Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: In this episode, we discuss a section from the book Sapiens and consider whether the agricultural revolution was the biggest double cross humans ever faced, at least until the artificial intelligence revolution.
Hello, welcome to the Call Like I See it podcast.
Hi, I'm James Keys, and joining me today is a man who has 99 problems, but this podcast ain't one. Tunde Ogunlana Tunde Ready to get the dirt off your shoulders and give us a public service announcement?
Man, I don't know what to say to that one, so let's just have a show.
But I like it, though, because this isn't one of my problems. So that's good.
Correct. There we go. There we go. On the nose, man. On the nose.
Now, before we get started, if you enjoy the show, I ask that you subscribe, like the show on YouTube or your podcast app. Doing so really helps the show out. We're recording on October 27, 2026, and we continue our culture series today by doing some reading between the lines in the book Sapiens, written by Yuval Harari and first published in 2011, but it was first published in English in 2014.
The book, as the subtitle indicates, endeavors to provide a brief history of humankind, which, you know, is kind of a expansive thing, at least from our perspective, you know, dating back a few million years. Now, granted, the planet is billions of years old, but the stuff where people are keeping track of stuff, you know, so to speak, is humankind and so forth. And it's no exaggeration because it does go all the way back to the Stone Age.
Now, today we're going to focus on part two of the book, which discusses the time when humans began farming and this Homo sapiens began farming, and how, following agriculture, humans were able to develop large, organized societies and what drove a lot of that.
So Tunde, to get us started, in reading about the book's discussion on the agricultural revolution and the luxury trap as he turns in there, what did you find most compelling?
[00:02:19] Speaker B: The most compelling thing is that agriculture made humanity miserable.
That's what I found compelling. And obviously I know I have to explain that to the audience. If you have,
[00:02:28] Speaker A: yeah, tell us what you mean.
[00:02:30] Speaker B: But. But no, I mean, it's. It's because it's. It's counterintuitive because we don't know anything other than living in a world that we live in with farms and with large societies and all that. So I'm not advocating that 8 billion people try and go be hunter gatherers. I'm not advocating that. But what I Am advocating is the book Rip made a great point about.
Basically we as humans evolved to climb trees and chase gazelles and do all the stuff he said.
But as farming became more of an industry to keep humans sustained in larger and larger societies, humanity began to solve the needs of humans living in proximity. So many people in different ways.
Some of it was hierarchical. So they talk about things like Hammurabi's code all the way to the Bill of Rights as examples, which definitely I know we'll get into in this conversation. And then the other, though, to me, which is a good learning when I first read the book, was the type of bodily injuries that humans sustained from pushing plows and carrying big stones from here to there and trying to irrigate water systems and all these things that the human body actually was not designed to do. And so that, to me, was the first enlightenment for me to feel like, wow, that's interesting. Actually, humans were. Are actually. I mean, it's like I knew this intellectually, but it kind of, you know, this book helped me really internalize it, that humans are in our natural state is in like a forest, right? Like in just in the wild. And the way that we live, starting around 8, 9, 10,000 years ago with it, with the beginning of agriculture to today, is actually an unnatural way for humanity to live. And it doesn't surprise me why we're filled with all these anxieties and triggers and all these other things that we don't really see in the animal kingdom.
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Well, I have to correct you though. It's not that it's unnatural because it occurs naturally, but it's just not what we were evolved to do in that sense. Because he actually made a point in the book to talk about what was this idea of natural versus unnatural and something that your mouth may have naturally evolved to allow you to consume food, but that doesn't mean that talking out of your mouth is unnatural. It's just something else you can do with it. But even though that wasn't the evolutionary purpose, the thing about the agricultural revolution that stood out to me was the trapdoor nature of it. So with every.
The point is made that humans didn't one day operate as hunters and gatherers, and then the next day operate, you know, as farmers. But it was something that happened over time. Maybe, you know, you're gathering a certain seed and you're carrying it places, and then along the route you're. You're carrying it, you're dropping stuff, and then along that route things start growing and then you keep coming back There. And then you start saying, okay, well, yeah, maybe I'll. I'll throw some, you know, as a part of my practice. But nonetheless, as people started growing food, they needed to stay in one place to manage that. And the food doesn't pop up the next day, so you have to stay in one place. It also created surplus, which allowed you to have more kids and so forth. Now more of your kids died, but you still could overcome that. And so. But the trapdoor nature, meaning that along each step, once you started to know, hey, along this path, I got a lot of things that fell out of my arms and are now growing that I can go back to food, then I gotta stay around there if I wanna take advantage of that. So I can't go back to just dipping out, you know, and being gone from that for two years and then maybe swing back later. And so. And then after I start having more kids, I become. I can't just keep moving around. One of the discussions was when you're hunter gathering, you have kids maybe every three years, you know, because everybody has to be mobile, you know, but when you're in agriculture, you have a kid every year, and you need those hands to go out and to work the fields and so forth. So a family that has kids year after year after year can't operate as a hunter and gatherer. So every step taken prevented you from going back. And so then you get to this point, you know, a few steps down the road, and you can't even remember how you used to do things when you were a hunter gatherer. And so it creates. And then he also explicitly talks about what's called a luxury trap, which I'm not going to get into right now, but just, again, it's the trapdoor nature of these things that once you once, once you become accustomed to doing things one way that change you, you then change how you operate in ways that prevent you from doing things the way you used to do it beforehand, which was agriculture. And then. And then kind of cheekily, he says, you know, the question is, did humans, you know, like, domesticate wheat or did wheat domesticate humans? And now we're just doing wheat spins, spending all our day. Now, again, we're specialized beyond everybody being a farmer now, but nonetheless, the farmer spends all his day caring for wheat. Wheat doesn't spend all his day caring for the farmer.
The wheat was a localized grass in the Middle east somewhere. Now it's worldwide.
It's the biggest success story in the history of the planet. Bigger than us even.
It's just an interesting way to look at it.
[00:07:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I said the same thing about farm animals, that,
[00:07:40] Speaker A: yeah, chickens. I
[00:07:41] Speaker B: think at the time of him writing the book, like you said in 2011, he said there was 25 billion chickens in the world. I'm sure that's a bigger number because we have more people to feed now.
And the amount, I think 1.8 billion cattle, all that. And it's interesting because he said basically we eat humans. 80% eat the same kind of stuff. Chicken, cattle, fish, you know, only a certain species of fish, you know, maybe a five fish, you know, species, things like that. So I found all that very interesting. To your point about the idea that maybe the crop domesticated us. Yeah, and that and that and that kind of like you're saying this trapping of luxury. And some of that is also the idea of. Because I see that today in the modern world. I mean you joked earlier about AI but I find myself even in this short period of time of just using a language learning model like ChatGPT or Gemini.
How quickly my brain can be lazy and just go to that thing and start asking just for all these answers and do a bit less research. Because I used to maybe look at six or seven different articles to get to feel like I got a full range of information.
And now I'll just go to this little thing, right? And so that's an example.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: You looked at enough things to kind of form your own conclusion. Whereas now you can look to AI and say you look at all you look. Instead of looking at 6, you look at 60, you tell me the conclusion, which is risky, you know.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: No, but you're right. But the reason I just bring it up is it's a trap. It's a luxury trap. It makes my life easier, makes it more convenient, da da da da da. And then, you know, I can pay for it. Like you're saying that I could be ill informed or I could, you know, blah blah, blah. So same thing.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: But the trap nature of it might be five years from now, if you wanted to then go do it the old fashioned way, you wouldn't even be. You'd be so out of practice. 1. Okay, well what did I used to do? I used to go look at a couple of these things and then synthesizing all that information much longer.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: No, I'm going to tell you a real story. It's already happened. So I. About a year and a. In a year and a half ago, I started incorporating an AI note taker into my business.
So when I have meetings like this on zoom or something with a client. I'm just talking now. And the note taker takes his notes and then it does all its stuff, goes to my CRM, all that.
So this happened a couple months ago. Like the rare time that I didn't have, like I was in an in person meeting, but it was with a client. So I knew I needed to capture the information. So I found myself taking notes on the yellow pad, man.
It was like I thought, man, how do I used to do this? Like I'm sitting here trying to. Seriously, it was funny. I was like, man, I'm trying to focus on what this person's saying. But I got to look down and write and I got to do it. And I thought, I started thinking myself, how did I used to do this so easily? And it's funny, James, we're talking like a year and a half.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:19] Speaker B: And I'm talking. I'm 48. I've been doing in this, my same industry for 26 years. Yeah. So this is something I've been doing yellow pad note taking while having a meeting for 25 years.
And for the one year I didn't do it, I try and do it again and I can already feel it. My brain is like, nah, man, we don't like this. So that's the point of a luxury trap. Going back to the discussion is.
Yeah. When you can just get food and all that, you know, because you've got maybe once the society got sustained enough where now you have hierarchies. So not everybody's farming, but you have some elites in the system right now. Do you think they want to go into forest and start hunting and gathering? No. So what are they going to do is they're going to create new reasons and ideas as to why we need to keep this system.
That the farmer's back hurts because he's pushing stuff on the plow and the other guy was farming, his knees hurt and all that. But we got to create a new order, right. To make sure that, that, that this stays in place, which is a little bit different than being a hunter gatherer. So one of the things I just want. Oh God, I just got one. Okay.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: I wanted to, I want to specifically give, you know, just because we've mentioned a couple times the idea of the luxury trap. What it is basically is that once, once luxuries, you start having them regularly. They you're in your mind, they end up becoming necessities. And so then it's like you, you need this. What used to be a luxury as opposed to it being something you appreciate, you take it for granted, you just have to have it. And so things that, you know, like you might do something and it makes sure it's supposed to make your life easier, but it brings all these other things that you have to do with it, like agriculture. You know, you got to plow the fields, you got to do all this other stuff. But you get used to having endless food, so, or not endless, but so much food. And then you start to rely on that, that endless food feeds more kids and you have more kids and then you need it. And so it just becomes this.
Where your life may have been much simpler and easier, you might have much more free time as a hunter gatherer, but as you change your life, the extra benefits that agriculture provided you changed your life in a way that those extra benefits were no longer extra anymore. They were then required. And you then had to require, you were required to put in more effort to continue to grow. You know, so it's this kind of, it's a trap door, you know, but go ahead.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and that's why I think you're right in your earlier kind of premise at the beginning that agriculture was one example of a trap long term, and an AI could be the next trap. You know, it could, this society doesn't collapse 500 years from now. Everybody could be, you know, on that. So the bottom line is, is I think, I think that is those are the main areas of, from the agriculture side that
[00:12:57] Speaker A: you mentioned something that I want to go into, and you talked about how the, the elites will create. They, they, if, as the demands of society come up, you know, as you have a hierarchical society, and then they create these demands, they create reasons that neat things need to happen. First off is reasons for them to be in power, which I'll touch on. You know, I want to touch on later. But the idea, one of the things in this talked about the idea of imagined orders. And honestly this sounded a lot like culture to me, you know, like, and what this imagined orders are, you talked about like you have actual realities. Like if you throw a ball up, it'll fall down to the ground. That'll happen whether you're watching or not, whether we agree that it'll happen or not, it's going to happen in that way. But he introduced the term intersubjective reality, which is something that may or may not be actually true. But if multiple people believe it and act upon it, then it becomes something that becomes a truth. And this could be like money or Laws, you know, like those don't exist in nature. But if multiple people believe that, that a dollar is worth, you know, blank, then I can go use it. But within that group of people and just like, like it was a piece of gold, you know, so to speak. So these imagined realities, but these imagined realities create all types of things, and ultimately what they allow people to do is cooperate with people they don't know in very large numbers, which gave human, which gave humans a leg up. If you go back far enough on other human species, you know, the, the Homo erectus or, you know, the, the Neanderthals or the Denisovans or whatever, the ability to cooperate in larger and larger groups was one of the big things that gave humans the leg up also against animals that have naturally more power and are deadlier than us. If we cooperate in large enough groups through these imagined orders, then we're able to get the leg up on them. But it was something that was really interesting when you think about not necessarily the arbitrariness of it, but the necessary, the necessity of it in terms of everything that we do. Everything that when we're interacting with each other, are based in large part on these imagined orders, whether it be the, you know, again, the nation or the state or whatever, or the money we use, anything like that. And so to you, you know, what stand out, what stood out to you in that, in terms of the power and the use of these imagined orders, you know, that really, you know, are a part of the story of humans taking over the world?
[00:15:20] Speaker B: I mean, I think that was it, man, that, that the imagined orders, like you said, are really what allowed humans to do large scale collective endeavors together. And I think that the chapter of this part of the book was called Building Pyramids.
And his premise was, how do you get millions of people, hundreds of thousands of people, whatever, to kind of go in one direction together?
And that's the point you're bringing up is the idea of an imagined order. And so,
[00:15:52] Speaker A: and so in the pyramid's case, it's this imagined order that the pharaoh is the embodiment of God and that you have all these other gods that you know, that you, hey, you worship this God, but all of this stuff is happening so that we need to have this pyramid built. And so the individual might get a raw deal out of that, but he thinks that he's a part of, he believes that he's a part of some grander thing, that he's willing to get the raw deal, so to speak, in that. So that the, the Entire group who's all part of this intersubjective reality. This imagined order can prevail in the end. You know, it creates this. This concept that you sacrifice for, that you work hard for, that is, you know, in your head, so to speak.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's the interesting thing about the kind of trajectory of all this from the agriculture. Because I think one of the things he mentioned that I found really enlightening in.
Once agriculture became kind of something set in place and that humans now had. Were stationary and had to think differently, which was the idea of the future.
[00:16:56] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:56] Speaker B: Thinking about seasons, droughts, floods, all that. And that created the need to do things like maybe store a little bit more grain if you figured out what. How things are going to go, which then this is how these. Imagine. I'm explaining the imagined orders and how the need for them. Because to your point, when. When I gave the example earlier about, hey, one of the things agriculture did was create a stratified human society, right. It created hierarchies because you had farmers, you had warriors to protect that part of land, right? Yeah. Once
[00:17:26] Speaker A: you start storing the grain or once you start having these fields, you need people with guns, but you need people to stand on those borders.
[00:17:34] Speaker B: Correct. And so. And then who's going to control them? Right? Because if you got a bunch of warriors and a bunch of farmers and they start arguing, then the
[00:17:40] Speaker A: farmers
[00:17:41] Speaker B: might not
[00:17:41] Speaker A: eat,
[00:17:42] Speaker B: or. Oh, no, the warriors might not eat, or the farmers might not
[00:17:45] Speaker A: eat. Farmers might not eat at least.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: Or. Or so someone's gonna have to be at the top of that, which became the idea of either an empire, emperor or king or someone, or a war maybe that started as a warlord early on or whatever. So the idea is that this agriculture, and I think that to me was part of this whole section of the book, was one of the main parts I got from it and rereading it, which was just agriculture alone, is what kind of spun off all of this other stuff that became the societies and the stuff that we know now as humanity and human culture, really. And so going back now to the idea of imagined order is. Yeah, we need to. Now put it. We need to keep these larger groups of people together so that they.
What is it, James, that the science and the studies show us that humans as individuals can keep about 100 to 150 relationships?
And after that they kind of start, you know, so that's why traditionally hunter. Hunter gatherer groups usually were under that number. Because once you have more than about 150 people in a Group.
Yeah. And you used to use the term, you can also develop what are called freeloaders. You know, people that kind of can. Well,
[00:18:56] Speaker A: you will, but you'll have no way to deal with. You'll have no way to. To mitigate the effects of freeloaders once it gets too big. And then also. Yeah, people no longer feel a connection to the same group once it gets too big. Like, there are all different factors psychologically that happen. It's the same. It's the same phenomenon you see with. With other animals, you know, whether it be a pride or a pack or something, that for every animal, there's a certain number or threshold that they really can't hang out in. Longer. Bigger than that. You know, all pack animals and humans, it's about 100, 150. And then what. This is just. Again, this is, you know, the kind of thing that's just been observed over time. Once you get out, once you get beyond that, then naturally the group will split because it just. You can't keep that many relationships in mind. You can't, you know, gossip about that many people, you know, go into another book and so forth.
[00:19:43] Speaker B: Yeah,
[00:19:43] Speaker A: there's something I wanted to get into. Did you have anything else on that, on the imagined orders or something else?
[00:19:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, go ahead. I was going to get into Hammer's code and some of these things, but we can keep. Well,
[00:19:53] Speaker A: but the thing that really. We recently did a show talking about how culture had. The use and development of culture had kind of allowed humans to conquer the world much, much, much faster than genetics would have allowed humans to do. So if humans had to move to a place and then slowly adapt from a genetic standpoint to be able to thrive in that pace, it would have taken millions of years to do it. And. But humans were able to do it in thousands of years because. Not because their genetics changed, but because through culture, they were able to adopt behaviors in ways of cooperating that allowed them to master that area, whether it be a desert or whether it be a rainforest or whether it be the tundra or, you know, any type of thing.
What that really sounded, when I go back and read this now, and I'm like, oh, man, this imagined order thing seems to interplay a lot with culture, because that is like, those are these cultural frameworks. This is how we do things. This is how you fit in. This is the hierarchy that we're in, you know, and this person does this and this person does that, and you're in this place.
Those are things that allow humans to operate Efficiently with others and efficiently with others. I walk into a room, I know, okay, here's the person in charge, here's the person that does this if this needs to be done. Here's the person that needs, that does that. I'm the one who's supposed to do blank. And so I could not know a single person in that room. And we can all carry out our tasks, whether that be fly a plane or whether that be till a field and you know, whatever. And so like we can the, the use of imagined orders as a part of, you know, in creating culture, you know, this, this interplay of that with culture seems to be a big part of the human story and maybe one that we don't think about as much. But this is religion, you know, this, this is all of these things that allow people to more than one person, a large group of people to believe the same thing and then have something in common. But that thing doesn't exist outside of their mind, so to speak. That, but that connection, just because it doesn't exist outside of their, outside of their minds doesn't mean it's not a powerful and a powerful connection and something that can really make a difference in the world. So to me, this is also a part of the story of how human beings, they're human beings. And I say human beings, I'm talking Homo sapiens, not the other Homo species that had exist, you know, for a couple million years, but homo sapiens last 100,000 years or so or a little bit more than that. But the Homo sapiens, this is the secret sauce, so to speak, you know, that that allows us to do this. And so to me, it's really fascinating that the imagined order piece of it, when you look at it like that, and like you said, this comes as a result of agriculture. We were hunter gatherers a long time and the level of imagined orders were much smaller scale. But once you start having the agriculture and you start having more and more people together, necessity required more intricate imagined orders which then built and built and built. And then we have imagined orders now that are, that are global, you know, like in terms of different things, what you know, that we take advantage of and use, so to speak. So anything else. But because I do want to get to the part you specifically noted about how there's no justice in history. Did you want to comment on? Because that's one of the. It's a whole, but it gets into a concept of no justice and
[00:23:04] Speaker B: no, but I want to just finish off on the imagined order because just I Want to talk about two that he mentioned? He went in because Hammurabi's code is one of the oldest preserved, I would say imagined orders. Right.
It was a rule of how to run a society in Mesopotamia. It
[00:23:23] Speaker A: was a legal code.
Laws, legal codes are imagined orders.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: Yep. And so that's my point is saying that. And the interesting thing is that was they estimate around 1754 B.C. but he says 1776 B.C. and then he bookends it with looking at the American Constitution and you know, as. As coming out of the 1776 Revolution AD and so, and so with the. And the idea of the imagined order as we relate it to the agriculture is again, we talk. He talks about like the idea of storing grain, right. So once you store grain, then you got to start counting how many jars you have. So then the idea of that's what creates mathematics, the need to keep records.
Then you have cuneiform and writing. So by the time we can read how people were organizing societies, and that is represented in this conversation by Hammurabi's code, he had. I mean, that code had laws, like you're saying, for everything, if you kill a slave, it's this much. But if you kill the fetus of a slave woman, is this much of your punishment. But
[00:24:27] Speaker A: if you kill specifically, just more broadly, it delineated different classes of people.
You know, you had a master, you had the commoner, commoner, you had the servant or the slave. You know, those three classes of people. And then there were men and women, which also had worked different classes of each of these. So that's like six delineations already. And each one it assigned values to. Like if you do something. Hammurami's code, by the way, is the one that everybody's heard. The eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, like it came out of that.
But yeah, like so. And he contrasts, and I just want to give this big kind of overriding.
He contrasts that with the American Bill of Rights and Declaration of Independence and so forth, which at least on paper this wasn't the practice, but on paper declares all men are created equal.
But both of the codes said that Hammurami's code and the Bill of Rights both referenced how God is the one who set this.
These laws are coming from God, it's not coming from just some guy, which is a part of justifying, legitimizing the imagined order and so forth. So he contrasted how they each set up or. And they each kind of delineated this imagined order and how things were going to operate in that society. And they were completely different, you know, completely. But they, they. The similarities of them in terms of where they were from and so. Or how they were said they were from. Is interesting how, again, you're trying to put this framework that everybody in the society can buy into and then therefore work together.
[00:25:47] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, think about what all this, everything you're saying represents. I mean, I found Hammurabi's code, some of these things, fascinating because it made me realize, like, think about what people, Human beings were. Human beings, like you said that the people were dealing with the same things, you know, that they're dealing with today. How do I deal with the guy down the street that just, you know, knocked the other guy out and took his plow? Right. Do we just let him take it?
Do we let the other guy hit him back in the eye, like, you know, so that's the interesting thing. And then the point you make is great that he contrasts it with the system created. And what I liked is he called these things operating manuals. He said Hammurabi's code was an example of an operating manual. And the U.S. constitution is an example of a different type of operating manual. But one of the things that he said which makes me feel like the way that the Bill of Rights is written is why we're.
It's that ever, you know, the more perfect union thing that is never set in stone is because he did say that hierarchy is a way for large group. In large groups for people to know how to deal with each other and the other. So you don't have to know somebody on an individual level. You just need to know where they are cast in the system.
And then people can deal with each other without having to know each other because they, you know, they approach each other from a cultural lens based on the cast. And so I thought about it, and he said in the. In the thing, he said, all men are created equal. But they weren't thinking of Negroes when they wrote that.
So the point is, is that that's an example of our imagined order in the United States, where the operating manual was written a certain way. But for the last 250 years, we've had other humans in this, in this, in this imagined order trying to fight and say, hey, no, no, we're. We're part of this too. We're men too, and we're created equal and all this stuff. And so at some point, right, this imagined order will change enough that whatever was written back then will be totally unrecognizable. But Today, it's still held on to by different pockets of our culture. And I think that explains a lot of why we feel at least the tensions that we still feel today. Because this is an imagined order which has not been settled. And maybe this is how life is always for humans. It's never settled.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, that's a part of it as well, you know, that none of these things would be settled settled. I mean, how firm of a grip. I mean, one other thing about the imagined order of the United States is that it's meant to. And how to evolve it, how to change it is written into the document as well. So it's meant to be able to expand or contract with in accordance with how large majorities of the people would like things to be at a given time. You know, like not small majorities, but larger majorities. The last thing I'll say on this is one of the most interesting things about the idea of the imagined orders is that. And I mentioned this to you offline because it was really fascinating, if you want to change or alter the imagined order that you live in, or get rid of the imagined order that you live in, one of the biggest insights is that you can't just take it apart. You have to actually replace it with something else. And so. And that's something we can observe all the time in our society, where it's never just. Well, the people who are effective are never just the ones that say, hey, let's just get rid of this one thing. It's always, we have to put forth this other thing that will. You may not say the subtext, but the subtext being to replace this other thing. So, you know, any last thoughts before we close it up
[00:29:08] Speaker B: now? I mean, this was good stuff. I.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: But, I mean, keep going.
[00:29:12] Speaker B: That's why I say no.
[00:29:14] Speaker A: Before the. Before this part in the book, they talked about the hunter gatherer human beings and what was the cognitive revolution, you know, which is talked about. And then after this, it was a lot more, you know, kind of the medieval and development all the way to modern times and so forth. So it was a lot of interesting stuff. But the transition from human beings of, you know, if you look at, you know, Stone Age and ancients, to kind of how you get to the modern Runway that we've been on. This was the part that really dealt with that. So it was really interesting to
[00:29:44] Speaker B: read that. I do have one more, James, actually, I thought about it, which is this idea of the divine influence and maybe going back to part two of the kind of Imagined order, that the divine influences this, the way that the society and the hierarchy is established.
That's something I never thought of prior to reading the book, but I had to acknowledge that. Wow.
It is true that even the Constitution, they talk about our God given rights and the idea of alluding to a higher power to try and get people to think of some bigger ideal. And I think of today, one way that our domestic politics, that one party is behaving is we're seeing a lot of images of the leader with Jesus Christ. And I think this idea of trying to merge, that this is an ordained situation and that's why it's okay to follow this. And I think, you know, I, I didn't appreciate that part until, you know, revisiting this in the book. So. No,
[00:30:44] Speaker A: it's two words, man. It's buy in. You know, like what can you do to get large numbers of people to buy in to whatever it is that you're trying to get them to buy into? And that's, that's something that's as old as human beings being all, you know, a bunch of human beings in the same. Anything more than, you know, I guess anything more than 150, you know, because you can, people can buy into just that smaller group kind of just from a genetic standpoint. But anything bigger than that, you got to have things that intersubjective, they can be intersubjective, that we all buy into, you know, and that's how we can all ideally pull in the same direction. You know, United States is very interesting because half of the time people aren't pulling in the same direction, you know, but it's still kind of continues on if we all. The, the buy in is supposed to be the Constitution, you know, so we'll see how long that lasts, but I think we can wrap from there. We appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call Like I see it. Subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what you think, send it to a friend. Till next time. I'm James Keys.
[00:31:39] Speaker B: I'm Tunde.
[00:31:41] Speaker A: All right, we'll talk.
I.
