, were they able to come together on this point, we could actually get a lot further in our public discourse about these things. Because you're right, when you say the fall of the religion isn't a plot or something sinister, it's because our imagined order has created new ways to structure society than we did 4 or 500 years ago. And so religion is just has taken it a started to take like meaning we don't look at our priests and our and our and our rabbis and all that to tell us how to live our life every day. 93 00:55:09.200 --> 00:55:13.880 At least not all of us are mostly correct. Let me let me add to this real quick, because we got we really got I'll just finish. 94 00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:15.980 Up and say we look to politicians and business leaders. 95 00:55:16.190 --> 00:55:38.320 And that's the point being, because remember in the book and we didn't go into this in depth, but there's just a lot in the book. We're not going to cover everything but just these the ideas of these myths and the imagined orders and religions even he puts the ideology in with. Religion like ideologies in his you know, in his presentation are religions, you know, whether it be, you know, whatever type of ideology they have. 96 00:55:38.620 --> 00:55:41.920 Communism, capitalism, Nazism he put in there, you know, all these are. 97 00:55:41.920 --> 00:55:57.940 Religions, so to speak. These are these are mythical things that people use to organize societies, so to speak, that they work because they exist in our collective imagination, you know, so to speak. And then corporations another another one that he gave a full example on in terms of how a corporation exists. 98 00:55:58.240 --> 00:56:08.430 Even things like the caste systems in India, we could say the Jim Crow system here at one point, you know, these are all realities until people break them, right? I mean, that's what I mean. 99 00:56:08.590 --> 00:56:22.090 They will existing orders based on myths until they change for some reason. So we appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call. Like see it subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review us, tell us what you think, and send it to a friend. And until next time, I'm James Keys. 100 00:56:22.120 --> 00:56:23.230 I'm Tunde Ogunlana. 101 00:56:23.410 --> 00:56:24.640 All right. We'll talk to you next time.