Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: In this episode, we react to Drake's accusations that the Universal Music Group and Spotify conspired to illegally boost Kendrick Lamar's Not Like Us hit single this year.
Later on, we'll also consider whether the label Ultra Processed Foods is being used too, generally, specifically in reference to things like meat substitutes like Impossible or beyond burgers. And lastly, we'll weigh in on the controversy involving Trinity Rodman and her father, which quote is by blood but nothing else. Dennis Rodman.
Hello. Welcome to they Call It Like I See a Podcast. I'm James Keys, and joining me today is a man whose takes can be sharp enough to go down in battle rap lore. Tunde. Ogonlana Tunde. Are you planning to just hit him up today, or are you more in a soul eating like ether kind of mindset?
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Man, I think I'll hit him up.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: All right. Direct, straight shot. Let's go. Yeah, yeah. All right. All right. Now, before we get started, if you enjoy the show, I ask that you subscribe and hit, like, on YouTube or your podcast platform. Doing so really helps the show out.
We're recording on December 23, 2024, and over the last month, we've seen legal filings exchanged between Drake, Universal Music Group, who's the distributor of Kendrick Lamar's 2024 Not Like Us hit single, and Spotify. It's not a full lawsuit yet, but essentially the filings are a part of an effort by Drake to really dig into what, when legal parlance, take discovery, but really dig into from a factual standpoint and investigate whether Universal and Spotify work together to inflate the profile and the numbers of Not Like Us, which was, you know, Lamar's big, big, huge single, you know, one of the biggest songs of 2024. And using things like bots and payola, you know, like payola being the old school way and then bots being kind of a new school way. Now, Universal and Spotify have denied these allegations, and then in addition to this, Drake's also alleging defamation. But for this discussion, we're going to really focus more on the kind of illegal boosting claims. So, Tunde, to get us started, you know, just your initial thoughts, you know, on Drake accusing Universal and Spotify to boost Not Like Us in ways that are kind of underhanded and. Or, you know, just kind of. It wasn't organic, so to speak.
[00:02:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I find this. Look, it's interesting because, like you said, the word is accusation.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:02:44] Speaker B: So that's. That's what makes it interesting. Obviously, he has a right to bring A case like this, if he feels that they have done something nefarious behind the scenes, obviously in this case, with the algorithms. So in this. In this sense, I think it is valid that he brings this, this. This case. However, I do also feel like it looks like he's a little bit crying. Sour grapes.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's his question. Is this sour grapes or is he really on to something, so to speak?
[00:03:15] Speaker B: Yeah, like. Like. Like, I feel like, unfortunately for him, because I'm. I'm pretty neutral in this one. I'm, you know, I'm of the generation of Biggie and Tupac, that beef. So I'm looking at this one like, oh, man, the kids are fighting. You know, Like, I feel like I'm not. I feel like I'm not in this one. Like, I was, you know, 30 years ago, not in that one.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Not emotionally.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: Yeah, not emotionally, but. But being on the outside of it, looking in, it appears that Kendrick Lamar got the best of him in this last year or so of this cultural beef between both men, and that this may be Drake's way of. Instead of accepting the loss and moving on and coming back to fight another day if he wanted to, or just, you know, taking surrender as your tactic and just being done with it, he seems to want to come back and fight this way, which is very interesting. So, yeah, it's not.
[00:04:05] Speaker A: This isn't how, you know, like. And again, this is. Maybe this is progress because this isn't how Tupac and Biggie's beef ended. You know, that's interesting.
[00:04:13] Speaker B: I guess. That is progress. Yeah. They're not shooting each other.
[00:04:15] Speaker A: This is. Yeah, very 21st century now.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: They're all. They're all wealthy enough just to get a bunch of lawyers, I guess.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: Yeah. Moving to the courts now. That's what's going to happen with rap beats. Rap beats, they go out of the streets to the court.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: No, you're right. Rap has matured now. It's now white collar. So, yeah, it's all corporate.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: No, that's funny. I. And I'll tell you this, like, my initial kind of thought on this was like, yeah, why would Drake want to keep this stuff in the headlines? Like, he took the L from a perception and just kind of numbers standpoint. And so you would think he would want to just kind of move the discussion past this, come out with some new music that was good and, you know, then kind of just kind of reclaim whatever he was doing or try to get back on the trajectory he was on already.
But it hit the nature of the allegations really hit me a little different in this sense. Like, it's very specific without him having actual evidence. Meaning, like, it's not like he has the smoking gun saying, yeah, yeah, here's the email from the guy at Spotify saying, okay, yeah, we rigged it so that everybody's, you know, everybody's Spotify. This is going to be the song that comes up, you know, in the top first five songs of Explore or whatever, you know, whatever like that. So he doesn't have, like, the specific smoking gun, but they're very specific allegations. So what? It made me think maybe this dude is a whistleblower in this sense. More so, like, yeah, I'm sure there's sour grapes involved here, but maybe this is the stuff that he's aware of. Universal is his record label too. Maybe he's aware of kind of how you can go about Universal and. Or Spotify or in whoever else goes about inflating numbers and boosting the profile of using underhand tactics or tactics that aren't. That aren't legal. This is how they do it. So he might be like, oh, well, they were doing. We were doing this together. They were doing this for me for all these years. And this is how they. This is what they explained to me that they were doing. Maybe they did this for Kendrick. In this instance, they used. You know, they turned this lion as beast and then turned it against me. And so that, to me, is when it's so specific but without the actual smoking gun. It's like, well, how did you get this level of. Okay, well, here's, you know, this is the. The bots and this. And it's like, yo, you know a lot about this. You're like, you know, if someone were to do something like this, you seem to know exactly how they would. And so maybe. Maybe that's what's happening here, you know, so that, to me, that's where I went, like the second jump, basically, after the. And I think it's both, obviously. I think if he. If he had won the rap beef, I'm sure he wouldn't have done this. You know, he'd been like, yeah, yeah, go. Go rig the numbers for me some more, you know. But, yeah, now it's like, oh, you out here calling people out.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: I want to come back to that. Because you said something. I want to come back to, but real quick, because you said something else that I want to hit on now.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Which is that I got. I got going there.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Yeah, no, because it made me think of Elon Musk buying Twitter, when you said that just now about Drake, which is because it's something similar. You're right. If, if it's kind of the game, which is Elon Musk makes the public claim that he was buying Twitter because they were messing around with free speech. Right?
[00:07:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: And they were. And they were manipulating their algorithms and all that.
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:18] Speaker B: And he buys it and he does exactly the same thing. But, yeah, he amps up. Yeah. But just so you got to manipulate the algorithm. He's like, yeah, let me show you guys how to actually do properly and not even hide it. So you're right. Maybe there's something there where he just. Like Elon Musk, he understood the, the, the nature of this, these, these systems, the AI system, the algorithms, all that. And he understood that. Well, be. Now, since I'm on the outside now and I don't have my hands on it, I can't control it and manipulate it the way I want. The differences specifically, it's being used against.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Me instead of to my benefit.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Correct. And the difference is Elon Musk, being the wealthiest guy in the world, could afford to spend $44 billion, buy the whole platform. Drake can't buy UMG and the whole music industry. You know, Spotify that.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: So. So, but if he could, maybe he would behave like that and just say, let me buy Spotify and then let me just tweak the algorithm. And it's going to be. Because think about it. You got to opt out of getting Elon Musk's posts. Now, if you're on X or Twitter, you know, this guy Drake could have done it where if you got a Spotify account, you know, you're forced to get all his music in your. In your thing, whether you want it or not. Right. Like, it's, it's an interesting thing about getting. Being this gatekeeper right.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: To this information that. To me.
Well, but let me just say this real quick. I know you had one more.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: Because then I want to finish my other point.
[00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah, but that, to me, actually. And this. That's where my next. And I'll get to you before I get. But that's where I'm going to go with this next. Is that this really is ultimately like. Yeah, it's sour grapes. I wonder if he has kind of inside info and maybe these techniques were used to his benefit before. And all that stuff aside, this is actually a shot. We did a book where we did a podcast and we read the book Techno Feudalism, earlier this year, 2024, and it really went in that this gatekeeping and this algorithmic curation function and how much power that gives the. The. The. The. The person who controls the algorithm. And, you know, like, it. This really gets at the heart of that. If the nature of his allegations specifically against Spotify, that, hey, you guys are manufacturing this. This hit. I'm sure the song would have done well, but you guys made it into the biggest song of the year, you know, and at my expense. Because you turn the knobs on the algorithm a certain way. And so that it gets into. That I want to get into. But go ahead. I know you have one more thing.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah. And so it's interesting because you said to get back on the trajectory he was on. And this is why I want to just hit this up, because it's more about the culture, not the technology. And the.
[00:09:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: Stuff we're going to discuss now.
And it's interesting because that's. You. You're right. He was on. Drake was on such a huge trajectory, which he'd been on, being one of the biggest artists in the world at this point. And what Kendrick Lamar did, which is very rare, especially in hip hop. And I think any genre, Hip hop, having the history of this battle rap environment, which I don't think. I think it's pretty unique to hip hop, I don't see that in other genres of music.
And understanding the history of hip hop like we do, Right. Like in the 80s, the breakdancing and the battle rap was a way to replace shootings and actual fighting with gangs. And so there's a big history on this stuff about, you know, kind of manning up and who's the bigger man. Based on the ability to battle rap. And what Kendrick really did in two ways, which I think was a fatal blow culturally for. For Drake. One was kind of expose him with that song. Not Like Us is because he's Canadian, he's not, quote, unquote, African American, which shouldn't be a big deal. But if you really get deep into the culture, that can become a wedge issue, which it became. The second is, I think this is even more of an issue for Drake, which is Kendrick really exposed him that he's not really a real rapper in that way, that he. He doesn't have stuff coming off the dome. Just like being able to spit bars like that, like the way Eminem did in the. In the film eight Mile, you know.
[00:11:22] Speaker A: When he got challenged, man, I think you're wrong. And I'll say this. Drake has had bars because Drake has taken on other rappers. I think what you're I think what you're feeling is what you're not is not what you're saying. And I think what you're feeling is correct. I think Kendrick took his manhood, you know what I'm saying? It wasn't like Drake had bars, but Kendrick came and, like, kind of just stood over.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: I was. I wasn't sure where you were going, but you're right. No. And Drake it up.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: You know what I'm saying? And so now Drake has a hard time being the man. Like, rapping. Rapping is a lot of machismo and bravado. And like, Drake is like, we don't believe you from the culture now. You know, like, it's just like.
[00:12:00] Speaker B: No, you know what it is, bro.
[00:12:01] Speaker A: So that's what I think really is what you're observing.
[00:12:04] Speaker B: It's that famous. You're right. It's that photograph of Muhammad Ali over. Yeah, the dude. And it's just like, wow. Okay.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: So, yeah, it would be hard for Drake to come out rapping about how tough he is now or about how he's the man and this and that. Cause it's like, man, we just remembered this dude took your soul.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: But that's what I feel like if Drake really had himself, not someone else writing the lyrics for him, and him doing a great job spitting the bars when someone writes it, but himself coming up with it, he would have done it already. But I think that's where he's exposed. It's just. He just. He doesn't have it.
[00:12:40] Speaker A: I mean, as I said, I think you can't go there because he's won plenty of rap beefs in the past, you know, I'm saying. And so, like, people shows you why it was never the same, you know, after.
[00:12:49] Speaker B: Shows you why I'm stuck in the 90s. So let's not. Let's not continue to embarrass.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: But I mean, I get what you're saying. I mean, so the idea that maybe Drake is struggling to get back on the trajectory, that he learned the track that he was like, he's tried to kind of push this and push that, and it doesn't hit the same. Which, I mean, we've seen that as the outcome of battle, I guess. But I think. Well, let me say this, though. I think that from that standpoint, time, it just hasn't been enough time, you know? Like, I think that in three or four years, I mean, I'm sure if he continues to do what he's doing, he can get maybe not. I mean, he was On a trajectory that was, you know, like. Like very, you know, sky high before. So. But I'm sure you can get back on a good trajectory in a few years, but right now it's been so quick. Well, let's see so soon after that. You kind of got to let it pass a little bit. Like, even I remember when Jay Z and Nas went at it, like Nas, you know, like, and Jay Z both, it kind of shook him up a little bit and they both had to continue on their tracks. And it took a second, you know, for them to kind of get back into their get, find their voice, particularly Nas, I would say, like, and then.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: They had a song together, which was great Black Republican. Remember that?
[00:13:51] Speaker A: So. But I want to get to this techno feudalist angle because I do want to get out of this topic in a second. And like, to me, the question of is there, like, is it possible really even to do this organic hit thing anymore? Because I'm looking and when I read this and read, you know, kind of what the accusations are and everything like that here, like, I'm not saying that previous to now there was some kind of organic marketplace, we know, payola, you know, on radios and stuff like that has been a part of the music industry since the beginning. You know, record labels going around trying to get, you know, certain songs spun more and everything like that.
I would think, you know, like there is because of the marketplace, because the radio station competes with another radio station doesn't want you to turn. They're going to play the stuff that people don't turn off or people want to hear the most. So the competition element, I hope, was. Was there more. But when you're talking about the. The algorithmic piece, particularly with a captive type of audience, you're paying a subscription and stuff like that, I do wonder if it's possible now to really manufacture. As long as a song has certain characteristics, as long as it's quote, unquote, good enough. And I'm not saying this is not like us. Not like us is a great song, but as long as song is good enough. I wonder if you can algorithmically, if it's possible to algorithmically make it a hit, you know, just by like, yeah, every time somebody, you know, we're gonna put it in all these playlists, which we know is done. You know, hey, we're gonna make. Make sure that the Spotify playlist or the Apple playlist contain it. Make sure, you know, if it's. If an explore functions, it's gonna get like, what drives what's a hit now, is it people going and searching for it, or is it being what's being recommended and, like, the offline. I gave you the example. And it's like, so hold up. I wonder, if Charmin sales go down, can they sue, you know, like Amazon being like, yo, if somebody searches toilet paper, you don't even put us on the front page anymore. You got all these other, you know, things behind. It's like, because algorithmically, if you're 20 spots down on Amazon, like, they are putting you at a disadvantage, you know? And so, like, what is one, what is it? Do the. The. The Techno Feudalists, so to speak, just could hold all the cards here, and it's like they can decide what succeeds and what fails. And two, does somebody like Drake in this case or in the. The hypothetical I gave about Charmin, do they have any kind of recourse, you know, like, in dealing with these people? Or is it just like, yo, just whatever, whatever the Techno Feudalist does for you, that's what you're going to have to deal with. You know what I'm saying? And if they, if they decide to favor you, do give you favor status, you're going to get that. And if they decide to stop giving you favor status, gets my. Give it to somebody else, you're going to be screwed, you know, and there's not much recourse you have. And so that's kind of the questions that were raised in Techno Feudalism as well. So I saw the tie in there, and so, like, to me, I'll let you get the last word, but that was something to me that was like, you know, it's like, oh, okay, yeah, wow, this is funny. And sour grapes and all that. There's something under this as well that's like, you know, like, yeah, what about the next, you know, this song? And they want to, you know, they want one person to win or another person to win, or a record label says, hey, we got money on this person, or whatever.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting, but I want to ask you this because one of the things I read in one of the articles was that the track ultimately peaked at number one on the US Billboard Hot 100 and earned acclaim from critics. So my point is, is that he's suing Spotify, which I know is a big player, but it's one of many. It's not Apple music. It's not some of these other platforms, SoundCloud and others that. That also have a lot of music. It's not the radio stations. So on and so forth. So, like, the fact that it was this. The song, Kendrick Lamar's song peaked at number one on the US Billboard charts. Like, is he trying to make the claim that by Spotify has that much influence that themselves, by them manipulating it, it influenced the whole other thing.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: Everyone else, like, it's like, okay, if you make it a big enough hit in one place because of algorithmic fear, feedback and stuff, will it then peter out everywhere or, you know, like, distribute out everywhere else? But it's just Spotify and it's universal. So to me, that's one of those things, though, that where it's like, it's. It's strangely specific to not have a smoking gun, you know, and it's like, why. Why did you say Spotify, not Apple Music? Or, you know, why didn't you. Why didn't you throw Apple Music in there, too? Like. And now, just to be clear, he's not suing them yet. He's. He made filings because he wants to. To try to get factual information from them, you know, through. Through the discovery process. So he hasn't actually put it in, you know, and signed paper saying this is what happened, but he's alleging that this is. These are. This is why I want to be able to get more information. But this, that's. But that's part of why I'm like, yo, like, why was. Usually if you're going to sue, like, oh, I've been damaged. You sue everybody. You know, it's like, I'm going to sue all these people. And then we'll figure out once we're in the lawsuit who I need. If I need to drop somebody out. So this was so targeted and so specific without the smoking gun. It was just like, yo, it seems like this is what you were aware of them doing for you, you know, like, so that's kind of. That's where I get that from or that's where I go with that piece. But I mean, I don't know. I mean, I think that we will generally speak and I imagine this type of thing is going to settle. Like, I don't. I can't imagine Spotify or Universal would want any of this stuff. Whatever, whatever if it was innocuous or if it was, you know, like, as bad as Drake is alleging or worse. I don't think they want that stuff out publicly anyway. So I don't know that we will find out. But it's just an interesting shot across the bow because it does sound, it seems like a shot across the bow from somebody who knows where the bodies are buried, you know, because of how specific it is. And like, yeah, yeah, I think you guys did this, this, this, this and this. And they're like, where's your proof? And it's like, well, no, let me go, let me go read your emails and I'll find the proof. It's like, how do you know exactly what to look for in these emails?
[00:19:24] Speaker B: Seems like a, seems like a shot across the bow from a guy that lost his manhood. That's what you say.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: Maybe that it's both.
It's both a guy with nothing to lose who knows where the bodies are buried, you know, or feels like he has nothing to lose. So. But I think we can wrap this topic from there. We appreciate everyone for joining us on this topic. Check us out. We got a couple more topics coming today and we'll talk to you then.
All right, next we wanted to discuss. There were recent piece today or recent piece in Vox that discussed and really pushed back on. There was a study this past year, over the past year talking about ultra processed foods being bad for your heart conditions and everything like that, which I think a lot of people have been exposed to now, this idea of ultra processed food and the idea that it's not good for you. But included in that study and in the literature and which made its way to some headlines is the inclusion in that the meat substitutes, like beyond burger, impossible burger, all that kind of stuff as ultra processed. And so therefore putting those into this unfavored status. And this article pushed back against that and so forth. And so we wanted to have this discussion just in terms of one, the, the kind of association what that. One of the points is made in the article is that the association between ultra processed and unhealthy is so like, so so much there that if you put anything in that category then you're automatically basically insinuating to somebody that that's unhealthy. And then also the what the, the difference between like a pastry and a beyond burger and one may be worse for you and stuff like that. So it's anytime you're dealing with this nutrition stuff because we literally are building the plane as we're flying it in a sense like they're coming up with new stuff all the time. We don't, you know, it's imperfect to study the body and how things, you know, the body treats with certain things or handle certain things versus others and so forth. So it's trying to find clarity, trying to find good information. It's hard. Anyway, we Saw this kind of dispute as something good to talk about. So Tunde, you know, like your thoughts on or just kind of what do you make of this ultra processed, you know, is it good? Is, you know, is meat substitute in it? You know, this discussion and whether or not it's unfair to include meat substitutes in ulcer process when we're warning people about donuts and pastries and you know, like veggie straws, you know, so to speak.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's a great. I think this article is great for the reasons we're going to discuss. I mean, because you're right, there's so much going on in terms of information about nutrition, about the body, about how the body processes nutrition. But food and other things, both natural foods that come from the earth a certain way. And then I don't want to use the term unnatural because I know it's all for consumption, but like you said, processed foods, things that have been put together that aren't found that way in nature, let's put it that way, but are still digestible and a human can eat them.
What this article did, I thought it was a great job, was showing how a lot of times the studies themselves can be confusing. And so the ability for journalists to report on them becomes even more confusing because a journalist is really just taking research and reporting on the research.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Well then also though, remember there is the idea that maybe the journalist comes in with a bias as well take something from study that technically is there, but then they. Maybe what they emphasize in a headline may be misleading in terms of what the overall study. You drill down in all the studies. But so you select a headline and you create an impression that's technically accurate. It could be a quote from the study. But that quote out of context means something totally different.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: No, that's true. And I think that was one of the examples here. Was that plant based, like you're saying to me, that does sound like beyond beef or sorry, a beyond burger or one of those kind of things. But in the study, what they were citing was the majority of, of the food were actually things like you said, pastries, cookies, donuts, things that. Just hearing that like an impossible or sorry, beyond beyond meat burger versus a donut. One can assume like you're saying that, okay, the stuff that's going into the beyond meat burger is probably, I'm just going to assume is a little bit healthier than the empty calories and the sugars and all that stuff that's, that's going to dominate the donut.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: Well, that gets to the heart of it, though, it is that assumption.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: You know, like, we all come in with that assumption, that impossible burger. Beyond Burger market themselves as healthy alternatives to meat, you know, and so, like, it's. It's like this, this, you know, it's going head to head. It's even deeper because it's healthy. Healthy health food.
[00:24:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's. I mean, it's deeper because it's. It's a healthy alternative. But what is it? You're right. It's like. All right, I kind of get it. What the donut is.
Right.
[00:24:21] Speaker A: It's not an alternative to fruit.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Yeah. It's sugar. It's rich flour. It's. It's. It's yellow dye number two and in red dye number three to make dicing, you know, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Which is all unhealthy and all that.
I don't really know what's in the, you know, Beyond Meat Burger. I want to hope it's something good, but I'm also trusting the system. Right. And so I think, like, we've seen with other things in our cultural discourse, because obviously things like food and nutrition, we've seen also, and we did a show on this, like, two, three years ago, that some of these alternative, from alternative kind of nutrition sites to alternative, like supplements for working out those have become gateways to things like QAnon eventually, you know, like, meaning. Because where there's a little bit of ambiguity and there's not certainty and clarity, the vacuum can be filled a lot of times with a lot of conspiracy. And so there's the idea that the government's putting all this stuff in the food or these big bad corporations and all this stuff. And so as I hear myself speculating on not knowing, kind of knowing more what's in a donut from Dunkin Donuts than I do from a Beyond Meat Burger, which I'll consume, there's a lot of room for. Well, what's in that Beyond Meat Burger? You know what I mean? Is it. Is it even healthy? Is it something real? Is it plastic? Is it, you know, said something very.
[00:25:46] Speaker A: Interesting that I have to jump on, and that is that you're going to have to just kind of trust the system, you know, in terms of the Beyond Burger, the impossible burger or whatever. And I don't think that that's actually what you're doing, because what you're actually doing, what you do, if you, if you want to consume that, you want to go that direction, you're trusting their marketing more than anything. Because this dichotomy has been obvious to me for a while. And that's why this, this, this story really hit home with me. Because it's, it's really what it is, is that when it comes to your dietary choices, if you're trying to make good ones, there's several masters that you could be serving, you know, and so in all of those masters, none of them are really kind of, this takes care of everything, so to speak. Like, it's like, okay, I want, I want to eat healthy, so to speak. So do I want, Is it, do I need to minimize meat? Well, what's wrong with the meat? Do I need to eat fish? Okay, well, it's. Is it that the meat inherently is bad or is it that people generally over consume meat and, or is it that the meat is that we eat or we have access to is raised in ways that make it unhealthy? We don't know. So it's like, okay, well, let's just do this meat alternative. And it's like, well, with meeting meat alternatives, these meat substitutes, it's different. If you want to say you're vegan and just say, okay, I eat plant foods, that's one thing. But if you say, no, no, I want to have the burger experience, then you kind of, you can stay vegan. But it's like, okay, well, you are going into the realm of processed food at that point. Because these, these beyond burgers, impossible burgers, I don't think it's unfair to call them processed because they're, they're very far removed from the natural state, so to speak. If you're talking about tofu and things like that, then it's a little bit different. But these commercial products that are made to, to actually mimic and appear and taste like something else, like that is kind of what processed food is. And so if you want to serve the master of no meat, then you have to make certain compromises in terms of what you're going to eat from a processed food standpoint. Or if you say, okay, I'm only eating natural stuff, then you got to be careful with like, okay, so does natural stuff, does that mean they can spray it with pesticides its whole life and then you wash it off and say, okay, it's all good, or anything like that. So, and that, that gets to the organic piece, you know, like, so, okay, organic. Is organic healthy or is organic not healthy? Or is, is it more to it? So the desire for. And this is where you get to the thing with headlines, the desire for simplicity or kind of basic rules of thumb is difficult because there's all these different masters. Do I want to avoid pesticides or toxic pesticides, chemical pesticides, or do I want to avoid meat or do I want to only do stay as close to whole foods, whole real foods as possible? You know, do I want to eat Paleo only stuff that people ate, you know, 20,000 years ago? Or like there's all these different masters you can serve. And the problem is, or the thing is, is that for the most part nobody can promise you that all that any one of them can solve all your problems. So it's like, okay, that's navigating it through and just kind of you go what feels right for you or what you have good results from or something like that. I guess maybe one exception would be the Mediterranean diet which has shown a lot of benefits over a long term period. But you know, like that's more of the exception in the rule with a lot of things that were marketed.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: Well, I think that's, I mean look, that's something we probably all need to accept the reality of where that there's no perfect answer for everything because we're human beings and our bodies are constantly corroding and dealing with entropy. You know, the reality that we're going to die at some point and all of us at an individual level are a little bit different. So, so we're all going to be susceptible to certain individual realities even though we're within a larger system where, you know, there are certain things like it's like this conversation about vaccines and all this stuff, yet 100% of the people out there, maybe there's 0.3% that are affected negatively by a vaccine. But a decision was made that for the greater good we should, you know, this vaccine is still okay for the larger population, but as individuals we should all look and be vigilant about how each of these things affect us and food and this nutrition stuff is no different. One of the things that as you're talking though makes me realize and I want to jump into a little bit of the actual study because just for the audience, this article which we'll have in the show notes there were 118,000, they're pretty exact, 118,397 people studied in the UK.
And what's interesting is this study was done a few years ago before beyond the impossible burger and beyond meat products were even available on sales the current generation. So, and what happens is, and this is what I want to get into, I want to, I Want to read this? Because it goes back to what we're talking about. This, this, the media and the fight for information. The headlines it says, I'll quote here. Plant based meats were virtually absent from the study. Just 0.2% of calories across the sample came from meat alternatives. 2, 10 of 1% on 118,000 people. However, this is how the Washington Post headline new research found eating plant derived foods that are ultra processed such as meat substitutes, fruit juices and pastries increase the risk of heart attacks and strokes.
New York Post declared, quote, vegan fake meats linked to heart disease early death.
And that hits me very interesting after this year because as I've shared on the show, different discussions like this and obviously with you personally, I suffered what they consider a mild heart attack in April of this year. And I've had stress tests, cardiac catheterization, CT scans, all that stuff. In the last six months I've learned a lot. I have advanced artery disease. I've got blockage of 30 and 40% and two arteries in my heart. And I'm 46 years old. So the cardiologists say I'm a little bit young to be having this. It's probably hereditary, all that. So when I read headlines like this, to me personally, it really sticks out now more than it would have just a year or two ago.
And that's what I mean, that I don't know what the New York Post motivation is, but to sit there and have a headline that says that, you know, that it specifically these alternative meats that are causing strokes and heart attacks, when the study says just 0.2% of the calories in this study from 118,000 people came from processed meats, there's a disconnect there. Right. And my thought is this is where again we got to be careful with these vacuums of information because there's a lot of different competing interests. Like you said about the bias of a journalist, there's a lot of ideological just thoughts and fights over things like meat alternatives to non meat alternatives. Just like there's a lot of ideological hand wringing over things like the climate.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Yeah, well, no, no, the food industry is rife with this. I've noticed.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. Yeah.
[00:32:38] Speaker A: For example, me personally, it's very important to me, you know, from, from a humanitarian standpoint, one on one sense, but really from a health standpoint that any animal that I eat be an animal that, or as much as I can control it, be an animal that was a healthy Animal. Like I don't want to eat sick animals. So if animals are raised and done to be sick, then I'm like, well, hold up, if I eat a sick animal, then it's whatever's happening in that animal that, that is a reaction to a result of them being sick. It's probably going to end up making me sick or at least if I eat a lot of that.
[00:33:11] Speaker B: So.
[00:33:12] Speaker A: But I've seen the discussion, the discussion of animal products rarely ever goes into this. It's just like, oh yeah, red meat is this and fish is that. And it's like, well, hold on, what if the fish were raised in, you know, farm raised and you know, bathing, antibiotics and, or what if the, you know, the, the beef is grass fed, grass finished, you know, yada, yada, Yada, full of Omega 3. Like the discussion rarely ever, but I'm sensitive to it, but the discussion rarely ever goes into that. So yes, the, the kind of, either the bias or the, the kind of information that is appealing to the person who designs the headline or writes the article because they're looking for clicks. A lot of times, like when you look at the incentive structure of everybody, it's not an incentive structure that's set up to get us the best information or the best food, you know, food, no, the food industry can't be trusted. Generally they're just trying to make money, you know, and if we die 10 years earlier than we should, or if we, you know, end up having a much lower quality of life, that doesn't really affect their bottom line as long as we keep buying our stuff until, until we die, you know, because there's another round of people coming like that.
[00:34:11] Speaker B: It's like the health insurance industry.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And so like, I'm not saying that that has to be abolished, but I'm saying you do have to kind of go through life with a certain level of vigilance. Maybe we just don't have any more. Like if, if, if somebody dropped somebody, a person in the wild and said, okay, survive now, assuming they had the skills and the ability to do so, they would approach a lot of their, a lot of their surroundings with village vigilance. They would be like, okay, yeah, let me make sure. If I'm going to eat something, let me, let me, you know, go slow, let me, I don't know if this is going to kill me, anything like that. I'm going to go to a new, explore a new area. I'm going to do it, you know, kind of carefully and everything like that. We don't live life with. We, generally speaking in our society don't live life with vigilance anymore. It's just like, okay, yeah, this is here, sure, I'll eat it. You know, like, so I think that if we don't have that vigilance anymore, then while nature and what happens in nature naturally may not be taking us out, but the people within profit motive might, because we just, we don't have the level of vigilance we need. Because you probably need more vigilance now than if somebody just dropped you in the middle of the wilderness somewhere because there are a lot of people looking to take advantage of you at all times.
[00:35:19] Speaker B: Now, the way you say that makes me visualize when I walk my dog for the audience. I got a chocolate lab. So when I'm walking him and there'll be like a dead frog that was hit by a car and the dude will just start, you know, he'll just eat it, you know, or somebody's trash. It's like, that's what I feel like when he said it. Like.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: And that's how we are. When you go to the grocery store, it's red. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:35:42] Speaker B: Well, you know, that's why they put from all the hide on the meats and all that, to make it redder. Right? Because I guess that's the primal thing. Oh, it looks good.
[00:35:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So, I mean, I. But just to wrap this up though, like, I do think that you raised a good point as far as how the information on how this. Because that's really what the article pushed back on is this kind of, hey, if this was the way this was presented to the public wasn't representative of what the studies. And they even talked to the authors like, well, yeah, they read the headline. To them, they're like, well, no, that wasn't what we were saying. So there's that breakdown.
But I note also, if you read carefully in the article, the article doesn't make the case that these things are healthy, you know, like these, these meat alternatives then say, okay, here's all the studies that say that, you know, over 10 years you eat this kind of stuff and your body is going to be just fine. It doesn't. Which is, I think, fair. You know, like, it's not trying to mislead you necessarily in that way, but at the same time it's like, okay, yeah, you explained all this time on why the people who were saying this stuff you should be cautious of were over their skis a little bit. That may suggest to someone that who's you know, maybe kind of reading again without the vigilance. Like, oh, well, that means that it's the, that means the inverse. If it hasn't been proven that these things are horrible, then that means that they're good. And it's like, well, no, that just kind of keeps it in the neutral category where we're just going to, we're going to learn, you know, we're going to over time, we're going to see how we again, go to the plane while we're flying, we're going to continue. We're going to learn.
[00:37:06] Speaker B: If it tastes good, though, we'll accept that. It's fine for sure. Just like when I walk my dog, that frog down the road. Tastes good, smells good.
[00:37:16] Speaker A: Tastes good. Yeah, like that, that's, that's a smell far as it goes. So. But now. But I think we'll wrap this topic from there. Please check out our earlier topic today. And we got one more coming today, so we'll see you then.
[00:37:30] Speaker B: All right.
[00:37:30] Speaker A: For our last topic today, there's been a lot of one, I should say we start with Trinity Rodman, Olympic champion, you know, elite soccer player who did she was on the Call Her Daddy podcast and brought up and discussed her relationship with her father, who was Dennis Rodman, basketball player, champion, Bulls, Spurs, Pistons, you know, from the 80s and 90s. And she basically talked about how she didn't have a relationship with him and growing up or the negative feeling she had towards that and he wasn't around and so forth. But then also how, like when she made it big, he tried to kind of at least make himself seem like a good father to the public or do things like that, but that also caused harm and hurt for her. And then after that, he came out with, with kind of a weird kind of like, oh, I'm sorry I wasn't the dad you needed me to or wanted me to be and I'll keep trying. It was kind of a, it was, it was very condescending in my view. But I mean, people could check it out. We'll have it in the show notes. But. And then she's come out after that and like, oh, after that, after seeing that, you know, I'm done, you know, kind of like, because it was kind of like, oh, I'm sorry I wasn't who you wanted me to be. But the things she was saying initially weren't about him trying and failing. It was about more so about him not trying and not being there. So we're both fathers, you know, like, you have Your family. I have my family. And you've been doing it a little longer than I have. So, you know, I definitely would be interested in your insight on this, but just as a father, you know, like seeing stuff like this from an adult child, you know, an adult, somebody's child and you know, who's an adult now and how the experiences or lack thereof, the attention or lack thereof that they had growing up, how that carries with them and how that affects them still. Like what. What about your. What. What in this, you know, kind of either stood out to you or something that was kind of. That you've incorporated in your life or like, I guess either learned from or tried to make sure that you don't fall into. And this, you know, you can go to your life experience or whatever, just kind of. What was your reaction to this?
[00:39:28] Speaker B: Like you said, his response is what gave me my reaction, which was just sad, man.
And the reality of being sad is because in the end, you know, we can all kind of smile and laugh because it's Dennis Rodman and he's been a character in our crazy.
[00:39:44] Speaker A: Is kind of his brand, you know.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Like our greater culture of the last 30, 35 years that he's, you know, famous NBA player and all that. But what I'm saying is sad is, you know, he has a right to behave however he has wanted to behave his whole life. But the reality is, the sad part is, you see that like when all these kind of stories, in the end, the kids are the victims.
And it is true that, you know, our kids are affected by how we all behave as parents. And I think, you know, maybe it does not a profound statement for me to say that. That people. It seems like common sense, but in looking back on Dennis Rodman's career, what I've seen from him on the outside, I mean, I don't know him personally, but having been a, you know, basketball fan all my life and watching the Bulls, you know, in from the 80s on and being a big fan of the teams that he was on, even from the Bad Boys and Pistons, we know that Dennis Rodman was. Was a character. And you know, in reading, I read his. His autobiography years ago and, you know, the guy liked the ladies. You know, he definitely seemed like a character, but those. Those characteristics appear to have not made him the best father. And when I say the best, I don't know what that definition is, but my point is, is that when your child is basically saying that you weren't there for them and is basically as an adult accusing you of only showing up when it's in your interest for photo ops and things like that. That's sad and that's not good. And his response online, I think tells it all. I, you know, that, you know, he, he's sorry he wasn't the father that, that he, she wanted him to be. That's like putting it on your own kid that it's their fault that they're unhappy with the way you're a parent. So.
[00:41:35] Speaker A: Or that you tried your best or any. Like it was, like it was really just kind of.
[00:41:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And let me just finish with this and then I hand it over to you. Just to me, this is the whole issue why I'm not on social media. Why don't like social media.
And this isn't social media's fault. This is his fault as a father. Why even having this, this conversation in public. This is your daughter, man. Pick up the phone, go get her complaints.
[00:41:59] Speaker A: Like her complaint that she, when she has her, her first game in, in the women's soccer professional league, you know, he shows up, she doesn't even know he's coming. Like she hadn't seen him in months. He shows up, makes it all about him, you know, and then like, oh, I'm gonna get a photo op and everything. Like, I'm such a, you know, like presenting that he's such a great father. And even in this, with this, his response here, it's like trying to present that he's such an invested and care he cares and all that kind of stuff. When it's like her whole complaint the whole time is that you never cared unless it was convenient to you. You know, it is like, well, man, you kind of reinforced that right there with this response, you know, so to me, like, I think that's just like he is the person that he is, you know, and it's unfortunate that it's hurt her in that way, you know, like. But the fatherhood piece is really interesting to me because I've wondered a lot. Like, again, as a father, I have young kids, I have a 12 year old, 9 year old. And like what makes a successful father? Is it the time that you spend as the father or is it the result like you. Because there are plenty of people that have absentee fathers that do very well in life, you know, like, so was that father that may maybe not do their. Through their direct action, but is that successful fatherhood? Well, from an evolutionary standpoint, yeah, probably. You know, if you, if your kids do very well, even if you weren't there, it Seems like. Well, that's kind of. That's kind of, at least from an evolutionary standpoint, that's the point is that your offspring flourish, you know, or it. And so. Or, you know, is it spending the time make being there, you know, having those. Those fulfilling relationships, developing emotionally resilient, you know, like trying to really invest your time and your energy there, you know, and which history has shown that can work out well or that can knock or work out well. There's. There's a randomness to. To. To raising children that, you know, is something that a lot of people try not to think about, you know, when it comes to these things, there's a randomness to life. You know, you can make all the right decisions, something great happened, or make all the right decisions, something bad happened or. And vice versa. So, like, I've kind of looked at it, you know, from a standpoint and not even from a judgmental standpoint. Like, I know for me, you know, I'm. I'm going to be the type of person that I want to be that I. That I find to be important, which is I want to be a father that's invested in my kids, and they know I'm invested in them. I'm giving the time. But I look at it also like, that's one approach that's kind of like the cultivating approach to fatherhood. And, you know, like, so I. You have a couple of kids, and you're trying to give both of them. You know, you have two kids, you're trying to make both of them give them all the tools they need to become the best that they can be. You know, that's one approach. The other approach, not cultivating, is kind of like just the Johnny Appleseed kind of approach was just kind of like, hey, let me spread it out, you know, let me. Let me have a bunch of kids. If I have 10 kids, then maybe I'll have two successful ones and I'll just spread them wide, you know, so to speak. And again, that's not for me, but it seems like that there are plenty of people that do that kind of approach. And I mean, again, I'm not going to be the one to say because again, evolutionary standpoint, maybe that's superior to my approach, but it's just not. That wouldn't be what I'd want to do. And so Rodman clearly wasn't the kind of guy who wanted to, you know, invest in it and felt it important with his time at least to invest in his kids. But his daughter is very Successful. Like, we hear about these stories a lot of times with people who didn't become successful. Like, we're hearing about a story now with somebody who's immensely successful at a very young age. And it's like, wow. But they still carry around this pain. And they showed us this pain right now, which, you know, like you said, it is sad to see her pain in that sense and, you know, and so forth.
[00:45:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, look, there's. Like you said, there's different ways of being a father, a mother, all this. But, yeah, I think that really they're the. For me, anyway, because you're right, a lot of this is cultural. I mean, I remember in the book Sapiens, we read about one of these cultures in South America, one of these indigenous tribes, where the culture of that group was the man never really knew or. Sorry, no one really knew who the father was, the child, because when a woman was pregnant, the men would just keep having sex with her because they. Obviously, this was an indigenous tribe in the middle of the Amazon, which was.
[00:45:48] Speaker A: A more commune type of culture.
[00:45:49] Speaker B: Yeah. They didn't understand DNA and sperm and eggs and all that. So they just assumed that the more men that basically finished off in her, the more kind of input there was into this baby and so. But also try to raise the kids.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: That was a big part, they said that got a lot of guys invested in.
Yeah.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: And so it's just interesting. So that's their culture. That's not our culture. Right. Our culture is generally a man and a woman get married, and then they raise children on their own together. And even if they get divorced in our modern world, like you said, there's some dads that are absentee, but still, they might not live with the kid, but they still are able to nurture and be a presence in the child's life. And so I think under those. Under our cultural construct, Dennis Rodman has failed as a father. And that sounds terrible, but that's what I would say when the children are the ones saying certain things. Like, I remember, I think, you know, just in the recent years, publicly, I remember Rudy Giuliani's kids came out and said some negative things about him in recent years. And I just thought, well, that's terrible. You know, like, you wouldn't want to be in your late 70s, 80s, and your kids out there saying these bad things.
I know that there's been discussion about men like Elon Musk and Nick Cannon. I think both of them have around 10 or 12 kids each. Yeah.
[00:47:14] Speaker A: Maybe.
[00:47:15] Speaker B: Yeah. And so. And that's what I mean. So, I mean, I don't know what all that means, but.
[00:47:20] Speaker A: Well, that's a little different though also because it, from what I recall about that when they were actually still trying to be a part of these kids lives to some degree. Not like completely. Yeah, you know, like, and then it was like. But they got, they got money and they can provide for this and that and you know, and that there's, there's a lot. Basically there's a lot of different ways people do this kind of stuff.
[00:47:40] Speaker B: Yeah. And so that's what I mean is, is, you know, again, I don't know if there's a right or wrong, but I think based on, you know, what, what at least for me and our, I think what our culture is here in the US and kind of the western world of parents and kids. I think it's, it's a lot. If a child has, especially as an adult child is continually saying that this person wasn't there, they weren't parenting me the way that I thought that I should be parented, I think that means a lot. And unfortunately for Dennis Rodman and expressing.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Pain because of that, it's not just. They're saying that kind of in the abstract, but they're still processing that and still dealing with the.
[00:48:15] Speaker B: Yeah, I would say this. It's. Looking at who Dennis Rodman was through his life publicly is not a surprise, let's put it that way. And it's sad. That's what I mean, it's just sad.
[00:48:24] Speaker A: I mean, I'll say this and you know, I know we want to wrap this up here shortly, but the. You said, you know, like from a cultural context that he, he failed as a father and that that's. I don't think you can argue with that. So I wouldn't argue with that necessarily, even if I wouldn't necessarily come out with that direct. But that's the, it's like kind of like, it's a similar discussion of like, what master are you serving? Like, is your goal just to have kids that succeed, quote, unquote. In what context, you know, do they succeed, you know, financially or professionally or anything like that? Um, you know, and then that again, that looks at it more from an evolutionary standpoint, like you want your kids to be successful and able to continue to, to, to go with another generation and all that kind of stuff. In that sense, you can't really say that he failed. You know, in the sense that again, she is a world class athlete, you know, world. And someone who's at the top of her profession and everything like that at, like in her early 20s, you know. And so now there have been costs to that, though. And so that's where it's like, are those costs, like, she could have been that also, even if he. If she didn't have the emotional toll that had him not being around or him being unreliable and things like that took on her. And so, like, if. If what master are you serving again? Are you trying to develop, you know, develop your kids to the fullest, or are you just hoping that a couple of them hit, you know, like a lottery ticket, so to speak? And so with that, I mean, I. I don't get into the kind of the judgment piece of it. Like, you know, I think that it's again, my way. I have the way that I think is. Is a good way to do it in the way that I want to do it myself. I think, again, I'm saddened by the hurt and pain that she feels. I hope that, you know, like, it can get better. But I. I also recognize that it may not. As you pointed out, like, seeing the man that he's been for 40 years, since he's been in the public eye, it doesn't seem like, you know, like, he's going to change in any way. Like, he's kind of been consistent in that way. And while that's entertaining and you watch it on TV and stuff like that, you see the kind of toll it takes from a family standpoint. So, I mean, it's. To me, this is just kind of one of those, like there are in the world, there are situations that are kind of just unfortunate that you'll see from time to time. It's just like, yeah, I feel bad for her. I don't feel bad for him. I mean, he kind of made his choices and, you know, those are the choices he has. You know, he's. That he lives with. But, like, I feel bad for her, but at the same time, it's like, you know, like, she is a success, you know, like. And so, like, I also commend her, you know, and her mother and things like that. And, you know, it's like, yeah, I hope my kids. I can raise kids that'll be successful in that way. But also, you know, I want to tend to the. More the other elements as well, you know, and, you know, like. But again, I just hope for a positive result in the end because the randomness of child rearing in life, you know, is like something that is. You don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, but it's there. It never goes away.
[00:51:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's just, you know, you've got all the issues too. We could bring up like trauma. Apparently. I remember reading from reading his autobiography, Dennis Rodman had a tough upbringing.
[00:51:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: You know, his father, he grew up in, you know, real tough conditions outside of Dallas and all in Texas and you know, really poor. So I'm sure some of that affected his own mental state and approaching parenthood. Who knows if he was scared to be a parent, all that stuff. So you kind of, you know, get.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: Also priorities and expectations. You know, what, prioritize what his expectations were. I mean, because he might look at it like, hey, you know, like I had this stuff upbringing, it made me stronger, you know, so he may think that that stuff is, is going to help, you know, or at least he may stuff with that, you know, like.
[00:51:50] Speaker B: I think, look, from what we saw, I mean like he was a substance abuser, you know, just appeared to be somewhat of an alcoholic from the outside looking in all that. I mean, look, the guy, you know, just, he, he, he, he, he clearly doesn't seem to be the stuff that great parents are made of generally. But you know, yeah, he has a.
[00:52:08] Speaker A: World class, he has a daughter that's a world class success, you know, like.
[00:52:12] Speaker B: Well, and what's cool is I didn't know he had a son too. I thought he only had a daughter and his son's in the G League. You know, it's obviously good enough to be a, you know, what we would call a semi pro basketball player in the United States.
[00:52:22] Speaker A: Well, that's pro now. That's all the way.
[00:52:24] Speaker B: I mean that's, that's, that's pretty good. You know, like, so he's, you know, the apples didn't fall far from the tree from the athletic standpoint, but you know, yeah, that's life.
[00:52:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's an interesting.
[00:52:34] Speaker B: We'll figure out how to be good dads. Let's hope our kids aren't talking about us like this in 30 years.
[00:52:39] Speaker A: But yeah, it's, it's, that's what they give. Yeah, one of those things you do your best and that's kind of, you know, like, at least from my standpoint with, with most things you do your best and then, you know, you just hope for, for good fortune and so forth.
[00:52:51] Speaker B: So.
[00:52:51] Speaker A: But I think we can wrap this topic from there. We appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call. Like I see it. Scrap to podcast Rate it review it, tell us what you think. Send it to a friend. Till next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:53:01] Speaker B: I'm tuned with Lana.
[00:53:02] Speaker A: All right, Check out earlier. We had earlier parts of the show as well. And we'll talk to you soon.
