Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: In this episode, we discuss some recent comments from Superman director James Gunn about how he expects his Superman movie that's coming out this week that's going to be offensive to some because it's about kindness.
Hello, welcome to the Call Like I See it podcast. I'm James Keats, and joining me today is a man whose insights come at you faster than a speeding bullet, and they hit harder than a locomotive.
Tunde. Ogon. Lana Tunde. You ready to show them how you crank that?
[00:00:44] Speaker B: Of course, man. I just, unfortunately, unlike the man of Steel, I do spit in the wind and.
[00:00:52] Speaker A: I shouldn't sleep.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: I. I pull on my own cape sometimes, you know.
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Unfortunately.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Unfortunately.
[00:00:59] Speaker A: All right. But before we get started, if you enjoy the show, I ask that you subscribe, like the show on YouTube or your podcast platform. Doing so really helps to show out. We're recording this on July 8, 2025, and there's a new Superman movie that's dropping this week, and the director of the movie, James Gunn, who that's done Guardians of the Galaxy and other movies in the past. So this is some new guy to the scene. He throws some interesting sentiments in a recent profile he did with the Times.
Specifically, he suggested that he anticipated that there will be people who find the new. His new Superman movie offensive because it's about kindness and about these people. He said, and I quote, screw them.
So, yeah, to that part of the audience, you know, he lets them know what he thinks about. Now, we've seen studios struggle to deal with online criticism about movies, you know, and movies that are like, not Superman itself, but like that, you know, like, we've seen it with Star Wars, Star wars movies or Star wars shows or some of the Marvel movies or Marvel shows. And, like, studios like Disney's had, like, really turned themselves in the notch trying to figure out how to either avoid this kind of criticism from people online or to appease these people and to change their shows or not do their shows or something like that because of this criticism from people online. But guns mindset seems to be a completely different way to kind of look at how to deal with this and just, you know, reflects maybe a. That he's comfortable with what he's doing and he's proud of what he's doing. So it's a really different approach than what we've seen from, like, Disney with that. So what are your thoughts on James Gunn coming out in advance? And that's the other thing. He's doing this in advance, coming out in advance and saying screw you to the. Would Be critics online and so forth about his new movie.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: I think he's learned from watching others. Right.
[00:02:45] Speaker A: Like you said, watching others fail even, you know.
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I mean. Star wars is a great.
Wanted to bring up, let me just put it that way, as a traditionally popular American franchise in terms of a fantasy story that in recent years has got unfortunately caught into the culture wars by those who don't like, I guess, you know, aliens that don't. They don't agree with, you know, whatever. So I think this is interesting, man, because the aliens.
[00:03:18] Speaker A: When aliens and such were not the right race.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Or didn't know there was that. Yeah.
[00:03:24] Speaker B: You know, let's say this way is a nice joke. Bring it to humans to bring bigotry to the stars. Right. Like make believe aliens.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: Yeah, we go to. So when we colonize Mars, we got to prepare for, you know, the bigotry and the classism and all that. But anyway, back on topic. The.
[00:03:41] Speaker A: The.
[00:03:42] Speaker B: And that's what I was going to say is it's interesting to see him go on offensive about this and it's almost like, almost contradictory. A guy's gone on the offense and being aggressive about being kind.
So yeah, you know, I, I think there's something to be said about that.
Defending kindness and empathy. And I think it's interesting that it's on the back of a superhero. A guy that actually when we have all this conversations about things like toxic masculinity and, and certain men trying to tell everyone else what it means to be a man, he. Here we have an icon in America for the last few generations of what a real man is, the man of Steel.
And being told by this director that no, the man of Steel that I'm creating here is going to be a kind person or Krypton or whatever he is.
So yeah, so that's my thoughts on it.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: This is interesting.
I remember when you first sent this to me, my first question in my own head was is he being overly sensitive? You know, like. Or is he being crazy like a fox, so to speak? You know, because, you know, on one hand, you know, like his job right now, his job when he was making the movie is to make a movie and to make something that thought audiences would respond to and that, you know, would take people on a journey that they would enjoy, you know, but his, his job now is actually to get people talking about the movie, you know, so this kind of like you can look at it and say, okay, is he out here, you know, kind of whining about the. These online critics, you know, these trolls or whatever you want to call them, toxic fandoms or whatever. Like, is he out here, you know, like, kind of going on the offensive because he's overly sensitive about this? Or is he kind of, like, going on the offensive because that's going to get other. Like, him doing that is going to allow him to take the narrative from them and, you know, actually start attacking them and get more people talking about it. Like, it seems to me that he's kind of. He's really doing a really smart play here in the sense that, like, we wouldn't be talking about this right now, you know, like, if he wasn't on the offensive, you know, doing. Maybe we talk about the movie, maybe not, but we wouldn't. Like, this was much more notable that he goes out and takes this approach, especially in contrast to the way, like, we saw the Star wars people change their third trilogy, change the storytelling of it midstream. You know, like, oh, they went one way and in the second of the third movie. Then they went another way in the third of the third movie. And it's like, because. And a lot of that related to them trying to appease fans that were mad about this or mad about that and other things. It's like, that's a lot to do. So this guy kind of made a movie and was like, we're gonna make the movie the way we wanna make it. And then comes out at the time when he's time to. When it's time to be promoting it. And instead of just kind of doing some bland stuff or whatever, comes out pointing fingers and saying screw you to a bunch of people. And it seems like he's crazy like a fox in that sense, because normally, like, okay, yeah, you probably shouldn't go telling the audience to screw them. But I think it does reflect an interesting kind of point in the culture that we are. Because the idea of being proud of doing something that is. That. That might not everybody might not like, is something we seem to. At least a lot of people have lost. You know, like, it. There are people who are. That will stand tall and do things they want to do. But a lot of times the people that are doing that these days are the people that are going to do mean stuff or the people that want to be exclusive, but the people who want to. To be nice to people or to want to be kind to people, a lot of times have taken a more of a backseat and kind of been shy and bashful about not wanting to be mean. To other people. And so it's interesting to see Gun out being like, okay, yeah, yeah, you know, we'll make this movie about kindness, and if you don't like it, then screw you, you know, because, you know, I'm. I'm good with that. I don't need you. You know, like, I'm doing the way I want to do it. And so that's. That was refreshing to kind of take a mindset of, hey, we can do something better. We can be about our better selves and take that with the aggressive tone as opposed to. Again, the only thing we hear on the aggressive tone now is people wanting to do mean stuff to people. It's kind of the people that have been more vocal and more and aggressive in what they're doing.
[00:07:52] Speaker B: So you're saying the people that complained about cancel culture maybe a decade or so ago are now aggressively canceling everyone else?
[00:07:59] Speaker A: That's of course, but their problem wasn't the canceling. Their problem was what was being canceled.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Exactly. So. Well, that's what's really playing out now. We're seeing that here, kind of the back half of this journey that we're in for the last decade or so. But I want to say this. I think both can be true. I think he can genuinely feel this way and also be smart enough to understand that he's kind of disrupting a narrative in the media and all that and kind of like you're saying, going and kind of outright attacking people that don't think kindness is something that should be, you know, celebrated or kind of openly. Openly practiced, let's put it that way. So, because I want to read a quote from one of the articles I know we're citing. He says, quote, superman is the story of America, an immigrant that came from other places and populated the country. But for me, it is mostly a story that says basic human kindness is a value and is something we have lost.
So I do feel like.
And I've seen other quotes from him that. That mirror that sentiment. So he seems like a guy that genuinely. He's. Like you said, he's made a lot of popular movies that have done very well. And in this era, he's looking around at his world like you and I are, that we produce this show. Right. And he's saying, well, I have something to say about what I. What's going on in the culture now.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: And I'm gonna use my platform and my ability to make great movies and a movie about an. Actually an American superhero. But let me remind everybody, he's not actually American.
He came from another planet. Like, that's why the other. I'm not going to bother. You know, I'll save the audience for me quoting him a million times. But there's other areas where I read where he. He refers to Superman specifically as an immigrant from. From Krypton.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:41] Speaker B: And that he got here and he bettered America, he better the world, all that kind of stuff. So it's interesting. I think it's like.
And you're very good at this idea of curation in our society and culture. And I think he's an example of a guy that's trying to get back the narrative as one of our cultural curators, let's say, as someone who makes movies. So I found that, you know, I just find it very interesting at this point. And the Star wars thing is, it hits home to me because I'm a Star wars fan, but also because it's nice to see him take this aggressive stance as a content creator, as someone creating content, because I feel like what Star wars did, unfortunately, they took this backpedaling and they started allowing the fans to tell them kind of how they're going to make things.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:29] Speaker B: And it's amazing. The recent show Andor is very popular. And that seems to be one where the studio finally said, no, we're going to keep moving, making this stuff the way we make it. And I feel like this guy is a good example because we've seen this is kind of the culture now. It's happened in politics. Right. The politicians just react to what the people want and no one's leading us. And I feel like this is an example of someone in the arts shaking us as Americans and saying, hey, you know, we used to be about this stuff, like helping people and being proud of that and going around the world and propping up democracies and doing all these things. And so, you know.
[00:11:06] Speaker A: Yeah. Where I wanted to get in terms of the, you know, like the super. The America had historically been, you know, and we're saying, like over the last hundred years or so, a superpower in the world and the values of the nation reflected one of using power by and large. Again, this is not going to be. I'm not painting with a broad brush for the purposes of making a point of using power not only for it, it did for its own benefit, but also to help others, you know, in ways that weren't directly in its benefit. Like you mentioned propping up democracies.
So the. The idea of having more power and not just using that Power to step on people, but also to try to help people was something that existed in American culture. And Superman reflected that. And so, you know, the, the idea that Gunn, what the gun is really pointing at here is that Superman is someone of infinite power, basically. And he has a movie about him using that power not just to, to step on people that are weaker than him or, hey, I'm gonna, I'm powerful, so let me find somebody who's weaker than me in society and let me kick them around, but using that power to help people, you know, and so, and he, he thinks that, that this is going to be subversive to a chunk of Americans and again, it's going out against that. So what do you think?
Or do you think that having a Superman who, despite his immense power, is kind to others and tries to help them, as opposed to being insulting towards people that he thinks are beneath him or mean to them, is a message that Americans can even be receptive to still?
[00:12:35] Speaker B: I don't know, man.
I think, I mean. Cause you ask, can Americans be receptive to it? I mean, we've got to the point where, you know, there's people in our country and our culture that think that Jesus is too woke for Christianity.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: No, not people, man. There are Christians. People who are not just random people, but people who claim to follow that dude.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:59] Speaker A: So.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: And you realize that?
[00:13:00] Speaker A: No.
[00:13:01] Speaker B: Okay, so you and I grew up, you know, born in the late 70s, so we're kind of growing up in the 80s and 90s, going to school and all that.
And we were taught at a time that we grew up at a time where we still had people that were teaching us that fascism was bad, democracy was good, one man kind of leadership styles.
[00:13:23] Speaker A: Power corrupts absolutely.
[00:13:24] Speaker B: Yeah. All that stuff and following kind of one man type of strongman type of stuff was bad. And then also from a religious standpoint, right. Jesus was out there helping the poor and the meek and, and turn the other cheek. All these kind of things that we learned, you know, don't, don't, you know, the whole thing about throwing stones and the glass house, all that stuff was kind of the spirit that came from the religious side. But there's another side of, just like we're seeing there's another side of how to do politics in the country, there's another side on how to do religion. And there is a part of this Jesus story where he turned over tables and where he smote his enemies and all that kind of stuff, right? So I do think this, this is why it's an interesting Superman, this film and this director, like an inflection point of this and kind of having this conversation, because in a way, he's an example that we all make choices we can all look at. And this is a great point you make. Superman is a great fictional character for most of us, especially us men who want to fantasize about what would it be like to fly around and shoot laser beams out of your eyes and be able to dominate people.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: And some people with that kind of power.
[00:14:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: Yeah. What would you do with it? Right. And so we're seeing that some people in our society, in our culture today that we can see on TV and they're part of our entertainment and our political world and all that.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: They.
[00:14:42] Speaker B: If they had all that power, they would use it a certain way.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: They would use it to kick other people, kick up, find immigrants and kick them down, you know, or whatever.
People that they thought were in a marginal position relative to them and. And. And. And do dirty stuff.
[00:14:57] Speaker B: Create an alligator Alcatraz, Right?
[00:14:59] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:00] Speaker B: Or do something like that. So. So. Meaning. Yeah, going out of your way to be a little bit extra cruel when we already have regular prisons that can lock people up. But no, I want to now get up, see them chased by an alligator.
[00:15:10] Speaker A: And so.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Or those people could say, well, you know, we would like to have the ability to bring people into the country who aren't criminals. And maybe we got to fix the system.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: But.
[00:15:22] Speaker B: But by bringing them in, they help us out. It's a goodwill, you know, to every. They're sending money back to their countries, you know, kind of keeps everybody, you know, America as the center of attention for the world and keeps us on top. So let's not do an alligator Alcatraz. Let's just fix the immigration system. So it's, you know, people. We all have choices in how to look at these things. And again, as a director, he's telling us his choice is going to be to choose to paint Superman as someone who uses his power in a way that. That most. I think most of us that grew up in the time you and I grew up in would assume that would be a good way to use it.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: And that's consistent with the Superman character. Like, I remember this from being younger and seeing things like this, but you shared it with me just this week when we were getting ready for this. Just like Superman used to fight the Klan, you know, like Superman used to fight Nazis. Like, so Superman was oftentimes against these. Against the types of people, these fascist types of people that Wanted to gain power and use that to attack marginalized people or marginalized groups. Superman would fight against those kinds of people historically. So it's not a departure that Superman may look at his extreme power now and use it to exert kindness. And again, I think the emphasis is. Again, it's not that Superman. Superman's a fictional character, so he can be, you know, whatever the a director or writer makes him be. And the United States, you know, like, it wasn't that United States. It never has been. United States is all good or all this or all that. It's. It's that the United States. There were. There was a value in. Amongst many in the country that strove to be better. You know, it wasn't that. It always was. You could find plenty of fault in anything any large institution has done. But the question is whether you strive to be better or whether you actually strive to be meaner. Strive to be the one that. Do you want to. Do you want to make people afraid and then kick them when they're down at that, you know? Or do you want to say, okay, hey, there's a certain way we're going to do these things, and you have to abide by that. And if you don't, then we got something for you. But if you do, then, hey, we want you to. We want you to flourish. And so the idea of Superman in that context, like, yeah, I would think that, like, again, just he's gun is out there saying, you know, hey, these people are going to find this offensive. I would imagine that if you had Superman versus Nazis now, or Superman versus the Klan now, people would be offended, or there would be a segment of society would be offended by that, because they would be. They'd say it's towards. Those groups now in certain areas of society are not.
You know, we are all on the same page as far as.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: Well, here's the reality, James. The reality is that somehow the bigots and the Nazis became the victims.
[00:18:00] Speaker A: This is.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: This is what happened. I mean, I'm serious, man.
[00:18:02] Speaker A: Well, they always been the victims in their own.
[00:18:05] Speaker B: I mean, but. But that's my point, right? It's like. It's like they're. I mean, they're sissies and they're weirdos. All the stuff that people say about them is true. I mean, first of all, let's talk about. I was thinking about this in your hometown area, the Cincinnati, Lincoln Heights area. Earlier this year, Nazis went into a black neighborhood in this part of Ohio. And not being invited, they just decided we have the right to just go to this other part of town where these people are and harass them. So they start swastikas.
[00:18:39] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:18:40] Speaker B: They got flags with swastikazana. They got long guns, all that.
And they're going into a black neighborhood. Clearly that's an aggressive move for no reason at all. And I wonder what would happen if a bunch of blacks went into a white neighborhood and just started with guns. Just started. Started. Started walking around and harassing people. So the long story short, I'm saying is that.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: Well, but to tie your point up, though, and then when the neighborhood responded and started that's showing up, then they were the ones calling the cops like, hey, protect us. We need protection. Yada, yada, yada.
[00:19:10] Speaker B: So. So hold on. Flush that out for the audience real quick. When the blacks in the neighborhood went and started asking, what the hell you guys doing? And start saying, get the hell out of here.
[00:19:17] Speaker A: Protesting them.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Yeah, correct. Then the Nazis call the police and they get a police escort out of town. And that's my point. Like. Like, these guys are so tough until someone confronts them. And it's the same all the time. The bullies, you know, you punch them in the nose and they usually fall apart. So that's what I'm getting at is, you know, it was. It was. It was, you know, people on. On Twitter, X that were crying about, you know, not being able to use the N word or, you know, make fun of Jews and they're victims, and then, you know, they get their freedom of speech and then we see what happens. That the platform is a cesspool of bigotry and hate. So, you know, if this is what people want in their society, this is what they're going to get.
And I agree with you. Like I'm reading here, one of the articles. Captain America was famously punched Adolf Hitler on his first issue, but it was Superman who was the first to take on the Nazi. I didn't know that the first issue of Captain America comic book, he was punching Hitler in the face. But you're right, if that came out today, if Disney, who owns Marvel today, did a specific thing where Captain America fought against the Nazis, I bet you there would be a whole backlash against it. And they would say, oh, you're rewriting history and the Nazis weren't so bad and all this stuff. And, you know, I mean, here we are.
[00:20:35] Speaker A: Go ahead, go ahead.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: No, I was just gonna say we're having this open conversation as a nation again as to, you know, what does it mean to be nice to people or not, right? And I think we're gonna get to the point at some point where people are gonna do political correctness again and say, oh, this is too much. Let's just not. Let's just not call people names anymore.
[00:20:52] Speaker A: Well, it is. You know, those things happened in response to other things. And it's like, if you're in a society with people, then generally speaking, a certain level of social behavior is required. And so we have. And this is probably a natural kind of ebb and flow of things where people are like, hey, I want to be. People are saying, I want to be antisocial. You know, you want to. You know, you want to be yourself. I want to tell you you can't be yourself, and I want to ridicule you and stuff. And I want to do all that. And that's not social behavior. That's antisocial behavior. I want to call you names, you know, I want to. I want to use, you know, or go beyond antisocial behavior. I want to use the power of the government to do mean stuff to you just because I can. And so every now and again, those sentiments. There are people that are like that. It may be a small percentage, but there are people who are like that. You know, that's just who they are. And there are people who are kind people, and then there's probably people. They can go either way, depending on what. Where the currents are going in, you know, in which way in society or what behaviors are being rewarded in society. And so it's really a situation where right now we're having that conversation again. We had that conversation, you know, in the past, in six forties, fifties, sixties, seventies. And society decided, hey, you know, we gotta. Let's have a certain level of decorum when, you know, when we do these public things that everybody's gonna kind of abide by, you know, and that's a way for everybody to kind of just be social. And, you know, human beings are social creatures, you know, so can we. Can we operate in groups or not? You know, and some of that requires people to not necessarily be able to do everything they want to do or be as mean to everybody as they want to at a time. So it's just. It's an interesting moment in society. I think Gun recognizes that. I think, you know, to kind of tie this together. And. And so this is kind of his. He's putting out a kind of a mission statement or a, hey, I want to curate something that will show people a certain way of using power.
And he's not just doing that. Then he's gonna get out and talk about it and tell everybody, hey, this is what I'm doing, you know, so that you don't. Just in case it didn't go over your head, I want you to know this is just specifically what I'm doing. The way you wield power, there are choices and how power can be welled. It doesn't have to be where if you have power, that means you got to step on people that are weaker than you. You could also have power and hold your own, but also bring up people as well. And so he's kind of throwing out that mission statement. It's interesting to see, and I'm interested to see how the public will receive it. But I'm glad that at minimum, if he's going to do something like this, it's not some kind of meek thing, because being nice does not have to be soft and meek. Being nice can be okay. This is my general approach. And then if you show that you aren't deserving of that, then I got the heat for you too, you know, like that. That's a way of being kind as well. You know, you give people a chance. And most people, if you, if you hold out that hand, will take your hand and be okay. The ones that don't, they can get the fist, you know, and that's fine, you know. So to me, you know, it's interesting that he is trying to meet this moment and he talks about, like I said, we'll have the piece in the show notes, but he talks specifically about, you know, the online cultures and things like that and how a lot of that stuff, those are changing the incentives in terms of whether it pays to be kind in the currency of the online world or whether it pays to be mean in the currency of the online world. So he's taking his shot. He's putting something out there, and we'll see how the public will receive it.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: I think that our experiences online and the performance of big tech stocks can tell us which one is working for, which one is playing out.
[00:24:19] Speaker A: But one taps to some basal human, you know, emotions and some of the like. Again, if you want to motivate people, fear is, you know, making them afraid of something, or if you want to get their attention, that's just how we're wired. Because survival instinct, you know, if something is going to, quote, unquote, come after me, if wokeness is going to come after me, then I'm going to pay more attention to that because it's like, hey, I got to make sure that wokeness in the bush over there doesn't jump out and try to eat me.
[00:24:47] Speaker B: It's pretty. That wokeness got some big claws, though. So that should be.
Now I'll say this joke I know we're going to go is because as you were talking, I chuckled because you're like, yeah, so from the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s, when we were trying to work this out, I'm thinking, man, that's a long time, dude. I'm pretty exhausted.
I guess I think we're just going to have to be used to this.
[00:25:11] Speaker A: Well, I mean, it's a constant.
[00:25:12] Speaker B: That's why I don't want to live for 500 years, bro. Because.
[00:25:15] Speaker A: Well, no, but what I'm saying is that it's a constantly evolving thing. And so it wasn't just, it wasn't like there was a period of upheaval, then there was a period of calm. It's, it's constantly evolved. But there were certain kind of social norms that got adopted by the majority of a society, and then those norms are being challenged now, you know, so that's kind of the, the, the ebb and the flow of that. So, yeah, but yeah, so I think we can wrap this up from there. We appreciate everyone for joining us on this episode of Call. Like I see it. Subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: It, tell us what you think, send.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: It to a friend. Until next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:25:48] Speaker B: I'm tuned to a one liner. All right.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: And we'll have a call out coming out this week, so check that out also, and we'll talk soon.
