Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Up next, we discussed the effort by the Trump administration to shield clergy from having to report child abuse or more so, having liability if they don't report child abuse that they're aware of.
Welcome to the Call Like I See it podcast. I'm James Keys here with Tunde Oglana. And for our call out this week, we're going to discuss the ongoing effort by the Trump administration in relation to a law in Washington state that's going to require clergy to report child abuse that they become aware of. And the Trump administration is working to get that law overturned or held unconstitutional. And it's quite an effort going on as we're going to get into. So, Tuna, you showed me this story from the Rolling Stone about the Trump administration's effort to block this Washington state law that will require the Catholic priests to report child abuse that they learn about, even if they learn about it in confessional.
Now, this type of duty already attaches to professions like medical profession and other duties that interact with people and oftentimes have some level of confidentiality.
And where this one where the legal argument here is over First Amendment and right to practice religion and whether specifically during confessional, if the rules of the church say that has to stay quiet, can the law then create something inconsistent with that and make you have to report it when it's something like child abuse? And now with that First Amendment stuff, what it is, I think reasonable minds can disagree on whether the law itself, what are the bounds of the constitutional argument and so forth. But also interesting in this case is as a part of trying to sell this, because what they're doing here is saying, hey, we don't want these people to have to report child abuse. So obviously the public argument is the argument made to the people. It's not going to be, hey, we, these people should not have to report child abuse. But what they're saying is that they're calling the law an anti Catholic law. So what do you make of both, you know, kind of the bigger picture here. And then also just this kind of this framing of this as an anti Catholic law. And then to say, I mean, obviously this would apply to all religions. This wouldn't apply just to Catholics.
[00:02:10] Speaker B: I'll start with a smile and say we're in late July of 2025 as you stated. So we're in the height of also the administration absolutely running away from having to discuss the Epstein issue. And I smile when I say that. But that's why I said this kind of does look bad in the way you opened up that it looks like another example where they're trying to give cover to people that have been documented as hurting children.
So I don't really know what to make of this. I don't know what to make of it.
[00:02:44] Speaker A: Is it.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Do people, some people in the administration along with.
And I want to be very careful how I'm making my words here and make this statement. I'm not here to cast any negative expursions on anyone's faith and the religion they practice, whether it's Catholicism or any of the other religions. Like you mentioned, they're fighting the law that would force any clergy that has some sort of confessional type of relationship with a member of their faith into doing this. So this could be Judaism, Jehovah's Witness, whatever.
[00:03:17] Speaker A: So you learn about it. You have to code of the authorities. Like that's correct. Regardless of how you learn about it. So, you know, that's the way that it's neutral in that sense.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Yeah. So I want to put it out there as we start this conversation that we're talking about the human beings that make decisions within the religious institutions and organizations, not the religious religion itself. So let me just be clear about that. So, but you bring up a great point because think about what we're discussing, that there are people in positions of leaderships in the, in these organizations that they themselves know that members of their clergy have done harm to children and they are covering that up. And so the question is why? And so there was a law passed by the legislature in the state of Washington that would, like you said, put clergy on the same legal level as physicians, you know, sports coaches, teachers, people that are in proximity with kids, that they have a duty to report if they see a child being harmed by another adult. Right. And so to your point, the Justice Department comes in and says that this is an anti religious law. And so a couple things stick out to me. One is this is the attitude of this administration that anytime they can find a way to drive a wedge in some sort of conversation in our society, they will.
The second thing is to try and make people of certain religions feel like they're victims, just like was done years ago with the concept of the war on Christmas. And just like it's been done recently on other topics with things like great replacement theory, all that that the majority group feels like they're the victims of society. So this is no different.
Now, the thing that I'll say, James, that, that I find curious and I want to get your thought on is.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: Like.
[00:05:13] Speaker B: It'S like they, they're gonna. They want to die on this hill about the children part. And that's to me why with the timing of this, with Epstein going on now, it's just interesting. And this to me, James, I wanted your thoughts about the First Amendment because to me, this is what the American story was founded on. This is why we don't legislate religion, why we're not the Taliban, that we have Sharia law, you know, or biblical law. Christian biblical law is the law of the land. We have a law that states that if you're under 18 and an adult starts touching you in a sexual way, that's against the law.
So this seems like also a battle about does a society want to go on a religious law or secular law that is separate from what a religion says they can and can't get away with?
[00:06:00] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I don't want to get into the First Amendment piece because I think that that's going to, I mean, your eyes will gloss over it. It's a. Because technically you're talking about an exception. Now normally the basic rule is that if you learn of abuse, you have to share it. And then a lot of states have an exception to that for clergy because of things like confessional. But a lot of states get rid of that. Like Texas doesn't have that exception. You know, like red conservative states. North Carolina doesn't have Washington trying to get rid of it. West Virginia. Now Washington is trying to get rid of that exception that for clergy to put them on even plane with everyone else. Now, whether again, whether that gets into the free exercise of religion, you have to make the argument that not reporting child abuse in that context is the free exercise of religion, which again is a.
I don't want to get into that, you know, because that's just, you know what, what really stands out to me more is the, the anti Catholic kind of framing of this because I don't know if intentionally or not that kind of frames Catholics as like having a problem with child abuse. Like, if you, if I make a law that is going after people who abuse children and then you respond to that law and say that it's an anti Catholic law, then it just, it really seems to be, it seems to put the Catholic Church out there and saying, oh well you guys now. And then this is in the history of what you shared with me the numbers the other day where, you know, it's like $4 billion in settlements over issues dealing with, with child abuse and so forth. And so like, to me, it's a really difficult issue for our society. Because what the Catholic Church has done in the past, what we know of is that beyond paying out settlements, is that when people have had issues with this, they've moved them around. Like they say, okay, you have an issue in the United States, we're going to send you to South America or we're going to send you. And so they don't necessarily remove the person from a position where they could do this again. They just move them around. Now, whatever reason that's for, if it's out of loyalty or out of trying to see the best in people, I don't know. But I think that type of conduct, and I think our society has established that that type of conduct is unacceptable. So what the Catholic Church in this instance doesn't deserve is the benefit of the doubt. And so just the framing. I think you said it well, when you're saying it's to create that victim mentality, is trying to make people feel like victims so that they then won't look up and say, well, what are we talking about? Like, you don't want them to ask here. It's like just, just start feeling like you're the victim. So you can get an emotional response and you can just hop on board with me, whatever I'm doing. Because this, to me seems like the type of issue that we should be able to come to an agreement on. I don't see why the church would want to have a framework in place that protects people, that abuses children, and I can understand why a state would want to eliminate that. So there should be some way that we can resolve this and come to an agreement. And, and like I said, they have in so many states, like, this isn't being challenged everywhere.
And maybe this is the first four way. Maybe, you know, this being president of their states has created discomfort and the church wants to get rid of it. But to me, just the that we're having this fight to me says more about one, the administration and two, our culture. That is just very concerning for me that if this isn't one of the type of issues that we can't all get on the same page with.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think to piggyback on the last point about our culture, because again, I feel like the administration is doing things that it feels will resonate within a certain part of our culture. And I think this is one example, we could cite many that have nothing to do with this particular topic. But on this topic, because this is what I find interesting, James, this is a very well documented issue starting in the mid-80s when the first kind of reports really started coming out, when people.
[00:09:58] Speaker A: First started looking into it closely.
[00:10:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And.
And that children that were abused were, you know, reporting it, making these claims. And then I know that there was a famous case, sorry, a Boston Globe investigation in 2002 that really brought a lot of what was going on to light even more.
And I'm going to read a few things from some of the articles we'll have in the show Notes. I mean, the archdiocese, for example, and this goes back to the point you made about the $4 billion in settlements up through 2024. I mean, I've thought about this, Jane, like you're saying about we're not thinking. Just as.
I don't think we just stop thinking about this. Most of us. Imagine any other industry that you Learned that had $4 billion not just since, like, sexual harassment settlements, but specifically about pedophilia, about grownups hurting kids sexually.
That's like. I mean, like you said, that would be unacceptable. Imagine, like, I thought about it, like, what if the auto industry, like, just companies like Ford, for some reason, you know, kids being leftover, allowing in a dealership, and then they were being raped. And we just knew that they would sweep that under the rug and that. And that auto salesman just gets moved to another dealership.
[00:11:09] Speaker A: If anything, the law, if anything in that. In that type of case, the law would actually give them more scrutiny.
[00:11:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So I just want to share a couple things. I mean, one is the archdiocese shared the names of 5,100 clergy, with more than three quarters of the names released just last year.
Blah, blah, blah. It says more than 160 continued working or volunteering in churches. Roughly 190 obtained professional licenses to work in education and medicine. And it says. It says since leaving, the church doesn't have committed crimes, including sexual assault and possessing child pornography. So why wouldn't we want these people reported to law enforcement when they're first found out they're predators that prey on children? And this seems to be a big topic in our society.
[00:11:55] Speaker A: That's the thing that we would want them, you know, and so the question.
[00:11:57] Speaker B: Becomes, so why not? That's what I mean.
[00:11:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: Question about our culture. Why are we not. Why are we looking in areas where there doesn't seem to be a lot of at least evidence?
And then the areas where there's actual evidence like this, where the church is acknowledging this has happened, the culture, the majority of the public doesn't seem fired up about this.
[00:12:16] Speaker A: That, to me, is the Biggest, that's the inescapable piece.
We have aspects of our population that are looking everywhere for every rock. Allegations of any type of thing, bad thing happening to a kid and they're looking everywhere. And then when we find them, they're kind of lukewarm on, on it. Depending on who they are, they're kind of lukewarm on whether we should go after them or what we should do.
[00:12:38] Speaker B: About it or hey, maybe no, there's a neon sign pointing to this and they're like, no, I don't see that sign.
[00:12:43] Speaker A: And so it almost seems like the, the behavior isn't their biggest problem. It's just that they have a problem with other, certain other people and they're just trying to accuse them of the worst possible thing in the world, you know, because. Yeah, I, I thought we all agreed that this was bad. I, I did. I truly did. And not that just a cudgel to try to go after somebody you don't like with. But I question now, amongst many people who claim to care about this issue, because I care about it, I want there to be less exemptions and excuses as to why someone doesn't have to report this if they see it or if we can get rid of them all, figure out a way to do that. That's what I would want to do. And so I just don't understand like these people who claim to care about this so much and are looking under every nook and cranny, they're trying to find it and they're showing up at pizza places that, looking for a basement that doesn't exist, but then we can read it in the newspaper. And they're like, ah, you know, well, maybe, you know, like, but we got to focus over here though. And it's like, so that part to me is, is just the, the part about our culture that I don't know if it's the chase that gets people excited about it and you know, like, and if somebody just like you said, acknowledges it, then it's kind of, oh, well, that's not exciting anymore. But nonetheless, it's a very big concern. One that this is becoming an issue that we're going to politicize now and then try to frame it in a way to activate people's kind of defense and say, oh, we're going to make you feel like you're attacked by calling this an anti Catholic law. But again, that to me seems to be an indictment, which I don't view the Catholic Church as being a completely compromised organization. I think that More needs to be done to make sure that bad people cannot operate with impunity in there.
You know, any institution, though, is going to be subject to people trying to use the institution for cover for things that they want to do. You know, so ultimately, I mean, I want to close this up here, but the. The fact that this is the type of issue that is seen as one that will activate. Like you said, people use things to activate their base or whatever, that this is the type of issue that is seen as one that will activate the base. And you don't see this great pushback like. No, no, no, no. Actually, we. We do want to do whatever we can to make sure that these type of allegations come to light. To me, just calls into question, generally speaking, whether the people who claim to care about this but aren't looking at this issue as one where we can make some progress. What they're really in it for, again, it just seems like maybe they just want to cudgel, to hit people they don't like with that. None of the issues they talked about that they care about, they really do care about, you know, and that. That kind of reflects. We did the book, you know, maybe a year, the Stuart Stevens book, It was All a Lie, which talks about.
[00:15:23] Speaker B: Greatest title ever.
[00:15:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that. Yeah. About how him as an operative in a political party, coming to find out later on that all the stuff that he cared about and that he talked about, the people he was working for as a political consultant, that was just stuff that they were using to hit their enemies over the head or their adversaries over the head with, not stuff that they really cared about. So, you know, it's.
[00:15:43] Speaker B: I'll just say this, you're generous, because I do feel that some people at the top of this institution are compromised. But I know, you know, that we want to get out of here, so I will say you're generous, because I'm.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Sure that there are, you know, but it's just. It's hard to say that when there's the cloak of the institution, you know, because, again, that's kind of the benefit of these people hiding in institutions is that it's hard to attack the institution for the behavior of individual actors.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: I just realized. So there's a deep state in the Catholic Church, too.
[00:16:09] Speaker A: That's what I'm.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: That's what I realized. You just said that's. Thank you for bringing that to my. To my mind. Well, yeah.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: And apparently they're working with the Trump administration to make sure that they can stay hidden. So there you go. Yeah, so. But I think we can wrap this call out.
[00:16:22] Speaker B: We got to get out of here. I'm about to go make a new show.
[00:16:25] Speaker A: We appreciate everybody for joining us. Subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what you think. Send it to a friend. Till next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: I'm tuned. Day one lineup.
[00:16:33] Speaker A: All right. And we have a main show this week, so check that out as well. We'll talk soon.
