Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hello, welcome to Call It Like I See it, presented by Disruption Now, I'm James Keys, and in this episode of Call It Like I See it, we're going to discuss some things we saw in the Art of War, classic military treatise by Sun Tzu.
This text is probably one of the most widely read pieces in the history of the world.
And while it's old, many of its teachings remain relevant and instructive today. So we wanted to take a look.
Joining me today is a man who just took his shirt off and is talking about does anybody else want to mess with Hollywood? Coal Tunde. Ogon. Lana Tunde. Are you ready to tell the people how you like to handle yourself when things get crazy?
[00:00:59] Speaker B: Always. Man, you just didn't tell me about this. I didn't shave my chest.
[00:01:05] Speaker A: Now, we're recording this on August 17, 2021.
And we continue our culture series today by doing some reading between the lines in the Chinese military treatise the Art of War.
Now, the Art of War dates back to the 5th century BC and is attributed to Sun Tzu.
As the title suggests, it gets into different activities and know how that may apply to successfully waging war.
But over time we've also seen that many of the concepts and strategies can be applied to other aspects in life.
And so the applicability of a lot what's taught here is more wide ranging than just waging war.
Now, I don't think we need a spoiler alert for a 2,400-year-old military text, but I'll give one and say, yeah, we are going to discuss the content of the book and so this podcast will contain spoilers.
But to get us started, Tunde, just general thoughts on the book. What would stand out? The first thing you would say would stood out to you or something like that.
[00:02:13] Speaker B: The word pragmatism comes to mind.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I just, it's a very.
So what stands out is actually one of the things is how kind of short and concise it is.
Having heard of this book for most of my adult life, let's say I thought it would be some great, you know, just big, big, huge treaties, you know, like we like.
[00:02:40] Speaker A: Or something like.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: The wealth of nations, you know, one of these huge kind of things with all these volumes of text and, you know, all these different strategies and all that. And that's what impressed me about it was that it was just short and sweet and just very pragmatic and kind of just a rational way of looking at tactics and dealing with situations. I'd say that's maybe the best way for me to put it, just dealing with situations, obviously in this case it's battle, but you could apply this to other areas of life as well.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
The fact that it's concise stood out to me as well. But I'd say for me, the thing that was most notable was how it involved a lot of self analysis. And a lot of times when we think about accomplishing anything, or if you're thinking about war and military or you're thinking about your own life, we think about the hurdles we want to overcome.
The focus oftentimes is outwardly directed on the actual hurdle or even on the terrain or whatever, but it's rarely directed internally in terms of, okay, well, what do I need to do within myself or about myself to make me suited to leap over this hurdle to accomplish this? And so with this book almost, I mean, this probably you could say is. Gets into the pragmatic aspect, but it seems to be an overlooked aspect of it, at least in the west where I like the fact that I was encouraged and it was very insightful to me to see how Sun Tzu oftentimes when he's talking about something that needs to be accomplished, the first look is, or at least a primary look is, okay, well, what about yourself? Are you ready to do this? Are you suited to do this? Are you in a. Is your military force able? You know, do they. Are they capable of accomplishing what you want them to accomplish? Don't start trying to set out to do things you're not capable of doing. And so to me that was, that was just. It's different than I see oftentimes just in, in the, my interactions with people and my observations of things that, that inward look to begin.
[00:04:52] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's, it's a, it's. That's what makes it a great read is like you're saying it's a.
It forces one to have to look inward, which I guess some people can't do. Right. So some people probably will read this and get nothing out of it. But I think for those that are looking to not only learn just generally about this stuff, whether you think in tactics or strategy or be even. I wouldn't call this necessarily like a motivational book or something that I would look at as self help, you know what I mean? I wouldn't be like, give this to somebody who I think needs a little lift up and say, hey man, check this out. This might give you some ideas just in that way. But I would say if you were in, go in that Direction with things, you know, besides the Tony Robbins and the, you know, the Stephen Coveys and those kind of. I'm just naming a few of these authors, you know, that are known for. For. For kind of the more positive side. Yeah, self help and the psychology stuff. You know, maybe after getting a few. Through a few of those first and getting some direction with other things in your life, this kind of book might help then to help pragmatize and solidify the direction you wanna go. Maybe that's a better way for me to put it.
[00:06:05] Speaker A: Well, yeah, well, this book is. Those books come out like, more. Spell it out for you. This is more abstract. And so just to make the. To be clear, the book doesn't suggest that you only look inside, but that expressly includes, as far as looking at what you're trying to accomplish in that hurdle, looking at the terrain around that, but then also looking at yourself like that. It expressly included that in kind of the analysis of the circumstances and seeing what can work. But, yeah, this book. Yeah, you wouldn't start with this necessarily because it doesn't spell out in as great a detail the steps that you yourself would need to take. It's more of a mental framework that you probably could get more out of after you've read some of those other books, because then the things that have been spelled out for you, you could then probably conceptualize and say, okay, I get why they're saying I should do this and I should do that. It's based on this kind of a principle. So it almost can fill in some of the logic behind all of that express laid out here. Do this, do this, don't do that type of thing.
Because, I mean, something that's been around this long, people have been around a long time. And this type of a treatise gives you an insight into how people were looking at things or in particular, military strategy 2,400 years ago. But there's things to be learned from that as far as the modern times, and there's things that may not directly apply anymore, or at least in the context they spoke of. Maybe the logic applies, but the actual.
The approach itself may not apply anymore. So all of that stuff, you know, as you're reading, what it does, I think, is just. It increases the depth of your conception as far as some of these things. It gives you more kind of background as to why you may be seeing some of the things you're seeing. And it can, if you get to a certain point, it can help you make decisions on how you want to proceed yeah.
[00:08:05] Speaker B: Another thing that it requires is a lack of delusion.
And I say that in a serious way that because like we talked about, you have to also look inward and really assess what you're doing in the situation as well, and how you are approaching, you know, the opponent, so to speak, so on and so forth, and also in not being deluded by what you see from the opponent either.
And so that'll be some of the.
[00:08:34] Speaker A: Things I know we'll get into. And part of the strategy actually is to try to encourage your opponent into delusion, into thinking that you are like, make your opponent think you're weak when you're strong, you know, type of thing is the type of principle that is touched on. I want to get into some specifics, though. What was a section that stood out? I know you had mentioned the first section stood out to you, which is called Laying Plans.
What stood out to you in that?
[00:08:59] Speaker B: Well, it's a good segue because kind of the. When I mentioned delusion, I mean, that's what I was thinking of in terms of your own delusion and looking in terms of yourself and your abilities and then maybe not being deluded about the opponent. Because what stuck out to me getting into that section was, I guess, part 18 of that first section, Laying Plans, which is all warfare is based on deception.
So if you understand that, that means you have to have some certain level of deception on your side in terms of how you operate and what you allow the opponent or the outside world to see. And then you have to understand that at least a skilled opponent will be trying to do the same thing to you. So that's what I'm saying about not being deluded on either internal or external views of things. And so then there was just a couple others from there that stood out.
One was, you know, hold out baits to entice the enemy, feign disorder and crush them. So that's an example of, you know, the deception part of it, that if you hold out a few nuggets and you kind of make it look like you're a little bit disordered, disorganized, then obviously you're going to draw in your opponent maybe to make an attack at a time where they shouldn't, so to speak.
But then there's a couple more that, to me, stuck out.
If he is secure in all points, be prepared for him. If he is in superior strength, evade him.
That's a very. That's the one that made me think about the internal. You know, that requires one to check their own ego Because a lot of people can't evade someone, you know, their ego won't allow them. They gotta fight, they gotta push. And I started making me think about certain historic battles that I've read and researched over time. And you know, one figure that everyone knows of who was very bad at this at point 21 about evasion was Adolf Hitler.
You know, there's, there's plenty of stories of him, you know, basically threatening death to any Germans that surrendered in certain battles when they looked like they definitely were losing. And instead of allowing his troops to retreat and regroup, you know, he sent them into, you know, basically their death. And which means he had less people to fight as the war progressed. And eventually, you know, a war of attrition is real at some point.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: Well, and also that which I'll get into in a second, that would also lessen his troops faith in him. The ones that remain, you know, like seeing that type of callousness or that type of error would lessen their own resolve amongst their truths, which is talked about in the book, but in several sections.
[00:11:44] Speaker B: And that also would lead then the ability to help and convert. I know an area that we can get into later which would be then you can create spies out of them and other things. Right. If they're disgruntled. So there's a lot of these, like one thing can lead to another which overall could win the entire campaign, so to speak.
And so just two more I got in here was if your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him, pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant. I thought that's a great one, not only for war and battle, but I think in today's world where so many people are like at a knife's edge with their stress and their kind of the way they operate.
So again, if in a. More not on a battlefield, but in a personal situation, if you are dealing in an office or some sort of environment where someone is hot temper or things like that, you know, again, understanding how to deal with that, if you, you know, if you can push their button, so to speak, or if you want to pretend to be weak so that they grow arrogant and they make a bad move first, those kind of things, those are very important.
And then the last one for me in this section was attack him where he's unprepared, appear where you are not expected. And what that got me thinking of was the last probably 12 years or so of cyber espionage between the big nations. So I'm thinking of the major Chinese hack Where they got a lot of our secrets. I think it was back in 2011 or so.
Then you've got things like what happened in the run up to the 2016 election with the use of social media platforms by not only Russians, but others looking to disrupt the narrative here in our. In our democracy.
So I, I look at that as an area where most like, let's just say we weren't as a nation really prepared to defend ourselves from major cyber attacks.
And so that's where.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: Whereas we would have been if somebody would have tried to bring a bunch of ships to our shore.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: You know, start invading or something like that.
[00:13:44] Speaker B: Yeah. And that was a good.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: That would. Attacked us where we were strong as opposed to where we were we.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah, and that's what I was saying is that it's a good example of how, you know, we can be complacent. And the fact that you're right, we were used to nation states fighting with tanks and ships and planes and all that. And on a. On a shoestring budget, someone can really disrupt us using the Internet. Right. So those are, those are things that kind of stuck out to me with laying plans that for me, I would say.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: I mean, no, no. Before we leave this section, actually, the overall framework of this section was what really. I thought it set a good stage for the book.
In this section, he actually, and this is at the very beginning, he talks about the art of war being governed by five factors. And these are constant factors, factors that can. That are always going to be present, but can change in terms of what is going on with them at the moment. And you got moral law, what he calls moral law, what he calls heaven, Earth, the commander and method and discipline. Now, just briefly, the moral law is kind of alignment amongst the people, you know, with their leadership, with their, their ruler, so to speak. Heaven is like the seasons, you know, like the weather type of thing. Earth is like the, the, you know, the ground, like the terrain that you're on.
The commander is like the leadership that, like literally that. The.
The character of the leadership and then method and discipline is like the organization of the. Of the enterprise, so to speak. But the one in there that I think is oftentimes, well, what we see, I would say, in our democratic system of government is more. The moral law part was very interesting to me, because talking about alignment amongst the people in a society, with the leadership of the society, so everybody's kind of on the same page. And how that is one of the five things that is very.
Which would make sense but that's very important in accomplishing things, whether it be war or whatever. And what it made me think about is how oftentimes you only really have that, at least in our society, in this free and open society where you don't just have an iron fisted ruler that can take out people who don't agree with them or who's not in line with them, but do so maybe in a way that everybody else stays on board or stays in line, but it's only after we're attacked or after there's some tragic circumstance like not after 911 is what it stuck out to me is that there was a substantial alignment then, more so than I'd ever seen myself when I was alive amongst the people. Everybody was aligned in terms of something had to be done. This was unacceptable. And so we looked to the leadership, hey, what is the right response here? And, and then as long as the leadership was doing things that were tangentially related, people were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt and get on board and be full force behind it. And so that was very powerful to see that. And in that case it may have been misused to an extent, but the power of that. And if you look further back beyond our lifetimes, then you're looking back at something like Pearl harbor where everyone gets aligned on this, you know, on this mindset, like, okay, would this happen to us? We all feel together at this time, together with each other, together with our leadership. And then how the leadership responds. Generally speaking, people, as long as it's again tangentially related, people are going to be on board with it. So the power of that, you know, is something oftentimes I think that's whether it's overlooked or whether it's something because it's so hard to marshal. Like you don't want to have bad things happen just so you can respond in a unified way. But the power of that oftentimes I think is, is something that we just, we don't, we're not able to tap into on demand, so to speak. So it's, we're almost always going into situations where we're kind of one hand tied behind our back because half of the people or a third of the people are complaining about this and complaining about that. And people are always going to complain about stuff no matter what, you know, unless there's a tragic event that preceded it.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's therein lies probably the dilemma which I don't think is ever going to be solved unless we as humans evolve A way out of it, which ain't going to happen in our lifetime.
Therein lies the problem between, I think, open and freer societies like ours that allow for things like freedom of speech and difference of opinions versus let's say a more closed society or authoritarian society like let's say China or North Korea.
Because you're right, North Korea got a lot of enthusiasm behind the leader. But that's at, you know, whether, whether literally or figuratively, at the end of the barrel of a gun, you know what I mean?
Whereas the, you know, our society doesn't have the same authoritarian force to love the leader or to, or to force people to love the country in that, in a certain way.
So we have to deal with, you know, a bunch of competing and different interests and ideas.
So it takes usually, I think in our type of societies, some sort of tragic event or painful or shocking event for us to just recognize that kind of solidarity.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Yes, that's true. But it also, I think it gives you a lower floor and a higher ceiling for that kind of moral law, so to speak, because people also still feel invested. And so you've. Cause we've seen in some scenarios in history where the leadership gets attacked or the nation gets attacked and the people are like, ah, the leadership is, that's their issue. That's not our issue as people. And so in this, in, in this type of setup where the people feel some level of ownership and an open society, a free and open society, when there is attack, people do feel like they're attacked. They personalize it to an extent that may not happen in a more top down authoritarian setup, but you know, it's one of those things that like, that's kind of the gift and the curse, so to speak. You know, like you can marshal more goodwill and energy in times of crisis, but in those, the times of, in normal times it's very difficult to get people on the same page. So it can, you know, as with most things, there's pros and cons to it, but recognizing that actually you would hope that our leadership at any given moment would be aware that they're probably going to have to make, under normal circumstances, make extra effort to get people aligned and on the same page because that's going to be, that's going to play a big role in whether they can succeed or fail in whatever endeavor they're setting out.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: So I wanted to move on to another section. You had also pointed out that the attack by stratagem section, what was interesting to you, which stood out, what were you thinking on that one that you wanted to speak on?
[00:20:44] Speaker B: Just kind of. The title speaks for itself, right? Attack by strategy. Just the use of strategic planning and thinking to accomplish one's goals.
And I'll get through a couple of these quickly. One was just this idea of actually winning a war, winning a fight without actually fighting.
So, you know, I'll quote him here. Hence, to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence. Supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. And another here, section 6. Therefore, the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting. He captures their cities without laying siege to them. He overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.
My point is that again, one would think that, okay, this great general of strategy, a lot of people I think would think that, oh, it's all about just busting someone's head open and blowing things up and just all this kinetic energy of fighting a war. And what he's telling us here, again, this kind of pragmatism is trying to coach one. To say the best thing actually is not to get to that point is to try and win the campaign before you have to do go to that level.
[00:22:02] Speaker A: Well, Tunde, you definitely took the right message because the first line in this strategy is in the practical art of war talks about the best thing is to take enemy's country whole and attack.
But yeah, it's a practical thing, it's pragmatic.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: But go ahead and just say my little things and then I'll pass the baton. Like, he will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. That's what I mean. It's just such a simple, you know, such an amazing, just simplistic way and so real.
He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered by the sovereign. I thought that was a great reminder of like our countries separation of military and civilian power and leadership in terms of decision making.
And then there's examples again in history where the leader of a country, usually a dictator, could not keep his hands off the military strategy. And I think in at least Post the year 1900, I think 100% of those have failed.
So it was interesting. And then the last one to me that stood out was a more famous line that many people have heard quoted in various movies and things is if you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of 100 battles. So just again, this idea of with deep, deep intelligence, knowledge and then planning, one can accomplish a goal without worrying really about the outcome or the consequence, or I shouldn't say consequence, but at least the outcome of the engagement because.
[00:23:47] Speaker A: And the part of that, remember, is that because he continues there, if you know yourself and not the enemy, then you're kind of 50, 50. And if you know the enemy and not yourself, you're kind of 50, 50. So he breaks it down in that sense. But go ahead. I'm sorry.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: No, no, no. But that was, that's a great follow up and I'll hand up a ton back to you for this section because that's what I had. And that's exactly where it stuck out is that. And just that last point that you mentioned, that if you know yourself and know the enemy in a sense and really study and are deep about that, you don't have to worry about your victory, it's already sealed.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: But like you said, or you maximize your chances.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: Yeah, correct. But like you said, is if, if, if either side of that, if I know myself but I don't know my enemy, if I know my enemy but I don't know myself, all that, then you have issues.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: So again it's, it's, again, these are things that to me are great because they're not just about being in a battlefield. You know, these are, these are things we can use in our, in our day to day life as well.
[00:24:46] Speaker A: I mean, because that's basically what he's saying in a lot is that once you hit the battlefield, 95% of the decision of who's going to win has already been, is already done. You know, like you have very little control over what's going to actually happen at that point.
There's some control, but it's like the times leading up to the battlefield are oftentimes more determinative of the outcome than the times actually spent on the battlefield. And so, yeah, and in this, along those lines, you know, he lays out five essentials for victory.
He who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
He who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces.
He whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout the ranks. Again, that level of solidarity amongst within the troops.
He who has prepared himself but waits for his enemy to be unprepared.
And then he who has, whose military capacity is not interfered with by the sovereign. So that gets into the point you were saying, as far as how you don't want the political or the regular leadership screwing around too much with the military leadership, because the military leadership, that's what they do and they're preparing, assuming competence on their part. They're preparing in ways to attack along, or I should say, they're preparing in ways that are trying to account for these things. They have knowledge of their own forces. They have knowledge of the enemy. And so somebody just tries to dabble in or jump in and say, hey, we got to do this or we got to do that. You can take people down or take your own troops down the wrong way. And laying out those factors, though, again, those factors, essential keys to victory, those are not things that are really done on the battlefield. You know, those are the circumstances surrounding how you attack. And so, and we're going to later on apply some of these and we're going to look at a recent article or a kind of a post that discusses how you can apply these in your life. And this is another one of those where looking at the surroundings, the circumstances that are relevant to whatever you're trying to do, a lot of times that's going to determine your success or your failure, much more so than when you actually sit down and try to do whatever it is that you're doing.
And so, I mean, again, it's a similar theme, but there are several of these, Several, several themes, excuse me, of these similar themes that run throughout, in parallel throughout this treatise.
So. All right, well, look, moving on. I want to keep us moving. So moving to the next section. The last section that you wanted to discuss in detail was the section entitled Weak Points and Strong.
So what'd you have in that one that you wanted to hit on?
[00:27:43] Speaker B: Just some more of these kind of, you know, I think the idea of actually reflecting on your own behavior and disciplining yourself. So, you know, like, for example, I'll just quote one of the pieces here. In making tactical dispositions, the highest pitch you can attain is to conceal them.
Conceal your dispositions and you'll be safe from the prying of the subtlest spies, from the machinations of the wisest brains. So again, it's about a little bit about the deception side. You know, you've got to conceal things.
And kind of, again, that has to do with how you behave, not about how someone else behaves, for example.
And so, and then the last one I'll put here, there's obviously a few here that stuck out to me. But military tactics are like unto water. For water in its natural course runs away from high places and hasten downward. So in war, the way to avoid what is strong and to.
Sorry. So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong and to strike at what is weak. So again. And then he stole Mine. Yeah. And. And he gets into a few others after that about how water forms a shape. Like it's like. It's like its environment. And that's how you got to be, you know, as a tactical thinker.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: And he. He goes into also things like, do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by infinite variety. So, again, don't be the general backup. Yeah, don't be the general now that. That fought the last war.
[00:29:16] Speaker A: So.
[00:29:17] Speaker B: So that's why I like this section because it kind of has, again, this kind of idea of let me look internally and let me chisel away at my own imperfections, because if I can refine myself and my behavior, then I'm going to be in a better position to deal with the outside world, in a sense. And so we can take that theme or that idea and extrapolate it in so many different areas of life.
So that's why that one stuck out to me.
[00:29:48] Speaker A: No, I mean, this one is. This was a good one. I mean, this one actually went into more. Now you can take it almost in a parabolic sense, but this went into more like advice, in a sense. And yeah, I really liked the water one that you cited as far as, like, looking at your military tactics. But it could be any kind of thing.
The course, the natural course of water. As you watch water go down, whatever go, flow. Water flows to where the openings are, so to speak. Water doesn't force its way through something that there's no opening. So I found that to be very instructive in terms of being flexible, being aware of your surroundings. And then if you're trying to keep moving forward or trying to keep moving, it might not always be a straight shot. Sometimes you might have to. To bend a little bit with the terrain and you keep that motion. But it's not going to be directly as you would the straight line direct point between point A and point B. It may not be that.
And so with that, though, I thought that two practical pieces of advice that were kind of back to back in the middle were. And this is similar.
It's a similar kind of way to put that. But you can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places that are undefended.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: And then you can ensure the safety of your defense if you only hold positions that cannot be attacked. And that is, you know, like, it seems simple, but oftentimes, you know, it's. That's something that is very, very, very helpful to. If you're in any type of situation I look at even what I do as far as with if I'm in litigation or dealing with the US Patent and Trademark Office and just having a. And it not necessarily doesn't always have to be adversarial, but just where I'm arguing a position and someone else is arguing another position, I'm always careful to not take arguments that I know if somebody points, pushes at the right things, I can't defend. So I'm always looking for ways to how can I take a position that cannot really be attacked and then make all the focus on that position as opposed to anything else that may be going on or if I'm going to attack the other side, try to attack them in a place that they cannot defend. And so, you know, there may be four areas that I could attack and a couple of them, you know, they would have pretty good defenses and a couple of them they won't.
I may raise them all, but I'll really bring all the attention to the ones that they can't attack. And so it's, it's interesting to see that in this book and expressly laid out because that is, I mean it seems simple, but when you're in the heat of something, a lot of times if you don't take a step back and think from a strategic standpoint, you may end up banging your head against and attacking places where someone is strong over and over again and then wondering why you're not getting the movement that you would want. Because your attacks may be very strong, but they're defense you're attacking someplace that they can defend well.
So it's just something to keep in mind, you know, as you deal with. I mean, and that again, that's something that can be applied to. And we're going to get into this here in a second. But to your day to day life, if you want to, you know, not if you want to stop snacking late at night. You know, like it's one thing to just say, hey, I just want to stop doing it and so I'm going to not do it anymore. That is very. That's a difficult position to defend if you got snacks sitting in the cupboard, you know. And so it becomes a much easier place to defend if you have to. If you take affirmative steps again before the desire for the snack strikes you, once the desire for the snack strikes you and then you're in the battle. And if you haven't taken preparations before that, then your chances of succeeding are reduced as to if you would have taken steps before that to, you know, like if you were to take a steps before that to make it so that it's easier for you to win that battle when it comes up by like removing the snacks or something like that. So it's just very interesting to me to see how those type of strategies can be expressed 2,400 years ago from a military context, but then also be very, very, very relevant and specific. And specific, you know, like very specific in terms of that today.
[00:34:21] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, you know how I say it? If you believe in humanity and human beings, then 2400 years ago or today it's the same same things that make us tick. So I thought you were going to.
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Say sometimes human being or people are human beings too.
[00:34:34] Speaker B: Oh, sometimes they are sometimes. But, but that's why, that's why I was joking earlier about until we evolution changes us as a species, you know, like we evolve into something other way of behaving. That's why I joked as not going to be in our lifetime then this, this book is going to be maintain its relevancy. I'm pretty sure and I'm pretty sure that's why certain great literature pieces have maintained their relevancy for very long periods of time. Because in the end it all this stuff kind of is the same once you really look at it. Like you're talking about through 30,000ft. Like you're saying, you know, we're reading about a guy that wrote a book called the Art of War that really lays it out in tactical strategic terms, military terms.
But you just made an example of how it can be applied in one's personal life. The same concepts. And I think one thing that I get out of it is even hearing you speak about some of these things is really, it's about regulating your own emotional state. That's really the key. It's like when you give the example about how you might go in on a legal case. It's just that, you know, one attorney may discipline their emotional state and, and, and not go for the shiny object argument at first or something. You know, have a strategy of how they're coming into the courtroom and battling and the other one doesn't or just has a totally different one where their emotional state made them go for the certain argument first. And when they go both get in front of the courtroom and have it out, one's going to win and one's not. And the same things go into things like being prepared with your case.
One that I want to give an honorable mention that didn't make the list but I think was important was the last chapter on the use of spies.
So I could see in your world, right, of being in a court case, information being extremely important, and the attorney and the side with more information than the other probably having a victory. You know, you look in my world and kind of the capital markets obviously having information.
That's why there's all these rules about insider trading.
[00:36:39] Speaker A: I was going to joke, actually, in your world, having extra information may be illegal.
[00:36:44] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. But there's a reason that's the whole point, right, Is that it gives you an unfair edge against everyone else in a public market because they're actually trying.
[00:36:53] Speaker A: To level the playing field to some degree.
[00:36:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So that's what I'm saying is that it's an example where we could say, okay, the use of spies and use the word spy.
You have to be so kind of like there's a sexiness to it. Right. But in reality, it's not about the word or spy. It's really about intelligence. Right. That's why they call them intelligence agencies. It's about getting information first, being first to the one with information so you can make moves before others can. And that's really, that's what I mean, whether it's espionage between two nations or whether it's trying to just get information about a company that's on the public markets before everyone else does so you can be ahead of the game.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: It's.
[00:37:36] Speaker B: It's kind of all the same. That's what I mean.
[00:37:38] Speaker A: Well, yeah, it's, it's a, it is a threshold matter because in the same way that if you are Sun Tzu gets into, if you have the larger force, it's time to attack. If you have a smaller force, you have to try to avoid the attack. But information is the same kind of thing that if you, you want to be at the information surplus, you want to know, you want to have more information than the person you're dealing with or the people that you're. You're going against, so to speak. And so that's, you know, that's kind of that, that gives you an advantage. The reason why in the capital markets they try to outlaw that is because they want a laying playing field because they know having more information, having insight into certain things that everybody else doesn't have gives you an advantage. Like that's the point. So, yeah, I mean, that one obviously is one that is very instructive. He finishes the book with that one, is you're kind of left with that. And you know, yeah, it was one that, you know, is, I think everyone, anyone can appreciate. Because even if you're dealing with relationships, you're dealing with anything. Having more information is always going to give you an advantage, provided, as you kind of indicated, that you can maintain your mental state with that information. Like some people, you have too much information and you become the blabbermouth, or you give away your advantage or something like that, or you don't know how to be disciplined to take advantage of that information. But ultimately those could be your own unforced errors that could cause that. But I do want to transition us to talking about more explicitly. I gave one example or a couple examples already, but I wanted to ask you about areas where these type of lessons, whether stuff we talked about in depth already or anything else in the book you saw that can play into how you live your day to day life or improve your day to day life. You did send me a piece from a guy named James Clear where he talked about how to use military strategy to build better habits and specifically cited Sun Tzu. But the exercise, so to speak, is not one that is limited to one person. Like anybody can look at these and say, okay, this is the type of, this is the way I can try to set myself up for success in whatever my endeavor is by using this type of an approach, so to speak.
[00:39:48] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it was a, it's, yeah, a lot of interesting kind of gems in this, in this piece that are all just like the book itself of the Art of War, very pragmatic and they all make sense once you, once you kind of see them.
So, you know, he gives an example of just like Sun Tzu that don't, you know, don't attack where the enemy is strong. This, this Mr. Clear is talking about in this article about fighting our bad habits, whatever that bad habit might be. Like you said, for some people it might be snacking late at night, others it might be smoking cigarettes, others might be leaving the TV on at night or whatever.
So it says we fight our battles directly and attack the enemy, in this case, our bad habits at the point where they are strongest. And then he goes on, he cites a few examples. And the part I liked here was he says, in many cases, however, failure is not a result of, of poor willpower, but a result of poor strategy. And that stuck out to me because I think we've been conditioned, I think most of us just on the planet that a lot of things that if you do them, what are considered by society wrong. Let's go back to your example of snacking late at night, and then someone becomes obese. People look at that as, okay, that's kind of almost like a moral failure. This person is weak, they just eat too much or they're not disciplined, they don't exercise.
But, and that's my point. Like, this guy gives you a chance to say, you know, failure is not a result of poor willpower. I'm a bad person. Or I don't. You know, I've seen overweight people that are awesome in business or other areas of life. Clearly they have the ability to be effective in certain things, but it's a result of poor strategy. And I think that's a much more.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: It could be. I mean, like, yeah, like, that's something to consider as well. Particularly if you want to try to address the issue. You should, as we started off with, you should look at yourself as well. Okay, well, am I approaching this in a, in a way that's, that's causing me to not succeed? And so, yeah, strategy would be that.
[00:41:49] Speaker B: And, and that's what got me thinking about. So in your personal life, how you could use some of these ideas personally would be okay, you know, pick your battles. For example, right? Like, I might look at myself and say, wow, I do this. I have this habit. I have this habit. I have this habit. If I try and attack all at once, maybe I'll just wear myself out and I'll give up. So maybe I want to pick what in my life that I want to maybe address and let me just start focusing on that one or maybe two if I can.
[00:42:18] Speaker A: And then also ideally, ideally, doing it by like, the way water would do it, find the weaker ones, start plucking those off. And then as you pluck some of those off, then as you get going downhill more, you may be more able to overcome some of the harder ones. Yeah.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: And that's a great example of how they all kind of do flow together. Right. One is not distinct from all the others.
And that got me thinking too. What the gentleman speaks here in the article is kind of controlling the environment. So again, to your point about the snacking late at night. So if I want to do that, meaning if I want to stop snacking late at night, probably continuing to go out and buy big bags of potato chips and certain things that are going to be.
Continue to keep me attracted to snacking isn't good. So I need to change my environment, which means let me maybe change how I, you know, what my cupboard looks like in that example.
[00:43:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: And in many other examples, you know, if you want to start stop drinking alcohol or something, we'll stop going to the bar or hanging out, getting around.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: A bunch of people. Look like you're having a great time drinking alcohol.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And that leads into too the emotional state. Because maybe then I'm saying I, I don't want to give up my relationships with my friends.
So therefore emotionally I can't pull away from that group or that setting.
Or maybe some people can and they say, you know what, I got to cut this group off.
And maybe some people talk to their friends and say, I'm trying to stop drinking. You know, I want to make this change. I can't hang out with you at a bar, but I can hang out with you over here. And if the friend replies in a way that is negative, they may run back to that friend. Oh, okay, well I won't, I won't stop going to the bar. So again, it goes back into this idea that it really comes from our inward self and our ability to control and discipline ourselves.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: That's very. Yeah, that's where it has to start, you know, that's what has to start. And you know, like that's oftentimes where you can exert the greatest degree of control and where you. We talked about the intelligence where you are able to gather the greatest amount of information is about yourself. And so that.
[00:44:26] Speaker B: Well, let me go here though. As you say that just to stop and to keep going is. That's where I think the risk of delusion comes in with a lot of people though, when you're looking inwardly.
[00:44:36] Speaker A: Well, it does, it certainly does. But I mean that's what you kind of need to be able to overcome if you want to make the real progress. Because the delusion may feel good, but it will be a barrier to your progress because that actually hides information from you. Information that otherwise.
Information that otherwise would be readily available to you. Without the delusion, you almost. Your brain hides it from yourself to preserve a feel good or a psychic sense that you feeling that you have. So it could be very dangerous in that sense. But. No, go ahead.
[00:45:09] Speaker B: No, I was just gonna say. Cause you actually helped me with that last little bit. You said that being married is a great way to detract from.
I'm thinking about how many times I've been pointed out where my faults are.
My ego is definitely crushed and shattered after all these years of marriage, that's for sure.
But you know what, you know, it's an interesting joke with that, but you know, it's an interesting thing that I heard when I was like in my early 20s, before I was married, but I've never forgotten it because being married has proven to me it's correct.
And they said that. And they didn't talk about just marriage. They said a relationship really. So I guess any kind of intimate relationship. They said relationships are really a mirror that's being held up you to yourself. Yeah, and I never, I thought about that after being married for a few years and hearing certain things I was doing wrong and thinking, you know, like, wow, maybe that was true. This is a reflection of myself.
[00:46:10] Speaker A: So we're doing this all wrong then. We need to get Zabrino on here to talk about you.
[00:46:15] Speaker B: Definitely, definitely.
[00:46:17] Speaker A: Yeah, we're hearing you talk about you. It's like, hold up, we're getting the delusion.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: I'm already like sweating and getting nervous here just thinking about this.
[00:46:25] Speaker A: Just thinking about, yeah, we'll get.
Zebrina will tell us about Tunde.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: But that would end the whole show thing because then the audience would have nothing left to like ponder about me.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: Many layers would be all they, they treat me like. I looked at the, this book we're talking about. When I realized it was so short, you know, I was like, damn, I thought this thing would be like a big volumes of stuff.
I can't, you know, I can't bring her on here and give away all my secrets, you know, all three of them. Come on.
[00:46:57] Speaker A: That's good, man. That's good. So no, I, I think that in, in this, you know, in this piece that James Clear did, but also just in general, looking at how these types, again, how these types of points or elements can be applied to your own life really comes down to looking at, when they say war, it's really about how to approach, accomplishing something, you know, and war allows you to focus it in on specific things. Because we all view war, at least up until, you know, cyber warfare, we all viewed war as kind of in a similar context with men with manpower, with weaponry and with trying to take positions or hold positions and so forth. And so. But those kind of concepts there are like if, if you apply it more abstractly, you can find analogies in bad habits or in trying to accomplish something from a career standpoint. Like you can find analogies and all that. And what this piece that we're talking about here, and I'll put it in the show notes, what that does kind of like when we talked earlier about self help books, what they do is just kind of make it express for you. Whereas in Sun Tzu's Art of War, it's more abstract. You then have to take the extra step to then say, okay, well how would I then what's the analogy for the spy here or the intelligence gathering? What's the analogy for the troops? Or what's the analogy for trying to take the position or trying to defend a position? You have to apply those analogies yourself. Whereas what, what basically, when you look at the self help aspect, whether it's interpreting Sun Tzu or anything, is they're just telling you directly. There's no, there's very little interpretation that's required on your part. Which is nice. You know, like that's nice. You can either go direct to the source and do the own interpretation or you can have said, hey, tell me, you know, interpret this for me as far as what, how I can apply this to my life directly. And, you know, so either way works, you know, the effort, I think, is what can really make it something that works. Yeah. So, you know, we can think we can wrap it from here, man. So I want to appreciate it or tell everybody. We appreciate everybody for joining us.
[00:49:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I just want to jump in too and say thank you. I won't name him because I didn't ask his permission, but we had a listener that sent us about two weeks ago an idea for a topic which actually was an article about a war game that our military had done. So that we decided as we got into this that we always wanted to do something on Sun Tzu. So we decided to kind of marry the two ideas. So I just wanted to thank the listener because I know he'll be listening to this and want to just all the other listeners, we welcome that type of input and feedback for ideas and show topics. So just wanted to put that out there.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because you can always reach out through direct message on Twitter.
Call It DN is our handle and you can follow us there. We'll give you updates on episodes and so forth.
[00:49:58] Speaker B: And you can find me with a carrier pigeon.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: If you're lucky.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: I don't do all that tech.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:05] Speaker B: If I'm home.
[00:50:07] Speaker A: So. All right, well. But no, we. Again, we appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call It Like I See It. And until next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:50:14] Speaker B: I'm Tunde.
[00:50:15] Speaker A: All right, subscribe. Rate. Review and. And yeah, definitely rate us. Give us a rating. So if you're listening on Apple, give us a rating. We appreciate that. And we'll talk to you next.
