Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: In this episode, we discuss the NFL's position that its diversity efforts, as far as it's hiring, make the league better. And put this against the backdrop of the current public hostility we've seen towards DEI policies in the government and in private companies. And later on, we'll react to a lawsuit filed by a Detroit rapper who claims that a Lyft driver refused to give her a ride because due to her weight.
Hello, welcome to the Call Like I See it podcast. I'm James Keys, and joining me today is a man whose takes sometimes make him among the infamous Tunde. Ogonlana Tunde. Are you ready to show the people why today is not the time for the shook ones?
[00:00:54] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes, yes. I'll let it go and we'll just do a show.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: All right. All right. Now, before we get started, if you enjoy the show, I ask that you subscribe and like the show on YouTube or your podcast app. Doing so really helps to show out. Now we're recording on February 4, 2025. And in the recent state of the NFL press conference that occurs annually during the Super Bowl, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell surprised many with his firm defense of the NFL's diversity in hiring efforts, an indication that despite the recent anti DEI sentiment that's been ascending across the US The NFL will continue its efforts. Now, when confirming this, Goodell specifically stated that it, quote, it does make the NFL better and that the efforts are, quote, fundamental to trying to attract the best possible talent to the National Football League. Which is not some bleeding heart justification for this, notably. So tune in with the high level of backlash we're seeing against DEI and diversity efforts in businesses that employ these.
What is your thought on the NFL so publicly doubling down on its diversity efforts and touting how good they are for its business.
[00:02:03] Speaker B: It's an interesting inflection point of this, I'd say, moment that we have culturally that I know you and I didn't bring up other Americans, our fellow Americans have brought up this DEI thing in a way that is showing their insecurity in a way that I haven't seen in my lifetime. So the interesting thing is that's why I said this is an interesting inflection point. Because the NFL as an organization generally is known.
Most people are pretty aware and seem to have been pretty comfortable with the idea that around 85% of the employees of the NFL are black, black American folks. So to to have this conversation creep into an organization like the NFL is interesting on its face. And then the fact that the NFL itself and football in America is such a cultural icon and such a kind of a meeting place for all of us Americans culturally. So I just find it very interesting. For me, it's refreshing personally that Roger Goodell really is standing his ground here. And it reminds me of others that we've seen recently, like Costco and Apple and certain other big corporations that have also stood up for the benefits of DEI in their organization. So to me, I'm glad to see it. And I think it continues to remind me that a lot of people that used to talk about private enterprise having autonomy and for government not to meddle with businesses and things like that, a lot of those people seem to be the ones that want to tell companies how they should behave internally in these ways, like how they should do to go about their hiring practices and people from the outside telling these businesses what they should do for that, that, that, like that what they're doing is not good for business when all the facts, including with the NFL, the NFL has only grown over the last decade or two. Right. So that's where I feel like it's very interesting that the NFL has been brought into this conversation. And again, I'm very refreshed that the commissioner is standing behind it.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I. To me, I think the NFL did a really good job of tying what they're doing to the why they're doing it, because I think we get lost a lot of times in the discussion of what we're talking about with efforts to increase diversity in hiring, whether you call that DEI or whether it's called affirmative action in some instances or whatever. But what you're trying to do. What the NFL recognizes, and Goodell actually talked about this, is that there is a tendency to, when you're looking to make higher, you talk to the people you already know, or you engage in nepotism or, you know, you hire your friends or your family, all these types of things. And you don't really canvas and really try to identify all of the potential candidates and then weigh them with in a way that will allow you to find the best people. The NFL has recognized that that's a tendency that happens. That's why programs like this are important. It's not because people aren't don't have merit to get or talent to get hired. It's because a lot of times people from different backgrounds or that aren't in certain social circ aren't going to be included when they're saying, okay, well, let's try to find somebody to work to do this job. People won't even be thought of, that may be talented. They won't even be brought into the room. They didn't already know somebody in there, or their dad wasn't the head of the company or something like that. And so there you create these blind spots or these blind spots are created. And what the NFL has recognized over the last 20, 30 years is that this is a way that you can address those blind spots and remove those blind spots. And the NFL most notably doesn't require, in terms of their primary effort is called the Rooney Rule. It doesn't require you to hire anyone, but it's. It's specifically about, hey, go interview additional people besides your son or the guy who you already decided three months ago that you wanted to hire. Go interview additional people. And that's, that's the requirement of the rule. So expanding, you know, removing your. The blind spots that are naturally created just by the way people operate and expanding out that horizon. And like I said, Goodell specifically said that this is something that they see as making their business better, and it's about trying to attract the best possible talent. So that's what we're talking about here. When, when. When he's talking about diversity efforts, that's what he's talking about. He's not trying to give somebody a handout or do give somebody and do somebody a solid. He's trying to avoid the blind spots that are created with these other things, these other things that happen all the time that people don't. There's no clever acronym for. But, you know, we're like nepotism or something like that, which does limit the pool and doesn't help you find the best possible people.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that that's why, to me, the NFL is such an interesting inflection point culturally for this, because most of us are used to seeing a lot of black players. I believe the statistic is about 85% of all employees of the NFL are black, or at least players. And so, you know, the idea of having an issue with diversity, equity, inclusion in the NFL, it's kind of a bit counterintuitive. But the fact that this is a culture war issue now and the NFL is a huge part of American culture, I just find it very interesting.
[00:07:22] Speaker A: And. But it raises a different issue. And I think implicit in there is the idea of management versus kind of workforce, you know, and so because that when the end, what Goodell's talking about is not them going around finding players, he's talking about the people that are. That are in management, the Coaches or the, the, the front offices and so forth. Not necessarily like the players. Yeah, they're not looking at those type of efforts for there. It's more about where things like nepotism and limited social circles do functionally limit candidates unless extra efforts are made.
[00:07:56] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think you're right because you and I are old enough to remember the idea of, you know, blacks weren't really sought out to be quarterbacks until probably the early 2000s. Right.
[00:08:07] Speaker A: Well, they weren't allowed to be in many respects when I was growing up. Yeah.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: When we were kids in the 80s, I mean, you would hear stories of that too. Guys that were great quarterbacks in high school or even snuck into college as a quarterback because it was starting in the NCAA level of, not of discouraging black quarterbacks from playing that position as they went higher in the ranks. So guys became kickers, safeties, all that when they were actually really skilled quarterback.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: Me tell you, let me, let me throw you out to some. Some of the rationale for that was that the black players weren't either strong enough from a leadership standpoint or they weren't smart enough to do these types of things. And that was. These were the things that were being thought of and said in the 80s and 90s that I remember hearing very. I was growing up then and now, you know, have a Super bowl with two guys, two black quarterbacks playing. And that's not, this is not like the first time. Like, it's not Even, you know, MVPs and stuff like that. So it's interesting how. Because you kind of hear these justifications now as far as competence, like, oh, well, if we bring in different people, if it's not just the boss's son, then somehow we are not getting the most competent people or something like that.
[00:09:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it's going to be good. Joke. No, I'm just thinking as you're saying it, I'm thinking that just happened to the US government. Did it?
Hey, I don't care if they're coming or not. Just come in. They're my buddies, you know, my kids and my, my friends.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we can.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: But anyway, that's a whole different conversation.
[00:09:26] Speaker A: Just like get all your buddies in. People will have a problem with that.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: That's where the DEI stands for didn't earn it. You know, that old thing. But in any case, just finishing up on the NFL. I think that's a great example, James, of in our lifetimes. And we're in our 40s, so we're not super ancient.
There was A cultural meme, if we can say it that way. And the cultural meme was that blacks couldn't play certain positions in professional sports because they weren't smart enough. And I think that there was a.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Competence issue which mirrors what we hear sometimes now as far as, oh, well, this is really about finding the competent. Like, and when you do dei, you're lessening, you're bringing in people that aren't as competent. And so we literally heard the same thing about black quarterbacks. Yeah, but, you know, you know, like.
[00:10:10] Speaker B: I mean, we're starting to hear that more and more in our society with other topics. And that's what I mean in these recent years.
And I challenge a few people I know personally to this. You know, I challenge them to ask, you know, say, look, before the year 2020, have you ever heard of three things, DEI, CRT, or the term woke? And they were honest and said, no, I never heard of it. And that's kind of. And then that allowed me to have a greater conversation and say, kind of, well, do you think every single problem, structurally in the United States came from those things, you know, that built up over decades and things that we all collectively will discuss and talk about, like outsourcing of jobs to foreign countries and automation and the lack of pensions out there and all the things that. And health care system.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: All the wealth is being accumulated at the top.
[00:10:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: So I'm saying, like, we get to this. Let me ask the question just straight out. Let me just set you up.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: You know, like, yeah, as you pointed.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Out a few years back, dei you don't like, though. That's.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: Hey, let's, let's. You ain't got to dance for me, man. But a lot of people hadn't heard of these terms, you know, the DEI and stuff like that. And so. And there have been some companies have embraced the idea of trying to broaden, you know, eliminate blind spots, broaden their pool of candidates and so forth for a long time. Others, you saw kind of a trend after the George Floyd summer and so forth, where more companies were embracing it. But it now seems to be this boogeyman. Regardless of why it started in different places or why the wording kind of got popularized in culture, it seems like this boogeyman gets blamed for a lot of society's ills. Like, a plane will crash and you'll start hearing about dei and it's like, what are you guys talking about? You know, like, they're not just putting people in planes who don't fly planes because of this or just pulling people off the street, but nonetheless, you know, not to get aside by that, but you'll see I get blamed for just random things whenever something goes wrong. It's a DEI issue. So why do you think, clearly that's intentional? Why do you think this is such a seductive scapegoat, you know, that can be thrown out there and people can, you know, like, buy it hook, line and sinker, no matter what. It's like, oh, you know, we just had an asteroid hit. Oh, dei. And I guarantee you that'll. That'll. That'll make some people feel like, oh, yeah, well, it makes sense to me. So why do you think it's such an effective.
[00:12:20] Speaker B: I didn't think of the asteroid, but that was funny.
So I'm thinking about how we're going to blame aliens for giving handouts to black people. So that's a whole nother realm. But remember, I'm going to go here. So first of all, for those listening that can't see, I put my glasses on, which means my cue just went up by 30 points. So this is going to be a good fun way to answer it.
James, I'm going to say something that's interesting. I mean, if you look at all of this, all of this hysteria, this is the great.
I think it's the great inflection point in American society and the big debate of our entire existence as a country, which is who belongs here, who's an American, so on and so forth. And as I get to that, I say there's some very important cultural memes that have existed for a long time in this country that I would say someone like me wasn't privy to from, like, growing up and talking to my parents at the kitchen table and all that. And one of those things is manifest destiny. And I think we need to do a better job of talking about these kind of cultural realities, that there's tens of millions of Americans that have been indoctrinated, if I can use that term, that is often used by some who oppose the things we're talking about here, like diversity, equity and inclusion.
But they're indoctrinated with a real belief that God gave their ancestors this country. I can appreciate that if you look at the religious refugees that came from Europe in the 1600s. You know, there was Plymouth Rock and the Pilgrims and all that, because they didn't want to practice Catholicism or they didn't want the Anglican Church on them, and they wanted to be Puritans and Quakers and all that. So can someone like that Believe that God gave them a land that they can practice freely. Yeah, I can believe that. But over the 1800s, something in a.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Religious context, people can believe anything, though. I mean.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Yeah, correct. And I could see it out of joy. Maybe they weren't trying to hurt other people. They just got to a new land and could practice freely. But I think over the period of the 1800s, the kind of culture of Manifest Destiny morphed into something greater. Now, one of the things, the reason why you and I didn't get those stories growing up is because this is where that idea also of who is an American began to form, where it was a certain type of white person from a certain part of Europe. It wasn't Russians and Greeks and Italians back then. It was Anglo Saxons. You either had to be Anglican from the British Isles or go, you know, through Saxony, through Germany.
[00:14:52] Speaker A: I mean, you did a lot there. So I just was kind of like, I want to kind of break it up a little bit. I think the Manifest Destiny piece is interesting because what that is ultimately boils down to, it can boil down to into a word, entitlement.
Certain people believe they are entitled to certain things in the United States. And so what you see, like this idea, this aversion, I think the DEI thing is such an effective boogeyman because it plays on existing attachments, existing sentiment. And so if, like you said, people that have been indoctrinated with this Manifest Destiny thing, a lot of us learn about it in history, talking about the expansion west, but really it's an entitlement. Hey, we are. We. These certain people are entitled to the benefits of this land. If somebody else is living there, you can kill them, no big deal, you know, or you can move them into a reservation or something like that. Like, we're entitled to this, we're entitled to that. We're in. So it's an entitlement piece. DEI is offensive to the idea of an entitlement. If you are entitled to all the jobs or to this and that, then the idea that you're going to try to incorporate somebody else and say, hey, let's open this up a little bit. Let's see, you know, if there's other people that are qualified or let's not just look in this one area. If we have a whole pie to look at, let's not just look at 50% of the pie. Let's look at the whole pie. That's offensive to someone who is entitled and saying, oh, well, hold up. No, no, no, this is mine. Regardless, there's no need to look outside of this. And so I think that the idea of the Manifest Destiny is really about the entitlement that comes from that. And that is why, that's one reason why the idea of DEI can be so reflexively and so quickly, having not been heard about for, for up until a few years ago, instantly can become something that's so meaningful to so many people, is because it taps into this existing entitlement. The other piece I'll mention, which I like again, to kind of try to, you know, make it a little tied a little more tightly, is just the idea. It's so. I think it's also tied into the idea of white supremacy. And so if you, as a baseline, if you, you know, what was the guy, one of the podcasters a few years back said, oh, if I see a black guy as a pilot, then, you know, I'm just going to think he's not as qualified. And it's like, well, I mean, you're just saying, like, that's a white supremacist mind, like that. You didn't look at this guy's credential credentials.
[00:17:05] Speaker B: You didn't.
[00:17:05] Speaker A: You don't look at the credentials of anybody else who get. When you get on a plane, you're literally just looking at the person and saying, okay, well, this person looks like this, so he must be worse than somebody who doesn't, regardless of any other thing. Because you know what? You have no knowledge of any other thing. So you're making that judgment based on.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: I jump in there and add something to what you're. Where are you going? What makes it even worse to me about a comment like that by someone like him is that then he, he plays the victim of it because he said, well, you know, I don't want to think like that, but it's because they have all these affirmative action and DEI policies that I have to think that, you know, somebody was just given something. And I think.
[00:17:38] Speaker A: And that fits back to what I'm saying. So to. What I'm saying is that because of that, a lot of people do walk around believing that the DEI type of program, or the affirmative, whatever it would be, is necessary because if everybody's left on their own merit, then a certain group would be the only one to succeed. And that's just not the case. You know, like that that's, that's very ignorant of American history and the amount of efforts, like, if you ever learn American history and you see the amount of efforts that were made to keep, you know, whether it be minorities like black people is an easy and easy example because we've seen the. When the color barriers are broken, how in meritocracies, it's not like, oh, they got to go find people that can compete. You know, it's like, okay, stop holding people back. People are just able to naturally get in. But it goes to the point I made in my first, in the first segment here when I was talking about how the biggest issue with a lot of these issues is the access piece. So with the dei, it's not necessary because there aren't, there isn't talent. It's necessary because there isn't equal access to all these things. And so it's trying to broaden these horizons, eliminate these blind spots more so not trying to go find people who otherwise wouldn't qualify. But it's very. Again, why is this so seductive? Well, if you have a white supremacy kind of mindset, it's very easy to believe that, oh well, the reason you need DEI is because everybody else is inferior. And so we got to put people in who aren't as good because other if we just did whoever's the best, it would only be, again, it would be the white person. But. And again, that's why I keep throwing out things like nepotism though, because that is more offensive to the idea of a meritocracy. But people don't seem to have as big of a problem with that. And I think it's because if they were in that position, they want to put their son and their daughter in too. So it's kind of something they can relate to a little better.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: Look, I think it goes back to tribalism. I mean, I'm not going to sit here and assume that most Americans of any stripe are comfortable with everything they're seeing so far in this early part of this administration. But when you're talking about the nepotism thing and we look at the amount of family members, you know, the fact that the daughter in law was put as the head of the RNC with no experience in kind of politics and stuff like that.
You're right, James, because like if we're.
[00:19:54] Speaker A: Talking about merit, like, yeah, a lot.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: Of these people don't have merit. Right to. And this is the thing, there's a lot of qualified people that have a lot of merit who have the same ideology as the people who are being put in these positions. Like, it's not about that there's nobody competent kind of on the American right or anything like that. It's like you said, this is straight up Nepotism, cronyism, whatever you want to call it. And, and this is the interesting thing to me.
[00:20:20] Speaker A: Those are. They're both. Those are both. So, again, if you were truly about. We have a problem with getting the best people in, you would think that the biggest issues you'd have would be nepotism and then chromy cronyism as well. But.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah, well, that's why. So that's why I want to talk about the DEI really, as a misdirection, because that's really what I think is going on. I mean, listen, the press conference, everyone made a big deal last week. I think that clearly I'd never been in a leadership class that would have taught me to behave that way as a leader. However, if you want to stay focused with it, what else was going on that day? We had confirmation hearings in the Senate for very important positions like FBI Director, National Director of intelligence, all that kind of stuff. So from a misdirection standpoint, what do you think some people would want the evening news to talk about when Americans are done with work, watching tv, do they want them talking about these people being confirmed who may not be qualified. Right. Because of what we're talking about. Maybe not nepotism, but cronyism in this case. Or would they rather have the news talking about the cultural explosions of. Oh, he talked about race and these.
[00:21:32] Speaker A: Which, you know, will drive clicks.
[00:21:33] Speaker B: Which will drive. Yeah. Which will misdirect everyone so that they can continue to do what they want. I mean, it's. It's. So there's a couple areas I want to go, James. One is the history part, which you mentioned. And I'll go through this real quick, because again, this is real life stuff.
We live in a state where two years ago our governor banned the teaching of black history in schools.
He didn't ban European history, Hispanic history, any other history, just our history. But the reason is, like you said, there's been three times in this country's history when the merit thing really was allowed to happen. One was reconstruction, and it worked. So then it was cut back with the 1890 Plessy versus Ferguson separate but equal ruling.
[00:22:17] Speaker A: Then we had the end of Reconstruction.
[00:22:19] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And then we had the 1960s, which led to Richard Nixon starting affirmative action in 69 and a bunch of laws all the way through probably 1980 that began to be rolled back by Ronald Reagan. And then we're in the third period of this kind of backlash because I think just Obama's presence broke a lot of people's brains. And if you have that Manifest Destiny kind of indoctrination, then, yeah, having someone that doesn't look like you at the top of the mountain leading the country is going to disturb you and break your brain.
[00:22:50] Speaker A: Shouldn't be possible.
[00:22:53] Speaker B: And so that's why I think, James, it's interesting why the full American history has not been taught, because it runs against the grain of Manifest Destiny and eugenics and a lot of things that other people want to still believe for some reason. Because if you really look at American history, you will see that the only time that one group was really able to dominate was when they replied force. And.
[00:23:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And legally and all that kind of stuff. You know, like, there were no black. Black players in the Major League Baseball for all those years. It wasn't because they couldn't play baseball. It was because there was a color line, you know, like. And we've seen this in many instances. So that's why I think that history has shown, like, there have been these break points, you know, where, like, this restriction was lifted. And then you saw a place become more diverse organically, and then you saw efforts. They saw the backlash against that and to restrict it. I think the. The misdirection piece, though, and I do want to get out of here, but the misdirection piece is really, really, really good. I think that one other thing that we're observing here, and I want to add this to the mix here, you know, like, there's these mentalities on why it's easy for people to believe this or to become emotionally attached to it, more importantly than just believe it, but that it's something that can move them.
Part of it also, though, is the feeling that there is less opportunity out there. You know, there's less dynastism in our economy, or there's less available positions and there's less jobs available for people. And it's like, oh, well, that must be because of the DEI piece. And this is where it's also effective misdirection. Because what's happening in our society, and this is observable with any number of statistics and numbers, and all that is that wealth is just concentrating. I mean, you throw out a couple of times in the past few months, maybe how the richest man in the world doubled his net worth in the past couple of years. And it's like, that's all prosperity past.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Couple of months, man. What you talking about?
[00:24:41] Speaker A: That's all prosperity. That's not being spread amongst the population. Now, maybe he gets more of it than everybody else, but that's not going to anybody else but him, you know, and then this is across the board, the wealth classes, their net worth. Remember during the pandemic, all this stuff, they're all inflating in value and worth and all their resources are growing. And the middle, the working class and all that kind of stuff, they're kind of, you know, hanging in there but not doing too much or in some cases, they're losing space. And so if everybody in the middle class, working class is looking around like, where's all the money? And the rich people, the wealthy people are the ones with all the money, they're not going to say, yeah, oh, yeah, we got it. You know, we got the money. We know we, you guys don't. Aren't able. Making as much money just because we, we're holding it all, you know, don't worry about it. They're like, no, the reason you don't have opportunity is because some black guy took it or some woman took it or something.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: It was a Haitian ate your dog. That's why. What I said, because a Haitian ate your dog. That's why.
[00:25:36] Speaker A: But more, I mean, that's, that's a, you know, that's a separation I'm talking about.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: That's my point. That's misdirection.
[00:25:41] Speaker A: That's sentimental, that there's less opportunity. The reason there's less opportunity is because there is less money circulating through the system because the people at the top are hoarding all the, all the spoils. They're taking them and they're hoarding them. So there's less money flowing through the system means less opportunity. They're not going to own up to that, obviously. So they're going to come up with reasons why that's not going to. That's. It's not them. It's somebody else's fault. This seems to be something that's very fruitful for them as a misdirection on why there's less opportunity. So I think that you put all that together and it's pretty easy to understand why this is something we hear a lot. And I think we're going to continue to hear a lot because every time there is, you know, like, there has been a greater sharing of opportunity and growth of opportunity for, for all Americans, there's been a backlash against it every time that happens. And so, and we're living through the backlash right now. And there are many reasons why. There are many interested parties that have reason to continue this going. So I think we're going to see, I think we're at the front end of this. And so it's. It is. I agree with your sentiment from the beginning. It's good to see the NFL being like, no, no, this works for us. You know, like, we, we kind of see our blind spots. We see how we can make ourselves better, and it includes this. I think that's helpful. And then it's also good that they're willing to not just. And they said this specifically. We didn't get into this because it's on trend and we're not going to get out of it because of some trend. And so I think that's commendable. And then they're not company, you know, but it was very public that they did that this week.
[00:27:06] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I know. We want to wrap up. I'll end on this. I mean, I think that. And to your point that I'm glad that there's other large corporations whose share prices have skyrocketed that are maintaining the money doesn't lie. If you look at Costco's more than double the return of the S&P 500 over the last five years, and they're.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: One of the ones who are publicly saying that, hey, this works for us. We do it. This is our thing.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: Yeah, but, but no, I think just to wrap up is, you know, that's. To me, the sad part of this is that it, the misdirection is being used for a reason. And it's like the American, or at least not everybody, but the people that respond to this kind of stuff are showing us who they really are. Because dei, what everyone is finding out now after they effed around before, is that dei, actually blacks aren't getting the benefits of DEI in terms of all of it. Right. The largest benefit or even the primary.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: You know, they're not the primary beneficiary. Yeah, it's.
[00:28:04] Speaker B: It's white women who are the primary benefit. And I'm not here to bash white women. I'm glad that, you know, they can, they can benefit from it. But then also, it is truly about diversity of a lot of different times. So white military veterans are going to lose access to benefits from dei. White disabled people as well as white religious minorities. So people in religions that, like, maybe that's right.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: You're talking people of all races that have those.
[00:28:30] Speaker B: But what I'm saying is the anxiety around DEI has painted like it's some handout to black people. And what I'm trying to say is this is, this is the misdirection I'm explaining Yeah, yeah.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: That's what helps make the misdirection more effective. That's why the immigrants that were eating pets were specifically Haitian.
[00:28:45] Speaker B: That's exactly what I'm trying to explain.
[00:28:47] Speaker A: To something deeper in the people. It's like a bird call, basically, for. For the people who respond to that. It's, it's, it's. It hits them 100%. You know, whether it's.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: So that's.
[00:28:57] Speaker A: Go to Philadelphia, Mississippi, and say, I'm for states rights. Certain people that kind of just. It's like a dog whistle just passes over. But the people that are that hear it, it's like, oh, oh, oh, oh. And they get one of us.
[00:29:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And so that's what I'm getting at is I think we need to have a broader conversation in America is why this misdirection is always so effective. I mean, we could think of, like you said, Philadelphia, Mississippi, Willie Horton's another example. You know, it always works, and that's being pulled out again. And like you said, it'll be more interesting.
[00:29:26] Speaker A: I don't think the conversation needs to be about why. I mean, I think everybody, anybody who looks at this understands why. I just think the issue is there are certain conditions that make it more conducive, make it more effective than other conditions. And so, like, and I've told you this many a time, and I'm not gonna get into this now, but get out of the show. But I don't think it's a coincidence that the civil rights movement was effective 15 years after the New Deal. I think that there are certain conditions in society where the scarcity messages, the tribalism, turn tribals, tribe people against each other messages are more effective. And there are other times when they're less effective. Because the civil rights movement wasn't the first time black people tried to get right, but that was the first time that they were able to actually break through and get some stuff out, make some stuff happen. And I think there's no coincidence that that's also the time when wealth disparity in the United States was at its lowest. So. But I'll leave it at that, because I could go on that. That's a whole nother.
[00:30:17] Speaker B: Okay, Bernie. Okay, Bernie. Catch a moment.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: Hey, so. But I appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode. We're going to have a part two as well, so check that out as well, and we'll talk to you soon.
All right, for our second topic today, we're going to discuss this. This lawsuit by this Detroit rapper who claims that she was denied a ride by a Lyft driver who claimed that she was too big to get in the car. So, Tunde, I want to throw it to you, but what was your kind of thought on this? Because it was, this wasn't something that struck me as he just didn't like her because he thought the driver thought she was overweight, that he seemed to express concern for his vehicle and just whether it was safe for her to be in the car. Whereas obviously, we also don't necessarily want people going around just denying people services because of certain characteristics. So. And then in Michigan, it's illegal to deny somebody risk because of their weight. So, you know, what was kind of your thought on this lawsuit and just kind of the dilemma it presents from a societal standpoint, particularly as a pretty tall person yourself, you know, so you're an outlier in many respects. And then obviously you play basketball. So, you know, other people that are outliers from a size standpoint and have had to deal with inconveniences to say the least.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd say I'm at the edge of normal tall, what I call it, I'm six foot four. But you know, once you hit, you know, six, six and above, I figure you're, you're really tall. So, so yeah, I'll have some thoughts on that. You know, my experiences with, with my, my uniqueness.
But, but, but no, I, I, this was an interesting story, man, because I think, and I was going to say this, you know, that obviously we got to separate the fact and part of the conversation, the idea of someone being obese or overweight, however we want to call it.
And I know, like, I went online to look at Prepare today, which is something I often regret doing, which I did again for this one, but it's all good.
But because, you know, so many people are so rude, right? Like, they just tell her to lose weight and you know, all this stuff and it's like, all right, I'm going to separate all that out about us trying to tell someone how to live their life and what they should eat versus the, the legal part of the conversation here. As you know, should Lyft be held liable? Because someone has been. And you know, I know we don't have a video of her or anything. So for people that may not have seen this person, she looked like probably an average height person, but she weighs around 500 pounds, so she's very big. I mean, it's not.
[00:32:55] Speaker A: Let me restate that real quick. Just because that, yeah, we're not we didn't study Michigan law and the precedent and all that stuff. So I don't even know if. If Lyft should be held liable is the right question. I think it's just more so how as a society should we be dealing? Like, is this. Should the law prevent someone from doing, prevent a driver from doing something like this or is that, should that be okay? Like, I think more like a societal conversation. Like, how should we deal with an outlier size? You know, and again, I don't think it's much different. I mean, there's a difference, but if you're 7ft tall or if you're 500 pounds, you're clearly an outlier as far as size. What, what should I mean, what should the airlines do when. With that or the buses or, you know, Lyft as a common carrier, what should they do?
[00:33:37] Speaker B: What should I mean, look, hotels do.
[00:33:39] Speaker A: You know, all that stuff.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: I have to make adjustments. For me, when I travel coach. Let's say if I'm just going quickly to some city and I want to pay 150 bucks, I either have to sit in an exit row or I got to upcharge and sit in a bigger seat. Or you know, something because I'm tall and the way that they design regular coach, economy class type of seats in an airplane, my knees are just bashing up to the front, you know, of the, of the other person's chair, so. Or the back of the chair. So, yeah, I understand that I am not a conventional sized person in that way from a height perspective. So I'm going to be inconvenient sometimes. And I've had it. I think I share with you that I'm going to one of these parks. Years ago with one of my kids, when they were little, I was too tall to go on the right.
It was just like I had to sit it out and I couldn't be with my kid. My kid had to go by themselves. And so those are the things that. But that's where I think this is more personal in terms of how the person feels when they're treated. Being taller than the average man is not a stigma in our society, in our culture. Right. It's more of a, all right, I'm taller, people give me deference and blah, blah, blah. They move out of the way when I'm walking down the street. That kind of stuff.
[00:34:51] Speaker A: I would imagine you didn't think to sue that amusement partner when they ride the.
[00:34:56] Speaker B: Yeah, too bad it would be 48 in the Internet. Maybe I should have like Made a bunch of selfie videos crying about it.
[00:35:02] Speaker A: And babe, man, you missed your shot.
[00:35:04] Speaker B: And I told my son to be like, hey, man, cry. And start acting like you're real upset that dad can't come with you, you know? Yeah, but, but. No but, but, but. That's what I'm saying is that I didn't feel even think about negative. I mean, you know, I was sad I couldn't go on a ride. Right? Or whatever. I don't like when my knees hit the back of a seat. But. But I don't. I. It's not something that shames me. Whereas I can appreciate. I mean, that's what I mean. I watched some of these videos of obese people, of how they feel when people. When they walk onto a plane and the way that the people look at them, like the stewardesses and all the employees, and I'm like, yeah, that's not right. You know, that sucks. And. And, you know, it's not for me to judge why a person weighs a certain amount. That's not my business. Right. So I think that's what I mean, we got to differentiate that. Yeah. My experience, it's probably not as negative to me, because what I am an outlier for being much taller than the average man, let's say, is not something that's seen as a stigma in society. I'm sure if.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: Well, no, let me say it this way.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Sometimes I've been the only black guy walking in the room. When all the eyes go on me, that one feels a little bit different.
You're like, damn, they don't want me.
[00:36:10] Speaker A: Oh, so that one is the one that you feel different.
[00:36:12] Speaker B: Yeah, that's.
[00:36:13] Speaker A: Well, see, I think that's different, too.
[00:36:15] Speaker B: That's not an awake thing where I'm not a young lady. You know, the whole thing, I get it where that's a little bit more sensitive when you're young lady, but I.
[00:36:24] Speaker A: Set it up like this intentionally because I do think that part of this does come from, like, part of her hurt in this instance comes from the fact that of all of the other crap she has to deal with on a regular basis, you know, and so the fact that, again, if you just look at it from a standpoint, and for the purposes of this conversation, like the people that argue that the ob, like obesity, like that, stuff like that, that's a genetic thing, you can argue that. You can say it's not. You can do it for the purposes of the conversation, the way I'm doing, I'm having this conversation that doesn't matter, because obviously with height, that is something that's primarily genetic. Some of it's nutrition and all that kind of stuff. You can underperform your potential genetics. But nonetheless, we all recognize that that is in large part driven by genetics. So even if being obese in that in a really extreme sense is being driven by genetics, it's, it would be comparable to being overly tall and not being like a tall person, conceivably, a super tall person, conceivably, would not be able to just get into any lift, you know. And so I think that the negative reaction and saying I'm going to sue these people comes in large part from the idea that this is, this was a straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak. This is like, I'm tired of people treating me like this because I'm overweight. Because ultimately, again, if you're an outlier in size, there are things that society is not going to be built and set up for you to be able to do, you know, and that's just the way it is. Like, it's, everything's not going to be something that everybody can do. And I mean, the, the, the, the, the, the, the obvious example that we see with this is that roller coasters, you got to be a certain height to do it, you know, and that's not a certain age, that's a certain height, you know. So if you're a person who's particularly short, there are roller coasters as an adult you can't even ride, you know, and so, and that's just, again, that's not a purpose of a lawsuit. And so to say, oh, well, you're, you're, you're discriminating against me in that sense, so that society treats people that are really overweight really bad. So much, I think is really what we're seeing here as far as what should we be doing about this? I don't know. I don't know. Like, there's only so much you can do to account for all of the outliers, because by definition, outliers are out, are so far outside of that norm that it's go. If you account for every single outlier in every single situation, you're going to break any kind of norm. There's no, there's going to be no norm, so to speak. So I think that while I sympathize, I think it's terrible that what actually happened in this instance, and I would, you know, ideally they would have a setting on Lyft, which I thought they do where you can get the big cars, you know, like for, like if you have six people, you know, you get a big car or something like that. And so I hope that accommodations can be made to prevent something like this in the future. But at the same time, I mean, it's as far as how society should handle this. It's just a difficult spot to the person who's an outlier in size, whether it be height or weight.
[00:39:09] Speaker B: No. Well, that's the thing. And it's a good point you make about the upcharge and Uber, because I could see somebody trying to make the argument of, well, you know, that's not fair, they got to pay more. Well, it's not fair. I got to pay more for an extra leg room in the plane. Right. Like that's to your point about being an outlier. Like, what's fair is not actually the issue.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: I think whether it's mean spirited or not. Like if this guy was the driver of the lifter, was mocking her and all sitting there with a Suburban, like, oh, whatever, I would look at this completely different. But if he's like, yo, I have a, you know, a sedan, a regular sedan, I don't know if this can work, that I sympathize with, but go ahead. I'm sorry.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: No. And you know, and it's a good point because he said it in the video, you see it, that he said he has a tire issue, he can't take on too much weight. And my thing is, you know, what if it was three people that were normal sized people like me and you, and he still looked and said, look, I can't bring this 5, 600 pounds on here. It's three of you. I can only bring one person I thought, you know, left. I bet you we wouldn't be talking about it, right? So I do think part of it is you're right. And that's why I don't want to make this about the young lady because I'm sure every day for her is not easy, that people look at her and gawk and tell her what to do and how she should live her life and what she should eat. So I appreciate that. She just, probably just like you're saying that she was at the end of a rope that day with how she, you know, maybe somebody people how she felt she'd been treated.
[00:40:26] Speaker A: But she has nothing but my sympathy, you know, but again, but I don't necessarily support her lawsuit. But I mean, you know, from a personal level, it's like, oh, man, I feel Bad for that person. That's. That's.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: But I also feel like it, like, because I see this with other things and sometimes I watch my 13 year old, I watch some time to Karen videos, you know, like, Karen's at the airport and stuff. We have fun. Because you look at, like. I feel like there's something other to be said here with this whole idea of this. And I'm pulling it up for people that aren't watching us on YouTube with the phone, right? Like this idea that it's your weapon and your shield all at the same time for a lot of Americans and people in our society. So it's almost like, well, if you don't do what I'm asking. And then they pull the phone up, right? And it's like, I'm gonna film you and I'm gonna make this a big deal. And da, da, da. And they get all their, you know, attention online and it's like the whole. Obviously the whole community online. And I just feel like this is where I feel like an old man that's grumpy and wants to yell at the kids to get off my lawn or shake my fist at the clouds. Because I feel like back in my old days, you know, people just had to take slights and deal with it, right? Like, seriously, like, James, look at when me and you were kids, man, like when I said walking into a room where you're the only brother in there and people looking at you funny and maybe even someone calls you the N word and ask you what you're doing in here. Guess what? You got to just learn how to deal with that and figure it out and go about your day, right? Like, you don't pull out your phone and like, oh, my God, this guy called me a name. And that's what I mean. Like, I feel like the whole society is on this. Like, oh, you slighted me. And now I gotta, like, stop everything and I'm gonna call a lawyer and I'm gonna do this. And then it's like, all right. Or I could just accept that this sucked and just move on and keep moving and not stop everything and grind my own gears. Because that's the thing. Like, in reality, this young lady is grinding her own situation to a halt and she's putting all this emotion into what happened to her and all that. And that Lyft driver gonna keep driving people around and her lawyer gonna get paid and everyone's gonna keep living their life.
[00:42:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: You see what I'm saying? And so that's kind of what I feel too, when I see this stuff.
[00:42:24] Speaker A: No, I agree with you. And that's where I think that the, the question. Because there are, there's times when you should make a stand for a principled reason, you know, and if so, if that's, if that's what she thinks she's doing, then fine. I mean, I think that the question of. Again, that's why I think the real question is how society should be dealing with this. When we're talking about outliers, are we not doing enough to account for the people in our society that are outlier in size? Are we not? Again, whether it's height or whether it's width and weight, are we not doing enough? I don't know the answer to that. If she's going to file a lawsuit and maybe there's other people and they can force change on society, then so be it. You know, like, I'm not against it necessarily, but I don't think that it's, it's some issue where it's like, this isn't Rosa Parks, you know, getting moved to the back of the bus because, you know, it's like, oh, okay, well, you can't sit in the front because you're a black person. Like, it's a different issue.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: So you want extreme.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: Well, I just. Because I don't want to minimize. Like, if she's being, if she's, if large people are being discriminated against and that's what's happening, then I would want litigation to bring it out, you know, and to force companies to change.
[00:43:37] Speaker B: No, you're right.
This doesn't necessarily strike me as that.
[00:43:41] Speaker A: You know, like, this doesn't strike me as that I could be wrong. If, again, if a thousand other people come out and say, yeah, yeah, this is what's happening to us. Even if I can fit in the car, they want people to be riding up in suburbans and they don't let me in, you know, then I'm like, okay, well, yeah, there's something here. We need to be investigating this. But if, you know, people of regular sized cars aren't letting large people in or saying, then I don't know if that's at the point where society needs to intervene and say, hey, this is unacceptable. And so I would like more information at this point, not necessarily on her situation, but on generally speaking, what's happening in these situations. Like, is this an issue that's recurrent where people with clearly enough size just have this discretion to just, no, no, I don't want that person in My car. Or is. Was this kind of an unfortunate but particular incident with a person in outlier in size? But generally speaking, people that are outlier in size are able to. To make their way around without incredible inconvenience. I mean, I think that's kind of what you need to know. And I guess I'm the lawyer, so I'm usually never one that's going to say it, but there is something to the idea of people suing everybody for everything. Kind of just making society, making every grind to a hold all the time. Like, there are times litigation is very important in terms of protecting people's rights, but it does. It can become overused to the point where it becomes less effective for the times that's really needed.
[00:44:57] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'll say this to finish up. I'm going to be watching closely because if she's successful, then I'm going to go sue an airline about my knees hitting the back of it.
[00:45:07] Speaker A: Go to that amusement park, man.
[00:45:08] Speaker B: I'm going to be all messed up. Be like, hey, they discriminated against me because I'm tall, can't fit in this mess seat, and they wouldn't let me on or something, you know?
[00:45:17] Speaker A: No, you got the amusement park, man. That's. You got them on the hook already, man.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: I was gonna make a joke about maybe.
[00:45:26] Speaker A: And it hurts your relationship with your son to this day.
[00:45:29] Speaker B: Okay. So I really can't make this joke. Cause you mentioned my son. I was gonna make a joke about wearing high heels one day and it being even taller. But then I was gonna say we're gonna have a DEI issue. You said my son. So now I'm a parent that's talking about being a drag queen, man. This is gonna go off the rails. So we need to end this show right now. Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:48] Speaker A: That's too much swimming around in your head right now.
[00:45:52] Speaker B: About to go right off the rails, bro. Yeah, yeah.
[00:45:54] Speaker A: So I think. Yeah, but we close this up. But we appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call. Like I said, subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what you think. Send it to a friend. Till next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:46:03] Speaker B: I'm tuned to everyone. Lineup.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: All right, we'll talk.
