Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hello, welcome to Call It Like I See it, presented by Disruption. Now, I'm James Keys, and in this episode of Call It Like I See it, we're going to discuss our impressions and takeaways from the book the Subtle Art of Not Giving an F U C K by Mark Manson.
This book tries to turn many common conceptions for self improvement on their head. Offering as described in the book subtitle, a Counterintuitive Approach to Living a Good Life.
Joining me today is a man who learned long ago that many truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Tungdae, Ogunlana Tunde are you ready to drop some of your Jedi Master knowledge and broaden all of our points of view?
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Yes, sir. I'm looking forward to it. All right.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: All right.
Now we're recording this on February 1, 2021, and we continue our culture series today by taking a closer look at the bestselling book the Subtle Art of Not Giving an F U C K by Mark Manson.
This book was Originally published in 2016 and since then has become quite a notable contribution in the self improve, self help literature world.
In it, the author reveals what he thinks is wrong with many of the ways we've been taught to approach our lives and lays out some alternate constructs which appear pretty jarring at first, but he believes can be used to better orient our approach and our expectations for our lives.
Now, before we begin, I want to say this podcast does contain spoilers, as far as, you know, things that are revealed in the book, and we're going to discuss key elements of the book. So if it's something that you would not want to have spoiled, then you will not want to continue at least until you've read the book.
So, jumping right in, Tunde what was your overall impression of the book? What did you think about the premise of the book summed up by the title, the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck.
And based on what you read, did you find the author credible?
[00:02:19] Speaker B: Great questions, actually.
So the answer is, yes, I found them credible. Yes, I like the book, but the reason why I say the great question you're set up is because you mentioned the title.
So yes, I think that the title stuck out to me because the Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck as a title for a book is rare.
So I would say this for me, just to sum it up quickly and then we'll do this show that the book did, did satisfy what I thought I was going to read. It was. I thought it was a good Book, I thought you're right in the way you. You opened it up right. It kind of hits on that. I don't know what we call it. Self help. The kind of inspirational Tony Robbins style stuff of literature that I think many of us at a certain point in life have read things like this. But I think that what made this book a little bit more unique than others was not only the fact, and we'll get into it, that the title speaks a lot to the way the book is written. It just kind of goes right at certain topics. He kind of hits you in your face with certain things and he just talks like an everyday person. So it hits you a little bit different than some of the other versions of this style of literature that we've all read. But then also stuck out to me that he's probably the youngest author I've ever read that wrote this kind of book. So this guy, I believe, was in his early to maybe mid-30s. He's at the oldest when he wrote this, like you stated, about five years ago. So this guy's a millennial. So one thing I think he did do well in bringing in was a lot of things we've talked about in this show. He kind of does a lot more in describing how modern technology and the world we live in today adds to some of these, I'd say, negative influences on our personality and things that as individuals, we need to have our own ability and our own guardrails to kind of, let me see, fight some of these urges and tendencies that naturally come about in our brains and our emotional state. And so he gets into things like social media and kind of the Internet and how that affects us all. So those are things I haven't really read in a Tony Robbins book or Napoleon Hill. You know, this guy was lived 100 years ago with the book Think and Grow Rich. So that. That stuck out to me a bit too, that it's. It was a bit interesting that, you know, as a millennial, he's bringing in some of this modern stuff. So it was a great book, I think, overall.
[00:04:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, what stood out to me is a lot of what you said. It was kind of like a shock jock approach to this type of content, which you don't ordinarily see.
And he calls it counterintuitive, but it was almost combative in a way, with a lot of conventional thought processes as far as how to live a happier life or a better life or to improve yourself. And looking at that, I think that his approach matched his language. So to Speak. Disregarding formalities and so forth. But actually what stuck out to me the most about both the book and the author is that the guy seemed very observant. Just the way he described things and what he was describing and so forth. It was done in great detail. And there was nuance that was. He picked up on, that I picked up on in his writing and saying, okay, this guy is really seeing a lot of these things very closely and seeing a lot of the contours and the textures of some things that many people may just top line over. And so that actually added to the credibility I was interested in what, regardless of his age, which, as you know, like. Or as you noted, him being younger, a younger person who wrote this stood out actually in the style. Like, this guy's a blogger, and it does read like a really long blog in many ways, or several blog posts, I should say, put together in terms of different blog posts being different chapters. And so.
How observant he was stood out to me in either the anecdotes he told or the concepts he was discussing made him more credible to me. It was like, okay, well, this guy, he's talking to me in a way that is normally not a way that I would hear someone who really is authoritative on a subject. But I think that, again, is just part of the presentation. Like, he is coming at this, saying, everybody else, you know, you guys are doing this wrong. You guys aren't looking at the big picture. And so I'm gonna throw a bunch of F bombs in it, and I'm gonna, you know, do it like that. But some of that is attention getting. But if you really look. If you really read, you know, as far as what's going on, he actually is. He has made some very, very, very sharp observations which we'll get into as we get further along.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: And that's what stuck. And that's what goes back. That's why I said me hearing you talk now helped me kind of just clarify my final thoughts, which is, you know. Cause this is something I got out of that book too. Everything he talked about, I've read before somewhere.
[00:07:18] Speaker A: Yes, correct.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: You know, there's. So it lends me to the fact that there are certain principles within how human beings are constructed, how we operate emotionally and psychologically, which are. Which are true. Almost like you have the natural sciences, like gravity and the speed of light. There are human beings. I know we're irrational. So it's not as fixed and certain as the natural sciences, but there are certain patterns that human beings have, which are kind of tested and tried over time. So he discusses those. Those haven't changed. But as we're discussing now, his approach to explaining them, I think is novel in the sense that it's for this generation.
[00:08:03] Speaker A: No, certainly, certainly. And you know, but it also, it represents. It's building on. Like you said, we have seen a lot of these things before, but they've been put. He's putting together in a way, and building on them, adding his own life experience. And like you said, the way he ties it all up at the end is adding something to it. And, you know, like when while each one of these concepts may in the abstract or individually be something we're familiar with, putting them all together, he does come up with what could be deemed as a counterintuitive approach.
So now, at its core, you know, the book seems to be like partly self improvement and partly like a study in human psychology, you know. So, like, what principles stood out to you? You know, maybe give us a one or two that stood out to you as far as something that one could use to better themselves and their approach to life. Like which one of those stood out, Whether it was something that was counterintuitive or just something you've heard before but that you like the way he put it.
[00:09:01] Speaker B: Well, James, I was ready for you today. So I have six principles that stood out.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: I tried to narrow it down to three, but I couldn't. That's why.
[00:09:11] Speaker A: Well, you got to go through them more quickly.
[00:09:13] Speaker B: I'll tell them real quick and I'll go through them throughout the discussion. I'm not going to go through each one now, but just to name them off, one was. I'll put the page number two, happiness comes from solving problems, which started on page 30. Victimhood chic started on page 110, Manson's Law of Avoidance, starting on page 130.
The do something principle on page 152.
Freedom through commitment on page 180. And then my sixth one was just the whole last chapter, the concept of death. And I put here, death is the great equalizer of men. You know, that famous quote. But it's just, you know, that good reminder that this isn't forever.
And I'll share some of my own experience with that is just a good motivator to get stuff going in your life. Okay, those were the six that stuck out to me.
And I know we'll get into discussions that allow me to say why over this.
[00:10:06] Speaker A: Next I was gonna say, well, why don't you take maybe the first One and kind of tell us what about that really stood out. And particularly as you can relate it to the way the author put presents it.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah. So the idea of happiness, I think that's something because the author, again, him being young and being a millennial, and him incorporating a lot of the.
I would say, the bombardment and psychological warfare that we have from advertisers and media and the Internet and all that, people jockeying for our attention maybe is a better way to put it.
[00:10:39] Speaker A: The attention economy.
[00:10:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And so this idea of happiness is Become a very material idea and something that kind of like, we almost. Like, you want to like, you know, the whole pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Like, that's supposed to make us happy. And as I've gotten older, I've actually contemplated this over the last few years. You know, it's the journey that really is about the growth and what makes the happiness. That's why that stuck out to me.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: Because, remember, that was the alchemist, too,
[00:11:04] Speaker B: when we did the alchemist in the Alchemist. And that's what I mean. It's another example that these are all things that.
Principles that aren't unique to this book. Because that's a great point about the alchemist. The alchemist was a good example that these principles and ideas aren't new to this book.
But that's what I mean is that stuck out to me, having those own feelings as I'm maturing as a human being. Like, all right, I got this, right, that accomplished. Or I have this or that physical manifestation of my accomplishment. I bought this, bought a new car, did something. But that doesn't really make me happy.
When I look back, it's the journey that got me there that actually makes me feel accomplished, which then gives a feeling of some sort of satisfaction, which one could say is somewhat happiness.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Let me jump in real quick on that, because, yeah, I think what I took from that actually was that the happiness that you feel at the end of the journey is kind of misplaced, basically. Like, we remember it incorrectly, the buildup, the time we spent getting there is what really has the most meaning to us and is the most fulfilling. But because it culminates in something, then we misremember sometimes that we think back and it was as the culmination, as the crowning achievement, so to speak, and almost forget that, actually, you know, the part about where all the memories are and the part. And so that to me, like, I definitely am all about, you know, enjoying the journey and so forth, but. But I think it helped me kind of identify why we tend to fall into this over and over again. Where we're looking at this destination as where the happiness is and forgetting, like why do we keep needing to be reminded of this? And I think it's because we misremember just the way our brains work. We misremember when we think, oh, you know, it was so great when we got to the end to the top of the mountain. But actually when we really think about it and don't just top level think about it, it's like, oh no. We remember as going up and we solved this problem and we solved that problem and actually phrasing it in the terms of solving problems along the way I thought was very helpful as well. Because that is true. That gives you that boost when it's like, oh, okay, yeah, we took another step. That's great.
I agree with you. I thought that that was a very good way to put it and to think of it in terms of finding happiness as a result of solving problems on your way from a starting point to a destination.
[00:13:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I think one of the things that he alludes to in the book, not necessarily right in this part that we're talking about, but it kind of ties in. He says that, you know, in our modern world with all this technology and we're bombarded with advertising and all that, that's this kind of telling us what's supposed to make us happy and what happiness is supposed to be. That really what we've done, and this goes back to conversations you and I have had many times on and off the air here is about things like Maslow's hierarchy. And you know, you've heard me joke that, you know, our society is a reflection of kind of what things look like when you're at the top of the pyramid for too long, that we have all this time to complain about things that really don't matter. And he said that he had a great one liner for that. He said something to the effect of, you know, humanity has figured out how to solve most of our physical problems. You know, we've got great healthcare, we've got, you know, mortality rates are down, illiteracy is up, all that kind of stuff. We. Which.
[00:14:26] Speaker A: And it's a relative statement, you know, It's a relative statement.
[00:14:29] Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean, if you look through the last 10,000 years of history, this is a pretty good time to physically be alive. So he says we've solved our physical problems as a kind of species, but what we've done is we've created a whole new plethora of psychological problems. And I thought that was a very interesting way to address it. And it comes back to things that we've also discussed. And so to finish off this section about happiness, you know, I'll quote real quick. What stood out to me was some of this stuff he mentions. Problems never stop. They merely get exchanged and. Or upgraded. Happiness comes from solving problems.
To be happy, we need something to solve. Happiness is therefore a form of action. It's an activity, not something that is passively bestowed upon you. That stood out to me a lot because it got me thinking about even, like, I started painting canvases a few years ago or doing my own little kind of hobbies like that.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: And your retirement plan.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Yeah, my retirement.
But that's kind of the game, right? Like, what is happiness?
And that's when I was reading that, I was like, yeah, just me painting a canvas makes me a bit happy because I'm doing something, you know, you're just creating versus sitting on the couch and watching the news.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: No, no, no. I mean, the happiness is an action is very insightful and it's a good way to conceive it. You know, it's more esoteric to say, oh, okay, you know, enjoy the journey, or the life is in the journey, not in the destination. But actually just thinking to yourself or reading happiness is an action.
Happiness is not bestowed upon you, like knighthood, you know, then that is a good way, a good construct for you to move forward with. And so, I mean, that was a strength, you know, like I said, with this, where the concept may not have been completely out of nowhere, but he put it in a very good way. And the ways he described it and the places he pointed to his life or, you know, just observation and did. That was very effective. It was a very effective presentation. So, I mean, I'm with you on that. What was the next one?
[00:16:27] Speaker B: I mean, you really good. I like your use of the English language of this bestowed upon you. I had this, like, vision of Queen Elizabeth, like, putting the sword on each shoulder of me, you know, like knighting me and saying, it is man, you're happy, sir.
[00:16:40] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what Samsung does when you buy a new tv.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: Yeah, basically. Right.
[00:16:45] Speaker A: Your happiness at least, you know, but that's. That's how I would say this.
[00:16:49] Speaker B: Sony did it when we got the PS5. That was. That was happy. I was happy for like, you know, two weeks. That was pretty cool. And then it went back to normal.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: And I think, well, but actually that is kind of the thing is that the point being that the happiness is just more fleeting if it's tied to you getting something. Because then once you have it, problems don't change. Like something else you want.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: Yeah, to kind of like then you're just constantly chasing a high in a sense. I mean, that's what he really gets to, you know, so it's interesting.
[00:17:16] Speaker A: So what was the next one you want to talk about? I'm going to go through your list of.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So then we won't. We can, we can start going quicker through them. So the next one was Victimhood Chicago.
[00:17:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:17:25] Speaker B: That has a lot of reasons. I liked it. But one of the ones I'll just read, start with a quote here, which is why again, it ties in with him bringing together some of the technology he says here. Unfortunately, one side effect of the Internet and social media is that it's become easier than ever to push responsibility for even the tiniest of infractions onto some other group or person, rewarding people who are able to perpetually feel victimized with ever growing amounts of attention and sympathy. And then I have one more quote here.
This may be the first time in human history that every single demographic group has felt unfairly victimized simultaneously.
When I read that, I was like, that's exactly why I got off social media. It's a great point. The first time in human history that every single demographic group feels unfairly victimized simultaneously. And that goes back to my joke. I've told you that social media to me is like just a hyper example of misery loving company. You know, everyone's got an ax to grind. They're all, everyone's a victim on there. Every single group, you know, no matter who they are, including whatever we think our group is, you know, like everybody's on there with an ax to grind. And so.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: Well, one thing that really, I thought about that one that he noted was that because of that it really drowns out the real issues. It becomes like the boy that cries wolf, so to speak.
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: You know, because everybody's always a victim, even for minor things or even sometimes if it's your group or if it's other groups or whatever. Everything that happens, we see this from time to time with even causes we support where it'll be like, oh man, well, that's not really a big deal. Like you're kind of making, someone's making kind of a bigger deal out of something than they need to. And that's not to say that people aren't allowed to say their piece But I think the key takeaway from this part was just that victimhood has become in fashion or in style, so to speak, or it is. And social media amplifies that. It bestows more attention, since you, like, bestow. It bestows more attention on people claiming to be a victim. And so therefore, it becomes harder for all of us as a society to really see where the people are being subjected to improper treatment. But it becomes harder to see that. It becomes harder to conceptualize that and becomes harder to address that when victimhood is just going around like, you know, like it's nothing.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: Yep. And that's why I think we could stay on this topic for a long time, and we won't. But I do believe this is something new for humanity. And let's see how, you know, so far, it isn't playing out too well, but.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: Well, yeah, yeah, this is the result of that level of interconnectivity, you know. So what you got next for us, man?
[00:20:11] Speaker B: The next was, yeah, Manson's law of avoidance. So, you know, to quote it here, the actual law is the more something threatens your identity, the more you will avoid it. So obviously, we can go. You know, that can be taken a lot of different ways.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: Well, let me throw something at you on that one. Yeah, to me, this one was just confirmation bias.
Now, again, I thought that the way he presented it added value in a different way to look at it, a different perspective as far as how to look at it. But part of confirmation bias. Confirmation bias works in two ways. One is that information that confirms things, your conception in your mind, you attach more importance to it. You find it more credible, you believe it more. But the other part of confirmation bias is that things that challenge what you want to believe, you reject or you push away or you're less likely to find credible. So I found this one to play. Now, I say all that to say though that. Or I say all that to say that confirmation bias and the way we conceive of these cognitive biases is relatively new. And so we just have more of a scientific way of describing this law of avoidance. Now, I would say, and the law of avoidance may be broader, but to me, the way it was presented here was just like, oh, yeah, I'm familiar with that. And yes, that is a problem. But. So what was your thoughts on it?
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Yeah, no, definitely. It's interesting to hear confirmation bias come up, because you're right in the definition that I'm gonna read here, which sums up exactly what you said. He says, and I quote, this is why People are often afraid of success for the exact same reason they're afraid of failure. It threatens who they believe themselves to be. So on the in, end quote, obviously. So in the vein of confirmation bias, you're right.
You know, one is already confirming who they think they are. They either think they're a success or a failure. And it's funny, I was thinking in my head, you know, great philosophy comes from so many different places. So the great philosopher Stuart Griffin from the cartoon Family Guy, the baby who talks, Stewie once quoted, I think a real philosopher, but I remember the quote from him in the show saying.
Because I think it was a show where they were spoofing on the motivational speakers, and he was telling Brian, the dog who also talks, brian, just remember, if you can or you can't, you're right.
Right. And so when I read this part, I was like, yeah, same principle. And so. But that's. That's kind of. Cause it got me thinking of someone else from the book. We just also mentioned that we did a show on last year, which was the Alchemist, the Cryst Merchant.
[00:22:47] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: You know, the fear of actually being successful.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:51] Speaker B: At, you know, growing his business. Or the fear of, you know, going on the pilgrimage, you know, doing the Hajj.
[00:22:57] Speaker A: Because, you know, we got in that we got to hear. Because obviously that's a fiction book. So we got to hear his thoughts. And that was exactly his. His thoughts were, yeah, oh, if I expand my store, then I'm gonna have to hire more people. I'm gonna make more money. And he's saying all this as a conversation, like, as a reason not to.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: And I think. And that's why it stands out the way that one of the quote I made, because, you know, we often think of the fear of failure as then leading to avoidance. You know.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:27] Speaker B: And whether it's how I'm wired or just as something that's less talked about, I don't know. But I often don't think of the fear of success as a reason that stops people from doing things.
And it's a good reminder that, yeah, to actually become successful at something can be scary because then that brings on added responsibility.
And that's why I say maybe I don't see it because I'm not wired that way. I tend to embrace trying to be more successful and having more responsibility in a lot of areas in life, but that's just me. So I can recognize how.
Because I've also seen, like, in the business world, let's say, in just my own Life, just people I know. And I saw this when I was younger, that there were certain men that were older than me at the time. You know, maybe I was in my late 20s, early 30s, and they were, you know, in their late 40s, early 50s. And I watched them literally implode. They got to a certain level and then what I see from the outside was they almost had like this inner psychological insecurity.
Yeah. And maybe they didn't believe they could be there at that level of success, you know, financial success and their family success, and they kind of just imploded.
They started behaving in ways that were detrimental or. Yeah. Self destructive. So, you know, whether it was the industry they're in, they started actually going a bit rogue for the first time and in a 20 year career. And they started, you know, getting slaps on the wrist by, you know, the legal compliance or whatever the industry kind of guardrails were. Then they started doing stuff that got them divorced or near divorce, you know, and it's just like. And I kind of realized, like, wow, is that, is that a reflection of some sort of insecurity? Like, and not, not to say that like in a way that is negative about these people, but more I was almost looking at it with sympathy. Like, is this something I was trying
[00:25:21] Speaker A: to understand, like, how do you walk the straight and narrow for 20 years and then all of a sudden when you get to a place that you would think that people who would walk that straight and narrow would want to get to, once you get there, then you start, you know, doing the unexplainable, you know, trying to sabotage it.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And a lot of things in this book I think spoke to maybe reasons that could be for that. Obviously I don't know what's in those individuals head directly, but I think sometimes, you know, and I've come to learn, reading a whole bunch of books like this over the years, that a lot of things all of us deal with, both you and I included, I'm sure go back to our childhood.
And so when I started thinking about the men I saw that kind of. Did that implode. Like you're saying that. I mean, I've just watched you work so hard all this time to get here and now there's this self destruct button that seems to be pushed somewhere deep inside you that that really is probably reverting to some deep insecurity that they may not believe they should be here.
Maybe they were told when they were young and they were developing emotionally that they were not good enough to ever do something or be somewhere. Maybe that, that drove them early in their life to climb the ladder and climb the mountain, but once they got to the top of the mountain and realized that it's kind of lonely at the top in a certain way, maybe that, that, that, that was too much, so.
[00:26:37] Speaker A: Well, you definitely are rocking the speculation hat right now.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: There's a lot of speculation. That's why it's interesting.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: I would look at it this in the. And that what you just explained. I would look at it in the context of the previous thing we discussed, which was dealing with the happiness as a result of solving problems. And once the problems they had set out to solve, once they had kind of solved those, they didn't actively or consciously make it an objective to say, okay, well what now do I want to work towards? What journey now do I want to go on? They got to the top of a goal, they got to a top of a pyramid. They didn't immediately say, okay, now let me go to the top of another pyramid. They said, okay, I'm here, I should be happy now. But instead more problems popped up, generally to their own making because they didn't consciously try to create another path for them to go on.
That's my impression of that. And from what we just saw in this book and then other things that we've read, it seems like that you need to be on a journey at all times. If you get somewhere to a destination and then just try to chill, cause, hey, I'm here. Then you might, regardless of inner demons or anything like that, you might just self destruct because you don't have an objective anymore. You don't have a journey that you're on anymore.
So that would be without speculating about any historical. Just it seems like we need to be in the process of solving something at all times. If we want or otherwise we start just creating our own problems that we have to then solve. So yeah, you can take in many ways though. I mean, I definitely understand what you're saying.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: That's. And it's interesting you say that about even creating problems because you know, if, by the way the author defines it, if a big part of happiness is solving problems, maybe the mind actually subconsciously creates them sometimes just to see if you can solve them and get to some sort of happiness.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: At least if you don't consciously, like I said, if you don't consciously say. And that's actually a big takeaway from this book to me, I was going to get to it, but I might as well now that we need to in order to correct. A lot of the things he's talking about in this book are the way that our bodies and minds naturally function. And so being aware of it is not just to be able to have fun and talk about it over drinks at a cocktail party, but it's also to say, okay, well, if this is how things are going to work by default, then let me try to take an active role in trying to avoid some of the more harmful ones. So with this, to me, it seems like the directive and as kind of referenced, and sometimes directly, sometimes indirectly in the book is that you need to have a rabbit at all times. You need to have something that you're chasing. It doesn't have to be career oriented or business oriented, but something that you are trying to solve at all times. It could be painting in the garage, you know, like Tunde, Ogo, Lana. You know, it could be anything. But you need to constantly be trying to do something. Or else, like you said, subconsciously, your brain says, all right, well, we need a hurdle to jump. So if the conscious mind isn't creating one, then I'm just gonna create one.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: I'm gonna keep painting canvases. Because I thought of if I stopped doing stuff like that, then the hurdle that my mind might create is me going to a strip club, cheating on my wife. And I'm realizing that's not gonna be a good hurdle to jump.
And that's gonna be too many problems for me to. I don't know if I'll be happy trying to solve those problems. So you know what? I appreciate this whole conversation. Cause I'm gonna stick to painting canvases in the garage.
My wife, sure, she hears this show.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: There you go, man. Yeah, keep solving that problem, man. Being mad at yourself. Oh, man, I can't believe I messed that brushstroke up.
There you go. Solve that problem.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: There you go. I'll just think about the other problem. That'll be a lot worse. And I'll be happy that I messed up the brushstroke.
[00:30:22] Speaker A: Sorry. So what else you got for us? What else, man?
Your list, man.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: I thought you had a very comprehensive list. Well done. The do something principle, which I think is probably the most straightforward and self explanatory. Which is, you know, you got to do something.
This one stuck out to me a lot because it's a principle I've used my whole adult life without realizing it.
And I realized this as I read this book. Meaning I've come to realize it over the last few years that a Lot of the reason why, I guess I am where I am when doing certain things in my life is because as much as I do have fear like everyone else, and I'm a human being that has insecurities and all that.
I take calculated risks and with the understanding that I'm not sure where it's going to end up, but it's going to continue to move me forward.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: Well, for me, this one actually was the most impactful thing in the book for me. Interesting, because one of the things I have wrestled with throughout my life is the ability, like the example given here dealt with. You sit down in front of a blank screen and then you have to produce some type of content.
And so for me, that is the blank screen is always the most intimidating thing. You know, you're trying to write something. I'm trying to write a brief. I got a file with Court, or I have to. I'm trying to write a patent application or something like that, and I have all the information in my head, but just trying to do it. And what I realized a long time ago is that it's the perfectionism that makes it hard to start or makes it hard because you want to do it perfect. And then you're like, okay, well, if I. If I got to do it perfect, then, you know, it becomes harder than just writing something. Just. And so the example in the book given was that you write the first sentence or you write the first paragraph, and then that gives you the inspiration to keep going. Like, by writing that first sentence, the second sentence comes into your mind. And then even if you don't love it, you can tweak it or something like that after the fact. And so for me, actually, like, this was embodied. I did this maybe 12 years ago. I put on my desk just two words and a line, and on the top is production or productivity.
The line is right under that, and then perfection is underneath it. And the concept there, the imagery for there is that I want to be productive more than I want to be perfect. I want to put productivity over perfection as far as my objective, because I'm going to go back and try to make it really good anyway. But I can't get started with perfection in my mind. I have to get started with just doing something, just starting to write stuff down. And it does work. When you are sitting there and you don't know what you're going to say, how can I start this? That makes it just right and everything, it works, you just start writing. You start doing whatever it is that you're Doing, you take that first step, and then while you're doing that first step, you think the second step comes to you. And while you're doing the second step, the third step comes to you and you go along in that path. And so this one was like, oh, wow. This is probably when I was talking about how the guy was very observant and so forth. This was one of the ones I was like, okay, now that's very. That's real. That's a very, very, very insightful thing. Because it's something that so many, especially creatives, you know, so many people wrestle with. You know, when you're looking at something that's not there and then the next day something is there, it's very difficult because, you know, people like to do things that meets their own standards more than anything. And so, yeah, this one was, you know, this was a whole.
[00:33:49] Speaker B: Funny. You say that, and I appreciate you saying that. Cause it makes me realize as you're talking that you know my journey. I know we've joked around about me painting can.
And for the audience, I'm definitely a layman hobby guy. This is not a business at all for me.
There's a lot of real artists out there. But so let's say it's been about a year and a half, two years maybe, Right. And so obviously something I've done as an adult and was new. And as you're talking, it made me realize because at first I thought about a blank canvas, right? Like you're saying about when you're writing your briefs or whatever.
And sometimes that is the hardest place to be because it's blank.
[00:34:26] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:27] Speaker B: And my problem is similar to yours, which is I love art, so I'm kind of a critic of art.
But to me, artists is someone like Rembrandt or Da Vinci, like somebody actually paint like a portrait and something that looks great like that.
But the reason I bring it up is I used to have the same kind of issue looking at a blank canvas. Because in my mind I had thinking about Da Vinci, but then thinking, I can't do that. So there's an example, right? The idea of me failing at even being halfway decent at painting is one reason I didn't paid for so long. Because I literally would have the garage, I mean, the canvas in my garage, like for months. And I would sit there and get all ready and be excited and tell the wife, yeah, I'm gonna be in a garage. Don't bother me for a few hours. And I sit there and stare at the thing. And then in 10 minutes, I'm coming out, telling her I couldn't figure it out. Then I would have to stop. And finally one day, what I did was I just grabbed a brush and put it in some paint, and I just flicked it at the canvas, and that was it. And just to your point, like, that was like writing the sentence. I saw this speckle of paint on there, and I was like, all right, now I gotta do something.
[00:35:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: And that led into. The next time you come over, you'll see it on the wall. I'll show you that one. That was my first canvas ever. And as far as being an adult, not in, like, art school and in seventh grade. And that was it then. It's to your point. So one of the things that he alludes to is a concept he calls the paradox of choice.
And I think that's what we're talking about, is when you're sitting there with so many options in your head, and you're probably. You're not probably. I know for a fact of doing the show with you, you're definitely much more of a perfectionist than me. And I do appreciate that because that means we have a good product all the time. Because I'm the guy that would let half the stuff go and be like, don't worry about editing that.
Yeah. So.
But I think that's because you and my wife are very similar. She's like that perfectionist type with what she does.
And I find that sometimes it takes her a long time to get things done, because I think in her mind, there's so many choices of where this could go.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:29] Speaker B: So kind of like, you got to narrow it down. So that was one of the things I got out of this thing, too, is, you know, it has this concept of freedom through commitment.
[00:36:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:37] Speaker B: That by kind of saying no to a lot of the choices, limiting your scope of view, in a sense, and targeting on fewer things actually can make you happier. And then I wrote here in the margin of the book, 401k study in this section, because it's interesting.
In the financial world, there's been a lot of study of behavioral finance over the last, I'd say, 20 years. And one of the areas things that I just remember learning in my industry was they did a study on people on employees at, let's say, Fortune 500 companies.
You know, just a large pool of hundreds of thousands of employees in the United States with 401k choices. And they found that, like, the optimal amount of fund options in the retirement plan was, like, six to Eight. That was it.
Because you had all these plans that had, like, 25, 30 different fund choices and all that. And so the HR department and the company thought they were doing a great job and the right thing, which I would have thought, too, which is, yeah, hey, we're given diversity of choices and our employees. We've got big companies like Microsoft or McDonald's. Right. We got 50,000 employees. Everyone's a bit different. We should give them 30, 40 different options. In their 401k plan, what they found was when you give people that many, they actually don't do it.
Participation rate, sorry, was rock bottom.
But when you gave them like three to five choices, and that's why the optimal was like six to eight or something like that. But when you gave them a narrow amount of choices, people just picked something.
Think about in those. When you got 40 choices of where to invest your money for retirement, you don't pick any, and you kind of procrastinate. I'll get to it later. That's a lot of things. And da, da, da. And I don't want to. Maybe I should do this. Maybe it's confusing. I just don't want to do it. But what happens, your money actually never goes into the retirement plan to start working for you.
So I thought, even if you've only got eight funds and they're maybe not the greatest funds, they might be suboptimal.
The person that picked one just because it's a limited choice and say, okay, let me just go with this one.
Five years later, they're in a much better position for their retirement than the one person that had, you know, 40 different funds and did nothing.
[00:38:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:49] Speaker B: So it's just interesting. Like, that's what I thought of. I was like, wow, again, another example where that's not a new principle, because I've seen it in a 401k study. But he. The way that he discusses it and describes it hit me in a way that I hadn't realized a lot of things before. So we can go next one. Yeah, we're almost done. Yeah, we get. Well, the next one. Yeah. It segues into what we just said. It was freedom through commitment. Yeah, maybe I jumped the gun a bit too.
[00:39:16] Speaker A: But, yeah, I was gonna compliment you on your segue.
[00:39:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So segueing the page, I realized I'm on page 180 now. So sorry, audience. I got so excited, I jumped the gun.
[00:39:26] Speaker A: But that was it.
[00:39:27] Speaker B: I mean, basically. So I guess we got two in two in one conversation there. But.
[00:39:32] Speaker A: Well, I'll tell you this with the freedom through commitment and what you were just talking about.
[00:39:35] Speaker B: I got one for you when you finish, remind me to come back to it.
[00:39:37] Speaker A: Okay. What you just discussed, as far as too many options, I looked at that as the freedom through commitment also. And what you have is there is. And he talks about this. There is actually a lot to be obtained through depth and not always breadth.
A lot of times we look at a lot of options and having been able to cover so much ground as being more fulfilling. But it's easy to forget.
But it's very helpful in your day to day life to remember that there's a lot to be had in going deep. And you can't go deep on a bunch of things. You can only in order to go deep, in order for depth, you have to choose your spots, you have to have commitment, you have to be willing to say no to a lot of things. And this ultimately, I think gets to the title of the book and gets to where he was going, by and large, which it's actually, I didn't take from the book that you're supposed to not give a fuck.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:40:37] Speaker A: Yeah. It's actually just that you're very selective about what you give a fuck about.
[00:40:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:42] Speaker A: And so. And I thought the commitment thing really illustrated that. I think that that's something we can look at just humans and say, hey, there is something there.
There is a part of life that is really opened up from going deep with one person or with one small group, a family or something like that, as opposed to trying to be everything, to be everything to everyone.
And a lot of times, though, especially in our youth, I think we don't appreciate that. And so you hope that as you get older that the choices you've made in your youth or whatever it would be, allow you to still have access to some of those, some of that. The way to obtain happiness through. Again, through going deep and. As opposed to going broad.
[00:41:24] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and it's a great point you make. It makes me, you know, put here youth to wisdom. And that's. It's just a reminder that even reading this book, I felt like part of this whole thing about being alive. Right. Is like experience is important, so you gotta, you have to go through a few negative things, you know, in your life over time to realize kind of the gems in books like this. Right.
And to be able to reflect and comprehend. And it's funny because after finishing the book, because my son likes to read a lot and he's 22 now, he's in college, and I text him a picture of the COVID of the book because I thought he'd get a kick out of it. And just telling him that, you know, we, you know, I just read it and we're going to do the part on it. And then as I was thinking about it, I thought, it's interesting that I don't know if at his age I would have gotten what I got out of this book. Because, you know, you're just starting at 22. Yeah, you gotta kind of get your lumps a bit to reflect and say, yeah, you know, this is what I learned from this. This is what I learned from that.
[00:42:25] Speaker A: But he might get something else from it. And honestly, I like. You know, what's interesting to me is you sending him a picture of the COVID I would think the title would intrigue him more.
Like that's the type of thing, like, oh, what's this book?
[00:42:37] Speaker B: Well, that's the thing is maybe.
Cause I was around that age when I started reading Tony Robbins and some other things, and I think those.
Learning those things at that age, even though I hadn't had much experience yet, was still productive and helped me. And then also as I started having certain experiences, when I would come back to those kind of books, it was a good reminder, the concept that you bring.
[00:42:58] Speaker A: You've lived the younger parts and now you're in, you know, in a midlife area, and so you can look back to appreciate some perspective. But even when you're young, and I'm sure you were able to at the time too, you can still look forward in terms of the types of things that you would hope are important to you or the type of things more so that you want to work towards. So this book can be helpful as far as seeing or hearing, reading about someone else's perspective, someone else's context, the way someone else has tried to learn and what they've seen. And as you build your life as well, we can read now in our 40s and say, okay, yeah, I remember that stage and getting to this stage and everything. So I think that the perspective you come from will define in many ways what you take from it. But there still can be lessons because for all of us, we hope there is a tomorrow, and we hope that we can continue to grow and continue to set goals and to solve problems and so forth, because that's where we're going to get our happiness from. All right, man, wrap us up, man. Give us one more thing and we'll get out the door.
[00:44:01] Speaker B: So the last thing was the last chapter. And I say the whole chapter because the whole chapter was about the death of his friend when they were 19.
And it touched me a lot because I felt very similar feelings that he got at that early part of his life, which is probably what. Probably one of the catalysts that matured him to write this book in this way in his 30s, because, like I said, he did a great job. But when I was 37, I lost my mom, and we were very close. I'm an only child, and my parents got divorced when I was young. So, you know, my mom and I were very kind of. It was like, us against the world kind of thing when I was little. And we had a great friendship along with being, you know, obviously family. And so she passed away of bone cancer when I was 37. And it was a very surreal moment because I was alone with her in the hospital room when she took her last breath. And without getting all into the weeds of it, I remember just kind of contemplating over time, over months after her death, that the greatest gift she gave me in dying. You know, how mothers, great moms, always teach you something all the time. But even in her death, she gave me a gift. And the gift was she gave me was freedom.
Her death liberated me in a certain way. That. And that's the irony of life. I've realized that sometimes it does take losing things for you to understand and appreciate them. And I've thought about my own kids, that they probably won't really appreciate their mother and me until we're not here. Just like, you know, what happened to me. And my point is, James, is that, you know, watching my mother pass, and she was 70 years old at the time, and I'm 37 at the time, and my grandma had died when my grandma was 73, I kind of realized, you know, that was when it hit me, truly, that this is gonna end at some point, and I need to get off my duff and I need to. Whatever insecurities or fears I had of getting to, quote, unquote, the next levels and all that, they needed to go away because I realized, you know,
[00:46:04] Speaker A: my
[00:46:04] Speaker B: mom was literally halfway through her life. I mean, now that she's not here, we can say she was halfway through her life at 35. And those were all the things. I was sitting there literally in the hospital room, contemplating that stuff.
[00:46:13] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: Within minutes after her death, just sitting there, staring at her body and looking at her eyes were still open and like, wow, you know, she.
I'm older than she was when she was halfway through the journey. And at that time, she had no way that she was on the second half of the journey. And so I started thinking about, you know, what if I die in three weeks? What if I die in three years, 30 years? I need to. I need to make this count, whatever I have left on my journey.
And that's why, to me, that last chapter was so profound, because he got that lesson earlier in life than I did. You know, he was a teenager, and obviously he. In the book, you see that he still had to go through his own journey and discoveries, but that experience was something that his mind could always go back to. And that, I think, is what led him to become pretty much like, so mature at a young age, by his 30s, being able to write a book like this.
And I really appreciated reading it just because of my own experience. And I can say after reading it and then reflecting on my experience, he's right.
You know, the idea of understanding, truly understanding your mortality and facing it is actually very liberating.
And those are the things, you know, that I started my business after my mom passed because I was kind of done with corporate America and saying, you know, I've always wanted to do this. Now is my time, let's do it. Stop being scared. So, you know, not to get into my whole life on the show, but it's the idea that, you know, just finishing off what stuck out to me from the book. That last chapter, it stuck out to me for the reason I just mentioned, but it also helped frame the whole book because once you understood his own experience, you understood how he got to all the chapters before this book. So, yeah, that's.
[00:47:55] Speaker A: I would say, yeah. I mean, that was very powerful, just what you went through, as far as you drawing the analogy to your life. I read something like this, and for me, it is. I'm still trying to get my head around that, because I agree with you in my head. But to really center that in your body and your experience, to make that part of the fact that our own mortality, I mean, that's something, as you've pointed out as the great equalizer, every person alive is something we're all going to see at a certain point. And so much of what we do, he talks about creating legacy and so forth, and how that can lead you astray or that can be something that allows you to build better during your own life and to seek more of things that will fulfill you during your own life. And it's great to hear you talk about how, for you, that type of an experience could bring you to really going for the things that you always wanted and so forth. And so it's. I mean, it was impressive. I mean, I'll say that. Let me just say this, and I'll get back to you. But it was. To me, it was impressive to see someone, anyone. I mean, age notwithstanding, to see someone talk about the concept of mortality with the fact that that is something that you have to kind of come to grips with to really find your happiness and to keep your happiness. Because if that's something you're running from all the time, it creates an additional hurdle that you're trying to deal with at all times that you're not even really thinking about.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what's kind of fascinating about the way he put this, too. Made me realize he's right.
The whole compendium of human knowledge, existence, culture for thousands of years is kind of a subconscious expression of each of us as individuals, wanting to just make sure there's something that lasts past our physical state, whether it's how we raise our children, whether it is, you know, being the wealthier person in a society and leaving your money for other things and whatever it is, and anything within the middle of that is really who we are as humans and all that. So it's just kind of fascinating that he came to that conclusion in that chapter. So.
[00:50:18] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I just did. Last thing, man. Were there any concepts in the book that surprised you or that you thought were off base and if you had any, what and why?
[00:50:31] Speaker B: No, Good question, actually. So I'll say this. I didn't feel that there was any that were off base. Nothing that I read in here I really disagree with or thought that he was way off topic or off base. So I can't go there.
The one that stuck out to me was the law of avoidance, I think a little bit more just because, again, it was a good reminder that fear of success is something that also gets in our way.
[00:50:58] Speaker A: And I'm.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: You know, I said earlier that I don't think I do that, but I think it was one of those that were. When I was reading it, I kind of said, you put my own little mental kind of note in there today. You know, just make sure to do your maintenance check on yourself, you know, like, internally. Like, is there any of this that I'm suffering? You know, I think I'm so great that I don't have a fear of success, and I go get it. But let me check that one again. Let me do some digging further internally and make sure that I'm not unintentionally stifling my own growth because of some sort of fear like that. So I thought that one, to me, stuck out a lot. But nothing that I read that I thought was crazy or that I really disagreed with. I thought it was a great book, just as a whole.
[00:51:41] Speaker A: Yeah. And I thought I'd say what surprised me was, you know, he had a portion in here talking about emotions being overrated and, you know. Cause so much of our society is about, you know, being in touch with your emotions and so forth. And I'm not gonna give away the whole thing. Cause I know we wanted to get to an end here. But the. I thought that there's. That was an area and there were a few others that require some balance. It requires you to. Like, he is pushing back in a way. He's pushing back on an orthodoxy and the way we tend to look at these things.
But I would say you don't want to go to an extreme on the other side as well. And so with some of these. And like I said, that would be one where I like motions are overrated. They are overrated. But to some that might mean, okay, well, then you shouldn't be interested in your emotions at all. You shouldn't be listening to what your emotions are saying at all. And that's not really true either. Now, your emotions will betray you. Your emotions will send you down the wrong track sometimes. And you need to be aware of that. And so I do think that because the book was intended to be counterintuitive, intended to be. To push back on what everyone, quote, unquote, is saying right now. And that if you take it the wrong way, then you might go too far in the other direction. And so I thought that. And so that may depend on how you are able to balance that. It may be individual for each person. You know, how they're able to balance that. But it does take some ability to look at it. And I guess if you add in his chapter that you are wrong about everything and so am I, then that'll help you balance it and just say, okay, well, yes, look at that.
Chomp it over a little bit, and then figure out how much of that you want to incorporate as opposed to saying, okay, this is 100% all the time with everything.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: And so that's what I like about him, is he's smart enough to put the so am I in parentheses, meaning because he, you know, I thought about that. I was like, you know, that's a pretty aggressive title. If you just say you're wrong about everything. But the fact he says so am I is kind of inviting. Like, all right, let me check you out.
[00:53:46] Speaker A: Yeah, well, but it also prevents him from undermining his whole point. Yeah, exactly, because that's the point.
[00:53:52] Speaker B: That's what I mean. He's smart. I like.
[00:53:55] Speaker A: So cool. Well, no, it was an enjoyable book overall. I mean, enjoyable enough that we thought it was worth doing a podcast.
[00:54:00] Speaker B: I'm laughing because I'm looking at his book now, and I'm like, I like him. I want to read his other book. And it's just for the audience. The title of his other book is Everything Is, and It's a Story of Hope. Yes. Yeah, I think we'll have to read that one, too.
[00:54:14] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:54:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Cool.
[00:54:15] Speaker A: Well, we appreciate everybody for joining us as we meander through this and, you know, until next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:54:22] Speaker B: I'm Tunde Walana.
[00:54:23] Speaker A: All right. Subscribe, rate, review, and we'll talk to you next time.
