Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: In this episode, we take a look at a few of the 48 laws of power which are in the book from Robert Greene, and consider the extent to which they still hold up in today's society.
Hello. Welcome to the Carl I See it podcast.
I'm James Keys, and joining me today is a man who may not be from Oakland, but he definitely could tell you some freaky tales from the 1980s. Tundeo Gonlana Tunde, are you ready to show us why your legend continues to grow?
[00:00:41] Speaker B: Man, you messed me up with that one.
So for the audience, James never tells me how he's going to do the intro, so it's always a surprise to me.
And the fact you started with Oakland and I'm from the east coast, so I already had to think on that one. But then he said, freaky tales, and I had to get in where I fit in, sir, on that one.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: There we go. There we go. There we go. All right. Now, before we get started, if you enjoy the show, I ask that you subscribe and like the show on YouTube or your podcast app, doing so really helps the show out. Now recording on August 12, 2025, in tune day, you and I have each read the book 48 Laws of Power by Robert Greene, which published originally back in the late 90s, like 1998.
We've read it a few times, each of us, over the past few decades. But, you know, as time goes on, I, you know, for myself at least, I won't speak for you, began to wonder how many of the laws we would think still stand up, you know, as culture has evolved and so forth, and then which ones may not seem to be as applicable anymore. So I wanted to start with Law 13, because I think that's one of the laws I think that does stand up well. And that Law 13 is, when asking for help, appeal to people's self interest and never their mercy or gratitude.
So for you, you know, for a law like that, when your reaction. And I know we both went back and looked at it, but your reaction to just kind of the thought of this being one of the laws that.
[00:02:04] Speaker B: Stands up well, you know, what do you think? Yeah, no, I definitely think it stands up well. And I want to say this, that this book, to me, is a great read periodically in life, kind of like the Alchemist or like Power of Now or other books that, you know, we've talked about. And so, yeah, even revisiting it now for this discussion, I got a little bit something different out of it, you know, just because of my own journey since the last time I read it. So I just wanted to put that out there as a great book. And, and also what it made me, what it reminded me of is because I've, you know, I've shared with multiple people over my own journey that I've read this book and all that. And it's interesting. Sometimes if people know the book, sometimes people are like, all right, cool, you know, and other times people look at you like you're kind of sinister as a person and like, as if, as if you know, you're reading it just so you can employ some sinister tactics on people. And what it reminded me of was how naive I used to be as a younger adult in dealing with other people. And I used to project a lot about myself and not to toot my own horn or anything, and I used to project on what I thought people would want to hear.
So in this, this chapter specifically was very informal, informative to me in my mid-30s when I first started reading this book and I was going through my first kind of real kind of dramatic stuff in, in the business world. And I, I, I, I used to appeal to people out of their own mercy and gratitude, thinking that that's what would, you know, kind of appealing to people's heartstrings. And this chapter specifically, was that a.
[00:03:43] Speaker A: Projection is what kind of.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: I think so, yeah. Because I'm an empathetic person.
So when people appeal to me with, with trying to hit on my empathy and about being a nice guy and all that, I usually fall for it. I don't like being, you know, not a nice person and all that. So, you know, I give someone some money or do something just because they appeal to my, my, my, my empathetic side. So I thought I'd do that to other people. And I realized, you know, as I'm getting older, you know, I realize, okay, there's a lot of sociopaths out here, people that don't have empathy.
And that's why this chapter helped me a lot because it was like, no, you got to, you know, in the end people are self interested and it's okay. Like, I don't mean that as there's a knock on people because I've learned that about me too. Like, stop being so empathetic. That's one thing I've learned as I've gotten older. Be more self interested and I joke with people. I could have been a lot wealthier if I was more sociopathic and I'm not and that's okay. But, and I say that as a joke. I like my empathy. But yeah, I'm not saying that, I'm not saying I'm upset about that, but. But what I'm saying is, is that it did help me understand that when I appeal to other people, number one, it can't be about me, right.
And it also can't be about something I want from them necessarily without there being some sort of olive branch to them and why my ask is going to also be in their interest. And once I really internalize that and started practicing that, I recognized how much less friction there was in asking people for things. Because either it's in their interest or they're not.
[00:05:18] Speaker A: I think that, yeah, I mean, this to me is, like I said, this is one that stands up really well. And I think this is because it touches on human nature and humans as a social animal, you know, in particular in the sense that, remember the book is about power, you know, and they could say money, power and things like that. And so when you're talking, when you're going to people and you're appealing to people as far as for their assistance on matters of power or on matters of money, it should be their self interest that you put forward. This isn't like where this, this isn't some matter of survival like you may be able to, if you're talking about survival, hey, you know, I need, I need some food. I don't have any food, you know, can you help me?
Like, that's not a matter of power, you know, so you may be able to make appeals based on empathy to someone with that. But if you're trying to make a move based on acquiring or maintaining power, then empathy is not going to be what moves people to help you in that sense. So I think that's the distinction. A lot of times when we approach it as a child, you know, or with a child, the mentality we have and learn as a child, when we're not making power moves necessarily, we're doing, we're just trying to navigate through society. Hey, can you, you know, can, can I get in front of you in line? You know, so the lunch line in elementary school or something like that, that's not a power, you know, so, yeah, you don't have to appeal to somebody's self interest in order to make that kind of an ask. But if you're trying to make a move, you know, the example given in the book talks about, you know, you know, nations and ancient Greece making alliances about going to war, you know, and it's like, yeah, so in that instance, that's not, you know, an instance where you're just asking to cut somebody in line, but so you can get, you know, a cheeseburger at lunch. You know, like, that's like, hey, we need. This is a power move. And so to me, that's the really the key distinction there. And because that's something that directly applies, that's not a cultural value, so to speak. You know, a lot of things. And that's really the distinction I would place on a lot of the laws. If you want to look at which ones, you know, hold up really well, which ones you may be able to throw some question on right now would be about which ones deal with cultural values versus which ones deal with kind of human nature and social nature. And you can extend. Extend that, like primate nature, like the laws that would apply to a band of chimpanzees equally to us. And it's like, yeah, you want to make an alliance and a band of chimpanzees. It's not empathy. It's what can you do for me, so to speak? So I think it. I think it holds up, and I think it will continue to hold up for that reason, because this seems to really be something that's a part of us, you know, at a level deeper than even what we're really thinking about, you know, when it. Again, when it comes to moves of power.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: Well, when you're talking about the band of chimpanzees, I think about my three kids as I'm wondering how to go in the living room and start asking for certain, how do I get their self interest in mind? You know, that's the toughest job we have. Right.
[00:08:10] Speaker A: But.
[00:08:10] Speaker B: But what's interesting is you're.
What you're talking about, too, is a transaction versus kind of ask, like, when you're talking about it, you know, if someone just wants to get in front of you in line at the grocery store because, you know, they got two items and you got a freaking shopping cart full, like, yeah, yeah, they don't. Like, that's. That's where it's like, all right, that's a transaction. You're not really asking me for something too crazy. And I get it. You know, you only got two things that's gonna.
[00:08:33] Speaker A: And you're not giving them any power over you. They're not really firing power in that training.
[00:08:37] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. I'm not giving up my time too much. Right? It's two items. It's gonna take an extra 30 seconds. It's not bad. But, you know, you're right if, if, like you said, that's why it's a great distinction you make that the book is talking about. It's called the 48 Laws of Power. So, so it is about, you know, if you really are asking someone to give up something. And like, we talk about money a lot of times because we can all share in the feeling that money has value and is important. But it could be other things. It could be asking someone to share, you know, to, to, to, for their reputational.
[00:09:07] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:07] Speaker B: You know, thing like, like, hey, can you vouch for me? There's an important, you know, presentation I have and, and, and I stand to gain a lot. But you're a very influential person with these people. Can you, you know, and so it's like, okay, so why is that increase.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: Your power if you, if you, you know, betray it, they could, it could decrease their power. So anything that's going to increase or decrease.
[00:09:28] Speaker B: James, because you and I are both professionals, right? Like you're an attorney, I'm a financial planner. Think about, we have clients that have asked us to refer them to other professionals, right? Maybe other attorneys, accountants, you know, business, other types of business. And it's a very important thing, right? Like if someone does not do a good job when you refer them, you know, your client, that you worked hard and you built a relationship and there's a lot of trust that can ruin your own relationship with your client that you built, you know, over years. So, so we have to be very delicate about that. And, and you know, what's in. If I refer business to you, Mr. Mrs. You know, other professional. What's. How is that in my interest? Maybe my interest isn't financial. It's not about getting a piece of their, their revenue or their fee. Maybe my interest is just to make sure my client's happy because if my client's happy, you know, they stay my client. And that's more of an interest to me because that, that financial reward is much higher than whatever the client is paying and getting a piece of that, that action. So there's a lot of different examples of, of how this plays out. And one of the things that I wanted to get your thoughts on it from the book because I wrote a couple notes here in the chapter and I really love how Robert Greene plays in the, his historic facts and stories and narratives into these various chapters because it allows us to see so many different areas where what he's saying plays out. So like you talked about ancient Greece or Athens Sorry, it was Athens, which is in Greece. Sorry. But I know these different Hellenic periods. I'm thinking of, like the Spartans and all that stuff. Let me not get too nerdy here.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: But.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: When he talked about the Japan and the Portuguese as relates to the Dutch, I found that fascinating because I found. And get your thoughts about that, like the Portuguese trying to push Catholicism on, on the Japanese when they had the monopoly on Japanese trade into Europe, and then the difference with how the Dutch treated it, you know, So I found that very interesting.
[00:11:28] Speaker A: Well, no, I mean, it's.
That is also often, oftentimes looked at something like, okay, yeah, you, you meet people where they are, so to speak, when you say, hey, you got to take this extra baggage with you. You're asking them to do more, you know, versus someone who says, you don't have to take this extra baggage with you, you're asking them to do less, yet still can benefit in many of the same ways. So, I mean, I think that that one, that was pretty straightforward to me, you know, in terms of the, the illustration that it brings out. I mean, and I would agree with you, by the way, in terms of that, that that's something that I, I've enjoyed about Robert Green's style of all, you know, a lot of the books, you know, just that weaving in these, these anecdotes from history, you know, and then be like, okay, yeah, how. How this thing was applied or how this thing wasn't applied and how that hurt people and so forth. That about his style that makes these books. Because Otherwise you're looking 48 laws of power. It's like, well, hold up, man. Do I really want to sit here and read about, you know, like, law 10 or 11? You're like, yo, what's going on? But because of the way he weaves in these stories, it, it, it's like a history lesson, you know, pretty interesting stuff. And then also it's like, okay, yeah, this is how this, this law was applied and so forth. But I mean, that to me is the, you know, really the most fascinating part of the books is.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think that how.
[00:12:38] Speaker A: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:12:39] Speaker B: Sorry. No, I was just going to say, to me, that's. It's another great example of how humans haven't changed. Our technologies have changed. You know, the way that we deal with societies and each other even may have changed over centuries and even millennia. But if you look at a lot of this store, the interpersonal side is what I mean, like, like what he's talking, what he talks about is the idea of pragmatism, that most people are kind of at an individual level like this, are pragmatic. And part of being pragmatic is doing things in your own self interest. That's, that's just, it's not personal. It's pragmatism.
Another is what I thought he made it interesting.
[00:13:16] Speaker A: Before we get too far away, though, because there I wanted to give the counter example because in the story, you know, with, with, you know, like, basically there two independent city states that were about to go to war, you know, in ancient Greece, and both of them wanted to appeal to Athens to join, to ally with them. And so one, you know, the, the, the one was looking say, hey, you know, if you, if you ally with us, you know, we don't know you that well. We've actually been your enemy before, but we have a strong navy, and if we end up rolling together, then you guys have a strong navy. We'll have to, we'll control the seas for everywhere, you know, like. And then the other, other group was like, hey, we've been your friend forever, you know, like, you wouldn't want to sell us out, you know, then all the other, all your other people, all your other allies would be like, oh, that's how they treat their, their friends, their allies of old. And so they thought, okay, well, you know, it's, it's. We've been with you forever. And so therefore we're going to, you know, you, you should stay with us now, now that we need you. And the other group was like, hey, man, we could, we could form the best team ever. We're a super team here. And the thing that was really interesting to me about that story, that illustration was Greene asserted and laid out how, by pointing to the past actions and, hey, we've been allies before, we've always supported you and so forth. You actually turned off, or it actually turned off the Athenians, so to speak, make them feel like they owe you. You know, to me, that was a really interesting thing. I see that play out often. You know, I would say, because I follow sports, right? And so with sports, a lot of times what you see is you have these established stars, and then as they get along in their career, so to speak, where they might be getting to the prime or heading towards the post prime, a lot of times they still want to be paid at a very high level and say, hey, I'm a star, man. I'm, I'm your guy. But a lot of times the teams are looking at it like, well, what we're paying. What if we sign you to a contract moving forward?
We're not looking at what you've done, you know, like we, that's that trend, that, that's a done deal. We've already paid you for that stuff, you know, like, so we're looking for, if we're going to sign you for a three year deal, we're trying to calculate how you're going to do over the next three years without thinking about all that you've done for us in the past, which is very callous, you know, and very like. But it's also like throwing that word out again, pragmatic. It's like, well, the contract for the next three years is going to be based on your performance over the next three years. But, and that's just a lot of times, you know, that's difficult for the person who's like, yo, I've given you my heart, soul, you know, blood, sweat and tears over the last eight years and now you're saying you're gonna short me because you don't think I'm gonna be as good in the next three years as I was in the last three years. And so it's, yeah, you see that kind of mentality play out when, you know, again, when it's an issue of power, when it's an issue of money being a stand in for power in some places, you know. So yeah, it was interesting to me to have that example kind of could be illustrated in other ways in society.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Yeah, that's great. And that's why I'm chomping at the bit here because there's a very interesting, I mean this is a serious thing from a legal and compliance standpoint in my industry, from the investment world. If you look at any commercial for an ETF or you know, investment firm or whatever, redefine print past performance, I know it by heart. Past performance has no bearing on future results.
And you know, I've heard that before. I know. And it's amazing the psychology of all of us humans, right? Like, because so many people, you know, if I have a new client or somebody I'm onboarding and, and you know, maybe we're talking about some investments and some different areas and pockets of the economy or the markets, whatever, and they'll want to see like a lineup of funds and they'll want to pick the one that had the best return over the last year, over the last five years.
And I'll look at them and say, you know, that already happened. You know, like, I don't know if Nvidia is going to go up another 500,000% like it did over the last 10 years. I mean, maybe it will, but I got the feeling that, you know, they're pretty much baked in now, and they're now a leader in what they do. They're no longer a speculative play. And, you know. And, you know, that's what makes it exciting.
[00:17:15] Speaker A: It's at a different place in its life cycle, so to speak.
[00:17:17] Speaker B: Correct. Yeah. So it's very interesting how we do, I think, as our brains, you know, the idea of nostalgia even we can go there for kind of life. Like, we all have this kind of thing to want to go to the past and cling to something. And that's what I. That's where I was gonna go as we round out this conversation, with the idea of pragmatism, too.
[00:17:37] Speaker A: That.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: And that's something I had to be. That was. That was not natural for me. I had to learn it through reading books like this and really challenging myself when I dealt with people to not bring up the past. I think about even in our marriages, right? Like. Like. Like, sometimes with my wife, if we're in a discussion or something, I might get triggered for something that happened in the past.
I got to put that governor in my head and be like, all right, well, this got nothing to do with that. I got to deal with the moment here and how we're going to address things moving forward. And so it's a very difficult thing to do as a person because you especially. Because it involves your emotions, especially like this book is talking about in this chapter, if you're appealing to someone for help, how do you not bring up. And that's why you're right. That story about the Athenians was great, because that. That one group comes in and like, nah, we were great. We did all this. And I think even for many of us in our country, watching our politics today, domestically in the United States, you see these alliances in the last decade or so, let's say the last 15 years, and there's been interesting and strange bedfellows. And sometimes you look and you say, well, how come this group didn't follow this over here? Or how come this alliance frayed, or this one actually got together and looks like it's gonna succeed? And a lot of that is because instead of looking at all of these alliances of the past and all that, a lot of people in the last 10, 15 years made these pragmatic decisions about the future based on where they saw the tea leaves going. And so I think we, you know, we, we.
[00:19:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean it's, it's, it's just, it really comes down to a kind of a forward looking mindset with that. And if you're going to appeal to other people, then a backward looking mindset is, particularly in matters of power, is not necessarily going to be the type of hook that would get them on board with you, so to speak. Like that's going to be, it's going to be, you're going to have to look forward and explain why this makes sense moving forward as opposed to why this made sense under the past, you know, framework that existed. Because that past framework is not coming back, you know, we're moving forward into something new. So I think there. Yeah, and I'm glad you brought up kind of the, the human nature pieces where a lot of us tend to. And I, like I said, I tie that back to like childhood because we weren't making power moves as children, so to speak. We were just making, you know, survival moves and in survival and so forth.
That this isn't, this kind of rule doesn't apply the same way as it does with power moves. You know, if you're, if we're talking about moves that increase or decrease people's relative power or have the potential to.
Those have a different calculation in people's mind than, you know, making sure you can eat, you know, like something, you know, once a day or whatever. Like that's just a different thing. And so being able to separate those two in our minds is very important. So I think this law helps with that. Now there is, you know, like I, and I know you and I differ on these some, some as far as the, the. Because I'm, I think always in reading it, I was always looking at it a little more skeptically than you. And now maybe I could be wrong, but, but in general, you know, so I, I'm looking forward to this part and really having this conversation with you because one of the laws that for me, I wonder and I want to have the discussion because I'm not saying I'm there all the way, but just I want to have a discussion and we haven't had it yet, but not. Would not seem to or does not seem to hold up as well in our modern culture. And this is just from 1998, you know, late 90s, like so in 1998, 1999. This is, you know, this is not that long ago, but our culture has changed a lot since then. And that's law 16. Use absence to increase respect and honor and I remember when I read it initially, it was like, oh, yeah, this is, this is insightful. You know, you can. Then the story that was given, you know, from the predecessor civilization to Persia, you know, was like, oh, wow, that's pretty cool, you know, yada, yada, yada. But in our modern society, you know, I wonder, you know, does this hold up as well? Because, you know, attention, attention is so powerful these days. The ability to command attention, the threat of losing attention. When you.
They say, like for podcasters, they're like, oh, if you don't release every week, or if you don't release, period, if you take a six month break, you're done. You know, it's like, oh, wow. Like that's. And so it's interesting to me on whether the pacing of our society has affected the applicability of this rule. Is this rule one of those rules that was more of a function of culture than it was of human nature? So what are your thoughts, man? Do you think that Law 16 still carries the same weight or do you, do you wonder if it has the same level of applicability now?
[00:22:01] Speaker B: Great question. I think on 30,000ft, I would say it has the same level of applicability. But I do recognize, and I think you're correct, that the pace at which we consume information from our media, and by that I mean broadly everything, you know, Internet, desktop, phones, all that, from YouTube to the news to, you know, social media and texting our friends, I do think that that dynamic has shifted a bit in when we're talking about public figures.
I think at the interpersonal level, it still holds. Very true. And the reason I say that, James, I think about the fame quote, which I did not invent, which is that absence makes the heart grow fonder.
And I've experienced that several times this year. You know, I mean, we did the show about in June that I got stuck in Israel during the war. One of the things that, you know, when I'm away, it's amazing.
I miss my wife. And I actually start thinking about. No, like, on a serious note, that's what I mean, like, on a serious note, the absence of having her present makes me want to be around her more and be like, I appreciate my marriage, I appreciate my life and, and at home.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: No, I see what you're saying, like little annoyances that you might have had, like, I don't care about that stuff anymore.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: So, yeah, that's what I mean. And that's why I use the term that that quote. Does absence make the harbor? There is Some sort of truth to that. There's some truth to what he said, that when things are too common, it kind of cheapens them.
I think we can see that from kind of luxury goods and you know, just things like that that kind of let the idea of scarcity is real in a certain sense. But I do agree with you that in our modern landscape it does seem like if you want people's attention and in the way that the attention economy can help some people ascend to power.
If we're talking about a book called the 48 Laws of Power, I do think that in our modern world with the Internet, it seems that absence could hurt you. That staying in front of people at all times does seem to have some sort of value in today's or saliency is. Today's is like a currency, if I.
[00:24:12] Speaker A: Can say it that way. Well, I will say this. I think that this law, I think this law is causing the question and for power purposes I think that it's probably has lost a lot of its luster. For non power purposes. I think like you quote the quote absence make the heart grow fonder. I think that's still in us, you know, like when something's in front of you all the time you notice more things that might annoy you, things like that. So I mean I'm with you on that. For personal relationships, personal like not power moves though. I think for power moves this law does not hold up as well. But I don't think it's the mere presence though. And that's that. That's really what I would, would go with this is that the way I'm seeing how society is unfolding now. It's not just the constant Spotlight, it's the B8. It's the ability to be able to, to draw attention to you non stop which seems to grow your power. Not everyone can, can draw attention to themselves nonstop and so to breakthrough, so to speak. And this with people constantly being peppered with distractions and information and everything like that. It seems like right now power is derived from being able to break through all that and keep people's attention despite all the things that are going on around them and they're still looking at you and there's all this stuff going on and there's all these, these entities fighting for their attention and you know, everything like that and they're still keeping the look at you. And so I think that actually so it's absence, you lose that. You lose the ability to still draw their eyeballs and so forth. So I Think that in the modern framework, in the modern culture, I don't think that absence makes the heart grow fonder. From a power standpoint, it's the ability, with all that's going on, to be able to maintain people's attention through your presence. But your presence alone is not enough for many people to maintain their attention. You see what I'm saying? So if you're the kind of person that can be there right in front of people and not get noticed, then yeah, maybe you go away and they'll notice you, that you're gone, you know. But if you're the kind of person that can maintain attention while still being present all the time, then actually that's a much higher level of power than you can get than someone who disappears and comes back. So that, that to me it's kind of nuanced, but that's the modern, I think it is environment where we're bombarded with all these things competing for our attention. I do think it's changed it from a power standpoint.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, I mean, look, as you're talking, I'm thinking back even historically, like clearly we're in a position as in humanity, that there's never been this level of media and the ability to hit people constantly with just stuff from all angles. But if we think about going even back to the pharaohs, right? I mean those guys made busts themselves and put their faces on statues. We have, you know, Kim, Kim Jong.
[00:26:59] Speaker A: Un and spectators, man, they put a picture of themselves and every person, I.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: Was going to say the, the, the Saddam Hussein and, and Kim Jong Un and all this stuff. And even we have, you know, you know, leadership now that makes trading cards and put themselves all over everything. So what I'm saying is there probably was something to that when it comes to leadership, especially leading masses of people that you can't get too absent for too long because then there's a power vacuum and other people start creeping in. So I think there may be. That's where the nuance is, is that when you're a public figure you do need to stay in front of people a certain way versus well, but that.
[00:27:36] Speaker A: Would be subverted by the example that Green gave in the book where he's talking again the predecessor civilization to Persia where the Cyrus was a great grandfather.
You know, use the use.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: Punish them by leaving.
[00:27:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And then they kept coming back to him. And so, you know, now maybe that's. But even once he was, was in power, you know, he set up all these rules of people how little people could have access to him. And he rules for 50 plus years. So I think there's. But some of that's in society.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: I gotta follow on that because I thought about trying that in my house once, you know, like, let me show everybody in here, my wife and my kids. If I leave here for like a month or two and then they'll be missing me. And then I thought, nah, because they might actually like it.
She might change the locks, I can't show back up.
That's anyway, man.
[00:28:30] Speaker A: But no, I mean, I think that there are always a lot of ways you can look at how this type of rule, you know, because this is again, a lot of these deal with the fact that humans are social creatures. And so so much of, you know, the acquisition of power is a relative thing. It's about, you know, relative positioning and so forth. So it is going to be about how these interactions are going. And in this instance, the question of whether you can use your absence, you know, like to, to. To increase respect and honor. It's probably, there's probably some truth to that. And there's definitely some truth to that on an individual level. You know, the question is on, on a more societal wide level, or even I would, I would throw out to you in one example and you know, that would be in the entertainment space, you know, with Bob Iger in Disney. You know, he steps away and you know, like when he stepped away, it wasn't all like, oh, you're the best ever. You know, it was like, oh, you know, okay, we appreciate everything you've done. You've done a great job. But it's time for the next guy. The next guy comes in. You know, Bob Chapek wasn't really lighting the world on fire, at least in terms of what people wanted, but. And then Bob Iger comes in with the hero's return and it's like, oh yeah, you know, this is, this is great. And you know, and it's, it's so. It's just interesting how it can, it can still play out this way, you know, like. But what we're talking about here, and this is where the distinction I would made, I would make is that these aren't called the 48 things that kind of are true about power, you know what I'm saying? Or that sometimes play out about paradise.
[00:29:58] Speaker B: That's funny.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: Yeah. As they're presented. So that's where I would say, okay, well maybe this one may not hold up as a law anymore. There are, it's more complicated now with the way attention is competed for and so forth and so forth.
[00:30:12] Speaker B: So just gave me an idea for a new book, James. They could just call it like the 48 laws about random stuff that we're.
[00:30:18] Speaker A: Going to talk about sometimes.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: I'm going to call Robert, you know.
[00:30:22] Speaker A: May not work out for you.
[00:30:24] Speaker B: I'm going to call him and just ask him if we can use that one and he's going to get mad or not.
Well, you're an intellectual property attorney, so you can help us navigate.
[00:30:31] Speaker A: I can negotiate it on your behalf. There you go.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: Remember, he was on our show once long years ago. So we invite him back and see how he's, you know, how he feels about.
[00:30:40] Speaker A: I think we can wrap this topic from there. We appreciate for joining us on this episode of Call. I can see it, subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what you think, send it to a friend. Till next time. I'm James Keys.
[00:30:49] Speaker B: I'm Tuna.
[00:30:51] Speaker A: All right, we'll talk soon.
