Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hello.
Welcome to the Call It Like I See it podcast. I'm James Keys, and in this episode of Call It Like I See it, we're going to discuss how the reality of hidden history and the psychic appeal of a hidden history that might put you, yourself or people that you identify with in a better light, may give context or more context to what we're seeing, not just in Kyrie Irving's promotion of a film that was based in significant part on anti Semitism, but the reaction to that as well. You know, where we have seen whether, I mean, you know, at your own risk, you know, looking at social media, we've seen people express not necessarily support, but say, oh, but it's true, or yada, yada, yada, things like that. And, you know, which flatly, I'll say at the beginning is a bit ridiculous, you know, a bit much. But we've seen it. And we'll also discuss how this reveals the level of urgency that we need to have in pushing back against this kind of stuff.
And later on, we're going to consider the extent to which, as we age, our idea of ourselves, how we view ourselves and what are things that we, you know, how we view ourselves can become increasingly divorced from the person we've become, which can evolve as we get older.
Joining me today is a man who knows no matter how crazy things may look, this is still politics as usual. Tunde. Ogonlana Tunde. So does this mean you're still keeping reasonable doubt?
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Of course. You just can't knock the hustle, man. You know that. All right. All right.
[00:01:54] Speaker A: There we go. Now, we're recording this on November 7, 2022, and we wanted to follow up our discussion from last week where we discussed the importance of shouting down hateful rhetoric, intolerant rhetoric in our public square.
We're going to do that, follow that up with a conversation that looks more at where some of the antisemitism that's being put out in the public sphere right now by someone like Kyrie Irving, or last week we focused more on Kanye west, now known as. Yeah, where that stuff's coming from. Like, how do we get to a place where a black man in America is promoting content that features quotes from Adolf Hitler to support some retelling of history.
So, Tunde, what. What is your reaction to seeing some of the more incredible things that we've seen reported as being in the documentary? I have not watched the documentary. I don't want to support it. I've read about it, but I don't want to support it. Financially.
But, you know, things that are in the documentary that people are backing, supporting, finding to be true, and these things are, like I said, very incredible in many cases, on flatly, it would appear. And why do you think this type of thing for so many people isn't easily rejected out of hand?
[00:03:09] Speaker B: No, great question, man. And it's funny, I was all ready to answer you, and then it just messed me up when I heard you say that we're at an era where black Americans are proudly quoting Adolf Hitler. And it just like you saying that just threw me out because I'm like, yeah, I guess maybe I didn't think of it in that way until I heard you saying it.
I mean, obviously I thought about it before, but it just.
[00:03:36] Speaker A: That particular kind.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Because, I mean, it's funny, when we talked offline, Hitler said, yeah, no, but, but it, like, just for the audience to hear when we were talking offline and preparing for this, I remember you, you said to me, you know, these guys never hear about the story of Jesse Owens, right? Like, like just one of the simplest stories that we all, most Americans have heard of at this point as to the importance of the symbolism of Jesse Owens winning gold medals in the 1936 Berlin Olympics.
[00:04:06] Speaker A: And this freak was not a fan. Just to sum up the, sum it up, he wasn't a fan of black Americans.
[00:04:12] Speaker B: It's just, it's just, that's why it's just interesting, right? Like, we're in this era of just total bs. I mean, it's just like, you know, and it's just, just like Kellyanne Conway Famous said, we have alternative facts. I guess that's what Kyrie and Kanye and these guys would say. And the guys who made that documentary, I mean, seriously, they have alternative facts and they're just, you know, just like the flat Earthers, right, that just facts don't matter. So, you know, let's get back to answering you. I mean, look, where do I go from there, right?
And so to kind of start first on the, on the question at hand in terms of, like you said, this, this documentary, I don't even get stuck on something specific like that. But, but what does it represent? It represent things that you and I know of very well because they're things that have been stirring in the black community for a long time and probably since before we were born. And I think, like, a lot.
[00:05:11] Speaker A: Since before we were born.
[00:05:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, like a lot of cultures and then subcultures, right? Because America is interesting because we have a wide, diverse country, a Lot of different types of groups and tribes. But then all of those groups have their own sub cultures within them. Some are fringy, some are mainstream, so on and so forth. So, for example, there's some Southern Americans that have the kind of diluted history. And I don't mean that in a pejorative way. I just mean it's not factual that somehow the Civil War was the quote unquote, nor war of Northern aggression, or that it was only about states rights and nothing else, so on and so forth. And that's what I would say. That's a subculture of maybe the greater American culture. And there's.
[00:06:00] Speaker A: And just to help frame that point, like. And that's in direct contrast to, like, the writings of the Southerner Southern leaders at the time of the Civil War.
[00:06:10] Speaker B: No, that's a great point.
[00:06:11] Speaker A: That's set aside and say, oh, well, you know, either they don't know or don't acknowledge what was written, or they just skip over it and say, well, no, this is what. This is our alternative.
[00:06:21] Speaker B: Well, I think similar to where we're about to go for black Americans, and I think for some Southern white Americans, it became a convenient narrative to avoid the truth. Right. There was a need emotionally for a lot of Southerners to kind of reject that truth.
And just like the Germans wanted to reject the truth of their humiliation after World War I, and that gave rise to the Nazis in the 30s.
[00:06:50] Speaker A: Certain stories basically have. And this is the term I use was psychic appeal. Like, they have an appeal that goes beyond just, okay, well, here's what happened. But it's like, no. Believing this will make me feel good, you know, about something either I might not feel good about, or I might have no feeling about, but it'll actually bring happiness to my heart if I believe this.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And some sort of pride, you know, I just want to give those. Those other examples as this is a human thing. This is not about picking on one group or another. So we're gonna start talking about, especially for non African Americans that may not be privy to this type of subculture, where all this stuff comes from. Because I think there is a bit of a cognitive dissonance, I think, for a lot of people out there who are seeing for the first time, at least in their lives, black Americans attacking other groups.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: And we've seen this percolate a little bit. Remember a couple years ago, there was an NFL player, DeSean Jackson, who had some sense of Stu, and we even mentioned it in a show. So we've seen this pop up I mean, but there have been prominent examples. Like I said, you mentioned that how this predates our birth. Like, I look to, for example, like, the Nation of Islam, you know, had messages for, you know, well before when we was born that, you know, on one hand we're endeavoring to be empowering for black people, but on the other hand, we're trying to put other people down, you know, like. And whether that would be just the mainstream America in general, but it also singled out other groups as well, and Jews being one of them as well. And so I think that it's been there, it's been around. And I think there's a couple of issues here that I'll point out. One is there is, I would think, a greater or at least a pronounced susceptibility when you look at black Americans for things like this. As far as being told things, hey, this is some history that you didn't know about because it's so well documented in modern times. Not as much, if you go back 20 years or 50 years or whatever, but from a mainstream standpoint is definitely not stuff that's well known. But it is. There's so many instances of things that were actually kept from or hidden from or things that black Americans weren't taught or that, you know, again, were. Were taken out of public view. So my whole life I've learned about things. Oh, well, here's stuff you won't see in the history books, but here's something that happened, you know, and, you know, I look at that, like, whether it be my experiences or whether I have aunt that's a history professor or, you know, just. Or going to a historically black university, like. And some of these things sound unbelievable. Like, if you learn about the syphilis experiments that happened, you know, go back 50 years or whatever, and. Or maybe a little more than that, but. And where they are infecting black Americans with syphilis on purpose and trying to study what happens and so forth, that sounds like a conspiracy theory that would be unbelievable, you know, to most reasonable people. And it's like, oh, wow, could you believe something like that? But. But that's actually true. And so being exposed or hearing things that sound somewhat unbelievable and then finding out that actually no, this is true is something that's almost married to the black experience. So that doesn't excuse anything, but it does explain, in a sense, how some of these things. Now, granted, some people are drawn to the fringe, as you and I have talked about. Some people are drawn to the fringe anyway, but there's a Lot of people that aren't necessarily drawn to the fringe. But I would say it creates more difficulty sometimes in dealing with when you hear things that might be. Sound a little outlandish, particularly in terms of, oh, well, this was kept from black people, or this was. You know, black people were made to forget about this or whatever, because in American history, there's a lot of that. And the other thing, just briefly, I'll mention, is how this is interwoven with religion. And that's always. When you're talking about retelling of history through a religious lens, in my mind, that always sets off a red flag. Like, we're over here litigating 3000 years ago what happened based on the Bible and. Or the Quran. Or I was like, yo, come on, man. Like, we can't get into, like, that. That's. That. That's wild, you know, to me. So I. That, to me, is another one of the red flags that I see here. That. But, you know, I want to take it back to you, but, you know, those are the two that I want to mention up front.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I mean, I'll save the religious part.
And I want to just jump back to what you said about the unbelievable nature of some of these historical facts. I mean, you're talking there about the syphilis experiments with something called the Tuskegee Experiment. And the good thing is that these are all well documented in history, so someone can just look them up. It's just they.
[00:11:20] Speaker A: Well, they are. Now, that's the thing. Like, before you had access to the Internet and before all this other. Oh, go. Go ahead, go ahead.
[00:11:26] Speaker B: And that's what I'm just saying that I'm just talking about now. I'm just talking about that anyone listening to us can go look these things up and see that they happen and then can remind themselves, okay, how come I didn't learn about this in just regular school? Right? And like you said, because of the culture that we're in, we were exposed to this more obviously than people that aren't in the black American culture. So the interesting thing that I realized as I'm preparing for today is I'm not going to say this is unique to America, because I haven't lived in every single other country, but I do think probably more so than any other large nations, we really do have this bifurcated and these real reality bubbles of our own country, meaning between our own countrymen. So to your point, because I thought about it, Tuskegee experiment, sanctioned by the US Government, experimenting, literally experimenting injecting American citizens with a virus and not telling them. You have things like coincidence, which went.
[00:12:22] Speaker A: For 40 years, 1932 to 1972.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: And then you have COINTELPRO, which again, one can look up for the details, but that was the FBI's real aggressive attempts to take down Martin Luther King. I mean, to the point where they count intelligence attempts. Yeah, that's where the name comes from. To the point where they wrote him a letter telling him he should just commit suicide because that's how they were going to get him.
Then you've got things like redlining, where it was just well known that the banking industry and others legally could exclude. Exclude blacks from mortgages. Blacks were excluded from the Fair Housing act when it was first enacted. Blacks were excluded from. Oh, sorry, the Fair Housing act actually fixed it. Let me correct that of 1968. Blacks were excluded from FHA loans for mortgages, so they weren't able to get credit and buy homes as easily as whites. You had then segregation as well, which meant blacks weren't allowed to live in certain neighborhoods and all that, weren't allowed to work at certain jobs. Remember Woodrow Wilson after Reconstruction made the federal government segregated, so blacks could no longer become federal employees from the 19 teens until 1965, basically in the Civil Rights Act. So, again, these are all things that historically we know about, Right? Yeah.
[00:13:43] Speaker A: And this is just a sampling, by the way.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: And this is. Yeah, I mean, I could go on for an hour, but. And two things I want to say real quick before I go there. Number one, if you think about the idea of kind of the modern, in the last few years, discussion of something like the deep state, that we should all be so scared of this big bad threatening intelligence agencies and governments that are against the people. It's interesting when that rhetoric started in the last 10 years. I think a lot of black Americans are like, where you guys been?
[00:14:14] Speaker A: You guys aren't the target of this.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. This is like.
[00:14:17] Speaker A: You guys are the deep state.
[00:14:18] Speaker B: This is what black Americans have been feeling all the time. The actual country, the government was set up. This is all point. Point of systemic racism. The system was set up to. To counter one's involvement in society. I mean, that's. That's what I mean. People don't understand language and words. The civil rights movement. Think about it. Civil rights are the rights of a civilian within a society.
[00:14:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: So that was the whole.
[00:14:42] Speaker A: Needed the whole movement to get some of those correct.
[00:14:44] Speaker B: And that's what I mean is that I'm not sitting here angry about anything What I'm saying is that I recognize there's a whole group of Americans that never even got wind of this history because it was withheld from them. I'm talking about white Americans and this information was withheld from them. So of course, when we talk about this stuff, it sounds crazy.
[00:15:01] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, that does two things, you know, because, yeah, it. On one hand, you can see how that would condition people who are aware of that stuff to be like, oh, really? That's what, that's what's happened. Like you might, you believe more things, you know, if you don't have a. Your BS detector has to be really good because you've heard a lot of things that sound unbelievable, that actually if you look it up are true. And the other thing, like you said it, when you see the, when these things come out, actually the reason why people don't know about this stuff, we are seeing that right now. You see the reaction to crt, critical Race theory, which wasn't taught in school, in primary schools. Well, there's been a whole thing now to make sure it's not taught in elementary school and stuff like that. It's like, well, so hold on. We're going to have a whole thing about doing something that we're not doing anyway right now. But that type of hostility, hostility to any type of telling of, remember it was always framed in anything from, from the, the push against any kind of critical race theory teaching or any type of, you know, race teaching or whatever, was always framed in the context of anything that would make anyone feel guilty. Anyone there, meaning white people, you know, like, so if it would make white people feel guilty or it could make a white person feel guilty, then we can't teach it. So a lot of this stuff that we're mentioning, of course it under that same context, under that same construction, has not been taught to people. So. And again, it's not.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Let me say something.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Well, let me say this point though. It's not to excuse where we are today because we're going to get into the dangers of that and why that is bad and wrong in any context and hopefully be able to give some thoughts on how to, how people can improve their BS detectors, you know, in terms of this type of stuff, but it really is to really give context to how you can see people who aren't. Now, Kyrie Irving has been out here talking flat earth, so maybe he's just susceptible to alternative facts, so to speak. Like he just, he wants to think something that is out there. But many people who don't think things that are out there in the black community have been exposed to both true and false things that sound unbelievable. And so that's out there. And I think it should be acknowledged as a part of this conversation. And then we'll get into, like I said later on, how or why it's so important to push back against this from both inside and outside the black community. And. But when you do it from outside the black community, it's good to have this kind of context and then also how harmful it can be.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, what I was gonna say is it's a shame if anybody can hear something historical and personally feel guilty about it. I mean, we can't control that. Right.
But I think that is just an excuse. I just think there's a lack of maturity to want to discuss and also a lack of respect. Let's be honest, right? There's still enough Americans in this country that don't respect just the journey of their fellow Americans. I mean, let's just.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: I don't know, man.
[00:17:44] Speaker B: I would disagree. Simple as that.
[00:17:46] Speaker A: For this reason, let me say that I'll let you back in. But I would disagree with you on that. In this context, if your identity and pride is at all tied up in the idea of white supremacy or white being right, then hearing that, oh, a white person did something bad, or that this segregation was bad or the secession at the Civil War was bad, that does actually go at your self id, your chosen self identity yourself. Your product is attacked.
It's messed up, but it's not like it does. If you think about it from that context, it makes sense.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: Well, let me. Let me go. Because that, to me is the same as a lack of respect. Whatever the source of lack of respect is, it's a lack of respect that other groups that have been sharing this country along with you as long as you've been here and your group's been here just don't have. That's why it's interesting that we sit here and call it black history and all that. It's really American history. Yeah, this is all, like I was saying that, you know, you know, most Americans don't know that one fifth of the revolutionary army were free black men. You know, again, what would that provide more unity for this country to have that history better told? I think so. I don't think it's embarrassing. And back to specifically kind of what we started with as you introduced the story about Kyrie Irving and the documentary. I mean, I think this is where the transition to that Portion of the conversation is when you know that there's been a lot of history of, you know, let's say, quote, unquote, your ancestors. Right. For African Americans, you know, unfortunately, with the history of slavery, may not be able to trace directly where they come from in terms of the specific tribe in Africa and all that, but every African American knows that there's roots from the African continent. And unfortunately, due to the last couple hundred years of recent history, a lot of that, a lot of the truth about the African continent has been distorted and diluted as well. I mean, if you go from just the images you see from King Tut's tomb and then how King Tut is depicted in Hollywood and in the media, it's two totally different looking experiences to me. So we could go from Africa's role in ancient history all the way to modern history. If you talk about the influence that the African continent had on the rise of Europe out of the Dark Ages to the Middle Ages and the Renaissance, you know, from the Moors, you know, then prior to that, you've got the Library of Alexandria, you know, and the Greeks. And like you said about listening to what people say, the Greeks cited the Ethiopians and the Egyptians specifically as the source of pretty much most of their knowledge.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:20:25] Speaker B: If you look at how we learn it. Yeah, Plato, Herodotus, these type of.
But then we don't get taught that. Right. And I think a lot of that was unfortunately a conscious decision during the Victorian age, up until the 20, you know, through the early 20th century, to just withhold that type of information. Because I think a lot of people also thought that was unbelievable, that actually Africans could, Could, could create, you know, you know, circumnavigate places and read the stars and all that kind of stuff. And so we're dealing with that aftermath. And so when you have, going back to what we said earlier, the human need to feel acknowledged and to feel that you are a part of something greater then we have.
[00:21:11] Speaker A: And to have pride in something. Yeah, yeah.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: And I have pride in something. We have the room, let's put it this way, we have room for a lot of African Americans to be. Or some, I don't want to say it's a certain percentage, but some people in the African American group now to be led down rabbit holes, which may also not be factual on their faces, because certain people already are saying, well, if all this other information was withheld from me, then how can this, you know, this might be true as well. Or how can you say this is fake? And so I'll give you an example. There's a quote from the documentary that says, you know, it says that the. Basically they mentioned that the Catholic Church, the Arabs and East Africans and Islamic slave traders were all part of the slave trade. And then it says, quote, the Jewish slave ships that brought our West African Negro or Bantu ancestors to slave ports owned by Jews. And so my point is, is that it's just interesting to me that they're acknowledging that other groups like the Catholic Church and like Arabs and Islamic slave traders were all part of this, but they still choose to kind of sit on and single out the Jews. Like somehow they were worse about, you know, because they were involved. So I think just interesting to me that they.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Well, in that case, anybody engaging in commerce at that time, basically, if they could, they were engaging and that was.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and that's my point. But clearly there's. That's where the anti Semitic Ben comes into. It was. Okay, well, you're acknowledging everyone's. But for some reason you still don't like that the Jews were a part of it.
[00:22:37] Speaker A: Well, that's why it's hard.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: But you're not picking out on these.
[00:22:40] Speaker A: That's why it's hard to me to ignore the religious piece of it. Because I mean, like we've seen from both Christian circles, not all Christians, not all, you know, and from Islamic circles, not all Muslims. But there is kind of a, you know, they like to get shots in at Jewish people, you know, like. And so we've seen that whether it be in retellings of history or, you know, as far as this creation of these secret societies and so forth, they're an easy target, have been throughout history because they've generally been a religious minority. But.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Well, I think I want to say.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: One thing though before we get too far from this and this will come up again. But the piece on, you know, as far as pride and identity and so forth, I think I just want to draw this connection, you know, how I mentioned that how we see other groups, you know, like we observe them, how, when they. How it can work very to their detriment and to society's detriment when some of these toxic things, some of these things that are built on hate or oppression or whatever are incorporated. They incorporate those into their self identity, into their pride in terms. And so that's what we're trying to do here to push back on to. We want to stop black folks from doing that, Black Americans from doing that. Basically, like, you don't need to pull this toxic Stuff, and there is plenty of history. A lot of it's been hidden, but there's plenty of history. If you want to feel good about who you are, where you come from and all that stuff, there's plenty of history to get there. You know, it's just a matter of finding the right stuff and so forth, because that's what we don't want. The one of the things, for example, for me, like just learning. I learned this more as an adult. But you grow up, you learn it about Reconstruction and you learn about how it had to end because it was a disaster and yada, yada, yada is what's taught in history books. But then you learn, you know, we did a Reconstruction documentary a year ago or whatever and it's like, oh no, it was working. It was working just fine. But it was.
[00:24:22] Speaker B: A lot of people didn't like that it was working.
[00:24:23] Speaker A: Exactly. The white Southerners didn't like that it was working. And it was like, hold up, no, we don't want black folks coming up too. And so it was put down. And then In Compromise of 1876, it was put down and then it was retold in the same way that you had daughters of Confederacy trying to retell the Civil War history. And that was retold as well, Reconstruction. And then it's like, oh, wow, hook, line is sinker. You know, people buy this, but bought this, myself included, until I learned different.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: So can I jump in real quick? You know, it is a modern for everyone, the listeners to think of what James is talking about, specifically post Civil War, post Reconstruction, and the kind of retelling of that history is exactly the battle we're seeing now with the insurrection.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: You've got some people that want to look at this as an attack on the US Capitol, an attack on the US System of government and the Republic and all that. You've got other people that really don't want to talk about it and want to make it about, you know, some sort of injustice to, I guess, or.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: Say that the election actually was stolen and so therefore it was justified. And in 50 years, honestly, we don't know how this is going to be told exactly.
[00:25:32] Speaker B: Well, that's why I wanted to stop and say that this is an example of living through history. Right. That we look back now 100 plus years later at the post Civil War era and you know what, thankfully, that people like Jefferson Davis, the President of the Confederacy and others actually put their stuff in writing so that we know what the truth was.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: And get this and get this and thankfully there were congressional hearings that took testimony that's still recorded now that we can go and read because remember we did the documentary that was a lot of the documentary was going through that congressional testimony. And so and then we have the, that was the importance of the January 6th. It necessarily wasn't for now, but it was created. We talked about this when we talked about the hearings a month ago or whatever, creating that historical record. There's one other thing I want to mention because we're going to have to get to how we deal with this stuff.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: I got one more too when you finish.
[00:26:18] Speaker A: Well, let me, let me hit this. The other thing I just wanted to mention was that this kind of dilemma and I would say militancy almost where we are now in terms of you have certain black folks pushing back against this, the anti Semitism, whatever, and other people saying, hey, I don't know, yada yada yada, or even the more conspiratorial minded, maybe more in the camp of oh, I want to learn more about this.
We've seen this. You know, I would even point to Pre Pilgrimage Malcolm X and Martin Luther King, you know, taking kind of they wanted similar things but looking at it a different view in terms of finding allies. You know, Martin Luther King was, was more about finding allies. Other people who common, you know, either had the common struggle or was, was on board, you know, like and it's documented whether it be him or other Jewish people contributing in the civil rights movement. And you know, whereas Malcolm was anti everyone at that point it was, it was a much more hostile and then out of that, you know, like, well, he was in the Nation of Islam at the time. And then we've seen other more militant where it looks at where it does single out, you know, whether it be or grab on ahold of anti Semitism or whatever. And so this type of struggle is one that is not, it's not popping up brand new, but it's one that again, reasonable people as we we talked about it last week, it's the people who are, who are pushing for tolerance of any stripe, you know, like that's the group, you know, and we have to push for tolerance amongst all the groups because that's where it's either going to work together in that way or it's going to be chaos. And history is filled with a lot of chaos. So it could slip there pretty easily. So I just wanted to mention that and I had to specify Pre Pilgrimage Malcolm X because post pilgrimage he saw it differently. He was like hey, you know what? Actually, we all should be working together on this. You know, I've been places, I've seen where all races, all religions can gather and live. Okay. And so, you know, like, I just wanted to point that out as well, though, because there. That tension is not something one. It's not unique to African Americans, to black folks or black Americans, but it's one that. It's. The tension, though, is not one we can ignore. You know, and we'll get into it kind of, you know, a little bit more of that here shortly. But I know you wanted to get one more.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And so just to finish, because I want to just. Just jump real quick back to that quote I read up from the documentary that Kyrie put on Twitter or social media that got this whole discussion started in the country is something that I've felt for a long time, and I'm going to try and nuance this out.
There's also this myth within the black American community that I find unfortunate, which is that somehow all the West Africans were victims, and that's what they cite in this documentary, that somehow it was the East Africans, the Arabs, the Jews, the Catholic Church, and obviously to extension the Europeans that all kind of pounced on the West African.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: So basically what you're saying is everyone surrounding them. Everyone. And everyone surrounding them, like they're not, you know, like, they're not saying the Indian, like India, like they're not saying.
[00:29:14] Speaker B: No, no.
[00:29:14] Speaker A: Yeah, but they're saying the Mongolians.
[00:29:15] Speaker B: But everybody in the media, everyone that's known to have been involved with the African slave trade. Right. I mean, we know that the Chinese weren't and all that. So I'm just saying that.
[00:29:24] Speaker A: But they're on the other side of the world, basically, is what I'm saying.
[00:29:26] Speaker B: No, no, but yeah, for the purpose of here. Just that. That they, you know, that they were these victim. Meaning the. The West Africans who ended up being slaves were just these innocent victims that were just living their lives and all easy. And then. And then they get kind of invaded and kidnapped and sold off to slavery. And, you know, I started realizing as I got older, that's a narrative that I think a lot of black Americans don't recognize that plays into this idea that those West Africans were somehow inferior. Simple. And that they didn't have these civilizations. They must have all been running around in grass skirts and living in huts for all these other groups to come in and just take advantage of them. And that's not true.
[00:30:08] Speaker A: And lack of sophistication, and there's a.
[00:30:11] Speaker B: Film out now called the warrior queen, which talks about the woman.
[00:30:15] Speaker A: Yeah, the woman.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: Yeah, the woman king. Yeah, sorry, the woman king. And. And it's. It's about the Dahomey tribe. The Dahomey state is a region that's nestled right in between Nigeria and Ghana. So it's about as West African as you get. 80% of the slaves brought to the new world came from that region, Kind of the Ghana, Nigeria, Sierra Leone, Mali areas. Now, it is estimated that up to 80% of all the slaves sent to the Americas were brought to those slave traders by the Dahomey tribe. And what I'm saying here is that it's painful for a lot of African Americans to realize and acknowledge that black West Africans were also part of the slave trade process and made money.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: Let me just say one thing real quick.
The Dahomey tribe brought these slaves, or these would be slaves, to the people who were gonna take them across the Atlantic in exchange for something. This wasn't like, oh, you got to do it, or else it was like, no, no, this is it. They were making deals. Basically. You know, it's trade or, you know, but go ahead.
[00:31:22] Speaker B: And it also. What. It doesn't allow. When you. When you don't allow that belief and that understanding into your mind, it doesn't allow for the understanding that also, West Africans were a complex set of nations and societies and groups, and they had their own issues and their own infighting. And the Dubhomey tribe was an opportunistic group that said, okay, well, if these Europeans are going to, like you said, trade with us and not just trading alcohol and liquor, like, it's always promoted that somehow these. These. All these Africans were just, you know, drunk and getting. Getting. Getting usurped by these Europeans. They were trading in goods. They were. They were getting. Just like the native Americans. They were getting more arms so they could fight their. Their. Their old foes and enemies just like Europeans fight each other. I mean, it's no different. Right? We got. Russia invaded Ukraine this year, so.
[00:32:11] Speaker A: So that was a large part of it, remember, is them attacking other villages and then winning the battle and then sending those people that the villages, they just took over.
[00:32:20] Speaker B: And then the slave trade. I mean, just think about it from a logistical and normal standpoint. Do you think a bunch of Europeans really went inland into the inland parts, 100, 200 miles into the forests and jungles of west Africa and trying to get people themselves? Of course they didn't. They're not from those lands. They don't Know those lands, blah, blah, blah. And what I thought about is this happens in history. Different, you know, different groups, different periods. We got stories like the Spartans that, you know, they even made a movie of that. It's a mythology that 300 Spartans went ahead and built, you know, beat all of these Romans and like thousands of them. And then you've got the Persians. Sorry. And then you've got the famous one here in the Americas of the Spanish conquistadors that like 40 of them somehow toppled 50,000 Aztecs. And those stories aren't true. I mean, the conquistadors spent two years. What do they do? They went to all the groups that the Aztecs have kind of effed over the years and said, hey, look, if you team up with us, you know, we'll help you. And they got 40,000 indigenous people to go help them fight against the Aztecs. But of course, the winner never wants to tell the whole story because they like to embellish. So when the conquistador.
[00:33:33] Speaker A: Well, then the winner also double crossed those other people.
[00:33:36] Speaker B: But that's why I just want to make just a quick thing like, of course, the Spaniards, when the conquistadors went back and then the Spanish crown had a chance to write the history officially for the Spanish people, you know, they just chose not to say, oh, we spent 300 guys down there, and then they want to spend some time to help out, you know, get help from other people. They just said, oh, we sent 300 guys down there and look what they came back with. Look how mighty it was. And so I just saying that this isn't something that's unique to African Americans to not understand or really acknowledge the entire history. But I think, again, it's unique to African Americans. I think that it's very painful, this history, number one, number two, meaning the history of the Atlantic slave trade. But number two, I think there's a certain pain in acknowledging that your own group actually, or what you perceived as your own group actually helped in making this happen.
[00:34:28] Speaker A: Actually, that was the point I was gonna. I was setting up when I said that that documentary blames everyone else in the immediate vicinity except the West Africans. It's like, oh, we're just the ultimate victims here because everybody else around here, everybody else in this neighborhood was helping out with this. But it doesn't mention that the people that were catching the people and, you know, like, bringing them to, you know, to initiate the process were West Africans in large part. So, yeah, I mean, and that's like you said, that's painful. And it's something that that's not. If you're looking for something to be proud of, that may not be where you start, but ultimately understand. But I mean, here. But the thing is ultimately that.
[00:35:07] Speaker B: But you gotta be honest.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: You should be honest, because you can pick what you want to be proud of. But the thing is with all of these is that when you're looking at the history, you do have to one part about it. You have to understand that a lot of it is a moving target. Because as you just pointed out, things are told and retold in certain ways with certain agendas. Just like now. What you may or may not believe may be determined more on your agenda, whether it's an acknowledged agenda or not. People, when they were telling the stories, what they told and what they didn't tell was based on agendas, you know, like whether they acknowledged it or not. So that's kind of human. That's the messiness of human history. But I think we should try to be more accurate than fantastical, you know, because there are consequences when we're fantastical about things, particularly when we're looking to either put someone else down, put a target on somebody else's back. And so with that, I wanted to just speak, you know, yourself, like, how do you, you know, you're a person who's well read, you like to get into history and so forth. How do you deal with your desire to learn more about history? History that may not be. What is the first thing you come across. Why? Avoiding the traps of misinformation and disinformation and the day. An understanding. And you can speak on if you want the dangers of those traps. Like what happens when you start going down these roads from a small picture and a big picture standpoint.
[00:36:22] Speaker B: I mean, look, it's good you put me on the spot here. How do I reference him? And I think cross referencing. I mean, I'm a type of person that doesn't have absolute distrust from the traditional sources of authority. For example, meaning, I think, you know, if I see something and it's in the Library of Congress's archives, as well as, you know, you know, Encyclopedia Britannica as well as, you know, I'll try. And if I see something new, let's say I'll give you an example. This, this, this information on the Dahomey tribe is new to me. Meaning I learned it in the past 12 months. So as I was starting to read.
[00:36:59] Speaker A: That tribe in particular.
[00:37:00] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And just the whole. Their influence on the African slave trade. So as I began to read more. I started reading, you know, going down my own rabbit hole, but not just taking cues off a tweet, you know, or some post on social media. Not just looking at what someone wrote about what someone else said. Right. I started wanting to go to sources. So I started looking at, like I said, historical sites. You know, even things like the Smithsonian, you know, they have information on stuff like that you start looking at. Even if you go into websites from certain countries like Nigeria and Ghana, they'll have references to these things. The French and the Portuguese had big relations with the Dahomey. So you go to some of their stuff, their historical sites from their governments and they. So you can start matching some of this stuff up. And so my point is, I mean, well, not to get all into weeds, but just the idea that I've had so many friends of mine and this doesn't go to just to what we're talking about. It goes from, you know, the Pizzagate thing with Hillary Clinton being a pedophile to stuff about the banking industry and all that stuff that friends have sent to me over the years, last five, six years.
And because what I'll do is I don't like arguing with people and I think everybody should be respected with their opinion. So when friends come up to me with stuff that I think is, oh, I wonder if that's accurate or not, what I usually do is just ask them to send me what you're looking at. And unfortunately, a lot of times when it's that kind of stuff, which I would consider fringe, it's, it's. It has no sighting from any publication of authority or any. Which means, like scientific.
[00:38:40] Speaker A: Yeah, but that's another way of saying is, is that the level of scrutiny that it's been subjected to is usually very low. Like when you're seeing stuff in certain places, the more prominent the place, the more scrutiny. And just because something that doesn't, you know, something can be true just because it's not been subjected to scrutiny. But yeah, you need to be more skeptical of things until they can withstand a certain level.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: You know, it's a good example, actually. 9, 11. For me personally, and I'll share that I was one of the guys that got into the loose change video stuff. Remember that? And I started believing it. Right. I thought, wow, you know, look at all the evidence that they have. That. And you know what got me into thinking that way? All the unanswered questions.
[00:39:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: Because, you know, when you don't have knowledge on a topic, when there's Ignorance somewhere you fill that vacuum with usually negative thoughts and stuff. Right. So, which is, unfortunately, brings us back to anti Semitism, all the negative stuff and forces in the world just blame it on the Jews. That's simple.
[00:39:36] Speaker A: So you'll find an audience for that.
[00:39:38] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. No, but it was things like, I remember a specific one where it was the plane that went into the Pentagon, and they showed us like a superimposition of like the shadow of a Boeing, you know, and you could see where the two engines would have hit. And the guy makes a good point of saying, well, how come the hole is only so big when if we put a superimpose, the image of a 737, you know, it should have destroyed this whole area.
That's, you know, I still can't answer that question, but I've seen enough now, evidence over the last 20 years by structural engineers and others that tells me that this was a legitimate, you know, planes could bring those buildings down. There's other evidence I've seen that leads me more to believe that there's probably something to do with Saudi Arabian government, which is why those 28 pages were redacted. And then the fact that this is more of a human being thing, kind of like how the Trump administration, when it got in immediately wanted to jettison everything that the Obama administration did. The George W. Bush administration did the same thing with Clinton. And I could probably see how there's probably some holdovers from the Clinton administration saying, hey, you really should look over here at these guys and all that. And the Bush administration had its own agenda, like, nah, man, that's, you know, we're going over here with this. And when 9, 11 happened, they probably wanted to cover up that they were a little bit asleep at the wheel themselves. So.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: But that, but that doesn't mean they're in on it, basically.
[00:40:59] Speaker B: Correct. That doesn't mean they're in on it. And that's when I had to start saying, well, I don't see evidence that shows me that George Bush and Dick Cheney were part of this.
[00:41:06] Speaker A: Well, let me jump in.
[00:41:07] Speaker B: That's when I had to change my view. Right. Yeah.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: It takes a level of humility to be able to do that.
[00:41:12] Speaker B: And that's also. It's an example of me where I went down a rabbit hole. But I had to, as I found more information, had to bring myself out of that hole, so to speak.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, but that's. You stayed curious, so to speak, with that, which is good, you know, because I'll have three things, you Know, one was, is you always have to be able to evaluate the source and. Which includes the agendas of the source. Everyone has agendas. You know, like that's. People can say they're unbiased, but everybody has an agenda. Being unbiased is a way to present information. You yourself are biased, but you can try to present information in an unbiased way. But either way, everyone. People having agendas on what they say, what they don't say, and so forth. So you gotta be able to evaluate that. You gotta. Look, red flags are always scapegoating and exaggeration, vice versa, or together. When, when it's. When there's some easy answer to some complex situation and it's all their fault, then a lot of times that that's, that's one of those red flags. The other thing which goes into.
[00:42:05] Speaker B: Don't forget that feels good, though. Remember.
[00:42:06] Speaker A: It does, it does, it does. But the thing is, and the other thing that I would get to, and this is where you just were basically, is you have to treat official stories and unofficial stories with the same level of scrutiny. And that's, to me, that's where I was able to get out of when I was initially skeptical of the 911 stuff. And I was skeptical because I'm evaluating everything with scrutiny. And it's like, oh, well, I could see how I could see holes there. I could see holes there. But it was. It's. If I put the same level of scrutiny on the idea of 2. Of a plane hitting the skyscraper and then, you know, that's full of gas because it's going across, across the country and all that, and it burns for a little bit and then it brings it down. Okay, yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot to believe. But I'm supposed to reject that and believe that they've lined that entire building with explosives and it's like, hold on. That's even more fantastical for that to happen. And nobody knows.
So to me, you gotta. And actually we have a comment, I think it's in the Apple podcast with somebody because we talked about that before comment saying, yeah, that's, that's the point is you got to apply the same level of scrutiny to both sides of something. If you're looking at official stories and unofficial stories. And by the way, leave comments for us if you listen and enjoy the pod, by the way. But you got to apply, like, the scrutiny piece is important because, yes, you should be skeptical of things that you hear. But like, to me, when I look at this Hebrews and Negroes and stuff like that.
It's so full of scapegoating, you know, like that. It's like, okay, well, that also the. The. The source and the agenda. Like, they're clearly coming into this with an agenda to try to move you in some direction, and they're doing it with scapegoating, with. With signaling out all these complex things and saying it was all their fault. Or those 10 people control everything. And that's just not how the world works. Like, the world has billions of people, you know, and there are people who have outsized influence in the world. But to think that there's some grand puppet master requires. Like that. Again, that requires you not to evaluate that idea with scrutiny, but to evaluate everything else with scrutiny. And so when you put those three together, to me, it at least helps when you're evaluating these things. And I'm not one to say you should be absolute certain of anything or at least many things, but you can weigh things and say, okay, and when we did the Flat Earth documentary, remember, it was like, okay, they. All of this official stuff that they were looking at, as far as why the earth is round, they have all of these reasons why that stuff. Oh, you can poke a hole there, poke a hole there, but then they will accept everything just like that immediately, that it would go towards their conclusion, their chosen conclusion. And so regardless of the source, then.
[00:44:50] Speaker B: What'S interesting is if one points out facts to try and show them that their conclusion about the earth being flat, meaning the things that they're using to cite, are just inaccurate because of whatever. Right.
[00:45:04] Speaker A: And remember when they couldn't get their tests to show that they thought it would show. Exactly. Again, oh, we just got like, well, hold on.
[00:45:10] Speaker B: And you know what? But it's. But it's the same mentality, right? Whether it's the big lie with the election, whether it's this stuff we're talking about with certain African Americans believing certain, you know, historical untruths, it all ends up being the same because it's. Again, number one, this shows that all humans are pretty much equal, right? That everyone's susceptible to certain patterns of going down rabbit holes. But I think it goes back to that deep psychology and things we discussed, like on our podcast about the book Righteous Mind, the elephant and the rider. Meaning once someone has. Makes kind of gets it, their ego, like an emotional connection to a narrative, a thought, a feeling.
[00:45:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:47] Speaker B: It's very hard to dislodge it.
[00:45:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:49] Speaker B: And I think that's when we even talked about like the election, right, the.
Right after the election in 2020, in November, the, The couple months of, of room for there to be questions about the results.
[00:46:03] Speaker A: And even more important, remember that week between when the election was over and when they real. Everybody really got together and the results of the election were public, not just media calling it, but like, okay, results of the election are in that week. In that week there was so much of an effort to solidify people's thoughts on what happened. And so that week was an opportunity based.
[00:46:23] Speaker B: I mean, even if many Americans today, two years later will say, yeah, I think the election, like, I'll be okay accepting that, you know, Biden's president, Trump lost, blah, blah, blah, they still will then say, but there still was something that wasn't right. You know, there still was some shenanigans.
[00:46:38] Speaker A: It wasn't that that gut feeling there is is because their perception is in tune, but actually it's just because that seed was planted so early that, remember, that's the Fire Hill fire hose of false.
[00:46:49] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. Like, but these seeds were planted in the African American community. It's the same thing. Like, it's just a human. Like some people will just latch onto these things, a percentage of a population.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: And I want to say this before we get out is the reason why. And this, you know, this is kind of touched on a little bit last week, but I want to say it again. Clearly, the reason why this is so important to be aware of this stuff and to be able to push back against this stuff is because when bigotry is your answer, when scapegoating is your answer, then in our societies, these are not societies of 50 people or 100 people, and everybody kind of knows each other or whatever, there are elements in our societies that take this stuff literally and that will show up and start shooting people because of it or whatever. And so this, like, when bigotry is your answer, when oppression is your answer, then ultimately where black folks can end up in that kind of situation is they're undistinguishable from the white racists that they've been pointing out all of the wrongs that they've been doing.
[00:47:46] Speaker B: Didn't we have a black dude shoot up a synagogue two years ago or something? Right, who was a black Hebrew Israelite or something? And it was the same thing. It was no different than Dylann Roof shooting up the church.
[00:47:56] Speaker A: And it's, yeah, you don't want to go down that road, basically, because you become what you are fighting against on the other end. So from there, you know, I do want to move to the next topic now. We both checked out an article this week which pretty interesting. It was in Prevention magazine and we'll cite to it and everything, but it goes into the concept of our self concept and who we think we are and how that evolves as we age, who or so who we are and you know, in terms of like our go getterness, go gettiness or our risk aversion, risk tolerance. So for that stuff can change over time, but our perception of our, of who we are may not change and a lot of times doesn't. And so they can become, you know, divergent from one another. And so you might think you're this person, but actually now you're this person. You know, you might. Oh, when I was 20, I was like this. And so therefore I'm like that when I'm 45 and it's like, ah, well, maybe, maybe not. You know, it depends. So, you know, what was your reaction to this piece? You know, either from a personal level or just from a big picture level.
[00:48:55] Speaker B: I'm getting old because all this stuff is moving too fast. So I thought so hold on. So now I gotta deal with transgenders who are changed their sex during life and now I gotta make up a new name for this one like trans psychology or something that you're telling me that, you know, I could just when I'm 30, I'll be a different guy than I am today.
No, it's, it's interesting. I think that this is another one of those cool topics that I've kind of thought about in my head. Over my life, I would say. Not over my life, I'd say in recent years. Because as you know, I'll be 45 in a few months. So let's say I'm middle aged, right?
And I recognize that I'm not the same guy that I was when I was 20. I mean, when I was young, that age I was more idealistic. Like let's just say something like climate change, right? I could see myself at that age being much more like, oh, you know, you're going to ruin my future with all this fossil fuels and all this. We need to just jettison everything and all that. I think now is a more mature person that's older and that understands the ecosystem in terms of the economy, infrastructure needs, the need to keep things sterile, the need to get food around the world, all that I would say, okay, I appreciate clean energy and I think we should move there in the long run, but I would say in a much more measured way than I would have at 20 years old. And what I would say is it's an example. And that's just one of many examples. Right. But. But of. Yeah. Over our lifetimes, because of our life experiences, I think partially, too. And maybe a different example would be you and I both are parents and we're married.
We have a much different outlook.
[00:50:35] Speaker A: Just people, just to be clear.
[00:50:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
For the audience. Yes. We're not married to each other.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: Just the way you said it, I.
[00:50:42] Speaker B: Was just like, yeah, all right.
[00:50:43] Speaker A: That sounded a bit funny.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: I'm assuming, since I'm talking to you, I'm assuming that I didn't have to say it, but thank you. I knew what you did.
For anyone to be confused, and I don't think our wives would be happy thinking that either. But.
But, no, but obviously anyone that's a parent, anyone that's married, even if you're not a parent. Right. Like, anyone who's gone through these kind of life changes and life events would say, okay, I'm, you know, I'm slightly changed from these things, hopefully in a positive way. Right. But. But even just from understanding responsibility, all that kind of stuff, than I was when I was didn't, you know, before all this part of my life. So I think it's natural to understand that we can change. I mean, I don't think people do a wholesale change, but, you know, in a certain aspect change, and also that it's okay. I think that's one thing too, is that historically at least, the society that you and I know in terms of just this modern society sometimes punishes people when they just make a change, you know, pivot or they change an idea or anything like that.
[00:51:41] Speaker A: So, but looking more at this specifically, like, of who you think you are, because I think that's the key piece. Yes. We can all acknowledge, like, for example, as we age, we all acknowledge that we change physically. And many of us, not all of us, you know, you see some people out there still trying to, you know, when they're 50, try to move, you know, like they're 20. But many of us adjust, you know, just how we treat our bodies physically as those physical change, sometimes our bodies force that, but just who we are in terms of, like, I think risk tolerance is a really good example of this. Like, you would think a lot of times people think, oh, people get less risk tolerant, you know, more risk averse as they get older. But that's not the case for everyone. And so the real key piece here, I think, is to be able to try. And the article does give you suggestions on how to learn who you are now. It's just to not keep this outdated sense of who you are psychologically, not physically, but psychologically, as you may have changed over time. And so you understanding that. Okay, well, as I've gotten older, you're a business owner, things like that, the how. How you may have. Or you understanding that you may have changed. Well, how you know, like, how are. You know, how are you different now in terms of how you view things? And they talk specifically about how Nate, as you noted, but they talk about how nature and nurture influences our sense of self. Yeah, you know, so that's going to happen and you're. And so it makes sense that over time, that over time, if nurture is going to influence it over your life, experiences are going to influence that. But I think one of the things, and I also. I'll kick it back to you in a second. But what I think is difficult about this is that inherent human desire for simplicity. And so you kind of started this conversation with, oh, man, now I got to think of something else.
But that is kind of like, it's like, okay, well, it's almost like once we know who we are, so to speak, whether you know when you're 20, whether you know when you're 18, whether you know when you're 30, it's like you just want to kind of set that and set it aside. Okay, well, that's who I am and I don't have to worry about that anymore. But that can, because that can evolve. It's something we might need to be conscious of. And maybe you don't check in on it every day, but maybe every five years or so kind of check in and say, hey, is the. I'm going about things, ideally, I'm going about things in my life in a way that suited me and who I am, who I was when I was 30, is that still me now? Or do I need to make some adjustments or point myself in a different direction, point my arrow in a different direction in terms of my goals? Because have I, am I still on a path that what I'm doing, that the journey is still fulfilling to me, and then the end point is something that I still desire. So to me, it was real insight in that because, like, I look at the physical change as something like I changed the way I've changed the way I work out, I've changed the way I eat, just so many different Things as I've gotten older, just listening to my body. But I've never thought before this to be like, oh, well, maybe me as a, as a person, you know, like how I'm looking at things. I need to evaluate that as well.
[00:54:34] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I played college basketball, got several friends that ended up in the NBA. And I've worked in my practice with professional athletes. And it's interesting to watch young men, I would say at this point in my life. Right. Guys in their early 30s, mid-30s, go through those kind of crises at that age because their whole life has been, I'm an athlete, I'm an, I'm this, I'm that. And that which is at its core.
[00:54:56] Speaker A: What we're talking about here. Your self.
[00:54:57] Speaker B: Exactly. It's your self concept. Exactly. And then the other area I've actually seen it interesting enough is my buddies in the military. I have several close friends that were in the recent engagements in Iraq and Afghanistan. And many of them got in the military at age 18 and maybe retired out in the 30s. And the same thing, they had a certain identity, they had a certain team with a camaraderie, then they had a certain mission and even some of them.
[00:55:22] Speaker A: Role in that hierarchy.
[00:55:24] Speaker B: And then one of them told me, because he went through. He almost committed suicide and went through some real depression. He was an ex marine and you know, thankfully he's all good now. But I remember we were talking, having a deep talk and that's what he told me. He goes tunde. He's like, I go from all that and being this decorated dude, you know, kind of like a hero to people.
[00:55:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:42] Speaker B: And all of a sudden I'm like 30 and I'm retired and I literally am sitting on a couch every day watching tv like not knowing what to do with myself. And that. That again, he had too many options. Unfortunately. The options were drinking and other things that led him down a spiral. And thankfully he's okay now. But it got me thinking. And then there's micro moments within those moments because then they might. About the time they're in a firefight and it brought a distress and the need to survive brought out a part of their personality that they didn't know was there. And either it was something heroic or something they did to someone else is terrible. And that's now it's with them now, you know what I mean? And so it is true. And it's funny even on part one, just. And I'll bring it back here, when he talked about Malcolm X, it made me think of this because in the early part of his life he was very militant. He didn't like white people, all that kind of stuff.
[00:56:32] Speaker A: And that's.
[00:56:33] Speaker B: That might have been their nurture part. Right? Because that was from his life experience up till then. But then when he went to Mecca and went on the Hajj and actually was praying with white folks in Mecca, it actually changed him and he came back a different person. But what's interesting too is those around him, right, in the Nation of Islam and all that here, many of them, not all of them, but many of them weren't even ready for that change, so they shunned him. So I think there's a little bit of all that too where something.
[00:57:02] Speaker A: That's a really good point by the way, like, because that is something not only with like whoever you believe, you know, when you, you set yourself concept at a certain time, you have your friends and so forth that are based around that self concept. So in addition to the struggles from a professional standpoint, personal standpoint, there's also a social piece in terms of, well, if you wake up one day and realize like, hey, I'm not really the same person I used to be. I'm not as carefree as I used to be or whatever. But your circle is set up around people who, you know, it's like, hey, we're carefree or something. That creates a tension there. So all that to say it can be a difficult thing to. For a lot of different reasons. There's actual the exercise of trying to be kind of present and conscious on what's driving you and what your impulses are for, you know, in certain situations. But then there's all these other pressures, one think pressures that can force that on to you. Like you said with people that, you know, like with athletes or military, where people retire and experience this kind of change in their self concept, it's forced on them early from a change in profession versus many people, like you said, when this happens to them in their 60s or whatever. But there's also the pressure just from what's around you because that is the expectation. Who you have held yourself out to be, so to speak, for this whole time is the expectation of the people that you've associated with. So it's not something I would take to be or I would think would be easy necessarily. But if we acknowledge that's a great point.
[00:58:30] Speaker B: Let me just say this. The way you just put that is the way you've held yourself out is what your peers the expectation.
[00:58:37] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:58:37] Speaker B: I think that's a very good point because that's I think also sometimes with the fear of people to make changes.
[00:58:43] Speaker A: Correct. So like, oh, if you're the wild crazy party person and then, you know, you get to be 38, 40, 50, and you're like, yo, you know what? It's not really, you know, that's not doing it for me anymore. But your circle, you obviously would have been associated with people that that's what they're doing. So it would definitely put a pressure in that direction. But ultimately, if it's, if it's something, like I said, I think the example to physical or the comparison to the physical aspect of something, and many people put that off, you know, like. But it's something that is worthwhile at least exploring, you know, and seeing, you know, if your self concept is still an accurate reflection of what actually drives you, what actually moves you.
[00:59:18] Speaker B: So.
[00:59:19] Speaker A: But I think we can wrap from there, man. We appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode called like I See it, subscribe to the podcast, Rate It, Review us. See, we do read the reviews. And until next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:59:30] Speaker B: I'm Tunde Lana.
[00:59:31] Speaker A: All right, we'll talk to you next time.
I.
