Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] James Keys: In this episode, we discuss the backlash to Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey and consider whether it's driven by ignorance or something a little more sinister.
And later on, we consider whether the recent move by one of the top HBCUs in the country to ban students from wearing bonnets and do rags to class and in the cafeteria is justified or over the top.
Hello, welcome to the Call Like I See it podcast. I'm James Keys, and joining me today is a man who's hit with a shebang. Tunde. Ogunlana Tunde. Are you ready to show us why you're cool enough to be the Iceman?
[00:00:51] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah, man. Shebang is putting a lot on me today, man. So audience, get ready.
[00:00:56] James Keys: All right, all right. We're recording on August 4th, and before we get started, if you enjoy the show, I ask subscribe, like the show on YouTube or your podcast app. Doing so really helps the show out. So Tunde in. We know that Christopher Nolan's the Odyssey has been one of the stories of the 2026 summer. At this point, its total worldwide box office is approaching a billion, making it one of the biggest R rated movies in history.
And it generally has gotten universal acclaim.
But as with everything, there has been a segment of people that are loudly upset about it. And one of the segments of people that were loudly upset, you had some historians and saying, oh, we, you know, this interpretation is a little different than the one that I would have done or something like that. But one of the segments of people that were loudly upset about this were upset predictably in some degree, because when you look at other fantasy things like Star wars and stuff, but they were upset because there were black actors in it and then playing, you know, prominent roles or roles that mattered, not just people in the background. And this was based, they say, at least based on the idea that, you know, this is about a story from ancient Greece. And so it's not historically accurate to have black actors and so forth now, now considering how close Greece is to Africa and how well documented it is that people were going back and forth between Greece and Ethiopia and Egypt and all that stuff for thousands of years, this seems to be quite a misinformed thinking that, you know, there wouldn't be people with darker skin complexion in Greece at that, but nonetheless, it made me think of something else. In George Orwell's book 1984, there's a quote that may also help explain what we're seeing. The quote is, who controls the past controls the future.
Who controls the present controls the past. So I wanted to Ask you, regarding this Odyssey backlash over the inclusion of black characters. Do you think that these folks are knowingly try to own the past in an Orwellian sense or are they just ignorant and misinformed as far as the history of the Mediterranean?
[00:02:57] Tunde Ogunlana: That's a great question, man. I would say it's a bit of both, to be honest with you. I think a little from column A little from column B.
Yeah, I would say this. I think the backlash maybe by some online and the majority, I would lean towards the ignorance and the misinformed on history and about how humanity has kind of worked. Right. You know, for thousands of years. But. And like you're saying Greece is thinking, I got this from you. Greece is closer to Africa and the continent and Egypt and all that than it is to England. So, so. And, and there's a huge sea which was an easy way for people to travel for thousands of years.
[00:03:37] James Keys: So much easier to get there too.
[00:03:40] Tunde Ogunlana: Exactly. There's. There's not a big mountain range called the Alps in the way, right. Like, like on a serious note and
[00:03:46] James Keys: a bunch of barbarians trying to kill you and all that other stuff. It's open sea now. There may be giants.
[00:03:51] Tunde Ogunlana: Don't go calling people. Hey, don't be calling people names, man.
But now. But I think what you identify as you were talking, it helped me realize because when you mentioned the Internet, I was like, yeah, you know what the problem is that the Internet is a place where grievance has been trafficked. And at least in this early part of the Internet's existence, let's say the last generation generation, you know, it seems like grievance, the kind of concept of misery loving company, all that is is is where the Internet likes to swim. And so I appreciate like you bringing up the numbers that it's almost at a billion dollars. It's been out like two weeks the box office, the number one R rated film ever in box office hit. So clearly what, what, you know, non black people being the majority of this country, let's just put it that way. Obviously the numbers this movie has been. Because a majority of non black people have been watching it. So that's. To me I would say that's a positive reality, the numbers. But I think the Internet unfortunately magnifies these voices in a way that we all have to then kind of deal with that too in our society. And I think I'll leave it at this. James with this comment.
I'm pleasant, I feel good and kind of pleasantly surprised at this one that it seems like the traction we've been seeing in recent years. But I was anti woke and kind of this, this, this, this desire to, to always put down something that is either non white or whatever. Right. Like that stuff.
[00:05:22] James Keys: Just be mad if something isn't either completely white or just totally white centered.
[00:05:27] Tunde Ogunlana: Correct. Yeah. I feel like this movie for whatever this time it feels a bit different that, that, that people don't seem to be responding to that energy in the way that they have in the past. And I, and I'm. And I think that's a good thing for the rest of us.
[00:05:41] James Keys: No, no, that's interesting thought. I think now I would say I would agree with you actually that it's a little bit of both. Like if you see government officials, you know, government officials trying to pedal stuff like this, I think there are people like that that are out there trying to own the past, you know, and saying, you know, ridiculous things like they do. From a historical standpoint, the Mediterranean is its own thing, you know, like what was happening in Greece and Egypt and the Phoenicians and all this other stuff for thousands of years, you know, that was, that was its own thing. That wasn't quote, unquote, Europe, you know, in the sense that we think about it now. So I think that there are people who are trying to claim, and this has happened for a long time who are trying to claim what Egypt or excuse me, what Greece was doing, which many note that really a lot of that came from Egypt. But setting the other side, what Greece was doing as hey, this is western, this is Europe, you know, this is that kind of thing. So I think that effort is being made. But I think the vast majority of it's people that are just ignorant.
And I don't think that the people, any of them are being genuine, you know, because what's always struck me about this, whether it be, you know, the Star wars stuff or you know, like these fantasy things, things that are made up, you know, fiction and how people will say, oh well, it didn't need. The characters need to look like this or they need to look like that is like. And people get these folks, this segment of people get so worked up about that. But yet these people don't get worked up about the idea that hey, is a real historical figure like Jesus, is he being accurately represented in terms of where he was front and from and all that type of stuff. Is the visuals that we see of him accurate? You know, and this is a real person versus you know, so, so these people want to claim what fantasy, what, what things out of people's imagination, have to look like, but they don't object to what a real person, if they're portrayed in a way that wouldn't be historically accurate. So I think they're not genuine. And so hopefully what we're seeing and I. Obviously, this is going to be a little bit more going on than what we're actually seeing. But some people are always mad about something, you know, like law, law, 1048, laws of power, avoid the unhappy and the unlucky. You know, like, so maybe what you're observing is that, okay, people are getting kind of tired of this act. I don't know if that's the case, but at minimum, I do. I, like, I. I advise people when I talk to people. It's like, look, you got to understand when somebody's just a mad person or an angry person or just always has something that they're complaining about, you need to kind of be away from those people because they'll just make you mad like them, you know, like, that's kind of that. That stuff transfers. You know what I'm saying? And so to me, these are. They're either pushing some sinister agenda or they're ignorant and just mad. Their ignorance allows them to be mad. But they're all disingenuous as far as this goes, because these people don't care about historical accuracy. If they want to play this game, say what they're about, they want to. They want to claim all history as white European, just say that and then we can have the argument or the discussion or whatever.
[00:08:24] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah, I mean, and that last comment even shows to their ignorance about Europe. I mean, this idea of white Europeans is a myth.
[00:08:33] James Keys: Well, it's a recent invention. You know, it's the last couple hundred years that they came up with that idea, because you go back a couple hundred years and the Eastern Europeans weren't. Or the Western Europeans didn't think of themselves as the same as the Eastern Europeans, you know, and then we go back further with the Franks and all this, other than, like. So there's a lot of, you know, a lot of stuff.
Even if that's the Great Britain, there's the Wales, the Scottish.
There's a lot of people that are like, hey, hey, until recently, looked at themselves as very different.
[00:09:04] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah, well, that's a different thing when you know more about the history of Europeans than some of these people in America that claim to know European history. Like you said, the Franks, the Rus, the Visigoths, all that stuff. And these people are pretty ignorant to the Fact of that type of what I would call beautiful diversity Right. In humanity. It's kind of like the Middle Eastern tribes of the Alawites and Persians and all that, or the African tribes. Like my dad was Yoruba, and that's different than Hausa and Igbo. And so the reality is it's all the same from that standpoint. But people like you said, the misinformation and kind of. I think part of it is just the culture of eugenics from the late 1800s to the early 1900s, really changed the way the Western world, in terms of European descendants in Europe and around the world, like Australia, Canada and the United States, those people looked at themselves. And I think part of it was
[00:09:58] James Keys: because, remember, remember eugenics, the Eastern Europeans were one of the bottom people, you know, like, I don't know, you know, But I get your point. Your point is well made. But like, it's. They're not even following the eugenics stuff really either.
[00:10:13] Tunde Ogunlana: Well, that's because it's all about power. Right?
[00:10:15] James Keys: There we go. There we go. And making powerful. Feeling better. You know that. Yeah, but go ahead.
[00:10:21] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah, because we've lived through it. I mean, when I was a kid, to be white was to be what was considered a wasp. White, Anglo Saxon, Protestant. That's very direct. Right. That's not Slavic. That's not Italian, that's not Greek. Right. And today, like we did this Show on the 2020 Census, they allow Egyptians and Greeks and Italians to classify in the American census as Caucasian.
That wasn't happening when I was a kid. Italians were.
[00:10:47] James Keys: That was the way they were supposed to classify.
They weren't allowing them. They were saying, hey, this is what you're supposed to do. Yeah, yeah.
[00:10:53] Tunde Ogunlana: And so that's what I mean is the idea. That's why the idea of race is really about power and proximity to power. And, you know, and that's kind of what I'm saying is I realized in preparing for this discussion, like, yeah, this is just all an offshoot of kind of the history of colonialism in recent hundreds of years and by the kind of period of Darwin and writing his great book about the origin of species in the late 1800s, certain people took that culturally and said, okay, well, the fact that we got railroads and stuff like this means that white people, quote, unquote, must be the most dominant. This Darwinian look. And saying that other humans aren't equal or as good. And when you have that kind of indoctrination, because remember prior to the Holocaust of 19, you know, the Second World War ending in the middle of the 20th century, 1945, we had eugenics taught in Ivy League schools in the United States. And we had a president of Woodrow Wilson, who was president of Princeton University prior to being President of the United States, who taught eugenics at Princeton and who was a firm believer in it. And he was the guy that segregated the federal government in the 1910s. So again, this is the part of history that gets swept under the rug, just like reconstruction and no one wants to talk about. And here we are 100 years later and we don't talk about the influence of this type of thinking onto the modern culture of today. And that's where I think, James, this is crashing up against that reality that history is not what these people have fantasized it to be. And as that those realities begin to play out, they're going to have an issue with identity and we're going to see it play out.
[00:12:34] James Keys: Yeah, well, no, I mean, that was the effort to own the past at that time, you know, and so. Yeah, as a good point.
[00:12:40] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah. About the Orwellian.
[00:12:41] James Keys: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so owning the past was important to them at that time. And, you know, like that it makes sense that it wouldn't just go away magically now. But here's the, here's the question I have for you. Kind of, you know, rubber meeting the road for some things.
You know, the idea like the. The United States, at least from a cultural standpoint, has it been able to get past this stuff to kind of advance and move past the need of some, to kind of justify their own self worth by claiming these old things and stuff like that.
Do you think this is something that America would ever be able to outgrow?
I would point to sports as an example where we've seen over 100 years or 120 years, a change in how Americans view themselves in relation to sports.
If you go back 120 years, it was very important to the majority group to be superior in athletics as well. You know, and so. And many efforts were taken to make sure that that was kind of. That people couldn't see anything that would challenge that. You know, this was, this is what, you know, you got the Negro leagues separate from the major leagues. You know, you had boxing, you know, like all these places where sports were popular. Effort was taken to make sure that they didn't mix so that nobody could ever challenge or question whether or not the majority was a superior group. But integration happened with that stuff and the world didn't end and people kind of Just, you know, moved on. You know, it wasn't like something every time a black guy wins the heavyweight championship or a black guy, you know is playing a sport, it's like, oh my gosh, this is some crisis, you know, what's happening. This isn't historically accurate.
So do you think this kind of thing is something that people would be ever be able to get by? And I know we want to wrap up, so get your thought and I'll throw in.
[00:14:27] Tunde Ogunlana: That's a good question, James. And I want to think more positive. I'm going to say no, but I'd like to think more. Now I'm being serious and I'll explain why. So as you're talking, I laugh because I can see you're struggling with the answer no. But I wrote down the name Jesse Owens from 1936 as you were talking because you're right. I mean, again, we're starting to get obviously more removed from this history. We're talking 90 years ago now in 1936. So we weren't alive. Most people listening to this wouldn't have been alive.
But the idea was that was still during the height of eugenics culture.
You know, the Nazis were just kind of starting in their reign in their power. By then they had been in power for three years in Germany. And you had the 1936 Berlin Olympics, which was touted as, you know, Germany was going to show the rest of the world how these Aryans were so superior. And like you're saying, James, back then it was superior in all ways, meaning all ways that they were superior. So Jesse Owens being a black American sprinter was, you know, for people that don't know that history blew a hole in that whole thing because he beat the Aryan German sprinter. And it was like, well, you guys aren't superior this way. So James, that's the part we didn't live through, right? We grew up with now them still trying to say that, oh well, we're superior mentally in all this. And again, we have a black man become president in the United States.
And I'll say this in a positive way. Obviously he won both elections fairly and cleanly. And the second one was a landslide, historic, with a lot of white American support.
But he also disturbed enough people with his presence in that position that I think that other actors that might not have had the same goals for the long term direction of the country in terms of the big middle class and the New Deal and all that, were able to hijack it along the way and take us to where we are today. Where the system is being unraveled. So that's why I say, James, I don't know, because you have a United States that's founded on cultural memes like Manifest Destiny, like Christian nationalism, and a lot of things that do incorporate for a lot of Americans, not all of them, but the idea that this is a white Christian country.
And you and I saw an article in a study that showed that 40% of white Americans today believe in the Great replacement theory.
So if you are a country that has 40% of the majority group basing the country on what they feel is their racial identity, and the country is continuing to change demographically, I don't know if that can be uncoupled from the American story.
So I don't know. That's what I'm saying.
[00:17:16] James Keys: Interesting.
[00:17:17] Tunde Ogunlana: Sorry for the rant that was long.
[00:17:19] James Keys: No, you're skeptical that it can be. And I can appreciate that.
Whether it will happen or not, I'll be optimistic and say yes. And I have a specific reason. It's not blind optimism.
I think that if you take too narrow of a view, there's always progress and backlash that goes back. Even the Dr. King book that we did, Where Do We Go From Here? He talks about that. So the progress backlash. Progress backlash is a normal part of the American experience.
You know, I mean, if you look at what was going on in the 19 teens, you know, you could say that America's dealt pretty well. You know, like we haven't had these huge riots of people and then people getting lynched and all that kind of stuff in the way that we did, you know, in the nineteen teens and early twenties. Nineteen. Early twenties and so forth, in the backlash to other things that were going on.
So, you know, in that sense, the backlash that we may be living through right now would be less severe, less extreme. So.
But the reason I would say that I'm more optimistic on this than you is that I think the path to doing this has already been shown and already been established. And you brought up a great example of this, Jesse Owens. One thing that I do think that let me back up the way you would be able to overcome this or outgrow this as a nation, as a culture, people need something to feel good about.
That, I think, is the established part. And so what is offered to many in the majority group to feel good about is race right now. And that's compelling, that's overwhelming for some of them. And so they latch onto that. The bigger issue may be that they're not being offered other things to feel good about. And so maybe if they're being once Americans, like, nationalism is another thing. Nationalism can take negative terms, but nationalism also can be used to bring large numbers of people together. And, you know, Jesse Owens. That's a nationalism thing. Americans, by and large, we're happy to see Jesse Owens won even though it was a racist country at that time. Well, you know, it was a racist country even though it was a racist country, but that was because of nationalism. That was because, hey, that's our guy, so to speak. So I do think there are other. What would have to happen is that skillful politicians who don't want to take the system apart or maybe who want to hold the system together, hold the country together, would have to give people things to feel good about. Nationalism can be one, hey, building the largest middle class was another. Building the largest middle class in the world. And then you end up having the civil rights movement. And it works, you know, like, so there are other things you can get people to feel good about. The issue that we run into a lot of times is that the people who do want to. To tear things down to. To claim as much of. Of the spoils of society for themselves, they're always working on this stuff. They're always trying to figure out how. How can we turn people against each other so that we can run away with all the loot, you know, and so people who don't think like that, they kind of fall asleep at the switch a lot of times and then aren't woken up until things are in the darkest moment. It's like, oh, no, what's happening? So maybe we're in that process right now, but I know we want to wrap any. Any comments before we close this up.
[00:20:26] Tunde Ogunlana: No, I mean, I think it's just. It's interesting. I think I appreciate your positivity on this topic because you make me feel warm. You make me feel warm and fuzzy.
[00:20:35] James Keys: But I'm gonna give you something to
[00:20:36] Tunde Ogunlana: feel good about, man. Yeah, well, I'd say this because, you know, it's a good point you make about nationalism. Like, that's why I've never been offended by the term America first, because I do think that that does mean something. And it can be something positive. It doesn't have to be negative. Obviously, there's ways it can. It's been manifested to be negative.
But I agree with you. And, you know, I just think that unfortunately, our country, as much as I love it and our culture, we Tunde. And I guess kind of like a bad marriage, we tend to not want to discuss the things that the baggage that is kind of in that closet. Right. And if you just look in that closet and deal with the baggage, probably things will work out for everybody a lot better. But we seem to not want to do that and, you know, let's see. So I hope you're right.
[00:21:27] James Keys: All right. All right. Well, well now. Well, we appreciate everybody for joining us on this part of this episode. We'll have a second part coming out soon as well, so please join us for that as well. Till then, I'm James Keys.
[00:21:38] Tunde Ogunlana: I'm Tunde Obama.
[00:21:39] James Keys: All right. We'll talk soon.
All right, Tunde. For our second part today, we wanted to discuss these recent reports coming out of Tuskegee University down in Alabama, which is a historically black college university, a prominent one. And what they've done is announced for this school year is they've announced that they have a new dress code and it bans the wearing of bonnets, do rags like house shoes, things like that to class or in the cafeteria.
The thought process being they're trying to better prepare the students for professional world and so forth. Now this says there have been people that have applauded this saying, hey, it's a good idea, we should do this. Then there's also been people that have been very upset about this and saying, oh, it's wrong. It's not something they should be doing. It's attack on black culture.
So what was your reaction to seeing the Tuskegee Band do rags and bonnets in class and, you know, cafeteria settings
[00:22:37] Tunde Ogunlana: as a grumpy middle aged dude? I like it.
[00:22:41] James Keys: I love the way you prefaced that.
[00:22:43] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah, F them kids, you know, stop dressing like a loser. It ain't Walmart over here, you know. Nah, man. Look, I'm a fan of it generally, Right. I know we'll get into some nuances about, you know, what may or may not be fair. But I think generally I'm a fan of it. Like I'm a fan of, I think kids in all public schools should have some sort of uniform or dress code. Doesn't have to be a shirt and tie for the boys. It could be a polo shirt. But it's still, I think it, you know, there's been all these psychological studies too about when you dress a certain way, you know, how you feel about yourself, all this kind of stuff. So I think there's a lot of positivity to it. I think I was looking at Tuskegee University itself. The recent new president and CEO of the university is a recently retired U.S. air Force major general.
So it's like, all right, you know, he's a serious dude that made it really far in the military, which is not easy, and which requires you to behave a certain way and act a certain way. And the military has uniforms. Right. And I think, you know, it made me think of certain things. Like, I never liked that John Fetterman, who's a senator, wears hoodies and shorts into the U.S. senate. I think that's B.S.
i think that a senator should wear a suit to work, just like us business guys wear suits. And you attorneys wear suits into a court.
[00:24:02] James Keys: Yeah.
[00:24:03] Tunde Ogunlana: You don't wear a hoodie into a courtroom when you're trying a case. So I look at it in that way that. And it reminds me to. I'll finish my rant with this. I remember the NBA guys were starting to, I guess in the eyes of David Stern, who was the commissioner at the time, starting to look a little bit too thugged out, wearing wife beaters and big gold chains and stuff to press conferences. And in 2005, the NBA forced a dress code that you had to wear business casual attire, at least to. To a press conference. And there was the same kind of reaction. Oh, you're beating up black culture. Oh, you know, we don't. And it's like, in the end, I think it helped the NBA. Everybody's better off. Guys, you know, carry themselves a certain way, looks a little bit better.
Marketing and endorsement deals are flowing, you know, like.
So for me, it's not something that I am offended by.
[00:24:54] James Keys: Yeah, no. I mean, I would say just from a big picture standpoint, I don't think it's completely out of line or overstepping. So this is an educational institution. If they want to raise the standard that they want to require of the people at that institution, so be it. If they want to try it, then great. And then they can evaluate. As long as they evaluate to see if it works, see if they like the outcomes, if it's. It. Does it drive students away, like, oh, we're not going. The best students aren't coming here because of this, then they may change. If it doesn't, or if performance improves, then you learn something, you get a data point. What I don't like about the entire discussion, actually, is the. The unwillingness to try new things.
You know, like, there's a lot of complaining that goes on about how colleges, particularly for the money, but even. Not even just. Just the very amount of money that people are paying aren't adequately preparing students for the real world, so to speak, or the real world is turning in ways that the way that colleges are preparing people is if there's not, there's a misalignment now. So I think we should be trying a lot of things at colleges right now to try to figure out how to make college worthwhile. Now one of those could be lowering the cost, but try to make college more worthwhile because as a, as a experience from a social development, you know, all that kind of stuff, it's, it's a very good experience for people. It's something that people can have, you know, young people and so forth. So there, there is value that college can add to people's lives. So we should be trying more stuff, not less stuff in terms of how can we make the experience something that people get more out of. And that can be hard skills, like actual training for things. And that could be soft skills like you dress a certain way like you said, and then you, you. The studies have shown that people take things more seriously or whatever if they're in a more formal outfit, outfit setting.
So to me it's really just about, if they want to try this, let the market dictate, okay, try it. See how it happened. And then if five years from now, if it seems like the results are getting worse at this place, then you move off of it. You don't stay committed to it at that point. But I also, and I would agree with you just in terms of like the idea that it's a historically black college or historically back university, which I'm an alum of, Howard University, I mean, so I can appreciate that. Oh, is this university now where it's supposed to be a place where black folks in the United States can go and feel, you know, feel one, feel, feel safe, don't feel like an outsider, then you're doing this, are you? Is there a betrayal there?
And I have a hard time saying to me, coming to the place that bonnets and do rags and house shoes are like some part of black culture that can't be separated out from blackness, you know, so that part to me is a little just like, I don't know, like you go to a black owned business and it's not, you don't have the expectation that you can just show up in and whatever type of garb and it's like, oh, well, this black owned business is, you know, abandoning black culture because they won't let me show up in certain kind of dress. So like, I think that's a, that's a misdirection that's not really the issue right here. It's an educational institution. So if they want to raise their standards to try to create a better outcome for the students, let them try, you know, And I don't know if it's like everybody's always so sure that everything is either going to work or not going to work. I don't know if it's going to work or not or if it's going to improve the setting or not. But it's worth a try. I mean, uniforms and other settings have made things better, you know, so let's try it and see what happens.
[00:28:16] Tunde Ogunlana: It's funny, I'm laughing because as you were saying about the black, other black, like a black owned business, you just, if you just expected to walk into like some fancy restaurant with a durag and a bonnet, you know, if it's a black owned restaurant and you're like, man, don't you know when they, this
[00:28:31] James Keys: is black culture, bruh.
No, what are you talking about?
[00:28:34] Tunde Ogunlana: That's funny because in other instances when non black people talk like that, it's very offensive. And I think it's as offensive for somebody's kids to be coming from that angle too, to say, oh, you're hurting black culture because you won't let us wear a bonnet and durag. Like, really kid?
Is that all you think it is?
[00:28:52] James Keys: Well, but that's, I think that's people who aren't in favor of it. They're looking for reasons to try to bolster their argument, things that might appeal to people or sound, you know, sound compelling, you know, but I don't think that like that, that my point is that that argument to me doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Now one place I am sensitive to is, and then, and this is why I was glad the way you prefaced your comments, that you weren't in favor of it. And again, for me, just to be clear, I don't think that it's something that has to be done. But if a guy wants, if the leader of the school, leadership of the school want to try it, I think that they should be entitled to try it and see what happens, you know, without everybody first, like second guessing them or, you know, everybody who's so sure about everything that's going to happen every time somebody does something is just that's nuts to me, like try stuff.
So one thing though, that I am careful on this though, that I like and I mentioned to you beforehand, like there's one thing that we have to make sure that because you're. I'm a guy with short hair. I'm a man. Short hair. You're a man with a bald head. So, like, the idea of having to wake up an hour earlier or an hour and a half earlier to do my hair or to get my hair a certain way is not something I can relate to, you know, and so I wonder, you know, do. Do you think, you know, as a. Again, as a man who shaves his head and are you. Are we. Do we have a blind spot here? And not just as an old guy, though. Forget the old guy piece, just not having to do your hair in the morning. Do we have a blind spot here? Bald spot, A blind spot here with the. The burden maybe that we're saying should be placed on particularly the women. But some guys, you know, spend a lot of time to do their hair, too. But, you know, on whether. And it's not a question of whether or not this. This can be done. It's a matter of whether the juice is worth the squeeze. Like, this isn't a professional setting, you know, this is school. So, you know, is it. Is this a higher burden than what should be placed on, you know, particularly, again, the people who have to do their hair in every morning and so forth? And then what needs be for this kind of setting?
No,
[00:30:56] Tunde Ogunlana: don't do your hair that way. You know, don't spend an hour on it. I'm thinking about, seriously, I think about when I went to university. I didn't go to hbcu, but, you know, it was in Miami, my university, Florida International University, which has a lot of black people and people with hair. That requires a lot of time, right? A lot of black, Hispanic, Caribbean people, all that kind of stuff down there. And so the point I'm making is I try to think back to 28, 30 years ago, almost when I was in school. And, yeah, I don't remember people. And the thing is, I used to wear a durag sometimes, and I would wear it when I try to get waves. I wear it with sleep, right? That's what it's for. And obviously I know that for men, durags have been a style to wear under a hat or in the street or whatever, but it's fine. But just don't wear the class, right? I don't remember a lot of guys wearing durags to class. I remember them wearing them in the dorms or walking on the street, but not into class. And so something.
I think something has changed in our culture and society, meaning American culture and society that for whatever reason, kids are dressing like this wherever they go. And I think it's not just university, I think it's all over the place. Well, mentioned Walmart, I mentioned the airport, right. I'm thinking about how many people I see go on a plane. When I go on a plane and they're in pajamas or the chick got her rollers in her hair and it's like. So it's like it's not just this university setting. It seems like something's happened in the last generation where Americans, some of us just roll out of bed and show up somewhere and don't take the personal care of hygiene and how you feel about yourself and how you look and going somewhere. And so, you know, I can appreciate that as a young person because I was thinking about this James. I was like, all right, I am middle aged, like how would I feel? And I was like, yeah, I remember when we were kids in the 90s and a cedar Loris Tucker's talking about Tupac is ruining kids brains and all this. And you know, you always have that kind of feeling of all these old people. They don't understand us young people and you know, they're, you know, whatever. I'm sure that's every generation.
But I just think that this is not a big ask for people even because I remember there was a lot of girls, whether you go to class at 9 in the morning, their hair was just pulled back in a ponytail. You could tell they weren't sitting there for five hours trying to do their hair. They were there trying to study. Like you said, it's an educational institution. It's not a club.
So that's it, that's how I feel about it.
[00:33:22] James Keys: No, it's, for me, I'm more hesitant than you in the sense that. Not the durag part as much, you know, like with the guys, like the guys, I, I know the guys experience more or less, you know, so I, I don't feel like I have as big of a blind spot like you said, like you, you, you do what you got to do, you know, like every day doesn't have to be, you know, if you fear a guy with longer hair every day, that's not going to be an A plus day, you know, but for the women, I'm a little more, a little like, I'm a little more concerned that I might have a blind spot because as you just said, we want to encourage people or you think it's good to encourage people to when they go somewhere, be more presentable, you know, so it's like, well, on one hand you say that and on the other hand it's like, oh well, just put your hair back in a ponytail. And it's like that may not be something that people are comfortable with in that sense. Like they want, if they're gonna do their hair, they want to do it right. And if they're gonna be out, you know, and people are gonna be seeing their stuff, they wanna do it right. So I get that and the fact that it's. Then if it's a workplace, then you don't see people banging the table saying, oh well, you know, people should be able to show up at a workplace with, with any, with anything, you know, in their, the way they look. But college is in a workplace.
And while it should prepare you for a workplace, saying that automatically knee jerk.
The standards of the workplace should apply here no matter how much extra inconvenience or work that it requires on some, but not all people is something that gives me a little pause. But again, this my thought on this. Like, you try, I could see how this could create a very, very, very big problem for some people. You try it in good faith, you see how it works out. And then if it's something that it's like, hey, this is creating our girls are all showing up or our girls aren't even taking classes before 11 o' clock anymore, you know, or girl, like people are having a hard time doing this or doing that, then we can adjust in, in the future, you know, like I don't think even if that the juice might not be worth the squeeze. Let's find out, let's get the data points, let's see what happens. And so like my overall point with this is, is kind of, you know, what I made before is just that, yes, this potent, this could be a good point. It could be, this could be like, oh, you know, you're, you're putting such a burden on the girls and everything like that, you know, and so it's not fair.
All of that may be true. That's not a reason not to try it.
That's a reason to say, hey, let's, this may be something we have to try and then sunset or adjust next year it might be a little different and so forth. Like so it's not like we're setting this and has to be like that for the end of time. It's like, let's see. So you know, for me, from my standpoint though, I am more sensitive to the potential blind spot I have because yeah, I can get out of bed for my hair. You know, I brush my teeth, I shower and all that, but my hair, I'm just like that. And that's it, you know? So I don't know what it would be like saying, oh, yeah, I got to get a bed at 4 in the morning in order to get my stuff so that I can be presentable. The way that in the spirit of what they're trying to do, the spirit of what they're trying to do is they come to come to class presentable. So it's not like, oh, well, just do the next best. The next least amount of work thing.
[00:36:30] Tunde Ogunlana: Well, you're a nice guy. Your family, your wife should be very happy of who you are, a very empathetic man.
The kids would definitely have much more fun with you as their headmaster than me.
[00:36:41] James Keys: So.
[00:36:42] Tunde Ogunlana: So that's how we're gonna end the show.
I don't want to hear it. You're here to get an education first. Get a degree, man. Good shot back.
If you can't show up before 11, that's your problem. We're starting class at 8. Don't wear a goddamn bonnet. That's. That's exactly would be my attitude.
So. So that's it. Because you're here to get an education so you can go make a lot of money and have the best hair you can when you're an adult for sure. That's. That's basically my message.
[00:37:05] James Keys: All right. All right. Well, there you go. Yeah, good cop, bad cop, man. So, you know, you'll have your university, I'll have mine, and then we'll see whose university rises to the top. That's. That's the way it works. So.
[00:37:16] Tunde Ogunlana: But we appreciate our cheating. You're gonna cheat in sports, so that's what I'm telling the audience.
[00:37:22] James Keys: Hey, man, don't start setting excuses already.
[00:37:24] Tunde Ogunlana: Yeah, and I'm gonna have better accreditation.
[00:37:27] James Keys: There you go.
[00:37:28] Tunde Ogunlana: And we're gonna. We're gonna give doctorates, and we're gonna have a law school and a med school.
We'll see. See.
[00:37:33] James Keys: But now, we appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call.
[00:37:35] Tunde Ogunlana: It's another show.
[00:37:36] James Keys: Subscribe to the podcast. Rate it, review it, tell us what you think. Send it to a friend. Till next time. I'm James Keys.
[00:37:41] Tunde Ogunlana: I am Tunde Ogmana.
[00:37:43] James Keys: All right, we'll talk soon.
