The Divide Amongst Experts on the Origins Covid-19 is Breeding Certainty; Also, Do Ultra Processed Foods Undermine Health?

The following is a computer-generated transcript. WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.110 --> 00:00:17.560 Hello. Welcome to the Call It Like I See It Podcast. 2 00:00:19.660 --> 00:00:23.620 I'm James Keys. And in this episode of Call It Like I See It, we're going to take a look 3 00:00:23.620 --> 00:00:30.730 at the ongoing debate slash investigation slash analysis into the origin of COVID 19, 4 00:00:30.730 --> 00:00:36.070 particularly in light of the US Department of Energy and the FBI recently coming out 5 00:00:36.070 --> 00:00:40.600 with at least lukewarm support and admit, in some cases more than that of the premise that 6 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:45.910 COVID came from a lab leak and not from an infected animal infecting a human. 7 00:00:46.830 --> 00:00:52.020 And later on, we'll discuss how some in the nutrition field are beginning to question 8 00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:57.090 whether eating processed foods themselves, even when the reported nutritional value 9 00:00:57.120 --> 00:00:58.890 seems to be just fine or even health promoting. 10 00:01:00.550 --> 00:01:06.760 Could be the driving factor in a lot of negative health outcomes that we are seeing 11 00:01:06.760 --> 00:01:07.960 in modern society. 12 00:01:07.960 --> 00:01:13.150 So actually the processed aspect of the food, not necessarily the nutrition aspect. 13 00:01:14.530 --> 00:01:20.230 Joining me today is a man who won't give you selective outrage, but he does try to make 14 00:01:20.230 --> 00:01:21.880 things bigger and blacker. 15 00:01:21.970 --> 00:01:23.560 Tunde Ogunlana. 16 00:01:23.830 --> 00:01:27.760 Tunde. Are you ready to grab your tambourine and make some noise today? 17 00:01:28.880 --> 00:01:30.200 Well, now I'm outraged. 18 00:01:32.510 --> 00:01:33.440 All right. You said bigger. 19 00:01:33.440 --> 00:01:35.000 Blacker and used the word tambourine. 20 00:01:35.000 --> 00:01:37.820 So what? Now I'm just some sideshow monkey. 21 00:01:37.850 --> 00:01:41.570 Huh? Now. Okay, so, audience Now I'm going to get all upset about this, and we're going 22 00:01:41.570 --> 00:01:42.830 to talk about this for an hour. 23 00:01:42.950 --> 00:01:44.270 Sorry, man. There you go. 24 00:01:44.300 --> 00:01:45.290 You could be the victim. 25 00:01:45.320 --> 00:01:47.090 Yeah. All right, good. 26 00:01:47.090 --> 00:01:49.050 Let's have that. Show me being a victim for an hour. 27 00:01:49.070 --> 00:01:51.470 That'll be fun. Go ahead. 28 00:01:51.800 --> 00:01:53.720 Go ask my 11 year old how that sounds. 29 00:01:53.720 --> 00:01:54.590 Yeah. There you go. 30 00:01:55.220 --> 00:01:58.580 Now we're recording this on March 6th, 2023. 31 00:01:58.940 --> 00:02:04.220 And in the last week and a half, we've seen reports that two US government agencies have 32 00:02:04.220 --> 00:02:09.170 expressed that contrary to the established narrative that COVID 19 came from a natural 33 00:02:09.170 --> 00:02:10.250 spillover event. 34 00:02:11.070 --> 00:02:16.050 They believe with at least some level of confidence that COVID 19 originated from a 35 00:02:16.050 --> 00:02:17.640 lab accident or a leak. 36 00:02:17.940 --> 00:02:21.060 Now, many in the political sphere are claiming victory with this. 37 00:02:21.390 --> 00:02:25.650 But the fact remains that US government agencies remain split, as they have been for 38 00:02:25.650 --> 00:02:29.160 a while, as on what they think happened based on the information that they have 39 00:02:29.160 --> 00:02:31.560 available to them. But nonetheless. 40 00:02:32.930 --> 00:02:37.370 It is good that this is something people are continually trying to get to the bottom of. 41 00:02:37.640 --> 00:02:40.550 It shouldn't be something that we all just accept, sight unseen. 42 00:02:40.760 --> 00:02:43.850 But hopefully what we have is that serious people are the ones trying to get to the 43 00:02:43.850 --> 00:02:48.530 bottom of it and not. This isn't about scoring political points, but Tunde to get us 44 00:02:48.530 --> 00:02:53.780 started. What are your thoughts on the split that has become more pronounced? 45 00:02:53.900 --> 00:02:55.940 There's been a split, but it's become more pronounced now. 46 00:02:55.940 --> 00:03:00.230 And do we have reporting out there about US agencies saying, hey, we think this is you 47 00:03:00.230 --> 00:03:03.170 know, we think there is a good possibility this came from a lab. 48 00:03:03.410 --> 00:03:04.520 What are your thoughts on this? 49 00:03:04.850 --> 00:03:08.360 It's interesting, man. I don't have too many thoughts in terms I mean, I've got thoughts 50 00:03:08.360 --> 00:03:11.380 to share on the show. I don't feel much different than I felt before. 51 00:03:11.390 --> 00:03:13.130 I guess that's a better way for me to put it. 52 00:03:13.460 --> 00:03:20.840 Yeah. And what I mean by that is and I'll give us a little horn tooting here for the 53 00:03:20.840 --> 00:03:25.580 audience. You know, we did a show, I think, back in late 2020. 54 00:03:26.180 --> 00:03:30.230 We did several shows I think, in the last three years about COVID in some respect, 55 00:03:30.230 --> 00:03:32.570 because obviously, how could you not if you have a podcast? 56 00:03:32.670 --> 00:03:37.980 But but one of them I remember specifically addressing this and this was I mean, at least 57 00:03:37.980 --> 00:03:46.790 a. Over a year ago, if not longer, was was addressing this idea of whether the virus 58 00:03:46.790 --> 00:03:52.880 came from a lab or came from, you know, a transfer from an animal naturally to a human 59 00:03:52.880 --> 00:03:54.560 through a wet market or whatever. 60 00:03:54.980 --> 00:03:58.520 And I remember saying that at the time we didn't know. 61 00:03:59.270 --> 00:04:05.960 I remember thinking in my head to in my head that the idea that there was a virology lab 62 00:04:05.960 --> 00:04:11.120 in Wuhan and that was the source of the infection, they studied. 63 00:04:11.120 --> 00:04:12.140 This type of stuff. 64 00:04:12.170 --> 00:04:14.090 Yeah. And they studied. And then, yeah, I. 65 00:04:14.090 --> 00:04:18.170 Do remember even after our show, seeing some more circumstantial evidence, like they said, 66 00:04:18.170 --> 00:04:26.810 that one of the people that worked at the lab ended up really sick and almost dying of 67 00:04:26.810 --> 00:04:29.360 flu like symptoms in November of 2019. 68 00:04:29.600 --> 00:04:32.480 And I just thought, you know, they could have had the flu or they could have had the 69 00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:34.900 first outside COVID outside that lab. 70 00:04:34.910 --> 00:04:39.030 Who knows? So I think to me, that's why because I didn't get let myself get 71 00:04:39.030 --> 00:04:44.670 emotionally charged in either direction, because I recognized that I felt like no one 72 00:04:44.670 --> 00:04:46.440 knew at the time. And I definitely didn't do know. 73 00:04:47.610 --> 00:04:49.560 I'm not I'm not, like surprised. 74 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:52.860 I'm not feeling the feelings that a lot of people are feeling. 75 00:04:52.860 --> 00:04:55.710 I think that I see when I look at the media either haha. 76 00:04:55.710 --> 00:04:57.600 I told you all you people were wrong. 77 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.530 It was from the lab or somehow trying to make some sort of excuse now. 78 00:05:01.530 --> 00:05:04.260 Well, you know, I never said it couldn't be from a lab. 79 00:05:04.260 --> 00:05:06.030 I just wasn't out here to beat up people. 80 00:05:06.030 --> 00:05:08.160 And I just think like. 81 00:05:09.080 --> 00:05:11.690 I understand it matters, so I'm not going to say who cares? 82 00:05:11.720 --> 00:05:16.100 Because it probably does matter if we really find out if this was a human engineered virus 83 00:05:16.100 --> 00:05:18.740 versus a natural one. We probably do need to know that in the long run. 84 00:05:18.740 --> 00:05:23.870 But I think and I'll pass it to you for this, I think our attitude at the time that 85 00:05:23.870 --> 00:05:28.400 we first discussed this and being neutral on it and not trying to spend all of our time in 86 00:05:28.400 --> 00:05:32.900 a one hour show, trying to figure out if it was a leak or natural, was that it didn't 87 00:05:32.900 --> 00:05:34.790 matter at that time. 88 00:05:34.790 --> 00:05:37.700 It mattered that we just needed to understand it so we could deal with it and 89 00:05:37.700 --> 00:05:38.240 fix it. 90 00:05:38.270 --> 00:05:41.900 No, that is actually the that was my point at the time. 91 00:05:42.520 --> 00:05:43.220 I said, this will. 92 00:05:43.220 --> 00:05:44.540 Be for me to pass it to you. 93 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:48.500 Because the point is. Yeah, because that was, that was the thing like, look, if that, if it 94 00:05:48.500 --> 00:05:52.790 affects how we're going to try as a society to deal with it, then yes, let's have the 95 00:05:52.790 --> 00:05:56.270 discussion then. But if, if we got to deal with it all the same, no matter what, then 96 00:05:56.270 --> 00:05:59.720 let's focus on dealing with it and and then we can keep. 97 00:05:59.750 --> 00:06:01.400 I'm happy that they keep looking at it. 98 00:06:01.410 --> 00:06:04.460 Ideally, I would like it to be looked at from a scientific standpoint, not from an 99 00:06:04.460 --> 00:06:08.630 emotional standpoint or a political standpoint, because I do think it matters how 100 00:06:08.730 --> 00:06:11.040 this happened, particularly moving forward. 101 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:14.610 It doesn't it doesn't matter much with COVID, but what it matters is preparing the 102 00:06:14.610 --> 00:06:19.020 world for future issues, because if we're doing something that is making society 103 00:06:19.050 --> 00:06:22.620 susceptible to stuff like this, then maybe we need to have have discussions on whether 104 00:06:22.620 --> 00:06:25.410 we need to continue doing this stuff, which is something we'll get into later in the 105 00:06:25.410 --> 00:06:32.400 show. But to me like that, these are presented as like kind of polls is the first 106 00:06:32.400 --> 00:06:36.990 warning sign, you know, and that you got to pick one or the other because it's easily 107 00:06:36.990 --> 00:06:42.420 like it's very plausible from a logic standpoint that it's both that they were 108 00:06:42.420 --> 00:06:47.170 testing animals with modified viruses and then an animal gets out and then, you know, 109 00:06:47.190 --> 00:06:48.900 it's infecting people or an animal in the lab. 110 00:06:49.770 --> 00:06:51.150 Like, I didn't think about that one. 111 00:06:51.150 --> 00:06:52.740 So now there's a third possibility that there's. 112 00:06:53.100 --> 00:06:53.790 There's endless. 113 00:06:53.790 --> 00:06:57.360 Possibilities. But the bat was was was was invented. 114 00:06:58.920 --> 00:07:00.390 By the lab or something by a. 115 00:07:00.390 --> 00:07:02.400 Manmade virus and got out and bit somebody like. 116 00:07:02.670 --> 00:07:10.080 This is why looking at things in a red or blue or black or white situation just 117 00:07:10.080 --> 00:07:14.100 inherently limits your mind, you know, because there are a lot of situations and we 118 00:07:14.100 --> 00:07:16.230 frankly just don't have enough information. 119 00:07:16.230 --> 00:07:20.100 You know, we on the ground here, like hopefully the intelligence agencies and the 120 00:07:20.100 --> 00:07:22.620 Department of Energy and all this stuff, they have more information than we do. 121 00:07:22.620 --> 00:07:26.460 But the way China handled it now, that's something we all can agree on. 122 00:07:26.460 --> 00:07:30.300 They were so secretive about it, they were so black boxed about it in terms of not 123 00:07:30.300 --> 00:07:34.530 letting anybody see what's happening and what's going on, that it made it almost 124 00:07:34.530 --> 00:07:36.750 impossible to really have any certainty with this. 125 00:07:36.990 --> 00:07:40.560 But nonetheless, like I said, moving forward, we do need to continue to see, okay, 126 00:07:40.560 --> 00:07:46.170 well, is this something where our behavior is contributing to a heightened risk for 127 00:07:46.170 --> 00:07:47.340 something like this? 128 00:07:47.910 --> 00:07:53.970 Actually, behavior, in a sense, we're paying to do something that could kill us all versus 129 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:55.620 is this something you know or is it not? 130 00:07:55.650 --> 00:07:59.100 Is it just, oh, there's too much interaction with nature at this wet market or whatever. 131 00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:03.690 And so but I think actually the thing that I wanted to mention here is I. 132 00:08:03.700 --> 00:08:04.950 Got to say something. Oh, go ahead. 133 00:08:05.040 --> 00:08:08.790 Go ahead. Out of either direction of your hypothesis, we can still call it the China 134 00:08:08.790 --> 00:08:09.390 virus. 135 00:08:09.660 --> 00:08:11.220 Well, but that's the thing. 136 00:08:11.220 --> 00:08:12.900 Just messing with you, doing the China virus thing. 137 00:08:13.080 --> 00:08:17.340 That's part that was actually where I was going with this, is that I think the point 138 00:08:17.370 --> 00:08:22.470 here and where it was, a lot of times the conversations about this just wasn't 139 00:08:22.470 --> 00:08:28.680 productive. You know, if the conversation was about scapegoating or blame or this is 140 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.710 all they're just everybody's doing this to try to ruin me. 141 00:08:31.710 --> 00:08:36.150 This whole global thing is all about trying to ruin me or ruin my political party. 142 00:08:36.150 --> 00:08:39.330 And it's like that type of stuff isn't productive anyway, you know? 143 00:08:39.330 --> 00:08:42.480 Like if all that stuff is true, that still doesn't help you deal with it. 144 00:08:42.480 --> 00:08:47.520 And so a lot of times I felt like with the COVID discussions, people would lose, people 145 00:08:47.520 --> 00:08:52.020 would not make and this is quoting Pat Riley of all people from basketball, people would 146 00:08:52.020 --> 00:08:54.090 not make the main thing the main thing, you know. 147 00:08:54.270 --> 00:08:57.900 And so at the time when people were getting sick and all that other stuff, the main thing 148 00:08:57.900 --> 00:09:00.930 was, okay, how do we how do we limit how many people are getting sick? 149 00:09:00.930 --> 00:09:04.680 And now the main thing is, okay, now let's look back, figure out what happened and try 150 00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:06.000 to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again. 151 00:09:06.000 --> 00:09:07.680 Or if it does, we can be better prepared. 152 00:09:07.830 --> 00:09:13.280 None of that is about scoring political points or I told you so, or demonizing Fauci, 153 00:09:13.310 --> 00:09:16.400 You know, like, yeah, like, but I'll get into that later, but I'll kick it back to 154 00:09:16.480 --> 00:09:18.230 you. Yeah, that's kind of my thought on it now. 155 00:09:18.650 --> 00:09:22.850 And my thing is, you know, because I want to talk about the idea of this gain of function 156 00:09:22.850 --> 00:09:28.970 research and should, I mean, because I think there is a fair question is like, should we 157 00:09:29.000 --> 00:09:29.210 be. 158 00:09:29.210 --> 00:09:30.560 Testing before we do that? 159 00:09:30.560 --> 00:09:32.420 No, no. Okay. That's what I was going to say. 160 00:09:32.420 --> 00:09:36.170 I don't want to get there yet because what I want to get to is a little bit first about 161 00:09:36.170 --> 00:09:38.330 how we got here in this conversation because. 162 00:09:40.340 --> 00:09:46.070 It doesn't escape me that there's a lot of like I said, I think it was about a year ago 163 00:09:46.070 --> 00:09:50.420 that I heard through like the regular news somewhere, which means I'm not some guy with 164 00:09:50.420 --> 00:09:53.830 are sitting there on a top secret clearance with, you know, all this classified stuff and 165 00:09:53.850 --> 00:09:55.370 intelligence agencies looking into this stuff. 166 00:09:55.580 --> 00:10:02.420 So I already saw in a public sphere a year ago that someone who worked was a researcher 167 00:10:02.420 --> 00:10:04.610 at that virology lab in Wuhan. 168 00:10:05.470 --> 00:10:10.270 Went to the hospital in late 2019, like in early fourth quarter, let's say October, 169 00:10:10.270 --> 00:10:11.850 November with COVID. 170 00:10:11.860 --> 00:10:14.110 So that is when I suspected to be. 171 00:10:14.230 --> 00:10:15.880 Yeah, well, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's what was like. 172 00:10:15.880 --> 00:10:20.560 Okay. There's a it seems that there's enough circumstantial evidence that it's not 173 00:10:20.560 --> 00:10:23.740 unbelievable that an accident could have happened at a lab. 174 00:10:24.100 --> 00:10:26.110 And it's funny just to share like anecdotal stuff. 175 00:10:26.380 --> 00:10:29.830 As I'm talking to my wife recently last week, she was asking me about my thoughts on 176 00:10:29.830 --> 00:10:31.630 this watching and she was watching the news. 177 00:10:31.630 --> 00:10:35.140 And I said, she goes, Oh, you think they did it on purpose? 178 00:10:35.140 --> 00:10:36.280 She thought they did it on purpose. 179 00:10:36.280 --> 00:10:41.290 And I just told her I was like, I don't really think they did because if, you know, 180 00:10:41.650 --> 00:10:46.300 authoritarian regimes, the one thing that they don't like is lack of control. 181 00:10:46.300 --> 00:10:50.440 And I said, I don't think a government like China would do this internally because I 182 00:10:50.440 --> 00:10:51.760 said, look what it led to. Anyway. 183 00:10:51.790 --> 00:10:56.380 They ended up the protest and the government had to kind of peel back some of their stuff, 184 00:10:56.380 --> 00:10:59.350 which they don't like doing. They don't want to ever have to admit that they did something 185 00:10:59.350 --> 00:11:05.780 wrong. So this appears to me that it probably was an accidental leak from a lab. 186 00:11:05.790 --> 00:11:07.070 Well, here's the thing about that. 187 00:11:07.070 --> 00:11:08.210 I just want to mention real quick. 188 00:11:08.210 --> 00:11:12.230 You can't rule out that somebody did this on purpose, but that's only because you can't 189 00:11:12.230 --> 00:11:14.500 rule out people doing incredibly well. 190 00:11:14.730 --> 00:11:18.140 No, you can't rule out people doing things that are incredibly stupid. 191 00:11:18.140 --> 00:11:22.100 Like there's no thoughtful person that thought that, Oh, let's do this and this will 192 00:11:22.130 --> 00:11:23.780 be a great idea. I can tell you that. 193 00:11:23.780 --> 00:11:29.390 You know, because China suffered a lot from this, like nobody won in this scenario, like 194 00:11:29.390 --> 00:11:31.130 there wasn't a winner from COVID. 195 00:11:31.130 --> 00:11:36.530 And so if anybody like people do dumb stuff, though, so you can't say, hey, somebody had 196 00:11:36.530 --> 00:11:39.530 this harebrained scheme and thought this would work out for them, they would all be 197 00:11:39.530 --> 00:11:43.610 immune and everybody else in the world would, you know, like it's yeah, it wouldn't 198 00:11:43.610 --> 00:11:46.430 it's not logical for it to be intentional. 199 00:11:46.430 --> 00:11:51.230 Well, here's and here's where I'm going with it because, like what I'm curious as to, 200 00:11:51.230 --> 00:11:54.530 like, I feel like there's a bigger game getting being played here at the top level 201 00:11:54.530 --> 00:11:59.840 like, and preparing for the show and really getting into the weeds as to what they were 202 00:11:59.840 --> 00:12:01.580 discussing at the intelligence agencies. 203 00:12:01.580 --> 00:12:04.850 Here's the thing, because this could also just be the American media going a little bit 204 00:12:04.850 --> 00:12:06.500 too far over its skis on something, which is. 205 00:12:07.790 --> 00:12:09.410 The Department of Energy. 206 00:12:09.960 --> 00:12:16.950 Said that they went from a no probability from the lab leak to a low probability event. 207 00:12:18.790 --> 00:12:20.290 And that's it. No one else. 208 00:12:20.740 --> 00:12:23.950 The FBI has come and said, okay, we can agree with that. 209 00:12:24.020 --> 00:12:24.400 Cia. 210 00:12:25.040 --> 00:12:26.500 Fbi is a little stronger than them. 211 00:12:26.500 --> 00:12:28.930 But yeah, the Department of Energy is low confidence lab leak. 212 00:12:28.930 --> 00:12:30.370 And that's my point. So it's okay. 213 00:12:30.370 --> 00:12:33.130 Like that's that's something to talk about low confidence. 214 00:12:33.130 --> 00:12:35.350 But it's like they didn't sit there and say it's high confidence. 215 00:12:35.350 --> 00:12:36.630 We got this evidence and this. 216 00:12:36.640 --> 00:12:37.420 What I'm saying. 217 00:12:37.420 --> 00:12:40.750 Is was my thought before though, is like the way China has handled this is like I don't 218 00:12:40.750 --> 00:12:41.980 know that we could ever get. 219 00:12:42.010 --> 00:12:42.630 No, I agree. 220 00:12:42.640 --> 00:12:45.850 With what I'm saying is I'm not I'm not questioning the Department of Energy or 221 00:12:45.850 --> 00:12:47.800 anything. What I'm what I'm saying is that. 222 00:12:48.580 --> 00:12:50.800 One agency out of all of our agencies. 223 00:12:50.800 --> 00:12:54.880 And I'm wondering, why did the Department of Energy looking at virology stuff around. 224 00:12:54.970 --> 00:12:56.620 Wouldn't that be CIA, NSA stuff? 225 00:12:56.620 --> 00:12:58.050 But anyway, I'm not in the government. 226 00:12:58.150 --> 00:13:02.590 Biden Biden commissioned in 2021 a bunch of agencies to try to figure it out. 227 00:13:02.590 --> 00:13:06.990 And there was like at the time it was eight agencies and four said that, right? 228 00:13:07.030 --> 00:13:11.500 So the point is just saying like, okay, they found a low probability from one agency. 229 00:13:11.500 --> 00:13:16.450 But the way our media is carrying on is like, you know, that this is all fact now and 230 00:13:16.450 --> 00:13:19.720 everyone's going to have these arguments now pitting themselves against each other that, 231 00:13:19.720 --> 00:13:20.680 see, I told you so. 232 00:13:20.800 --> 00:13:23.620 But it's the the split is worthwhile to discuss. 233 00:13:24.370 --> 00:13:25.420 But I agree with you. 234 00:13:25.420 --> 00:13:27.460 The way it's going to be discussed is not going to be productive. 235 00:13:27.460 --> 00:13:28.480 I mean, here's the thing. 236 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:33.100 I mean, if when the building is on fire, that's not necessarily when the investigators 237 00:13:33.100 --> 00:13:34.510 come in and try to figure out what happened. 238 00:13:34.510 --> 00:13:39.490 So I think part of the problem we had was that when this type of stuff was initially 239 00:13:39.490 --> 00:13:46.390 being floated, going all the way back to to March, April, May of 2020, it wasn't being 240 00:13:46.420 --> 00:13:50.210 floated in a way to, hey, let's try to let's try to be productive with this. 241 00:13:50.210 --> 00:13:53.090 Let's try to do something. This is information that can help us solve the 242 00:13:53.090 --> 00:13:56.000 problem. This is information that'll help us put out the fire. 243 00:13:56.000 --> 00:13:57.410 No, that was information that was trying. 244 00:13:57.440 --> 00:13:58.730 People were trying to scapegoat. 245 00:13:58.730 --> 00:14:00.500 People were trying to create villains. 246 00:14:00.500 --> 00:14:03.080 It's not my fault. It's somebody else's fault and so forth. 247 00:14:03.080 --> 00:14:10.470 And so ultimately, that got pushed into a place, I would say, mistakenly by the 248 00:14:10.490 --> 00:14:14.120 corporate media. The corporate media at the time took it and said, oh, we're going to 249 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:18.080 just discredit this stuff altogether, trying to maintain a uniform narrative. 250 00:14:18.080 --> 00:14:19.790 I think that's a bad idea to do that in general. 251 00:14:20.270 --> 00:14:24.980 Like I understand that the people who were raising it weren't raising it in a way to try 252 00:14:24.980 --> 00:14:27.890 to be productive, trying to be helpful, trying to actually solve the problem, trying 253 00:14:27.890 --> 00:14:30.680 to put out the fire. They weren't they weren't trying to do other stuff. 254 00:14:30.680 --> 00:14:31.700 They were trying to scapegoat or whatever. 255 00:14:31.700 --> 00:14:35.690 But at the same time, you undermine your own credibility, which I believe happened. 256 00:14:35.810 --> 00:14:38.150 You can't say, Oh, that's ridiculous. 257 00:14:38.150 --> 00:14:39.890 That's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. 258 00:14:39.890 --> 00:14:44.120 When there is evidence to support the hypothesis, this is why science is supposed 259 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:49.340 to operate with hypotheses, tests, theories, all that kind of stuff. 260 00:14:49.340 --> 00:14:54.200 Like because it's difficult in real time to have real answers all the time. 261 00:14:54.200 --> 00:14:57.740 And you you got to be careful just dismissing stuff outright, particularly if 262 00:14:57.740 --> 00:15:01.700 you're dismissing stuff, which I felt that they did because they didn't like the motives 263 00:15:01.700 --> 00:15:03.140 of the people that were saying it. 264 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:08.540 And so they're like, Oh, this person's coming from a place of scapegoating of 265 00:15:08.540 --> 00:15:11.030 deflection. So we're going to dismiss what they're saying. 266 00:15:11.030 --> 00:15:13.910 And it's like, now you have egg on your face because you dismissed that. 267 00:15:13.910 --> 00:15:16.910 So I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at that and saying, yeah, corporate 268 00:15:16.910 --> 00:15:20.570 media, they blew it with that because they're trying to maintain this one narrative 269 00:15:20.570 --> 00:15:23.750 now. And I will look at their intentions and say, Yeah, their intentions. 270 00:15:23.750 --> 00:15:27.440 You're trying to do this one narrative to try to make it easy for people to do what you 271 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:31.280 think they need to do to not get infected or to not spread the thing and so forth. 272 00:15:31.280 --> 00:15:35.600 But that's a risk you that's a risk that may not be worth it because you're being 273 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:37.640 dishonest. Now, then it's going to come back to you later. 274 00:15:37.640 --> 00:15:39.770 The truth comes out a lot of times, not all the time. 275 00:15:39.770 --> 00:15:41.150 And I'll say this. 276 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:42.650 That's the other thing. I just want to say. 277 00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:46.100 It's interesting because you think about everyone's, you know, everyone in these 278 00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:48.800 roles, whether it's media, government, all that are human beings, right? 279 00:15:48.800 --> 00:15:54.710 Whether we like them or not, whether they're pariahs of of of whatever philosophy one has 280 00:15:54.710 --> 00:15:56.870 or not. And I think that this is another example. 281 00:15:57.290 --> 00:16:00.560 I mean, I didn't think about bringing this up in the topic, but as you're talking, it 282 00:16:00.560 --> 00:16:03.980 makes me realize, again, you've heard me say in several different discussions on different 283 00:16:04.010 --> 00:16:05.750 topics how important leadership is. 284 00:16:05.750 --> 00:16:13.340 Yeah. And I think that to to to the defense of President Trump and maybe like to your 285 00:16:13.340 --> 00:16:18.830 point with the media, by the time COVID came along was in the third year, going into the 286 00:16:18.830 --> 00:16:20.000 fourth year of his presidency. 287 00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:25.100 Right. That he had such a developed such a toxic relationship with the with the 288 00:16:25.100 --> 00:16:26.870 corporate media, to your point. 289 00:16:27.050 --> 00:16:31.700 And then because of the way of his being, you know, he's always antagonistic and then 290 00:16:31.700 --> 00:16:33.110 he was just being pretty vulgar. 291 00:16:33.110 --> 00:16:34.640 Right. Calling it the China virus. 292 00:16:34.640 --> 00:16:35.810 And yeah, he. 293 00:16:35.810 --> 00:16:37.340 Was doing it to be antagonistic. 294 00:16:37.430 --> 00:16:39.740 I mean, like and calling it the Wuhan flu. 295 00:16:39.770 --> 00:16:44.360 You know, I do I agree with you that the media, again, being a bunch of human beings 296 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:46.160 on that side, probably were like, you know what? 297 00:16:46.520 --> 00:16:49.370 This guy keeps poking his finger in our eye. 298 00:16:49.400 --> 00:16:54.020 And the fact that he's behaving this way, let's not even go that direction to even talk 299 00:16:54.020 --> 00:16:59.870 about a lab leak now because it's just going to promote either hysteria or his own. 300 00:16:59.870 --> 00:17:03.770 What what looked to me as especially as someone who just wanted neutral information, 301 00:17:03.770 --> 00:17:07.310 that he was kind of unserious about the fact that this was serious. 302 00:17:07.310 --> 00:17:09.770 Right. Like when he was talking about putting bleach under your skin and all that, 303 00:17:09.770 --> 00:17:09.920 I. 304 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:13.310 Would think he wasn't he clearly wasn't doing that to try to help us deal with the 305 00:17:13.310 --> 00:17:18.450 situation, you know, And so, like but like that's not enough is my point for. 306 00:17:18.530 --> 00:17:19.190 No, I agree. 307 00:17:19.460 --> 00:17:20.780 I'm not giving them a pass. 308 00:17:20.780 --> 00:17:26.060 I'm saying this is where it is messed up because I could see them naturally having a 309 00:17:26.060 --> 00:17:29.180 natural reaction to someone who's antagonistic like that. 310 00:17:29.180 --> 00:17:34.700 But you're right, at this point, it looks like, wow, you guys did take a theory that a 311 00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:39.650 lot of people in this country held as valid and you totally made it out as if people who 312 00:17:39.650 --> 00:17:44.000 thought that way were somehow incorrect and should be not part of the discussion. 313 00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:47.720 And to your point, and that's not right, that's still a theory, too. 314 00:17:47.720 --> 00:17:49.020 Like that's. Not proven either. 315 00:17:49.020 --> 00:17:50.250 Neither side has proven so. 316 00:17:50.250 --> 00:17:55.200 Nobody, in terms of either of those polls really has the grounds right now to tell 317 00:17:55.230 --> 00:17:58.800 either person, the other side to say you are completely wrong. 318 00:17:58.800 --> 00:18:02.190 Nobody has the goods really to say that, because like I said, if you want the reason 319 00:18:02.190 --> 00:18:05.880 for that we can all agree on is China didn't open up for us to be able to see what 320 00:18:05.880 --> 00:18:07.890 happened. They kept it all very secretive. 321 00:18:07.890 --> 00:18:11.790 And so it's very difficult to to get the kind of evidence you would need to really 322 00:18:11.790 --> 00:18:13.510 sustain one opinion or the other. 323 00:18:13.530 --> 00:18:16.740 The second piece I do want to get to, because I know we wanted to get to this this 324 00:18:16.860 --> 00:18:21.540 more the discussion that I think serious people should be having right now, which 325 00:18:21.900 --> 00:18:27.570 flows from this, whether or not this, in fact, did originate from a lab and leak from 326 00:18:27.570 --> 00:18:32.700 a lab or whatever, the discussion it does highlight is, okay, there's a lot of research 327 00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:37.620 being done on viruses and labs around the world and where they're doing, you know, like 328 00:18:37.620 --> 00:18:40.830 you mentioned specifically the gain of function, where they're they're improving 329 00:18:40.830 --> 00:18:44.550 these viruses or evolving them and making them better at certain things and so forth. 330 00:18:44.550 --> 00:18:45.630 They're doing a lot of stuff. 331 00:18:46.320 --> 00:18:50.830 It ostensibly this is so that we learn how to fight viruses better and all that kind of 332 00:18:50.830 --> 00:18:53.470 stuff. But there is some risk that comes with that. 333 00:18:53.470 --> 00:18:57.550 Again, regardless of whether COVID came from a lab, it or not, there is some risk that 334 00:18:57.550 --> 00:19:01.210 people in the scientific and the scientific community will acknowledge that comes with 335 00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:06.040 this. So what are your thoughts on like, should we be taking a more serious look at 336 00:19:06.040 --> 00:19:10.240 this, you know, in terms of what science is creating in this context and the means that 337 00:19:10.240 --> 00:19:13.270 they're using to create it and the potential, you know, how things could go 338 00:19:13.270 --> 00:19:17.170 really bad if they if they humans make mistakes from time to time, if they make a 339 00:19:17.170 --> 00:19:17.770 mistake. 340 00:19:17.770 --> 00:19:20.680 No, I think look, there's a lot of complexities here. 341 00:19:20.680 --> 00:19:26.610 I think that. You know, kind of like the balloon thing we talked about a couple of 342 00:19:26.610 --> 00:19:29.610 weeks ago. Right. Like there's a lot going on at all times. 343 00:19:29.610 --> 00:19:31.560 And we as the public don't always see it all. 344 00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:33.720 And I think that sometimes we. 345 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:35.490 Behave as if we know it all. 346 00:19:35.490 --> 00:19:40.380 We we behave like every every talking head on TV talks like they're an expert every night. 347 00:19:40.380 --> 00:19:45.150 And every American parrots this, quote unquote, expertise at the water cooler the 348 00:19:45.150 --> 00:19:46.590 next day. Human beings are. 349 00:19:46.590 --> 00:19:48.420 Experts. Human beings are experts in certainty. 350 00:19:49.120 --> 00:19:51.870 Yeah. Regardless of the level of information except for me and you. 351 00:19:51.900 --> 00:19:55.260 Clearly. Because I get the feeling that one of the big things we're going to say today, 352 00:19:55.260 --> 00:19:58.410 just to make sure that we cover the ground for three years from now when the next theory 353 00:19:58.410 --> 00:20:00.300 comes out is we still don't know. 354 00:20:01.080 --> 00:20:02.820 That's why I said we're not in a conclusion. 355 00:20:02.820 --> 00:20:05.880 All we're saying is that nobody else can tell the other person that they don't. 356 00:20:05.880 --> 00:20:10.170 Yeah. Or that they're wrong because there's a lot of a lot of gaps in the information 357 00:20:10.170 --> 00:20:10.530 here. 358 00:20:10.530 --> 00:20:15.180 And here's where I'm getting at with the thought is that really when you when you 359 00:20:15.180 --> 00:20:21.060 think about it like in reading and preparing actually helped me like a lot because you 360 00:20:21.060 --> 00:20:25.540 realize there's so much going on and what I mean by that is yes, there are gain of 361 00:20:25.540 --> 00:20:30.670 function research and virology labs and there's, you know, some people that think 362 00:20:30.670 --> 00:20:34.600 that there's a legitimate need for that so that scientists can get ahead of maybe 363 00:20:34.600 --> 00:20:39.490 viruses and things that may develop and already have something on the shelf that's 364 00:20:39.490 --> 00:20:43.390 been researched already so that the next COVID, maybe we have already a vaccine or 365 00:20:43.390 --> 00:20:47.550 something that's already in the works or there's something or at least. 366 00:20:47.560 --> 00:20:51.100 We know how to put something together pretty quickly because it's like, Oh yeah, with 367 00:20:51.100 --> 00:20:52.180 this, we got to do this. 368 00:20:52.180 --> 00:20:56.440 Yeah. Now there's another side of the scientific world that says the ends don't 369 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:01.000 justify the means with that, because no matter how like if you can save 100,000 370 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:06.400 people with with some, you know, DNA research from some virology or gain of 371 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:11.290 function research that came out the risk like we saw with with with COVID could be 372 00:21:11.290 --> 00:21:16.390 that if this accidentally got out and leaked out that, you know, you could kill 10 million 373 00:21:16.390 --> 00:21:16.900 people. 374 00:21:16.900 --> 00:21:21.070 Well, you know, put it simply, you could bring about the catastrophe that you say 375 00:21:21.070 --> 00:21:22.130 you're trying to prevent. Correct. 376 00:21:22.150 --> 00:21:28.450 So I realize after reading up on this, I'm more I lean towards the side of we probably 377 00:21:28.450 --> 00:21:29.710 just shouldn't do this at all. 378 00:21:29.740 --> 00:21:37.830 Because also what I learned in preparing for today is that there's an estimated 4 to 379 00:21:37.830 --> 00:21:44.200 10,000 viruses that the scientists know of that are in animal populations that could 380 00:21:44.200 --> 00:21:45.250 leap to humans. 381 00:21:45.250 --> 00:21:49.390 And they're saying it's very rare that that happens naturally, which is why humans are 382 00:21:49.390 --> 00:21:51.580 still around after all the thousands and millions of years. 383 00:21:51.580 --> 00:21:53.110 Right. Because clearly. 384 00:21:53.110 --> 00:21:57.100 And animals, too, like we don't tend to share our pathogens too much. 385 00:21:57.250 --> 00:22:01.570 But they were saying that if you were to have because they talked about then the 386 00:22:01.570 --> 00:22:03.610 redundancies you need in all these labs and all that. 387 00:22:03.610 --> 00:22:09.730 And they just said the statistical chance of keeping all these viruses totally locked down 388 00:22:09.730 --> 00:22:12.760 forever is almost zero, that at some point there's a leak. 389 00:22:12.760 --> 00:22:16.090 And you know, what I started thinking of is things like nuclear. 390 00:22:16.090 --> 00:22:20.020 Just real quick, I want to say that because the standard is perfection, right? 391 00:22:20.020 --> 00:22:21.370 Yeah. Like you got to be perfect. 392 00:22:21.370 --> 00:22:22.930 And like you said, can you be perfect? 393 00:22:22.930 --> 00:22:24.670 How many movies have we seen of there? 394 00:22:24.670 --> 00:22:27.880 Is that one guy like the Joker's character symbolizes, right? 395 00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:31.960 In the Batman movies, there is somebody out there at all times in a population that just 396 00:22:31.960 --> 00:22:35.200 wants to do something stupid, to stick it in everyone's eye. 397 00:22:35.230 --> 00:22:39.550 And God forbid that's a person that ended up getting a clearance to, you know, is employed 398 00:22:39.550 --> 00:22:40.840 by a virology lab. 399 00:22:40.840 --> 00:22:45.460 So then and I'll pass it back here, what it got me thinking of where other big decisions 400 00:22:45.460 --> 00:22:50.170 that we need that we've been making as societies like it's not the same, but it was 401 00:22:50.170 --> 00:22:51.610 similar to hit my head of like nuclear power. 402 00:22:52.540 --> 00:22:57.730 Like I'm actually personally, I'm a big fan of nuclear power as a way of having a cleaner 403 00:22:57.730 --> 00:23:00.940 experience for energy than fossil fuels. 404 00:23:00.940 --> 00:23:06.910 Where I am also very aware is that if it's not regulated properly or if you have a 405 00:23:06.910 --> 00:23:10.570 natural disaster like the Fukushima plant where the tidal wave hit, like there's going 406 00:23:10.570 --> 00:23:15.280 to be something catastrophe that you may not be able to prevent and it might cause a 407 00:23:15.280 --> 00:23:17.620 nuclear meltdown and hurt a bunch of people. 408 00:23:17.620 --> 00:23:18.730 So I would say and. 409 00:23:18.730 --> 00:23:20.800 Then you have the question is whether it's worth it then, correct? 410 00:23:20.800 --> 00:23:24.850 That's what I'm saying. So as much as I believe in nuclear, I can still say, well, it 411 00:23:24.850 --> 00:23:28.620 makes me nervous. And that's where I say like, yeah, sorry, go ahead. 412 00:23:28.630 --> 00:23:32.500 Well, but here's the thing is because science is a progression, it makes it these decisions 413 00:23:32.500 --> 00:23:35.680 very difficult because I'll use your nuclear power, for example, before I get because I 414 00:23:35.680 --> 00:23:38.590 was going to go down a similar road, like, what do we want to get to? 415 00:23:38.620 --> 00:23:40.600 Is, is fusion nuclear fusion? 416 00:23:40.600 --> 00:23:44.110 If we can get to that, then we don't have to deal with all this radioactive stuff and so 417 00:23:44.110 --> 00:23:47.440 forth. But conceivably we won't really be able to get to that. 418 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:51.670 And except by going through nuclear fission, which is the what we use for nuclear power 419 00:23:51.670 --> 00:23:56.530 now and which generates all this radioactive stuff, the stuff that stays radioactive for 420 00:23:56.530 --> 00:24:00.160 millions of years. And so we like we still don't know where to put all the nuclear waste 421 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:01.690 that we have from the nuclear power plants we have now. 422 00:24:01.690 --> 00:24:06.730 And so but to get to where we want to get to where we can have clean energy, the kind of 423 00:24:06.730 --> 00:24:08.950 energy the sun uses, we probably have to go through there. 424 00:24:08.950 --> 00:24:10.300 So what do you do in that situation? 425 00:24:10.300 --> 00:24:15.580 And so to me, I look at gain of function not much different than I'm looking at like GMOs, 426 00:24:15.580 --> 00:24:21.910 genetically modified organisms or AI or cloning or going back, you know, 80 years 427 00:24:21.940 --> 00:24:23.230 nuclear bombs. Nuclear weapons. 428 00:24:23.550 --> 00:24:29.250 Like all of these things are things that could bring about levels of catastrophe that 429 00:24:29.250 --> 00:24:33.600 we clearly either don't fully appreciate or else we'd be walking around without pulling 430 00:24:33.600 --> 00:24:34.860 our hair out all the time. 431 00:24:34.860 --> 00:24:41.550 Or that just from a risk reward standpoint, you can really make a compelling case that 432 00:24:41.550 --> 00:24:46.350 that it lends more against doing it because it's like, oh, because the risk is so high. 433 00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:52.950 So all of this science stuff, where we are now is stuff that carries a level of of of 434 00:24:52.950 --> 00:24:57.060 risk. But the problem I think and I think these are these are solutions that this is 435 00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:00.900 why you hopefully are in a democratic society, that you have serious people in 436 00:25:00.900 --> 00:25:06.420 leadership, serious people looking at it, because the issue is that you can't just do 437 00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:08.730 the whole, you know, hey, we'll just ban it. 438 00:25:08.730 --> 00:25:10.110 We're we don't like this. We'll ban this. 439 00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:11.460 We don't like that. We'll ban that. 440 00:25:11.460 --> 00:25:15.330 That doesn't work for stuff like this, because if you ban it, you're just pushing it 441 00:25:15.330 --> 00:25:21.750 underground where there'll be less scrutiny, less controls, less redundancy, more risk. 442 00:25:21.750 --> 00:25:26.290 So actually, by banning it, you're not going to get rid of human ingenuity. 443 00:25:26.320 --> 00:25:29.080 Humans are not going to stop trying to advance science. 444 00:25:29.080 --> 00:25:35.440 The church tried to ban astronomy, you know, but we we we people got telescopes that 445 00:25:35.440 --> 00:25:37.540 started looking like it's not going to work. 446 00:25:37.540 --> 00:25:38.230 And so, remember, the. 447 00:25:38.230 --> 00:25:39.190 Earth is flat. 448 00:25:39.760 --> 00:25:41.800 Yes. Yes. And the earth is the center of the universe. 449 00:25:42.280 --> 00:25:42.760 Yeah, that's. 450 00:25:42.760 --> 00:25:43.330 A whole different story. 451 00:25:43.360 --> 00:25:46.210 But except all the moons that go around Jupiter. 452 00:25:47.530 --> 00:25:50.190 And except for all the aliens that came and built the pyramids. 453 00:25:50.200 --> 00:25:54.240 Oh, yeah. So, yeah, we got to figure out how to square all these things up. 454 00:25:54.250 --> 00:25:58.840 My point being that it's not going to work to just say, okay, we're uncomfortable with 455 00:25:58.840 --> 00:26:01.270 this. We there is a huge level of risk. 456 00:26:01.300 --> 00:26:03.820 There's a reward, but there's a huge level of risk that we got to get through that's 457 00:26:03.820 --> 00:26:06.550 going to be ever present or whatever. And so we're just going to ban it because then you 458 00:26:06.550 --> 00:26:09.940 actually may may make it more likely that something like this is going to happen. 459 00:26:09.940 --> 00:26:11.830 And so. Well, you know, it's Well, so I was going to say. 460 00:26:11.830 --> 00:26:16.930 So it's just this dilemma that you end up in where it's like, okay, once we cross these 461 00:26:16.960 --> 00:26:19.960 these bridges, you can't really go back. 462 00:26:19.960 --> 00:26:24.670 So how then do you build a society that can manage the risk? 463 00:26:25.030 --> 00:26:29.110 Well, I think you know, the hit a lot there. 464 00:26:29.110 --> 00:26:33.130 I would say this even hearing all the the the type of things you mentioned, like the 465 00:26:33.130 --> 00:26:38.500 nuclear bombs and the GMOs, to me, this this gain of function research on viruses is just 466 00:26:38.500 --> 00:26:42.970 a whole different ball game because as terrible as, let's say, the Fukushima 467 00:26:42.970 --> 00:26:44.290 meltdown was right. 468 00:26:44.410 --> 00:26:48.430 Again, that wasn't about them being bad at regulating their plan and all that is because 469 00:26:48.430 --> 00:26:51.700 they got hit with a freaking tidal wave because there was a magnitude seven 470 00:26:51.700 --> 00:26:53.500 earthquake off the coast of Japan. 471 00:26:53.500 --> 00:26:57.880 So that was just it was like the Twin Towers coming down after two planes were flown into 472 00:26:57.880 --> 00:27:01.600 them in 911. Like there's certain contingencies, I guess, that people just 473 00:27:01.600 --> 00:27:02.680 didn't think to plan for. 474 00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:03.940 And that's I'm not blaming them. 475 00:27:03.940 --> 00:27:10.090 Right. Like, you know, this is sometimes these things happen, but even then that 476 00:27:10.090 --> 00:27:13.210 really was affected in that part of the world, the virus. 477 00:27:13.210 --> 00:27:17.080 Think about it. The virus, whether it came out of that lab or it came out of a bat. 478 00:27:17.820 --> 00:27:23.880 It hit one person and within a year or two years, six, 6 million people were dead around 479 00:27:23.880 --> 00:27:24.990 the world or whatever, you know, like. 480 00:27:25.080 --> 00:27:26.570 Everybody got touched by it, you know. 481 00:27:26.700 --> 00:27:28.170 Like everybody. And it closed. 482 00:27:28.170 --> 00:27:31.410 And that's what I mean. Like, we've done the shows about the economy, the supply chains, 483 00:27:31.410 --> 00:27:36.810 the inflation. Look at all the all the negativity that it led to just in the global 484 00:27:36.810 --> 00:27:40.320 situation, both economically and personally for a lot of people. 485 00:27:40.320 --> 00:27:45.660 So I do think that when you have especially something that can be airborne like that, 486 00:27:46.110 --> 00:27:47.400 it's just a whole different level. 487 00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:50.910 We got to just be like, Yo, we got to be very careful with how we approach this going 488 00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:54.240 forward. And that's what I mean. Like, I think it goes back to as well, James, we've 489 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:59.130 had this in other discussions about just totally other topics like aging and like 490 00:27:59.130 --> 00:28:04.650 this, this people always wanting to solve everything in the moment scientifically and 491 00:28:04.650 --> 00:28:05.670 genetically for humans. 492 00:28:05.670 --> 00:28:06.450 And it's like at some. 493 00:28:06.450 --> 00:28:07.500 Point in that's built. 494 00:28:07.500 --> 00:28:07.880 No, no. 495 00:28:07.890 --> 00:28:08.670 I'm just saying that I. 496 00:28:08.670 --> 00:28:10.290 Think experience. But that's what. 497 00:28:10.290 --> 00:28:12.150 You said is the risk and reward. 498 00:28:12.150 --> 00:28:17.430 I'd rather make sure that humanity survives, then try and solve every single disease right 499 00:28:17.530 --> 00:28:22.240 now and run the risk that we have a COVID, but that let's say it's an airborne version 500 00:28:22.270 --> 00:28:25.960 of Ebola that has a 94% mortality rate. 501 00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:29.530 I recognize your concern and I think it's a very valid concern. 502 00:28:29.530 --> 00:28:32.410 But what I'm saying is that you can't go back through the door. 503 00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:35.200 Like once that stuff is here, it's going to be here. 504 00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:38.830 And so this gets to your point actually, on the importance of leadership. 505 00:28:38.830 --> 00:28:44.440 This is why you need serious people in leadership, because the issue is going to 506 00:28:44.440 --> 00:28:46.840 come down to managing risk. 507 00:28:46.870 --> 00:28:49.840 You're not going to be able to ban your way out of this kind of stuff. 508 00:28:49.840 --> 00:28:51.490 It's just not going to work because it goes underground. 509 00:28:51.970 --> 00:28:55.000 Like, like I said, you're actually going to increase the risk for something bad happen 510 00:28:55.000 --> 00:28:56.710 because then they're not going to have proper funding. 511 00:28:56.710 --> 00:28:59.830 They're not going to have the proper and proper incentives to try to keep everything 512 00:28:59.830 --> 00:29:02.020 from happening or any kind of negative consequence. 513 00:29:02.470 --> 00:29:05.890 So, I mean, to me, it's about with most things. 514 00:29:06.130 --> 00:29:10.720 Once you cross the you know, once once somebody hits puberty, it's not about you ban 515 00:29:10.750 --> 00:29:13.030 sex. It's about, hey, you got to learn how to manage risk. 516 00:29:13.030 --> 00:29:17.140 Yeah. So it's the same kind of thing like, so that's it's a societal level now and it 517 00:29:17.140 --> 00:29:20.800 makes it more difficult when you have people who don't want to be serious about it or who 518 00:29:20.800 --> 00:29:24.670 just want to blame people who want to just look at the world as heroes and villains and 519 00:29:24.670 --> 00:29:26.410 say, Oh, let's blame everybody for this and that. 520 00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:29.260 But I want to get on this point, though. 521 00:29:29.260 --> 00:29:32.320 I want to get keep us moving, though, because do you think the fact that we're 522 00:29:32.320 --> 00:29:37.420 dealing with China here, who typically operates like as a closed box, so to speak, 523 00:29:37.450 --> 00:29:39.130 has made this harder to deal with? 524 00:29:39.130 --> 00:29:42.400 Or do you think that any nation, you know, kind of in this scenario would have behaved 525 00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:45.760 similarly in a in a similar situation? 526 00:29:45.760 --> 00:29:47.350 Because now this is hypothetical completely. 527 00:29:47.350 --> 00:29:52.780 But what I'm trying to flesh out here is, were we were we screwed because this happened 528 00:29:52.780 --> 00:29:57.850 in China or was this like kind of like this is just how people, you know, kind of this is 529 00:29:57.850 --> 00:29:58.690 how governments work? 530 00:29:58.690 --> 00:30:01.600 No, I think this would be how most governments would operate. 531 00:30:01.600 --> 00:30:05.770 I mean, look, no one wants to acknowledge that they just caused a massive catastrophe 532 00:30:05.770 --> 00:30:06.850 on the global scale. 533 00:30:06.850 --> 00:30:10.450 And I think, look, you know, we we should or. 534 00:30:10.840 --> 00:30:12.400 On a local scale, for that matter. 535 00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:13.750 Yeah. I mean, that's what I was going to say. 536 00:30:13.750 --> 00:30:17.110 Like we should recognize that we in America, too, don't like being blamed for things. 537 00:30:17.110 --> 00:30:23.680 Right. I mean imagine if China acknowledged that they knew that this was from a lab and 538 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:25.720 they leaked it and then they covered it up and all that. 539 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:29.380 You think we wouldn't be there with our hand out for a quote unquote reparations for that 540 00:30:29.380 --> 00:30:31.690 5 to 7 trillion we spent on the CARES act? 541 00:30:31.780 --> 00:30:32.860 Yeah, you think? Right? 542 00:30:32.860 --> 00:30:35.380 We'd be telling everybody else in the world and everybody else in the world. 543 00:30:35.380 --> 00:30:38.290 And I was going to that's what I was going to joke and say, we don't we don't seem to 544 00:30:38.290 --> 00:30:42.340 buy into the ideas of reparations in the United States because it's been talked about. 545 00:30:42.580 --> 00:30:43.900 For everybody but black people. 546 00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:47.710 Yeah, well, other groups have gotten reparations, but. 547 00:30:47.710 --> 00:30:50.610 Well, no, to not go down that road. 548 00:30:50.620 --> 00:30:52.060 Exactly. Well, here's the thing. 549 00:30:52.060 --> 00:30:55.990 That's what I was going to say is that I think that they acted naturally and no one 550 00:30:55.990 --> 00:30:57.820 would want to acknowledge that this came from them. 551 00:30:57.820 --> 00:31:03.310 Right. A global pandemic was sourced out of them messing up versus coming from mistake. 552 00:31:03.310 --> 00:31:05.350 Yeah. A natural like that's right for them. 553 00:31:05.470 --> 00:31:07.600 The bat story, the wet market things a lot better. 554 00:31:08.080 --> 00:31:09.490 It's very convenient. Yeah, correct. 555 00:31:09.640 --> 00:31:14.200 It's convenient. So but what I would say is, here's the way I would say it. 556 00:31:14.200 --> 00:31:18.400 It had it been a country other than China, at least here in the United States, because I 557 00:31:18.400 --> 00:31:20.410 can't I don't live overseas in other countries. 558 00:31:20.710 --> 00:31:24.340 So I don't know how their cultural and kind of their political angles are. 559 00:31:24.340 --> 00:31:26.890 But clearly China is. 560 00:31:27.530 --> 00:31:31.370 In a weird kind of thing where we're like adversarial, but we have this huge trading 561 00:31:31.370 --> 00:31:32.840 relationship with them and all that. 562 00:31:32.840 --> 00:31:33.920 So codependent. 563 00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.130 Yeah, we're like, we're like bad siblings, you know, we hate each other, but we kind of 564 00:31:37.130 --> 00:31:42.590 got to live together. And and I think that that gave us that's what brought that because 565 00:31:42.590 --> 00:31:45.440 like, let's say it was France or Australia or somewhere else. 566 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:50.060 Again, like we talked about earlier, that energy from the podium, so to speak, to be 567 00:31:50.060 --> 00:31:51.980 calling it the Wuhan flu and the China virus. 568 00:31:52.940 --> 00:31:54.110 It wouldn't have been there. 569 00:31:54.110 --> 00:31:59.330 So I don't think it would have created such a cultural thing where you had because 570 00:31:59.330 --> 00:32:01.340 remember, it's the Chinese Communist Party and all that. 571 00:32:01.340 --> 00:32:04.670 So I think a lot of Americans got into this thing of this adversarial thing. 572 00:32:04.670 --> 00:32:05.120 Yeah. 573 00:32:05.120 --> 00:32:06.920 And even the thing of, Oh, they did it on purpose. 574 00:32:07.610 --> 00:32:11.600 Yeah. Like, like this is like, you know, they, they submarine themselves to. 575 00:32:11.600 --> 00:32:13.680 I don't think they exactly themselves. 576 00:32:13.940 --> 00:32:17.390 They, they clearly and of course they're going to behave that way because they're 577 00:32:17.390 --> 00:32:21.980 authoritarian. So they're not going to, you know, you know, want to acknowledge that that 578 00:32:21.980 --> 00:32:24.020 they may have done anything wrong or anything like that. 579 00:32:24.020 --> 00:32:28.830 But here's I'll give you an example where and this is where I think it gets kind of 580 00:32:28.830 --> 00:32:32.760 dangerous at the political level of the culture wars talking about this stuff. 581 00:32:32.760 --> 00:32:37.770 Because, you know, there's an article I cited for today from The Federalist, which is 582 00:32:37.770 --> 00:32:40.620 generally a right leaning publication, and that's fine. 583 00:32:40.620 --> 00:32:43.320 I read it, but this is where things get nuanced. 584 00:32:43.830 --> 00:32:48.270 So they're saying this article blames everything on Congress because the Congress 585 00:32:48.270 --> 00:32:50.190 is the one that left this door open and all that. 586 00:32:50.670 --> 00:32:52.080 So Section 81. 587 00:32:52.080 --> 00:32:53.460 Gain of function, right? Correct. 588 00:32:53.460 --> 00:32:58.890 So Section 8143 says none of the funds available by this act may be used to fund any 589 00:32:58.890 --> 00:33:03.600 work to be performed by EcoHealth Alliance, Inc in China on research supported by our 590 00:33:03.600 --> 00:33:04.650 government of China. 591 00:33:04.680 --> 00:33:10.080 Unless the Secretary of Defense determines that a waiver to such prohibition is in the 592 00:33:10.080 --> 00:33:11.730 national security interest of the United States. 593 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:17.910 So what the article goes on to say is that because of that last line about the Secretary 594 00:33:17.910 --> 00:33:21.660 of Defense determining if a waiver is needed because of our national interest, that 595 00:33:21.660 --> 00:33:26.850 somehow now it's all BS and and the and the Congress left the back door open and all 596 00:33:26.850 --> 00:33:32.460 that. Now that goes into our culture wars, because if you want to say it was a 597 00:33:32.460 --> 00:33:37.320 Democratic controlled Congress when they made that one and the president now is Biden. 598 00:33:37.320 --> 00:33:41.580 So we can say, oh, they all the Dems are all soft on China and us Republicans are tough. 599 00:33:41.580 --> 00:33:42.690 And it comes in this culture war. 600 00:33:42.690 --> 00:33:47.400 And I said, this is where this is dangerous, because if you're thinking about it really at 601 00:33:47.400 --> 00:33:52.350 the high level, first of all, I'm sure that there's a lot of important things like that 602 00:33:52.350 --> 00:33:57.840 that have some out clause where whether it's a secretary of defense or whatever agency is 603 00:33:57.840 --> 00:33:59.010 over that topic. 604 00:33:59.580 --> 00:34:03.000 If there's they can give a waiver if there's a national security issue. 605 00:34:03.270 --> 00:34:05.100 I mean, the president has all kinds of levers like that. 606 00:34:05.220 --> 00:34:09.540 This is why we put people we put people in those positions to make judgment calls. 607 00:34:09.540 --> 00:34:09.900 Yeah. 608 00:34:09.900 --> 00:34:12.780 And the other thing I thought of is to your point earlier. 609 00:34:14.220 --> 00:34:16.290 If we said we're going to ban this around. 610 00:34:16.290 --> 00:34:17.850 First of all, we can't control China. 611 00:34:17.880 --> 00:34:22.200 They might be doing this regardless of what we tell them we want them to do or not. 612 00:34:22.230 --> 00:34:27.210 So it might be in our interest to have some sort of working partnership with his labs, 613 00:34:27.210 --> 00:34:30.540 because at least then we got a foot in the door to see what the stuff going on. 614 00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:34.590 You know what I mean? Because if you really say, like you said about prohibition, if you 615 00:34:34.590 --> 00:34:39.390 say I'm banning this totally, somebody was still making moonshine out there, remember? 616 00:34:39.620 --> 00:34:40.060 Yeah. 617 00:34:40.080 --> 00:34:41.700 It's not going you can't ban your way out of stuff. 618 00:34:42.000 --> 00:34:42.360 So if you. 619 00:34:42.360 --> 00:34:46.380 Ban all this stuff around the world, as much as I hate thinking about gain of function and 620 00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:51.570 these viruses getting out, I had to stop myself and say, well, if you really do ban 621 00:34:51.570 --> 00:34:55.290 it, somebody's going to be out here messing around with viruses still in the secret in 622 00:34:55.290 --> 00:34:59.520 the dark. And at some point it's probably going to be less safe and actually have more 623 00:34:59.520 --> 00:35:00.760 of a chance to get out. 624 00:35:00.780 --> 00:35:05.970 But if we're sitting here again sprinkling money around the world as a way to keep our 625 00:35:05.970 --> 00:35:09.990 hand in the in the pot, so to speak, so that we can call them up and say, hey, look, we 626 00:35:09.990 --> 00:35:11.130 just gave you $1 billion. 627 00:35:11.130 --> 00:35:12.330 We want to go in there and see what's going on. 628 00:35:12.600 --> 00:35:12.780 Yeah. 629 00:35:12.780 --> 00:35:15.500 And we can incentivize this risk management. 630 00:35:15.500 --> 00:35:17.360 We can incentivize safe behavior. 631 00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:18.080 Yeah, exactly. 632 00:35:18.080 --> 00:35:21.770 It's like somebody told me, like last week they were complaining about we sent 2 billion 633 00:35:21.770 --> 00:35:25.130 to Ukraine. I just looked at him and said, What's cheaper doing that? 634 00:35:25.130 --> 00:35:28.000 Or World War three? And we and we got to spend 2 trillion a year. 635 00:35:28.010 --> 00:35:33.380 Well, I mean, just getting back to the like kind of dealing with China the piece like I 636 00:35:33.380 --> 00:35:38.690 agree with you that their reaction, I think, was exaggerated because of the nature of the 637 00:35:38.690 --> 00:35:40.730 authoritarian government. 638 00:35:40.730 --> 00:35:45.410 But I do think their reaction was the reaction in most countries would have had, at 639 00:35:45.410 --> 00:35:47.120 least by and large. 640 00:35:47.510 --> 00:35:50.930 And just I mean, I look at the train derailment in Ohio, you know, and we got 641 00:35:50.930 --> 00:35:54.140 allegations that the train company is covering up. 642 00:35:55.370 --> 00:35:59.570 They're covering up stuff as far as what came out of the train and all that kind of 643 00:35:59.570 --> 00:36:03.200 stuff like this is what happens when power makes a mistake. 644 00:36:03.200 --> 00:36:06.830 It's funny how no one likes regulation until the train starts leaking chemicals. 645 00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:08.720 Don't get me going on. 646 00:36:08.720 --> 00:36:10.340 That because like, that's. Yeah, nobody's looking. 647 00:36:10.790 --> 00:36:14.810 Who should we blame for lessening the regulations on trucks, on trains? 648 00:36:14.890 --> 00:36:17.320 Nobody's looking for that. Nobody wants to have that conversation right now. 649 00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:18.100 But just like. 650 00:36:18.100 --> 00:36:22.870 Just like, how come no one goes after the employers that hire all these illegal 651 00:36:22.870 --> 00:36:25.390 migrants? They just want exactly like the people coming in. 652 00:36:25.390 --> 00:36:29.620 Like if you stop if you stop the demand for it, then I'm sure that they won't be at the 653 00:36:29.620 --> 00:36:29.770 border. 654 00:36:29.800 --> 00:36:33.040 They would stop coming if they didn't if they weren't told, yo, yo, yo, you'll get hired. 655 00:36:33.340 --> 00:36:34.390 Becoming a hire. Yeah. 656 00:36:34.390 --> 00:36:35.950 Nobody those aren't emotional issues. 657 00:36:35.950 --> 00:36:38.200 So you don't get to hear those non stop because no one. 658 00:36:38.200 --> 00:36:40.240 Wants to pay $40 for a steak at the grocery store. 659 00:36:40.540 --> 00:36:41.940 So you've got to have meatpackers that think. 660 00:36:42.700 --> 00:36:49.570 China did present some unique aspects to this that I think may not have been the same if it 661 00:36:49.570 --> 00:36:55.420 was France or if it was some other country, just for example, or, you know, a lower level 662 00:36:55.420 --> 00:36:57.040 country, you know, one that could have. 663 00:36:57.040 --> 00:36:58.570 Been a third world country in Africa. 664 00:36:58.570 --> 00:37:02.050 But that one could have gotten bullied into, hey, you're going to open up like look, like 665 00:37:02.050 --> 00:37:02.960 China wasn't going to get bullied. 666 00:37:02.990 --> 00:37:04.570 I'm saying like the Congo or Uganda. 667 00:37:04.570 --> 00:37:06.850 You're right that we could have just flown in there. 668 00:37:07.060 --> 00:37:11.470 But just the point to distinguish from like China versus France or China versus, like you 669 00:37:11.470 --> 00:37:16.420 said, the Congo or something. But I think China made their authoritarian nature. 670 00:37:16.420 --> 00:37:21.670 They made a couple of strategic blunders that set the world back, that there was no 671 00:37:21.670 --> 00:37:27.250 way for us to tighten while it was happening in real time to evaluate and try to go a 672 00:37:27.250 --> 00:37:31.090 different direction for, you know, for, you know, for the most part, like they took 673 00:37:31.120 --> 00:37:34.630 initially recalled, they took kind of a head in the sand approach to this thing. 674 00:37:34.630 --> 00:37:39.640 You know, they weren't very proactive when it was still in the initial stages and it was 675 00:37:39.640 --> 00:37:43.690 more about denial and it was more about trying to cover their tracks. 676 00:37:43.690 --> 00:37:48.940 And the other piece about it, I don't know if this was France or certain other 677 00:37:48.940 --> 00:37:53.020 countries, China, because they because of their relationship with most countries around 678 00:37:53.020 --> 00:37:57.120 the world and then begin because of the authoritarian nature of I don't want to admit 679 00:37:57.130 --> 00:37:58.420 any fault ever. 680 00:37:58.980 --> 00:38:02.870 I don't know. Like certainly the governments would have been lying to people, you know, 681 00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:04.080 like the people would have got lied to. 682 00:38:04.080 --> 00:38:05.160 You know, governments lied to people all the time. 683 00:38:05.520 --> 00:38:10.020 But I question whether the governments would have lied to each other, you know, as much, 684 00:38:10.050 --> 00:38:13.110 you know, because China went to like whatever China was telling, you know, like 685 00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:14.310 whatever was being reported. 686 00:38:14.460 --> 00:38:17.940 Our government wasn't getting much more of that than that voluntarily from China. 687 00:38:17.940 --> 00:38:21.180 Whereas maybe if this was a different country again, whether they could have been 688 00:38:21.180 --> 00:38:24.960 bullied out of it or just kind of more of a cooperative kind of mindset would have been 689 00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:27.110 like, yo. We're screwed. 690 00:38:27.410 --> 00:38:29.750 Don't say anything, but help us out. 691 00:38:29.960 --> 00:38:31.250 We got to try. Like that. 692 00:38:31.250 --> 00:38:34.070 That road didn't get explored, you know, with the Chinese. 693 00:38:34.070 --> 00:38:38.600 And so I do wonder if maybe certain things kind of aggravated it a little bit or made it 694 00:38:38.600 --> 00:38:42.800 so we were the world itself was more flat footed, but it might not have mattered, you 695 00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:44.480 know, like it might not have mattered in the way that this is. 696 00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:50.420 Like, again, if we're looking at something like this, these things tend to require so 697 00:38:50.420 --> 00:38:52.280 many to control it, so many things. 698 00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:56.150 Once it's out, once once the door is open, it requires so many things to go right just 699 00:38:56.150 --> 00:38:59.450 to have a shot. And most of the time you get a mixed bag, you know, like, oh, this works 700 00:38:59.450 --> 00:39:00.830 in our favor. This didn't work in our favor. 701 00:39:00.830 --> 00:39:04.040 And so ultimately we probably end up in the same place. 702 00:39:04.040 --> 00:39:09.350 But, you know, this is these closed societies, these societies where power is the 703 00:39:09.350 --> 00:39:10.700 number one currency. 704 00:39:10.700 --> 00:39:15.140 And, you know, how how you acquire, how you keep power is your number one consideration 705 00:39:15.140 --> 00:39:19.760 on everything. Not you know, how to best serve your people or whatever, you know, and 706 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:21.820 that's this is what you end up with sometimes, you know. 707 00:39:21.830 --> 00:39:23.780 So I think that's worth noting. 708 00:39:24.080 --> 00:39:28.880 And again, it's not this isn't to blame, You know, this is just to say, okay, this is how 709 00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:32.420 how this could have exacerbated it, just looking at what's happened and just calling 710 00:39:32.420 --> 00:39:37.220 it like I see it, you know, like but, you know, ultimately you can't sim this thing in 711 00:39:37.220 --> 00:39:40.760 multiple different ways. Nobody's doctor Strange here we can kind of look at all the 712 00:39:40.760 --> 00:39:44.150 potential outcomes and say, oh well if we went this road it would have went like that. 713 00:39:44.150 --> 00:39:45.560 And yeah, like we don't know. 714 00:39:45.830 --> 00:39:47.690 I mean, there's no time variance here. 715 00:39:48.050 --> 00:39:53.720 Hey man, you're getting into stuff that's above my pay grade, so be fun to. 716 00:39:53.720 --> 00:39:54.590 Be Doctor Strange. 717 00:39:54.590 --> 00:39:56.960 But yeah, it definitely would you just. 718 00:39:56.960 --> 00:39:59.750 You just. You just. You just killed my whole hope for the future. 719 00:39:59.750 --> 00:40:00.080 But. 720 00:40:01.730 --> 00:40:05.030 Well, but no, I think we can move on from from that topic. 721 00:40:05.420 --> 00:40:09.530 Our second topic today, I mean, it's actually a little bit of a science bent, but 722 00:40:09.530 --> 00:40:10.640 in a different way. 723 00:40:10.700 --> 00:40:17.160 Just looking at we saw some recent discussion about just researchers and their 724 00:40:17.180 --> 00:40:22.760 nutrition researchers, and they're looking at the the nature of and the effects of 725 00:40:23.150 --> 00:40:24.590 processed diets. 726 00:40:24.590 --> 00:40:31.110 And one of the gentlemen who kind of has been kicking this off was looking at one of 727 00:40:31.110 --> 00:40:35.820 the things he was studying was the consumption looking at like the 728 00:40:35.850 --> 00:40:39.900 macronutrients, you know, and like things like that, like how much fat people are 729 00:40:39.900 --> 00:40:45.270 consuming, how much salt or, you know, salt being a mineral and then sugar, you know, 730 00:40:45.270 --> 00:40:49.560 being a carb, like looking at those things and seeing how he was looking at Brazil and 731 00:40:49.560 --> 00:40:55.920 seeing how that society actually was eating less, you know, fat, sugar and salt, but was 732 00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:57.570 gaining weight while they were doing it. 733 00:40:57.570 --> 00:40:59.910 And so he was trying to put, you know, figure out how how is this possible? 734 00:40:59.910 --> 00:41:04.320 Because what we're what commonly what we look at is the, hey, you're eating high fat 735 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:08.130 or eating high sugar and so forth like that and salt, you know, like sodium and all that 736 00:41:08.130 --> 00:41:09.600 is driving all this. 737 00:41:09.600 --> 00:41:14.670 And so what he came to was looking at how it was actually processed foods that had during 738 00:41:14.670 --> 00:41:19.230 the same time frame the consumption of processed foods had increased exponentially, 739 00:41:19.230 --> 00:41:20.310 had gone up a ton. 740 00:41:20.310 --> 00:41:25.320 And you know that that correlation is not necessarily causation, but it's causing him 741 00:41:25.320 --> 00:41:28.230 and other scientists more recently to more evaluate that and say, hold on. 742 00:41:28.230 --> 00:41:34.380 Now, is the processing aspect something that all all else being equal calories to calories 743 00:41:34.380 --> 00:41:37.260 or the processing might cause more negative outcomes? 744 00:41:37.590 --> 00:41:39.390 So what are your thoughts on this? 745 00:41:39.390 --> 00:41:45.180 You know, trying to this attempt to to to evaluate food by how processed it is, you 746 00:41:45.180 --> 00:41:48.720 know, and that's ultra processing may be causing some of these problems that we're 747 00:41:48.720 --> 00:41:49.650 seeing with obesity. 748 00:41:49.650 --> 00:41:50.730 It's very interesting. 749 00:41:50.730 --> 00:41:57.360 I mean, I think it's it's seems like a breakthrough that this guy came with in a way 750 00:41:57.360 --> 00:42:03.450 to look at food. I mean, it's it's in a new way that's just different because like you 751 00:42:03.450 --> 00:42:07.950 said, about the idea of and not like the four categories. 752 00:42:08.370 --> 00:42:11.870 Um. You know, it was minimally processed foods. 753 00:42:12.470 --> 00:42:13.580 So I found it interesting. 754 00:42:13.580 --> 00:42:17.330 And so that would be natural stuff that you can get, like fruits, vegetables, unprocessed 755 00:42:17.330 --> 00:42:20.270 meats. Then, yeah, things to grow. 756 00:42:20.720 --> 00:42:24.560 Yeah, Like, you know, like animals grow, fruits grow, vegetables grow. 757 00:42:24.590 --> 00:42:25.070 Yeah. Yeah. 758 00:42:25.070 --> 00:42:32.090 And then then comes just the processed culinary ingredients, which she goes. 759 00:42:32.090 --> 00:42:33.320 Things like oils, butter. 760 00:42:33.320 --> 00:42:35.180 That's like the next rung up sugar. 761 00:42:35.570 --> 00:42:41.780 After that, our processed foods, which are like canned vegetables, smoked meats, freshly 762 00:42:41.780 --> 00:42:43.640 baked bread, simple cheeses, things like that. 763 00:42:44.180 --> 00:42:48.810 And then the last, which is the worst one, is the ultra processed foods. 764 00:42:48.830 --> 00:42:51.890 Yeah. So that would be like a tater tot or something like that. 765 00:42:51.890 --> 00:42:53.680 So, you know. 766 00:42:53.780 --> 00:42:58.310 I would say like even more so like a cheese puff, you know, like something that's very 767 00:42:58.310 --> 00:43:03.620 like it gets further and further from whatever constituent that it initially the 768 00:43:03.620 --> 00:43:05.210 root of it was, Yeah. 769 00:43:05.210 --> 00:43:07.430 No, you're right. Because that's supposed to be a cheese puff. 770 00:43:07.430 --> 00:43:11.190 It's supposed to make you think it's cheese, but it's actually got nothing to do with 771 00:43:11.190 --> 00:43:14.550 cheese, right? It's corn with a bunch of powder on it that looks orange. 772 00:43:14.790 --> 00:43:19.830 So but what he says is that they all share is and this is why a word that stuck out to 773 00:43:19.830 --> 00:43:24.030 me, I underlined it. He said and quote here in the article quote is that they are 774 00:43:24.030 --> 00:43:29.340 designed to displace freshly prepared dishes and keep you coming back for more and more. 775 00:43:29.340 --> 00:43:33.090 And then it quotes him every day from breakfast to dinner, you are consuming 776 00:43:33.090 --> 00:43:35.130 something that was engineered to be over consumed. 777 00:43:36.060 --> 00:43:37.200 I found that fascinating. 778 00:43:37.200 --> 00:43:41.070 The use of the word, the part that jumped out to me, to the use of the word displace 779 00:43:41.070 --> 00:43:44.850 that basically and this goes back to things you said that this goes back to conversations 780 00:43:44.850 --> 00:43:47.160 we've had in other shows about. 781 00:43:48.050 --> 00:43:53.060 You know, we're fighting these armies of psychologists, nutritionists and people that 782 00:43:53.060 --> 00:44:00.650 understand how our food manipulates our moods and our appetites and physiology. 783 00:44:01.100 --> 00:44:08.180 And remember, I told you when we did the one on smoking and I learned in reading that it 784 00:44:08.180 --> 00:44:13.580 takes a cigaret when you inhale a cigaret it takes ten seconds for that to hit your 785 00:44:13.580 --> 00:44:17.750 pleasure center and your brain if you're addicted to to to smoking. 786 00:44:17.750 --> 00:44:22.790 But if something hits your tongue, it's within microseconds that your brain processes 787 00:44:22.790 --> 00:44:26.780 it because the tongue is designed to take, you know that obviously you're going to. 788 00:44:27.930 --> 00:44:31.920 Your body already has defense mechanisms for you not to put things that can kill you in 789 00:44:31.920 --> 00:44:34.680 your mouth, right. Especially when you're out in the wild in nature. 790 00:44:34.680 --> 00:44:41.580 So the point is, is that the the the the food industry has figured out how to keep us 791 00:44:41.580 --> 00:44:46.070 hooked like the like the like the what do you call it, the opioid industry did. 792 00:44:46.080 --> 00:44:46.350 Right. 793 00:44:46.560 --> 00:44:47.610 Like the tobacco industry. 794 00:44:47.620 --> 00:44:47.930 Yeah. 795 00:44:47.940 --> 00:44:52.140 And so that's what I find fascinating is he's really proven that. 796 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:56.720 The food is designed for us to just over consume it. 797 00:44:56.720 --> 00:44:59.090 Yes. And this has been this is borne out in studies like. 798 00:44:59.090 --> 00:45:02.360 Yes. That was what stood out to me also, because it was like, oh, okay, well, that 799 00:45:02.360 --> 00:45:05.300 makes sense from a business model standpoint, correct? 800 00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:11.300 If I'm trying to sell food, then it would make sense for me to design the food in a way 801 00:45:11.300 --> 00:45:14.120 that makes you want to eat more of it, because guess what? 802 00:45:14.150 --> 00:45:15.860 Then you will buy more of it. 803 00:45:15.860 --> 00:45:19.040 Whereas that's not really an evolutionary concern of apples. 804 00:45:19.070 --> 00:45:23.300 Apples didn't evolve to make you want to eat more of them by eating them, you know? 805 00:45:23.300 --> 00:45:26.750 And so it's how these things are designed. 806 00:45:26.750 --> 00:45:29.990 So I was thinking about paying $1,500 for a phone when you said that. 807 00:45:31.760 --> 00:45:35.720 Well, but it actually you see it with the like like we talked about with the media, 808 00:45:35.750 --> 00:45:40.160 like our media is set up, whether it be news media, unfortunately, but also just our 809 00:45:40.160 --> 00:45:44.360 regular entertainment media set up to make us want more, you know, to not. 810 00:45:44.660 --> 00:45:46.100 Don't go away. Stay here. 811 00:45:46.130 --> 00:45:49.220 Give us your attention. Same thing with the with the processed food industry. 812 00:45:49.220 --> 00:45:54.770 They are those foods are chemically and structurally designed to make you want to 813 00:45:54.770 --> 00:45:57.320 overeat them and so that you'll buy more and more and more. 814 00:45:57.320 --> 00:46:02.170 And so the study that bore that out was from a guy actually in the US who started out as a 815 00:46:02.320 --> 00:46:04.940 a skeptic of this of this kind of concept. 816 00:46:04.940 --> 00:46:11.720 And so he put together this study like a legit study and they gave people as much. 817 00:46:11.750 --> 00:46:16.010 Well, a lot of, you know, I guess twice as much as you're recommended to have, you know, 818 00:46:16.030 --> 00:46:17.840 they would they hey, here's what you're going to eat. 819 00:46:17.840 --> 00:46:21.080 You're either gonna eat the process stuff or the unprocessed stuff and we'll give you 820 00:46:21.110 --> 00:46:24.170 twice as much as what you're recommended to eat so that you have plenty you can eat to 821 00:46:24.170 --> 00:46:27.740 your heart's content. And what they found was that the people eating the processed 822 00:46:27.740 --> 00:46:33.110 stuff just ate more spontaneously then the people eating the the non processed stuff. 823 00:46:33.110 --> 00:46:38.150 And so like that would suggest that this the process stuff, if the goal is to make you eat 824 00:46:38.150 --> 00:46:41.870 more so that you have to buy more is well designed, it does what it's supposed to be 825 00:46:41.870 --> 00:46:48.350 doing. And so to me that does lead back to that, that context of okay, wow. 826 00:46:48.380 --> 00:46:53.780 So if our food is if we're consuming the wrong kinds of stuff and it's reprograming 827 00:46:53.880 --> 00:46:58.320 our brain, if it's hacking into our physiology and saying, hey, hey, hey, forget 828 00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:04.200 whether you are hungry or whether you need more nutrition, I just want you to we just 829 00:47:04.200 --> 00:47:05.940 want to stimulate your brain to want more of this. 830 00:47:06.420 --> 00:47:07.530 Then it's like, well, whoa. 831 00:47:07.560 --> 00:47:08.700 Like we have no shot. 832 00:47:08.700 --> 00:47:13.230 If that's the case, if that's what is becoming 60, 70% of our diets now. 833 00:47:13.260 --> 00:47:15.060 Yeah, no, I agree. 834 00:47:15.060 --> 00:47:20.400 And you know, it's bigger than this food conversation because, I mean, we've talked 835 00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:24.090 about nutrition in other ways on our show and we've talked, like you said, about 836 00:47:24.090 --> 00:47:25.440 media's influence. 837 00:47:25.440 --> 00:47:32.100 We've talked about, you know, the the, you know, other types of things like tobacco and 838 00:47:32.100 --> 00:47:34.800 other things that can be addictive. 839 00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:40.770 And I think you know, it reading this one brings me to a bigger conversation, because 840 00:47:40.770 --> 00:47:45.000 even when we talk about things like recycling and and just the wastefulness that 841 00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:47.900 we have in our society, like plastic and all that, yeah. 842 00:47:49.500 --> 00:47:55.950 That this overconsumption of everything to the detriment of our health, our planet, all 843 00:47:55.950 --> 00:47:58.320 that. And I just wonder, like at what point. 844 00:47:58.980 --> 00:48:00.920 Do we as a society like? 845 00:48:00.930 --> 00:48:05.280 And this is where it is interesting because I'm generally a fan of not overregulating 846 00:48:05.280 --> 00:48:09.600 things and all that, but it's like we've talked about people, there's something has 847 00:48:09.600 --> 00:48:14.520 happened in the last 15 years or so, and then like you said, it's been well documented 848 00:48:14.520 --> 00:48:20.250 that since 2012, when Instagram first appeared that literally teenagers have 849 00:48:20.430 --> 00:48:26.130 experienced more negativity like depression and anxiety and higher rates of suicide. 850 00:48:26.160 --> 00:48:31.980 We can see that the studies have shown that our public discourse and our ability to 851 00:48:31.980 --> 00:48:36.720 relate to each other in our own country has faded since all of this, tech companies and 852 00:48:36.720 --> 00:48:41.580 these media companies have been allowed to permeate whatever they want in front of us on 853 00:48:41.580 --> 00:48:43.710 our screens, you know, tablets and phones. 854 00:48:43.710 --> 00:48:44.640 And now we see. 855 00:48:44.640 --> 00:48:48.690 Just to make this connection real quick with what you're saying and all of those things, 856 00:48:48.690 --> 00:48:54.600 what has been identified is that the mechanism that's causing this is the same 857 00:48:54.600 --> 00:48:58.140 mechanism that is used to keep us coming back to it. 858 00:48:58.170 --> 00:49:03.610 You know, it's all about how do you keep people from to keep engaging with it or to 859 00:49:03.610 --> 00:49:05.110 keep eating it or to keep. 860 00:49:05.110 --> 00:49:07.570 It's all about that. And those are that. 861 00:49:07.900 --> 00:49:08.800 Go ahead. Yeah, well. 862 00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:12.580 That's what I'm saying. Like, how do you manipulate someone's brain to want them to 863 00:49:12.580 --> 00:49:16.810 come back for more, even if this is not good for them personally? 864 00:49:17.080 --> 00:49:20.950 And then and then like I was saying, we see society and to your point, like, that's why 865 00:49:20.950 --> 00:49:25.570 to me, tobacco has become less of a negative thing in recent years. 866 00:49:25.570 --> 00:49:30.250 When I look at all these other things, I'm like, okay, I remember like I've joked to you 867 00:49:30.250 --> 00:49:33.280 that I'm old enough to remember when remembering when they used to smoke on 868 00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:35.800 airplanes. Yeah. And there would be a smoking section. 869 00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:39.310 I'd be looking at my mom saying, I could still smell the smoke up here, you know? 870 00:49:39.310 --> 00:49:41.050 So I get it. Like, back then, that's when cigarets. 871 00:49:41.860 --> 00:49:43.090 No, but that's back when. 872 00:49:43.090 --> 00:49:47.590 If you didn't want to smoke a cigaret you could still get affected by other people back 873 00:49:47.590 --> 00:49:50.950 up until the late 80 seconds, let's say, when they still when they ended up stopping 874 00:49:50.950 --> 00:49:52.870 all that because you had to go remember and even. 875 00:49:53.080 --> 00:49:56.230 More recently, like with restaurants and, you know, all that kind of stuff you and I joked. 876 00:49:56.230 --> 00:49:59.410 About when we were college age, we would come home from a club stinking right like 877 00:49:59.410 --> 00:50:02.920 Cigarets, even though we didn't necessarily smoke Cigarets because everyone. 878 00:50:02.920 --> 00:50:06.760 So back then cigarets could affect everybody, even people that don't smoke 879 00:50:06.790 --> 00:50:11.770 today. You if you want to smoke a cigaret you really are just affecting yourself. 880 00:50:11.770 --> 00:50:14.380 Unless you got a little kid in your house and you're just smoking in front of a baby. 881 00:50:14.380 --> 00:50:19.870 I mean obviously that's not good, but most of us don't have to be around cigaret smokers 882 00:50:19.870 --> 00:50:20.890 if we don't want to be. 883 00:50:21.070 --> 00:50:22.870 You know what's also interesting about that, by the way. 884 00:50:23.200 --> 00:50:24.820 Is cigarets. 885 00:50:24.940 --> 00:50:28.030 Like, I didn't know if you were going this way, but in terms of how you don't look at 886 00:50:28.030 --> 00:50:31.780 them as negatively anymore, cigaret companies I should say, because they're like 887 00:50:31.780 --> 00:50:33.820 because of the way they've been regulated. 888 00:50:33.820 --> 00:50:36.060 Yeah, they're like the only honest vice now. 889 00:50:36.100 --> 00:50:37.960 Like they're not lying to everybody. 890 00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:39.670 Yeah, we all know what they do. 891 00:50:39.700 --> 00:50:40.810 They don't lie anymore. 892 00:50:40.840 --> 00:50:41.740 They just like. 893 00:50:42.160 --> 00:50:43.660 Everybody else, is lying to us. 894 00:50:43.700 --> 00:50:44.260 Yeah, it's. 895 00:50:44.260 --> 00:50:45.790 Funny because companies, pharmaceutical companies. 896 00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:49.780 Media companies now, because they can be honest and say, Yeah, our products are going 897 00:50:49.780 --> 00:50:53.620 to kill you. And guess what? 20% of the population still still uses their product. 898 00:50:53.620 --> 00:50:55.090 Yeah. So there's no hiding. 899 00:50:55.090 --> 00:50:59.530 And my point is, so if we look at the psychological disruption that social media 900 00:50:59.530 --> 00:51:02.380 and the tech companies have brought us, that does affect us all. 901 00:51:02.380 --> 00:51:07.900 And if you look at food, that affects us all too, because we did a show, remember, $1 902 00:51:07.900 --> 00:51:10.120 trillion a year, the cost of obesity. 903 00:51:10.120 --> 00:51:11.530 Yeah. And all the related. 904 00:51:11.530 --> 00:51:12.970 It affects us on multiple levels. 905 00:51:12.970 --> 00:51:14.020 Yeah, multiple levels. 906 00:51:14.170 --> 00:51:17.380 And then things like your mood, your behavior, everything gets affected by what 907 00:51:17.380 --> 00:51:21.550 you eat. So I do think that that's where I was going to say just to finish off my rant 908 00:51:21.550 --> 00:51:23.800 is that's what it got me thinking. 909 00:51:23.800 --> 00:51:29.050 The bigger picture of is like, at what point does a society need to look at when industry 910 00:51:29.050 --> 00:51:34.390 like we did with tobacco, when industry is is making all this profit, but yet on the 911 00:51:34.390 --> 00:51:37.270 back of the people in the society and their health. 912 00:51:37.960 --> 00:51:40.300 And I think we did it with tobacco. 913 00:51:40.540 --> 00:51:42.610 I know food is much more complex. 914 00:51:42.610 --> 00:51:44.830 Tobacco is a one shiny object to go hit. 915 00:51:44.830 --> 00:51:48.490 And like you said, there's all kinds of stuff with food from GMOs to processed to 916 00:51:48.490 --> 00:51:49.990 refined sugar to salts. 917 00:51:50.020 --> 00:51:51.340 So I don't have an answer. 918 00:51:51.340 --> 00:51:55.660 But it's just the question came up in my mind like, okay, this food stuff is really 919 00:51:55.660 --> 00:51:57.250 hurting us. And at what point. 920 00:51:57.490 --> 00:52:02.290 Do we just not? The answer for you, though, and it's probably the same point that it hit 921 00:52:02.290 --> 00:52:06.880 for tobacco and you actually this is something you observe offline and online 922 00:52:06.880 --> 00:52:11.080 several times is it's going to be when the courts, when it's brought to the courts and 923 00:52:11.080 --> 00:52:15.940 the evidence comes in and the courts say you can't do this anymore because the courts are 924 00:52:15.940 --> 00:52:17.110 one of the few places. 925 00:52:17.110 --> 00:52:21.070 Not all the time, though, but where a lot of times the truth can come out. 926 00:52:21.070 --> 00:52:25.630 And like all the stuff you're saying behind closed doors, you and your company, all your 927 00:52:25.630 --> 00:52:28.630 stuff you're saying behind closed doors actually comes out in public and it's like, 928 00:52:28.630 --> 00:52:29.740 Oh, that's what you were doing. 929 00:52:29.740 --> 00:52:33.490 And so with the food, with like with the tobacco industry, it was those huge 930 00:52:33.490 --> 00:52:37.300 settlements, all that litigation that really led to the reform of how that industry 931 00:52:37.300 --> 00:52:41.940 worked. And it may end up having to happen with these other industries where, I mean, 932 00:52:42.190 --> 00:52:46.010 something's going to happen, but obviously a lot of bad things have to happen before, you 933 00:52:46.030 --> 00:52:46.540 know, the courts. 934 00:52:46.570 --> 00:52:49.390 Wouldn't that be cool if that happened to some cable news companies? 935 00:52:49.730 --> 00:52:53.050 I just I just want to I want to know if there's a lawsuit going on right now that 936 00:52:53.050 --> 00:52:55.630 could let us see what these people really say behind the scenes. 937 00:52:55.630 --> 00:52:56.050 Well, it depends. 938 00:52:56.050 --> 00:52:58.570 On what you watch. If you watch certain things, you won't hear anything about. 939 00:52:58.780 --> 00:52:59.920 So. All right. So. 940 00:52:59.920 --> 00:53:02.800 Well, but one thing I wanted to mention on this before we get out and I mean, this is 941 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:05.260 kind of the last thought I want to make because I found it to be interesting is one 942 00:53:05.260 --> 00:53:08.830 of the places we saw pushback in the discussion on this article and we'll have 943 00:53:08.830 --> 00:53:15.130 this in the show notes, but was from the meatless people were saying, oh, well, I 944 00:53:15.130 --> 00:53:19.300 don't know if the processed stuff is that bad because the thing about like a meatless 945 00:53:19.300 --> 00:53:23.170 burger is that it's highly, highly processed, you know, Now that's to 946 00:53:23.170 --> 00:53:28.210 distinguish from like vegetarian food, which is not trying to look like meat or be like 947 00:53:28.210 --> 00:53:31.340 meat, but like they're saying like the stuff where it's like, oh, this is, you know, 948 00:53:31.360 --> 00:53:35.140 ultimate sausage or I don't know if that's even the right one, but or like if that's the 949 00:53:35.140 --> 00:53:39.520 right brand, but just the people that are making things that look like meat and taste 950 00:53:39.520 --> 00:53:44.170 like meat, supposedly impossible, like and so it's like but they were pushing back like, 951 00:53:44.170 --> 00:53:47.230 oh, no, I don't know if processed food is that bad, you know, yada, yada, yada, because 952 00:53:47.230 --> 00:53:48.820 they're selling. And they were they. 953 00:53:48.820 --> 00:53:52.610 Were leaning into it by now advertising that they're ultra processed or something. 954 00:53:52.630 --> 00:53:54.010 Like they were just saying, you know what? 955 00:53:54.010 --> 00:53:55.090 Then let's just own this. 956 00:53:55.090 --> 00:53:57.100 And so so let's see how that works out for them. 957 00:53:57.520 --> 00:54:02.690 But the thing about that to me that was very interesting is that now I would not push back 958 00:54:02.690 --> 00:54:06.110 on or combat. Like I think that there's more to the picture than just saying, Oh, I just 959 00:54:06.110 --> 00:54:07.760 won't eat meat or I'll just, you know, vegan vegetarian. 960 00:54:08.150 --> 00:54:11.750 I think there's there is some merit there, but I think there's more to the picture going 961 00:54:11.750 --> 00:54:19.820 on. But ultimately, the idea that meatless and then doing these highly processed things 962 00:54:19.820 --> 00:54:24.290 can be a positive approach reminds me of like the margarine debate when people were 963 00:54:24.290 --> 00:54:29.150 like, hey, you know, butter is bad, so let's create some process thing that's just like 964 00:54:29.150 --> 00:54:30.830 butter, but it's not butter. 965 00:54:30.830 --> 00:54:33.680 And then lo and behold, we found out margarine was made of trans fat. 966 00:54:33.680 --> 00:54:35.090 That gave everybody a heart attack. 967 00:54:35.090 --> 00:54:40.910 And so it's like, I wonder if trying to trying to kind of work around some natural 968 00:54:40.910 --> 00:54:45.280 thing and say, hey, instead of let's just make let's let's have our butter be healthier 969 00:54:45.280 --> 00:54:46.520 or butter, let's make sure the cows were healthy. 970 00:54:47.060 --> 00:54:51.080 Let's make sure that the way it's handled is something that's not going to cause problems 971 00:54:51.080 --> 00:54:54.800 with it. Let's just create something in a lab and it's like, well, hey, instead of 972 00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:58.130 again, instead of with the meat, let's let's have healthy animals that we eat. 973 00:54:58.130 --> 00:55:02.540 Let's make sure that we don't just jam them full of antibiotics and hormones and then put 974 00:55:02.540 --> 00:55:06.230 them on our plate. And instead of doing that, it's like, Hey, let's super process 975 00:55:06.230 --> 00:55:09.140 some kind of thing to solve the problem, to do what we think is solving the problem. 976 00:55:09.140 --> 00:55:12.650 So it's just something got my eye on because I just found it to be interesting that they 977 00:55:12.650 --> 00:55:13.490 were the same thing. 978 00:55:13.490 --> 00:55:14.750 I thought, dude, exactly. 979 00:55:14.750 --> 00:55:18.920 Margarine and butter. The other one I thought of was cigaret smoking versus vaping 980 00:55:19.310 --> 00:55:22.640 because I felt the same way the first time I ever tried a vape thing. 981 00:55:22.640 --> 00:55:26.870 I could feel it was unnatural the way it was hitting my lung and I just thought, you know, 982 00:55:26.870 --> 00:55:30.020 I know smoking a cigaret oh yeah, yeah. 983 00:55:30.020 --> 00:55:33.890 It was like, okay, I know smoking cigarets are bad, but human beings have been smoking 984 00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:38.510 tobacco now for thousands of years, so the body is kind of used to taking in at least a 985 00:55:38.510 --> 00:55:39.530 natural carcinogen. 986 00:55:39.740 --> 00:55:42.740 Seems you understand kind of the risk profile, correct? 987 00:55:42.740 --> 00:55:46.040 You don't understand the risk profile when it's something that's been created from 988 00:55:46.040 --> 00:55:47.750 scratch, correct? Two years ago. 989 00:55:47.750 --> 00:55:48.350 Exactly. 990 00:55:48.350 --> 00:55:52.250 And so that's what I'm saying, is that it's a good point you make about the margarine and 991 00:55:52.250 --> 00:55:54.590 butter. And that's one thing I wanted to say before we get out of here. 992 00:55:54.590 --> 00:55:59.720 I think, again, just like what happened with when I read the excerpt in the last part out 993 00:55:59.720 --> 00:56:05.690 of the from The Federalist about the virology lab and the Congress, I think a lot 994 00:56:05.690 --> 00:56:09.590 of people to everybody wants to always go to the. 995 00:56:11.210 --> 00:56:13.610 Like the paranoid answer or explanation first. 996 00:56:14.270 --> 00:56:17.810 Excellent. And a lot of people say things about processed food. 997 00:56:17.810 --> 00:56:21.350 Oh, it's just a big industry and it's just, you know, processed food is something that 998 00:56:21.350 --> 00:56:23.150 developed after the Second World War. 999 00:56:23.180 --> 00:56:28.340 More so because you had for the first time in our country's history, like big suburbs 1000 00:56:28.340 --> 00:56:33.020 being created and you had not just processed food, you had processed neighborhoods. 1001 00:56:33.020 --> 00:56:34.670 Right? You had manufactured homes. 1002 00:56:34.670 --> 00:56:35.990 You had all this kind of stuff. 1003 00:56:35.990 --> 00:56:41.780 And it's for the first time you had more Americans beginning to live in cities and not 1004 00:56:41.780 --> 00:56:47.300 in farms. And so you had to have an ability to have food, get from a farm that might have 1005 00:56:47.300 --> 00:56:51.080 been somewhere in the Midwest or California, let's say, out to the East Coast. 1006 00:56:51.080 --> 00:56:55.160 And to be able to sit on a shelf long enough to not go bad so people didn't get sick 1007 00:56:55.160 --> 00:56:56.800 eating food and that they could. 1008 00:56:56.810 --> 00:56:58.310 So that's what I'm saying. 1009 00:56:58.310 --> 00:57:01.790 Like part of this is we're probably going to have to always have some sort of processed 1010 00:57:01.790 --> 00:57:04.550 food if we're going to have 8 billion people plus in the world. 1011 00:57:04.550 --> 00:57:05.900 Well, yeah, because we don't have enough. 1012 00:57:05.900 --> 00:57:06.500 Question about that. 1013 00:57:06.500 --> 00:57:09.080 We don't have enough farm land to feed all these people. 1014 00:57:09.080 --> 00:57:14.280 So I think part of this, instead of always us getting this either or and always getting 1015 00:57:14.280 --> 00:57:18.150 in these fights about, oh, it's got to be this or that, and it's a big, big industry 1016 00:57:18.150 --> 00:57:19.290 versus us and all this. 1017 00:57:19.320 --> 00:57:21.630 It's okay. Big industry makes money. 1018 00:57:21.630 --> 00:57:23.280 We know that big industry wants to sell stuff. 1019 00:57:23.520 --> 00:57:28.470 So I do think just like tobacco, there should be regulations so that big industry 1020 00:57:28.470 --> 00:57:30.300 can allow people to hurt themselves. 1021 00:57:30.300 --> 00:57:35.250 But I also think that we shouldn't act like just because something is processed means 1022 00:57:35.250 --> 00:57:36.600 it's sinister or criminal. 1023 00:57:36.650 --> 00:57:39.210 We should say and I'm not saying you're saying that. 1024 00:57:39.210 --> 00:57:43.320 I'm just saying that we should as a society say, how can we do better at processing food. 1025 00:57:43.320 --> 00:57:44.340 Managing the risk? 1026 00:57:44.370 --> 00:57:48.480 You know, and that's I think you're wise to point out how it didn't start out as some 1027 00:57:48.480 --> 00:57:51.990 sinister thing. And because that's yeah, people do tend to if you take a 1028 00:57:52.020 --> 00:57:56.100 anti-something approach, then it immediately jumps to that. 1029 00:57:56.100 --> 00:57:59.580 It's like a movie. It's like, Oh, then this must be some sinister villain. 1030 00:57:59.580 --> 00:58:01.910 Some guy in a corner with a cigaret smoking. 1031 00:58:02.010 --> 00:58:07.110 A lot of times things just kind of like they start out as, Oh hey, gain of function. 1032 00:58:07.110 --> 00:58:10.170 Hey, let's we can do, we can do this stuff that'll solve all these problems. 1033 00:58:10.170 --> 00:58:15.120 But if risk isn't managed at each step and a lot of times if you just let market forces 1034 00:58:15.120 --> 00:58:17.250 take over, then things will be taken to the extreme. 1035 00:58:18.000 --> 00:58:21.720 And it's those extremes where we have to watch out for these negative consequences. 1036 00:58:21.810 --> 00:58:26.250 And then the key piece, we have to be honest about what's happening. 1037 00:58:26.250 --> 00:58:28.680 And that's where that's where we see tobacco's at now. 1038 00:58:28.680 --> 00:58:31.530 And hopefully we can get some of these other industries there as well, where it's like, 1039 00:58:31.530 --> 00:58:32.990 look, no, I'm not one. 1040 00:58:33.030 --> 00:58:36.510 I'm one that likes incentive altering incentive structures more than regulation 1041 00:58:36.510 --> 00:58:37.860 personally when it's possible. 1042 00:58:37.860 --> 00:58:41.940 But ultimately, we have to be we have to have an honest appraisal of what's happening 1043 00:58:41.940 --> 00:58:44.820 and then how this stuff is affecting us for us to be able to move on it. 1044 00:58:44.820 --> 00:58:46.290 So, no, you're right. 1045 00:58:46.290 --> 00:58:51.990 And I was just going to say this between the vaping and the the other one we mentioned, 1046 00:58:52.020 --> 00:58:53.100 it's the same with those. 1047 00:58:53.100 --> 00:58:56.460 I don't think that they were sinister, like beyond meat stuff, you know. 1048 00:58:56.460 --> 00:58:57.010 Yeah. Yeah. 1049 00:58:57.030 --> 00:58:57.570 They both of course. 1050 00:58:57.630 --> 00:58:59.900 Were created for genuine good people. 1051 00:58:59.900 --> 00:59:01.530 To try to solve a problem. Solve a problem. 1052 00:59:01.530 --> 00:59:05.190 Right. And maybe that might be an intermediary step to solving some problems. 1053 00:59:05.240 --> 00:59:08.760 You know, who knows? And so but either way, I think we can close it up from there. 1054 00:59:08.790 --> 00:59:10.200 We appreciate anybody for joining us on this episode. 1055 00:59:10.440 --> 00:59:14.160 We'll call it like I see it. Subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what 1056 00:59:14.160 --> 00:59:15.420 you think. Send it to a friend. 1057 00:59:15.420 --> 00:59:17.010 Until next time, I'm James Keys. 1058 00:59:17.010 --> 00:59:18.000 I'm Tunde Ogunlana. 1059 00:59:18.510 --> 00:59:19.680 All right. We'll talk to you next time.