Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: For our call out this week, we take a look at the theory that we saw in the book Sapiens that human language evolved in large part to help us gossip about each other.
Welcome to the Call Like I See it podcast. I'm James Keys here with Tunde Ogon Lana. And for our call out this week, we discussed the theory that gossip in significant part led to the development of human language and also how our modern society seems to actually be supporting this more and more.
And now one thing, Tunde, that stood out to us in the book, and this is from the book Sapiens, we did a show on it not so long ago, but just it's something that we've kept coming back to is this idea that human language and the book goes into how humans aren't the only animals that communicate. All animals communicate and even vocally. There are many animals that communicate vocally. But our language is distinct in the complexity and how many thoughts and ideas can be expressed with it and the evolution of that. It is presented one of the theories, you know, that. That sapiens discusses and it doesn't present as if they made it up, if the guy, if the author made up that theory, but just that he learned about it in research. But that this, that our languages, our use of language and so forth, developed to facilitate gossip, to allow us to talk about each other, you know, behind our backs and, and so forth. And how that also can help, you know, from the standpoint of building larger groups of people that can cooperate together.
So I want to get into that piece as far as how it can help connect people, so to speak. But also I just wanted to start with the idea that the reason we keep bringing it up is that it just seems like the more we see, particularly in the Internet era, things evolve over time and how our language and communication is used, it seems to really support this. So, I mean, what ways do you think that modern societies illustrates this and just also your general thoughts on the theory? I guess, if you want to get started with that.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: Yeah, so I'll start with the general thoughts. I think it's very interesting. Not something I would have thought of organically myself, but in not only being exposed to the concept through the book, but other things. Even preparing today, just researching articles from other anthropologists and psychologists and scientists that type the idea of gossip actually being an evolutionary trait for humans, I found very interesting. And one of the things that the book mentioned was the idea that gossip generally is. This topic is usually about the wrongdoing of other people without their presence.
So the Idea is that you and I might be talking about what some a third party was doing wrong. That's generally what entails gossip. I'm sure there's times when we talk about what a third party did that's good. But it seems to be a lot, a much smaller percentage of time that positive gossip kind of really makes it around a community versus negative gossip. And why is that?
Now if you go back to the hunter gatherer days, it's very interesting because, and I'll cite one of the research articles that we'll have in the show notes, it says that gossip, I'll quote the article. Gossip is time and energy consumptive and involves sharing knowledge and is an essential resource in a resource restricted environment. So think about if you have a group of 100 humans or less the ability to know who might be doing other people wrong. I mean it's kind of a reverse of the ten Commandments. If you look at simple ways of having a society, you want to know who's out there maybe stealing, who's out there killing other people, who's out there disrupting maybe the harmony of the community through being adulterous or at least trying to be going on other people's spouses and things like that. So the idea is that, and I read in some other things that it keeps the society a little bit of the, the glue between people and characters because those of us who know we're going to be judged when we know people are going to judge us by be. By our behavior. The scientific research has shown that people generally will behave better and, and more communal and in their behavior and not so selfish. So I feel like, and this is where I just end with the general thing. I feel like it's another example of an evolutionary trait that at one point in human history was needed for survival. Just like being attracted to sweet things that because we needed a lot of calories as hunter gatherers and you didn't know when your next meal was going to be. Where then in the modern world I can go today to a grocery store and see, you know, 50,000 square foot place full of a bunch of sugar. And so the evolutionary part of my brain wants to just consume it. All right?
[00:04:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: But in the end that's not healthy and we see all the side effects health wise. I think what we're learning now is the Internet has allowed us to gossip in a way that is very negative. And now we have.
[00:05:02] Speaker A: That's a really good analogy.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And so what's happening is just like the supermarket of Sugar has made us very unhealthy health wise. A heart disease and diabetes and all these negative side effects.
I think that this supermarket of mental sugar, meaning the mental gossip is also having. Now it's affecting our psychology in a negative way as a society. Just like the real material food that's negative, like sugar is affecting us in material ways.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a really interesting comparison in that sense because, yeah, I was also fascinated by the evolutionary concept and I guess we'll talk about, we'll do more on society. But I did have some general thoughts as well that I wanted to get like the evolutionary piece, you know, because the emphasis there is once you like chimps for example, which you know, they, they like are great apes, you know, and in the same way that humans are considered to be part of that line, so to speak, the, they can't operate in groups larger than like 50, definitely not 100. Like they're just limited. And a lot of that is because their ability, like your ability to know who's a cheat, who's a liar, who's a con man, all those things.
And in that type, without a fully formed language and you know, again, you can, you have communication but without languages once you get to a certain number of people, it becomes impossible, you know, and so, and that oftentimes consider around 50, you know, 100, you know, something like in that range, 150, maybe at its max. And so what gossip allows you to do, like you said, is to be able to communicate that type of information. If I see it, I can communicate that to somebody else and then they can, you know, if that guy's an adulterer, watch my lady, you know, type of thing. And, and so it's kind of a thing that allows these larger groups to form and work together because on one hand people get information and can be more careful around certain people. And then like you pointed out, on the other hand, the fact that like you messing with somebody's wife can get you into trouble even if that person didn't see you. But if anybody sees you, you know, just like we see with CEOs and recently at Coldplay concerts. And if anybody sees you, then it can get back and then, you know, like that, that, that can, can circle back around and can, can upend your life, you know, so it creates a, there, there's the deterrent piece as well. So you, it operates very effectively to allow people to, to, to engage in larger, larger groups. And so to be able to put it in that context, then you can actually see and so the, the, the, you can actually see how what we would consider, you know, a lot of times people running their mouth and stuff like that can be very valuable. And even gossip, like the Groomer Monger or the original fourth Estate, you know, that person is keeping, keeping people, you know, holding people accountable as far as the things that they're doing behind people's back. And you know, and that, and that can be very helpful. So I mean, I think that to your point now, you know, the, the idea of how, how, how we have leaned into the reason why supermarkets have all that sugar is because, you know, it triggers us in a way that a lot of times we can't even fully control. Particularly when they, you know, start doing the science to these foods and the ultra processed and the textures a certain way and the combination of flavors and the sweet, all that mixed in together in ways that touches your tongue and you lose your mind. You know, like the reason that stuff is all over the supermarket is because it touches us a certain way and we will engage with it or many of us will engage with it in a way that we can't fully control. It seems like in our modern society what we're seeing now, like you can go 20, 30 years ago, or as I guess I should say 30, 40 years ago, you go to the same supermarket and there'll be gossip at the checkout line. You know, you can open up, you know, there'll be magazines and stuff like that you can get. But it's not something that's, that's constant where you're constantly getting gossip. It's like, okay, I can go grab a Us Weekly or I can, you know, get a subscription to People magazine or something like that, and then that'll come once a month and I'll engage with it or you know, whatever. Whereas now it seems like our day to day engagement with the outside world involves endless gossip because again, that's going to stimulate us a certain way and then also gossip exceeding the scope that we can really even handle because it's about gossip around, you know, if you're in the United States, it might be gossip around 300 million people or something like that. Like it's more than what you need to operate in your, in your town or in your company or in your, your floor of where you work or something like that where you, so you can work together, not operation. So it seems like the, to your point, the evolutionary trigger has been, you know, now the idea that it can be monetized endlessly is kind of what we're seeing in the way that our news feeds may operate or even how news media has become more gossipy because, you know, they're competing for eyeballs.
[00:09:38] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I think it's, it's very interesting you make too, because as you said about this last few seconds, the international like things that we might be gossip about that happen internationally got me thinking for some reason of Gaza.
And I thought, and not to get into that clearly for the show, but just the idea that that involved think about us as Americans.
It's. And I don't want to, I know that's a very serious topic, so I don't want to use the term gossip in a sense that's flippant. This is not what I mean by that. But the idea that we are meaning us as Americans are talking to each other about a third party. So the people who support the Israeli government's actions are talking about the wrongdoings of the third party in Hamas and the people who don't support the Israeli government and how it's behaved since October 7 are talking about gossiping about the third party being Netanyahu and the Israeli government. So it's a very interesting example to your point, James, that As hunter gatherers, 10, 20,000 years ago, human beings did not have the ability to gossip about something that happened on another continent. It just wasn't just something that happened. So it didn't occupy the brain space, didn't create emotions, so on and so forth. So I think that's a very simple idea of how industry and our modern world has begun to manipulate our minds. And again, I don't want to take away a topic like Gaza is very important. So I'm not saying it's manipulating it that we shouldn't be talking about it, but does it make sense that people in one continent spend so much energy and passion becoming divided about something that's happening on another continent? And I know that that's probably the modern world since television, radio, you know, the last hundred, 150 years. So it's, it's, or maybe some degree.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: That can be helpful because if you look at South Africa, you know, like the, the ability to broadcast gossip in a wider and wider space, was able to pressure a government that was an apartheid government in a way that got rid of that system, you know, so there, there can be international pressure, so to speak. But I want to fine tune what you said because I think it's very important. It's, it's more so about looking at it from the individual standpoint. It's like hey let's, you might live in a place where the waters has toxic stuff in it or there's issues going on in your place. And if you're consumed though with information and hey, here's what's happening in this place 3,000 miles away that you don't really exert much direct control or no direct control over. No direct control and not much indirect control over. But that's where your mind is worried about. Instead of saying, hey, we need to.
Our local mayor is embezzling the money that we're supposed to be using for water purification. Then it actually blows the point of that to being able to deal with these local concerns and these local people doing wrong locally that directly affect your life and that you could exert direct control over. So it makes you more remote to the things that you worry the most about. So that I think from an individual standpoint that would be a concerning thing because that can be very distressing for people is to spend most of their time worrying about things through again using the term gossip, not to say it's fluid, but worried about things that spending most of the time again, not, not that you spend no time worrying about that stuff. It's been the most of your time and being consumed with things where you exert no direct control and then assuming things where you may exert be able to desert some direct control and it actually will impact your day to day life and whether your kids are getting clean water or something like that.
[00:13:03] Speaker B: Yeah, well that goes back to from the first topic we did this week. The idea of then people become very fearful because they're, they're, they're, they're consumed with gossip about things that are out of their control.
So they feel helpless, they get more nihilistic. And that's when you get people that are more willing to elect someone who's just going to solve it all, which.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: Somebody who's selling that I'll just solve it all.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Is a strong man. And so, and, and so that segues into. I'll just do one more quote from one of the articles we'll share because it goes back to what you were saying earlier, which is quote, individuals acted more cooperatively if they knew that information about their behavior was being shared with others. In turn, they behaved less selfishly around known gossipers which gave gossipers an evolutionary edge that got me thinking about things like confidence men and those who are more extroverted and unintroverted that are willing to go out and create gossip. Right. They end up getting a lot of the spotlight on them. And so I found that interesting from an evolutionary standpoint that they actually have a leg up. They probably were able procreate more and have more say in their respective society. But here's what I wanted to get your thoughts on. James was kind of the.
After reading that quote, it got me thinking about the fact that the Internet as a new means of communication in society, one of the things that that has done is broken that kind of that pact that individuals acted more cooperatively if they knew that information about their behavior was being shared with others. Because what the Internet allowed for the first time in a long time since maybe the printing press allowed someone to produce something anonymously. You could go online and you could be a bigot, you could be very hateful, you could do whatever you want and hide behind some sort of just, you know, fake name or something. And I think we see that a lot in our society, James. We saw when we were kids more with the televangelists, guys who behaved one way in public and then they came out, they're having affairs and all this stuff in private and it's kind of like they're busted. But we see it now day to day with people online who behave certain ways and then when it's found out who they are, they lose their job or they get docs, you know, this kind of stuff. So you know, I wanted your thoughts about kind of what do you, what do you see in that. That from whenever these, these mediums of information allow for anonymity, people may behave like the society can change towards that to more.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: It can. I mean, I would say you can look at the pamphlet era as well. I mean that. I think Benjamin Franklin was, was known to anonymous, you know, writing and so forth and you know, like just. And we have in American history, you know, like the, the, the, the pamphlet and, and different parties that we know now we're doing anonymous stuff. But I do think that what, what the Internet in combination with that is like still in the pamphlet era, there's only so many pamphlets that a person can, can, you know, can buy, can read and stuff like that. But in the Internet era, particularly the algorithmic kind of curation era, where we can just scroll through things so fast and that's being served up to us in ways that are going to maximize how it affects our brains and so forth, is that the purpose of gossip can be undermined because it's kind of like an overload kind of thing. If you're seeing gossip on 100 different people every single day, then all of that information becomes less and less and less and less and less important to you. And so if you do find out that somebody's a cheat or that has been cheating or lying or whatever, and they were doing so it's been proven or anything like that, or 10 messages, 20 messages, 30 messages later, you forgot about that, or it's no longer impactful to you. So it's kind of the ability for the con man or the person who is being dishonest, where that person previously may have been constrained by the idea that, hey, other people are going to find out and then they're going to take some significance to this information. We see it now where, because there's so much gossip, because there's so much information that a lot of times people can't keep it straight anymore, you know, and then that even doesn't even get into the idea of fabricating stuff, you know, like. Because that's also something that we've seen a greater and greater and greater issue with. And I think that goes to a separate issue in terms of, you know, institutions and being able to use institutions to try to filter the information environment and how that's kind of broken down, which we've talked about in different books, you know. But nonetheless, the overload of gossip, it seems like it kind of breaks our system, our internal systems, that if you overload with information, then in this sense, then the purpose of gossip can be undermined. And that makes me wonder whether we are going to be able to, over time, hold large groups of people together still, if there's just so much stuff floating around all the time that you can't say, okay, yeah, that guy cheated that guy, or that guy, you know, he screwed those people over. So I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to rock with that guy. Because it's like, you saw that 100 messages ago, you forgot about that.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. And that's my same concern, James, is that we'll have a Balkanization of the United States at some point and other large nations in the world. Because I do agree with you. I mean, and this is where, again, I don't want to keep being Mr. Boring Guy with regulation and all that, but I just feel like now, because think about what we said about food, right?
The food we consume in the United States is killing us slowly, right? If it killed us fast, then no one could make money off. It'll be obvious. But the fact that we lead the world in heart disease and type 2 diabetes, all that means that is not good for us. And it's been probably since around 1980 that really a lot of this bad stuff's gone into the food. And what have we done? Have we revolted?
Have politicians really looked out for the interest? No, because the way our government is set up with money coming from corporations, the food industry lobbies, people get campaign donations, we all accept it, blah, blah, blah.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: More importantly, we're saying the same thing who vote, but more importantly, the people who vote for those people can be easily, like, they'll, they'll hear it like, oh yeah, spark may, you know, might kill you, whatever. And then they forgot about it by the time, by next, the next day or, you know, so well.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: And to your point, like, the sad part is the more people that vote for that, I'd say the majority live in areas where they don't have access to actually good quality food and they don't have access to good medical kind of care and maintenance.
And it's like this spiral. And my concern, James and Jason, basically that the Internet now is taking this to our brains. And because we have these big mega behemoth companies like Meta and Google and Microsoft and all them. And to your point, they got all these algorithms, they know how to now mess with our minds to keep us addicted, just like a food company, mess with our tongues and our, and, and all that to keep us addicted to food. And again, there doesn't seem, seem to be any appetite from government or the population to really regulate this and, and get us in a position where we're not going to be pitted against each other all the time and having, having people arguing. I mean, literally, people are having fights with bots, like humans are arguing with AI and machines because the machines are programmed to get everyone disturbed. And so like even sometimes, James, honestly, the comments on our, on our YouTube, when people watch it, sometimes I look and I can see, man, is that a robot just talking smack to us? And so, and so, and I've made comments back and sometimes I think that am I arguing with a damn robot? You know, I mean, and so, and so. But that's what I'm saying is I feel like this is going to go the direction of the food. Like no one's going to do anything about this.
The people who are in power now benefit from the tech bros and the oligarchs on that side funding them. So it's just this symbiotic thing that I just think this gets worse. And I think you're right. It's going to be harder to hold this country together.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: And that's. But I think that's the key piece we're pointing to here, is that the way that we would normally be able to get that in check is through gossip. But if the gossip system has been overloaded, like, the reason why, you know, they got the CFCs out and we were able to heal the ozone layer back in the 1980s is because people were talking about it. And people didn't just talk about it for a day and then forget about it and move on. The reason why we haven't been able to get any kind of consistent consensus on the forever chemicals that are in our pots and are in our. All this other stuff is because people bring it up and people are like, yeah, yeah, that's crazy. We shouldn't let that happen. Oh, you know, here this something happened in Montana. Oh, here something happened in Los Angeles. Oh, here's something in New York. And they forgot. Like, we can't like kind of rally around any kind of thing More. More, a lot of us, I should say a critical mass of us, because our ability to communicate to one another that, hey, this company over here is doing us dirty. We probably need to put some rules in here to say, hey, you can't do us dirty. Because it's like a third of us will get cleaved off worrying about, you know, something else, and then another third of us will get, you know, amped up about something. And then we're looking here, sitting there holding the bag like, well, I thought we were going to get the poison out of our water.
[00:22:00] Speaker B: Here's the sad part, James. The sad part is because I can't resist saying this, because think about it. If the evolutionary concept of gossip is defined as me and you talking about the wrongdoing of a third party generally, and that stimulates us, right?
[00:22:16] Speaker A: And then we can then take steps to address. That is the key, Correct?
[00:22:20] Speaker B: And it's like. But what I mean, it stimulates it that that's how humans survived, right? So we have a really deep seated lizard brain. Just like sugar stimulates us and makes us get something out of us, then it's no surprise that, I mean, we're recording this. You know, like I said July 22nd of 2025 that the Jeffrey Epstein story is much more important to the majority of Americans right now than what you just said about what's in our water and the microplastics and these chemicals and things that actually are probably going to kill us as individuals. Jeffrey Epstein is terrible, and he did commit crimes. So I'M not saying that that's a true just hoax conspiracy theory, but what I'm saying is, number one, he's been dead for six years. Number two, the government seems to have whatever their reasons are for dealing with this topic, the way they're talking. So my point is you and I, if we're gossiping about that, which we have just for all admission and humility, and we did a show about it last week, so you and I talking about Jeffrey Epstein is truly energy we're spending that is not going to be productive for us. Not like it's just energy we're spending talking about maybe looking out for chemicals in our food or how to deal with algorithms trying to manipulate us and not fighting with bots online. That actually is information that helps us, but it's not as satisfying to us emotionally as looking over here and wondering who else was doing wrong doing with Jeffrey Epstein. You know what I mean? That, that is a very intriguing something that pulls us emotionally and mentally. More so than me talking about pfas in the water, you know, and how it gets in my bloodstream.
[00:23:51] Speaker A: That's true. But I will say that I would even, I don't even think that the, the Epstein gossip, so to speak. Now it has it too far in a lot of circles. But that to me still is serving that same purpose of you're trying to protect your youth, you know, and if that guy's a predator and he's working with other people, I mean, I think that's the key piece here. He's working with other people that are predators, then we do want to expose those people. That's, that's again the function of the gossip. The issue I have is, and that's in, you know, I guess our general proximity. Like that's operating a, that might be operating in South Florida. You and I are in South Florida, you know, so we want to have an idea if there's a bunch of guys running around snatching up girls and South Florida, but. Or that there have been and who they were, who they were, you know, doing whatever, so they're still there. I don't even point the finger at that. Like to me it'd be more so like, like you pointed out, if there's something happening in, you know, halfway around the world and that consumes us to the point where we can't deal with issues that, that we're also can gossip about that are affecting our day to day life. Like it's the, the further it becomes connected to your day to day life and your Own survival is where I think you have to exercise caution because like you said that that's when you get to the point where you become hope. You throw your hands up because you spend 90% of your time worrying about things that you're so disconnected from. And so you won't do anything because it's like, well, there's nothing I can do but sit there and worry and so forth like that. So that same you know, kind of stimulation can be directed at things that you can actually do something about or that you have some measure of control over, especially in a democratic society.
Or it could be directed at things that there's no level of control. And I don't know that we can decide that much what we, what we care about, you know, So I mean that, that kind of. We're stuck with that we can decide how much we engage with stuff. But, you know, we still are human beings, you know, like that's kind of.
[00:25:34] Speaker B: What we're just doing. But just a few.
Yeah. Is just because of what you said is. It is interesting as you said, because it gives me this national thing. So you. We've been talking about Epstein. We're in South Florida. That's why I was joking saying, yeah, there's still pedophiles here because, because it's Florida. We know our state is just crazy, but that's why we love it here. Not, not for that reason because it's just generally crazy.
[00:25:54] Speaker A: But yeah, I don't know why co.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: Sign definitely I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not walking us into anything crazy. But what I'm getting at is this is a true story though. When I moved into my house in 2008 and I've been living here for a while, my wife did look up because we have kids. She looked on that registry thing of the sex offenders, you know, who's a registered sex offender within. I think it was literally like a two mile radius of my house there. I remember she told me there were 28 individual people that were identified as registered sex offender. And that's why it got me thinking, like, yeah, we all focusing on someone like Epstein. And like I said, it's important. So I'm not going to diminish it. But the idea is that it's made me realize you think about like man, at the time, at least in 2008, there were 28 people within two miles of me that were behaving like this apparently. Or at least, you know, they got caught.
Correct. And that means as I said that. How many people behave like that and don't get caught?
[00:26:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:48] Speaker B: So it's. It's again, another just one of those that are our focus and our perspective. Where is it at? Is it on these big things that we can't control, like in Epstein? Or should I be looking at working with law enforcement here to make sure those 28 guys don't. Don't get on my kid or your kids, because they're actually closer and in proximity than someone like Epstein or whoever he was, you know, doing his stuff with.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: And that's actually. I mean, I would say also, though, that the existence of that list is an existence. Example of the quote, unquote benefit of gossip, you know, so.
[00:27:18] Speaker B: Yeah, good point. Yeah.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: And that's, you know, something that was structurally put in place, you know, to. To kind of, you know, provide.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: Now I'm gonna go find a list and we're gonna go find these names so we can talk about them. Maybe, maybe. Maybe we'll go to the front of the house and point at them too, and just talk about them.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: So, but no, I mean, I think on that note, it's time to close this up.
We appreciate everybody for joining us on this Call out. Subscribe to the podcast. Rate it, review it, tell us what you think. Send it to a friend. Until next time. I'm James Keys.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: I'm Tunde Walana.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: All right. And check out. We had an earlier show this week as well, so check that out and, you know, check out the page in general. Call it like I see it, and we'll talk soon.
