Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] James Keys: In this episode, we take a look at the huge protests that have been going on in France and discuss what they may say about the state of the political center in democratic societies around the world.
Hello, welcome to the Call I Got SIA podcast. I'm James Keats, and joining me today is a man whose podcast creates such an emotional connection that you could call him the romantic Tunde Ogunlana Tunde. Are you ready to show why I might just call you Tunde Mars?
No.
[00:00:43] Tunde Ogunlana: Now my wife can't listen to this show.
She gonna think I'm more romantic with you than with her. Yeah, yeah. No.
[00:00:55] James Keys: Now, before we get started, if you enjoy the show, I ask that you subscribe and like the show on YouTube or your podcast app. Doing so really helps the show out. We're recording on August 27, 2026. And Tunde, while we're both located in South Florida in the US over the past few weeks, we've seen lots and lots of reporting about the massive demonstrations, like hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people demonstrating in France, which have arisen out of student protests originally that were seeking better public services, including, and particularly in some cases in education.
But as is common as the coverage for something like this has mushroomed, we've seen shadow groups jump in and try to create chaos and then try to take advantage of the disorder. And then we've also seen politicians jump in and try to frame the demonstrations and any disorder that people are seeing as. As being about whatever these politicians warn people about or tell people about already. Anyway, through it all, what's inescapable is that the protests are in significant part due to young people's perception that the government in France, which is led by Emmanuel Macron and generally his centrist coalition, that they failed them, and that the politician. And with this also, we're seeing politicians more on the right and more on the left, seem to be gaining more prominence because the solutions and the things being done by the center are. Aren't believed to be serving them. And so it comes back to this perceived failure, at minimum, perceived failure of the Macron government. So just to get us started, Tunde, what are your thoughts on the actual protests that are going on that we're seeing and the coverage and so forth, but also how we're seeing different groups opportunistically try to capitalize on these protests and the conditions that led to.
[00:02:40] Tunde Ogunlana: Well, my first thought with the protests brings me back to our country, which is, wow, our constitution provides a freedom of assembly. And France doesn't seem to have that. But they're still assembling. Anyway, I think your lead in was kind of well said, and I'll follow onto it, which is.
Cause you've identified a lot of things that I also feel. I mean, I guess maybe that's why we've added this discussion to our show.
But I mean, in terms of.
[00:03:11] James Keys: In terms of it's something that we already. I guess we're like the politicians in this thing.
[00:03:15] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah.
[00:03:15] James Keys: Wow.
[00:03:16] Tunde Ogunlana: We agree.
[00:03:16] James Keys: We're gonna frame this in a way that are something we already believe.
[00:03:20] Tunde Ogunlana: But see, at least we're honest about that. Right. We'll let everyone know.
[00:03:23] James Keys: There you go.
[00:03:23] Tunde Ogunlana: There you go. But.
All right, show's over.
But let me get back to having a show with you.
So the answer.
[00:03:33] James Keys: I'm sorry for throwing you off.
[00:03:34] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah, it's all right. Sorry audience now. But to answer real quick on a serious note, I mean, it's where you were going with the idea that the people protesting initially had real issues they were protesting about, which we'll discuss.
Then they were also hijacked by people who just wanted to blow stuff up. Right. And just wanted to make a mockery kind of. If we can think about the. The character of Batman and the Joker, right. That the attitude of the Joker. We had a lot of those people in there. And. And I think you.
[00:04:05] James Keys: You.
[00:04:05] Tunde Ogunlana: You finished it off right, with the elites in France and maybe by extension, Europe.
[00:04:11] James Keys: Your.
[00:04:12] Tunde Ogunlana: What European Union types probably would like to deflect this because I did a similar thing. Like you, I researched in preparation for today and decided to try and look past some of the noise and say, okay, well, how did this start? What's really going on? And to your point, it really started with complaints about the education system by students. And I went a little bit further, and I found that there's also the cost of living. They dealing with inflation as well. Fuel shock, fuel prices.
And also they also are very upset about political gridlock in France because the French parliamentary system has not been able to form a majority government for, I guess, a long enough period of time where there's just a lot of gridlock. So it's interesting, James, because your intro helped me bring this response because I segue into very interesting that the French people seem to have a lot of similarities with what they're upset about as to what we hear Americans being upset about the cost of fuel prices, rise in inflation, not the greatest education that a lot of Americans feel that we're getting.
And then we're all kind of upset
[00:05:26] James Keys: about our political class and gridlocking not getting stuff done.
[00:05:32] Tunde Ogunlana: So I guess that's kind of my initial observation is how similar both the population of France and America seem to feel about their leaders.
We're expressing ourselves in different ways at the moment. But, and, and I'm going to get into that also.
[00:05:50] James Keys: Yeah, but, but I mean, I think your point is very well taken in the sense that also, I mean, we've seen these, these kinds of protests pop up in other European countries now. We've seen stuff in Brussels and Italy and all, all different types of places. I think the, the big point there, like which, the connection you drew is that a lot of what we're seeing here are complaints that people in many areas, these are same complaints, political gridlock, you know, the things the government is supposed to be doing, it's not doing them well, but they're still taxing us. Like, they still do all this stuff very well. And then in many cases, the government's borrowing all this money. It's like, what are you doing with all this money? You know, So I think that there's just a general dissatisfaction with the, the, the way that governments have been operating. And in France right now, they're, they're, they're up, they're, they're, they've decided to do something about it, which is commendable. But yeah, I mean, the fact that you have hundreds of thousands of people doing these demonstrations, like the conservative estimate from the past week was like 400,000.
The estimate from the unions, the labor, was like 800,000. That's a lot of people out in the street protesting. And so the concerns they have, the issues they have, are something that are, that's clearly resonating. And as you pointed out, if it doesn't resonate with you, it probably should. If it hasn't, if it hasn't already been framed to you as about something else. You know, so the, the, the opportunistic stuff that we see, whether it be from, from shadow groups or whether it be from politicians out in the open. I think one thing that, that I would want to comment on that is that how important messaging is.
We recently had talked and it come up because Colin Kaepernick released a book, but it came up about how what he wanted his protest to be about.
He didn't feel like that a lot of times it didn't feel like that messaging was getting through and other people's messaging about what it was about and what people were doing was, you know, like, was dominating it. And it wasn't about, hey, this is about this. What. And in one hand, people were saying, okay, well, that somewhat. Some of that is on Kaepernick because he didn't do enough to make sure that his messaging got through. Like, he was the revolutionary, so to speak. He was the one that was willing to do something about the. Something he had a problem with. But a lot of times, the people that actually have the gumption and want to do something about it aren't also the people who know how to message things. And so there was a disconnect. There is that the messaging part never really was able to get a critical mass in terms of really being clear, hey, this is what this is about. It's not about this other thing. It's not about this other thing. And so as a result, people who want to either undermine you or coattail, you know, ride the coattails and do their own thing with it, who are really in tune with the messaging, they jump in, and then your. Your big protest becomes about something else. And I've seen people in France complain about that already. And really what it is, it's this. If you're going to, you know, like, I commend people who, you know, want to take a stand for whatever it is they believe in and really, you know, boots on the ground, you know, put feet on the street, and try to really make a stand about it, you know, with. With their presence, you know, with nonviolent, you know, protests, it's a. It's great. But I think the blind spot there or the thing that people want to need to keep in mind when you do that is you also, in this world, you have to have a messaging strategy, because if you don't your message, you might do all this stuff, have all this protest, and then other people steal your message, and you're doing it all on their behalf. At that point, every time you do something, it's helping somebody else out who's not even aligned with your interests, so to speak. So to me, the disconnect between the protesting and the messaging, the potential for that, and then how we can see, like, right now, I guess with the distance, it's easy for us to see how people are jumping in from all angles and being like, yeah, this is about this. Yeah, this is about that. And it's like. And the students are like, nah, this is about cost of living.
This is about poor, you know, deteriorating educational opportunities and so forth. They're very clear. But they. Their emphasis isn't enough on the messaging.
[00:09:47] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah, well, let's say this. A good example is actually what's going on now in our domestic politics with the DSA.
The DSA's response to the failure of the center in a certain way here in the United States.
But they are coming out with something that I would consider extreme, which is like abolishing the whole U.S. senate and the presidency. Right.
It's like, all right, I get it, you guys want to change some stuff because you're not happy, but me being now a middle aged dude, that's a little bit too much change. Right. And so I think part of the experience of living in a large society is that when the wheels begin to fall off of the existing order, in a sense, when you're talking about the failure of the center, which is in my opinion, let's say that the United States, we could say it was the failure of the center left and center right in our politics. And maybe in France we could say it's the failure of the center and the center being represented by let's say the French government, all of it. I don't know their politics like that. But also I would say bigger bodies in Europe, like the European Union. Because when I further read into some of the things that got France into the position that's in, it's also a little bit about how the European Union forced austerity on it. Certain things where it's like, all right, they got to start making decisions that are very hard to make. And I would say, James, we have observed in various conversations about domestic economics in the United States how the trickle down economics crowd sold this thing of tax cuts, but we never really cut the spending. Right. Because we every the politicians for the last 40 years want to just keep everybody happy and don't want to really make tough decisions themselves and keep kicking the can down the road. And now we got a 40 trillion dollar debt that is, it looks like the bond market is finally going to force us to start reckoning with. So I appreciate that maybe France was forced to make some difficult decisions that maybe we'll benefit in the long run and maybe we would have been better off being forced to make some decisions maybe after 2008 or even after the crash of 2000, the dot com bubble, but we didn't. And so our situation is manifesting different than the situation in France. But I think you're right, James, this is a kind of a failure of a global center. Maybe if I can say it that way, then that kind of order that we grew up in, those who are in control of it over at least the past generation just were not able to hold it together. And this is the result we're seeing all over the world.
[00:12:13] James Keys: Yeah, well, I mean, and I think more meat needs to be put on the bones of what you mean by the failure of the center. And what I, you know, I mentioned that earlier and. Because what it is, is it's about an approach, but then it's also about, if you're looking at it from an economic standpoint, not getting into social issues, but from an economic standpoint, the idea of unfettered capitalism, unregulated, so to speak, on one side versus highly regulated.
And where is the middle ground there to try to find something? Or you go past highly regulated, you got government ownership, which there aren't a lot of people right now that are prominently pushing government ownership. Even people that are considered the quote unquote left aren't saying that the government should own everything. In fact, you see that on the right more a lot of times, the government taking ownership of stuff. But with the center, it was supposed to be kind of a moderating view between the two. Like, hey, we want to use some of this, we want to use some of that. And then we want to create a system that works. Something that's not driven by ideology necessarily of people who want to go far right or people who want to go far left and say government owns everything, or far right, meaning the corporations are overlords. And they say everything that is done is just their word to God people. But what you see what ends up happening is that so the center a lot of times was the compromise, was, was the moderation, okay, we won't go all the way here, we won't go all the way there. We'll find something in the middle. But what we've seen with this quote unquote failure in the center is that a big part of that wasn't just, we won't go all the way here, we won't go all the way there. It was, we'll find something that works.
And what the, what the center has forgotten about right now is they need to find something that works.
Because what the failure, so to speak, is the 40 trillion in debt, but people's lives aren't 10 million times better. It'd be one thing if we were in all this debt and everybody's just sitting around doing nothing, hanging out at the beach, and it's like, well, yeah, that's why we're in debt, because everybody's on permanent vacation. But people are working harder than ever. They're getting less out of it. And the government's borrowing more money than ever. And it's like, okay, so this, this kind of centrist position where we're going to kind of, we're going to straddle the line. Go a little bit here, go a little bit there. You're not delivering the result.
So when people come and say, hey, we'll blow up the system, we're going right, we'll blow it all up, hand it over to the corporations, blow up the system going left, we'll do this kind of quasi social democratic socialism thing that works pretty well actually in like Scandinavia. But, you know, it's a boogeyman for a lot of people. And it's not something, I'm saying that needs to happen either. But the people who more. Their approach is more of a tantrum, blow it all up, we're going all the way this way. Blow it all up, we're going all that way are ascendant right now because the people in who are more moderate, the people who are more centrist in temperament and in policy have failed to actually come up with something that works. And the reasons why we can get into it. I don't think we're going to get into today. But if you don't come up with something that works and all the, hey, let's kind of take it slow and incremental and hey, let's not go too far here and that's not too far there. If you don't have something that works. Nobody wants to hear any of that, you know. So you mentioned Tunde. I want to get your thought on this before we get out of here. You mentioned how a lot of the stuff that they're complaining about are things you hear people and we hear people complaining about in the US So they're in the street in Paris and across France. Are they ahead of us in terms of recognizing that these things are a problem or deciding to do something about it, or are we ahead of them? And we've kind of like Occupy Wall street was our version of this and that. We're just, we're kind of now just resigned to the fact of gridlock, government and no opportunities moving forward. Where do you think we are? They're still more optimistic than us and they think there's still a chance. And we're like, oh, there's nothing. Or we don't even recognize how bad things have gotten for ourselves.
[00:15:56] Tunde Ogunlana: That's a good question, man. I think that the latter, unfortunately, is where I might lean. Meaning we may not be recognizing how much things have changed to maybe the downside for us.
And I think that going back to something you discussed earlier in this conversation,
[00:16:13] James Keys: we may be in some kind of coma, maybe.
[00:16:15] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah. No, and that's what I'm saying is that the idea of messaging and narratives. Right.
And you're right about the coma, like, state that many of us are in.
And for the audience, he's. He's referring to book by Aldous Huxley, Brave New World, and we're also dating ourselves, because I don't think Anyone under, like, 30 knows what that book is.
[00:16:35] James Keys: And it's the Somacoma. But I know that's something you like to reference, so I. Yeah, no, but
[00:16:40] Tunde Ogunlana: that's why I bring it up, because the idea of being in a coma obviously is understood. And so this idea that you're conscious, but you're not really awake and aware of what's going on. Dare I use the term you're not woke, but that's a whole different conversation.
But the point I'm making is. Yeah, that's my concern, James, is that they're ahead of us in at least making some sort of kinetic response to a sense of urgency. And this is why I say, let's go back to the beginning. The beginning was about their complaints of a failed education system. That's why I say they're ahead of us, James, is because we don't even know what.
We don't even agree on what's failed in this country. Right. We have already dismantled our Department of Education. Again, people could argue with me what that did or whether it was good or not. But I've said, like I've said before on this discussions we've had, the symbolism of putting the person who founded WWE into that position, to me, means a lot. And so when you're talking about.
When you're talking about, you know, are we behind? I think it's a very important question because I don't know if it's right to say are they ahead of us or behind of us based on how they're getting in the street and all that. Obviously, I'm not gonna sit here and promote violence and destructing buildings and spray painting statues and all that. That's not.
[00:18:00] James Keys: That's not the story. Students that are doing that part, you know, like. Well, who knows? Yeah.
[00:18:04] Tunde Ogunlana: I mean, I'm not here to.
[00:18:05] James Keys: Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:05] Tunde Ogunlana: But who knows? That's all I'm saying. It's not. It's not for us to debate that here. It's just more of the idea that they seem to recognize and collectively have. Have been organizing to show their frustration in that way where we seem to just be keyboard warriors fighting each other on Twitter or X or whatever. So that's my point, is just saying, yeah, I think they're ahead of us in that way. And I think that the big issue, because I want to go back to something you said in terms of messaging. It's remember, because those who own the means of our communication, if we look at what's happened here in the United States, like the fights over things like Paramount and CNN and the billions of dollars thrown around, we see why. Because to your point, James, we're being told that it's by some corners of our messaging apparatus as a nation and a culture that none of the stuff we talked about is really the cause. It's not the failing education system. It's is not the fact the country's in crazy debt, is not the fact that they got political gridlock. It's because of socialism and too much immigration. That's exactly.
[00:19:07] James Keys: Let me take a guess. Yeah, the people who are saying that are people that don't like socialism and don't like immigration, aren't they?
[00:19:14] Tunde Ogunlana: They don't like socialism for anyone but themselves.
[00:19:17] James Keys: True, true.
[00:19:18] Tunde Ogunlana: And they only like immigration, apparently, from only like South Africa, where there's a white genocide. That's the only place that's acceptable. So. So.
[00:19:27] James Keys: But I appreciate socialism in the terms of, you know, like corporate subsidies and stuff.
[00:19:31] Tunde Ogunlana: That's the kind of social socialism, no capitalism when you win, but socialism when you lose.
[00:19:37] James Keys: That's what they accept.
[00:19:38] Tunde Ogunlana: But.
So, so, so if I said it
[00:19:42] James Keys: the right way, but.
But no, that was right.
[00:19:45] Tunde Ogunlana: That was right. Yeah. Okay, so. But, but just to finish off the thought is because then I started thinking, okay, so what about the Europeans?
And to make sure that my point sticks, James, I'll just point out to anyone detracting that might hear and say, well, he's wrong. It's like, no, I'm not. Because you said it. There's protests in Italy, in Serbia, and a bunch of other countries now in Europe that all have different immigration stuff than France. So let's assume that it is maybe a failure of the European Union and some bigger stuff at the structural level.
And so I got a few more thoughts, man. But I want to hand it back because I know that I've had a
[00:20:20] James Keys: bit as to the general thing.
I think that they are. I think it's impossible to know whether they're ahead of us or behind us, because I do. When I first saw this, the first thing I thought was Occupy Wall street and how it was kind of this, hey, what's going on here? Like how is there so much money here and so much going on here? And then at the time, remember, we had just given them, given them all that money on top of the money they already had and the money they're already gambling with and playing with and so forth.
And there was some level of sustaining to that. But again, that was another one of those things where the messaging, at least from a sustained standpoint, didn't match the energy that was actually being put into going to the streets.
But, and then, so it's like, but then that kind of peters out after a while and we go even on steroids in terms of, if you look at wealth disparity, it's gone even more since then, you know. So I actually think Americans are kind of resigned at this point. Many Americans, I should say, are resigned to this is just how the system's gonna work. The, the, the ultra rich are going to be able to do whatever they want to do. Everybody else just fights over, you know, the scraps and so to speak. At least I don't know that Americans right now have hope that things could be better. In large part, I mean, and I, you look at this is what drives the, the, the, the rise of something like the dsa like you mentioned before, is people saying, okay, whatever we're doing now, we have to do kind of the opposite, you know, because what we're doing now is delivering this out, this, this crazy result. And like I've always looked at that as a short sighted thing because you can turn the knobs in what we're doing now. And this is the insight that a lot of the, the, the, the, the wealth class has, is that, you know, when, when the, you pointed out in a recent show, top tax, top tax rate in the 70s is like 75% and that was brought down from 93%, you know, in the 50s and so forth.
So they didn't say, hey, we want to get, we want to increase wealth disparity. We want rich people to be richer and poor people to be poorer. They didn't say let's blow up the system. They said, hey, let's turn these knobs in a little bit and then we'll get the outcome we want.
My concern generally speaking is that American, the people who would want a society where everybody kind of gets a chance to, to, to get a good education and the government, the money we pay in taxes goes to government services that actually deliver on their promise to us and there is a pride and a standard that was going to be with that don't recognize the power to be able to get into power and turn those knobs to create a more just society. Maybe France recognizes that. The people in France recognize that a little bit more. Like, oh, if you guys would do things a little, it doesn't have to be. We have to blow it up and put a king in. But if we do things a little differently, if we put pressure and sustain pressure on the people in power, then maybe we can, we can change the trajectory. So that may, maybe in terms of how to deal with it, they may be ahead of us. But I think that everybody kind of recognizes, you know, when the richest person in the world, when, when the. And the richest people in the world, when their value and their wealth keeps growing so fast and so much while everybody else is kind of in the same spot or worse, it becomes pretty apparent a lot of times, like, okay, yeah, like this is. This system is serving the very few and everybody else is left holding the bat.
[00:23:33] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah. Well, it's very interesting you say that because, you know, the knobs. That's a very good way you say that the dialing of the knobs and the realistically is that the dialing of the knobs is done by whoever is the elites of that era or that time through the media through messaging. And that's why again, we talked about what's justified.
[00:23:52] James Keys: It's justified through the. Through the messaging. Well, that's what I mean like trickle down was. Was there was a messaging campaign for a long, long time, you know, to justify this idea that, hey, if we. We're going to lower tax rates and then it's actually going to increase the. It's going to grow the economy so much that actually the government will take in more money. You know, like. Yeah, but they message that because when you hear it, it's like, okay, that's ridiculous. And it proved to be ridiculous. But nonetheless, they message it well. Messenged message it. Messaged it well.
[00:24:23] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah. And so. And one thing I want to share with the audience. I mean, I went down a bit of a rabbit hole because I saw a documentary recently and not to get into that, but just one of the parts of it was talking about Thomas Jefferson's response to the Haitian revolution.
And you know, I started reading a bit and it got me interested at the response of the aristocratic elite in Europe, the Caribbean and the south Southern states of the United States where slavery was prominent. Were all freaking out because the big idea was that they were Concerned that if this whole island, you know, colony got its independence through a revolution, that the term that they were concerned about was the term contagion, that you could have plantations in south, the United States starting to burn plantations, other, other islands in the Caribbean getting lost and stuff.
[00:25:14] James Keys: Because this was an uprising by enslaved, you know, at least from a numbers standpoint.
[00:25:20] Tunde Ogunlana: Correct. But if you think about it, right in the 1790s, the French and Europeans and Southern Americans, the wealth was extremely tied to mercantile trade and the extraction of natural resources from the New World. Right. So in order to, in order to try and stop this from going, continuing to spread, they did the same thing we see the elites doing today. Instead of focusing on the idea that maybe, hey, you know, chattel slavery is something that probably is not going to last forever because people will revolt against it, they began to blame foreign agitators for coming into Haiti and messing with the good Negroes. You know, the way they used to say it, they blamed espionage, they blamed other empires or nations that they didn't like. They blamed abolitionists and religious people that were trying to change these things. So it was all these other concerns instead of looking at the main thing. And that's what reminded me. Because today, if you think about what I said about the European Union, why are they so concerned about France having austerity and in a way that ends up hurting the French people is because today's elites don't.
They don't prop themselves up on the top of our society, on the rest of our shoulders from slavery anymore, but they do a different type of slavery. Maybe someone could argue with me is debt is because of the European Union. Remember the last decade, the 500 billion in euros bonds that were put out and all that, and each country has a slice. So one of the things that the elites don't want is they don't want France to default on its debt. And these riots have brought the value of French sovereign debt down a lot of. And so they're going to try and deflect from all the stuff we've been talking about in this discussion about France's poor education that's come out of this, that basically their debt situation, a lot of it is because the elites siphoned money from the middle class and the lower class over the last probably generation, just like they've done here and now, just like we do here, they're going to deflect and say, the Haitians are eating your cats and dogs in Europe then instead of here. So that's kind of the point. I wanted to make is we're seeing. What struck me about this is like we've seen in history, we like to say the Haitian Revolution. I was more struck also with the way that the elites are responding to this and how quickly they want us all to believe it's just socialism and immigration and all these other things, which a lot of people do believe. So it does work. And that's where you go back to these dials and the knobs, which is the fight for the messaging is so important. And this is why Elon Musk bought X. This is why these guys are fighting for all this. This media dominance, because they want to control these messages.
[00:28:03] James Keys: Yeah, yeah. Well, no, this was why. You remember TikTok and, you know, the control of the TikTok, the same guy who just bought CBS News and just bought CNN and all that. I mean, the control of TikTok. After they saw.
After they saw the governor of New York, the mayor of New York City get elected in large part or at least get momentum on TikTok, they were like, all right, we got to shut that off. We can't have somebody coming up with popular support, not beholden to big donors, you know, using social media, you know, so, you know, so X. TikTok, you know, and then, you know, the Instagram and Facebook and so forth, they put them all in. In the hands of the wealthy elites, you know, so to speak, of this country. So that. Yeah, it's.
[00:28:42] Tunde Ogunlana: It's.
[00:28:43] James Keys: It's something that. I think it's because they know that there's a game being played. So when a move gets made, they are ready to make a counter move. The issue is more so that it seems like most people don't realize the game is being played. So. So they're just watching. The moves are just happening, and they think it's fate.
They think that, oh, this is just the way it is. Like, they don't recognize that this stuff is a result of intentional action and calculation. Like, okay, and that's not to say that everything is calculation. Intentional actions. Search. Things happen all the time that are unexpected or unplanned for. But the issue with. As with life, the issue is not what happens to you. You know, the focus shouldn't be on what happens to you. It's your response, what happens to you. And so, yes, when, When. When things happen, the elites understand that, okay, what's our move? Because this happened, we have to do something in order to. If we don't like this trajectory, we need to make a move in order to change the trajectory. And so I bring it back to the protest in France. I hope that someone who's involved with this or some group that's involved with this, whether it be the unions, which can represent groups of people, as opposed to unions represent collections of human beings and corporations and organizations represent collections of money. And so unions would be a counterbalance. And so if somebody recognizes the need for a consistent and sustained messaging operation as far as what this is about and what you would like to come from this to at least counteract, because I'll tell you this, the people who don't want an education to improve or the government to use more of the money that's being collected from people to make people's lives better, the people who don't want that are in the lab right now coming up with the messaging, or they've already been in the lab and the messaging's already deployed because they know it's a full time job to keep the wool over people's eyes to the fact that the game is being played. So I think we can wrap this from there. We appreciate everybody for joining us on this podcast. Subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what you think it to a friend. Till next time. I'm James Keys.
[00:30:44] Tunde Ogunlana: I'm Tunde online.
[00:30:46] James Keys: All right, we'll talk soon.
