Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hello.
Welcome to the call. Like I see a podcast.
I'm James Keyes, and in this episode, we're going to discuss anger and how it can take over our brains and how this phenomenon can make us all susceptible to being taken advantage of by someone else for someone else's economic or political or personal gain.
And later on, we're going to react to the recent arrest of a suspect for the 1996 murder of rapper Tupac Shakur. And take a look at the circumstances of the arrest, especially considering how long ago the murder was.
Joining me today is a man who likes to have all eyes on him. Tunde Ogun. Lana Tunde. You plan to let the people picture you rolling today?
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Of course. I wish I still had a 500 Benz.
[00:01:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah, that'd be even better for the audience.
[00:01:11] Speaker B: You gotta know the song to know that joke.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: Now, we're recording this on October 3, 2023, and many of us have seen reports suggesting that Americans are angrier than ever. So we wanted to look today at just how anger affects how humans operate more broadly and consider the implications, or the potential implications in America, of an overly angry society.
On this point, there was a recent article in the Washington Post by doctor Christopher Miller, and he really got into the different ways anger affects us. And he got into it from a physiological standpoint, psychological. He broke it down like a doctor would. But there's a lot you can take from that and extrapolate and beyond just starting there, Tunde, you know, what stood out to you in this article, you know, entitled the articles entitled anger overwhelms our thinking brain. Here's how to bring it back online. And also, it's discussion on how anger actually affects one's ability to think.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I think if you ask my kids anytime I've gotten mad, especially when they were young, that they'll. They'll attest to the fact that dad probably wasn't thinking that much while he was in his rant.
No. And I think that's why this is a very interesting topic, because anger is a natural part of the human spectrum of emotions. I mean, 100% of human experience. Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. 100% of human beings that have lived past maybe their first year of birth have experienced anger. And I'm sure that infants experience anger, too. That's why they're wailing when their diapers full or they're hungry. Right? So it's just one of those things that we all live with, anger. We've all been angry. We've all known people that have been angry around us. So it's just like any other human emotion. There's a spectrum of it, and there's kind of, I think, the normal.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: Part.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Of the spectrum that we've all experienced or watched others experience. And then there is the maybe hyper and extreme forms of anger, which can be damaging both internally, which we'll discuss today from a physiological standpoint, so on and so forth. Stress hormones and all that, when secreted too long, can lead to actual physical adverse effects. And then I think more like anything else, right, if there's something that's affecting an individual, if there are enough individuals who are suffering from extreme or hyper forms of anger on the spectrum, then we know it can have adverse effects on how we all deal with each other in society. So, yeah, that's why I found the article very interesting as well, and breaking down all those different factors.
[00:03:50] Speaker A: Yeah. The piece that really piqued my interest was this, subheading anger leads us to act first rather than think first. And it gets into how, you know, like there is, from an evolutionary standpoint, a reason for that. You know, like that, like you're, you're in when your body's in an angry state, then it, you may need to be able to not sit there and calculate what needs to happen here, but to actually do something just in a way that your hormones are interacting at that time. Because at that moment, there may be a something that need, you need to act about and not necessarily think about. There may need to be, you know, we've heard fight and flight, you know, reactions and so forth. So to me, what, where this really, where the rubber really meets the road on this is that when you look at anger and it's, you know, like it's natural role, but then you put it in a modern context, like we're not out in the, in the open battling other predators for, you know, meals, you know, like, that's not what we're doing. We're operating in relatively ordered societies and orderly societies. And so our experience with anger isn't over things all the time that are fight or flight necessarily from a survival standpoint. Like our anger will come from somebody cutting us off in traffic, which in the grand scheme of things isn't something that is like, oh, you better think first and you, you're like, or, excuse me, you better act first because, you know, like, you're not going to survive. If that doesn't happen, you just slow down and it's, Nate, ultimately, it's not a huge deal in your life, but it makes us mad. And it makes us, you know, we lean on the horn and, you know, run up on somebody's back and, you know, like, so how that, how all of these kind of natural phenomenon affect us as we interact, particularly in, you know, urban or, you know, suburban, like just around. A lot of other people to me, is very different than how you could imagine these things playing out in a more, in a, in an older time, at a more evolutionary time, a time when people didn't live so close together. You weren't interacting with so many people who were doing so many different things at all the time.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an interesting point because anyone that's watched, let's say, a documentary about, you know, chimpanzees or gorillas, you know, how they interact in their own societies, you're right, there's a lot of displays of anger and emotion, but it's, it's kind of, it doesn't progress from that level. That's why obviously, they're not human beings with our level of intelligence. And same thing with other, I would say, kind of advanced mammals like, you know, domesticated dogs. You know, for anyone that's a dog owner, you've, we all know the difference. When a dog is in a stressful and kind of mood, it's a dog you don't want to be around. You know, there's no, there's no kind of reasoning with it and getting it to calm down versus when it's nothing. In an aggressive or angry mood, it can be a very friendly, friendly companion and animal. So I think you're right.
[00:06:40] Speaker A: It's responding to cues. You know, it's like, okay, this is, the dog might interpret whatever's happening, you know, somebody knocking at the door, you know, like, again, that may not be something that inflames us, but as a potential threat, you know, so there's an anger that arise that gets, gets them, you know, the hair standing up or whatever. And you can see the purpose of that, you know. But again, like, it's, we experience anger on so many other way, in so many other ways beyond just this threatening kind of way or this someone, someone did something to you that is actually going to cause you harm or potentially to really cause you harm.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think the difference there, as you say it, is we have evolved as humans into a way that we have this other layers of our intelligence and the way we communicate in our emotional states. And then also, like you just said, we've got 8 billion of us on the earth and we've organized ourselves into large societies where we tend to believe that we want to coexist. So if you have a certain population, a large population that's expanding, that is feeling these feelings of anger, like you said about things like acting first before thinking, and let's get into a little bit about the brain, because I think part of this is what I realized in preparing for today is it's very important to understand how our own bodies work, to then understand, you know, kind of, you know, why we, we manifest these behaviors and then also, is there a remedy for it? Right. So I think kind of like, we've talked a lot in our, in our discussions over the years about things like exercise, working out, and kind of physical health. And I think it's the same thing. A lot of us over the last few decades have learned a lot about the internal body, what to eat, salt, sugars, all that, and how it affects our bodies and how we feel, which.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: Is an ongoing development, so to speak. Like, yeah, and that's, that's, that's science in the truest sense. And that, you know, it's the best understanding at a given moment, and that's not necessarily the end of the road, and that's all we'll ever know. Like, these things do evolve over time, and they're influenced by different things that aren't always in our best interest. Like, you know, people trying to make money and all this other stuff as far as how what we learn is accurate versus not accurate.
[00:08:50] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the same transition now to kind of the mental health side of things, you know, like, and it's a good point you make. Like, in our physical health, you know, we've learned that, hey, you know, cigarette companies will sell us tobacco filled cigarettes of smoke and it will damage our body.
[00:09:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: There's a profit motive for that, you know, for that.
[00:09:07] Speaker A: So tell us it's all good or the sugar, I think sugar is a great example. Sugar, the trans fats, you know, like, oh, yeah, this is healthier than, you know, like the, what you were doing before and. Oh, well, actually it's not, you know, but they were making money by telling us it's healthier, so.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:09:20] Speaker A: I mean, more so.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. We're learning as society.
[00:09:24] Speaker A: Everything we find out or everything we learn at any given moment isn't always going to be like 100. This is, these aren't laws of nature, laws of physics, so to speak. We're like, we're learning and it continues to evolve. What was common knowledge, so to speak, when we were like in the eighties when we were younger, some of that is looked at as, like, ridiculously wrong now, you know, and presumably that there'll be things now that are being done that we'll look at in 30 years and be like, oh, yeah, we savages. Primitive, you know, so to speak.
[00:09:54] Speaker B: I don't know. We might not say that in 30 years, maybe 300 years.
No, but I think it's a great analogy because just like you're rightfully saying, in the last few decades, we've learned a lot more about nutrition and our physical health and how all this different things we put in our body affects those outcomes. We have now been learning in the more recent period, I'd say the last 1020 years, more so of the mental health effects of how we deal with each other in our society. And I don't mean each other like me and you as neighbors, let's say. I mean more as, you know, how the tv, the Internet, social media, all that, how we internalize that and then how that manifests itself in certain physical responses that are real, just like the health side. Eating, putting food in our mouth can manifest itself in diabetes, heart disease, other physical manifestations. So, like when you do it or.
[00:10:51] Speaker A: What you put in, you know, things like that.
[00:10:53] Speaker B: Exactly. So I want to jump on here because I think, you know, I want to pass it back to you after I open it up here, really, on the brain chemistry. So the article focuses on two specific areas. First, the amygdala, which encodes the quality, such as positive or negative feelings, and intensity of our emotional reactions. And then the second kind of physical part of the brain is the insula, which creates a brain map of how our body feels during situations, including what we call the gut feeling. So I found that interesting because, again, I think all of us have felt that certain gut feeling about things. You know, I want to pass it back to you to kind of go from there in terms of. From understanding those, then where it kind of takes us next.
[00:11:36] Speaker A: Well, I mean, yeah. Cause what's pointed out is that those are the areas that fire, that could fire too much when we're angry, you know, like. And so what happens is, you know, the intensity of our emotional reactions, you know, our gut feelings, these types of things become more intense in terms of the feeling. And I agree with you that it's important to kind of understand, at least not for necessarily everyone, but just as a society, to kind of understand what's happening here. There's a big difference in understanding in your body that something happens. You have stimulus and then you have effect versus why it happens. And so a lot of times, even to this day, and you look at the highest levels of science, we can identify when you do this, this happens in your body, but they don't always 100% know all of the reasons why, because everything is so interconnected. So what we're looking at a lot of these times, if we can understand cause and effect, then what we can do is we can affect our behaviors and or our actions to try to gen to try to avoid overly negative effects and try to promote positive effects, even if we don't know why. Like, the whys come later. And that eventually allows you to manipulate things on a higher level, but that's not necessary to just say, hey, if I eat sugar, my insulin goes up. And if I do that too often, then I might end up pre diabetic or diabetes. You don't really have to know all of the mechanisms behind that in order to modify your behavior in order to make yourself less susceptible to diabetes. And so in the same sense here, when you're saying, okay, the anger, where that ultimately goes is that the anger turns off the thinking in large part, you know, simplifying. It turns off the thinking parts of your brain and turns on the emotional parts of your brain. And so what that when that happens, basically, you can potentially become more susceptible, like I pointed out in the intro to manipulation, because you're no longer able to see kind of different levels of how someone may be interacting with you or what they may be telling you or what they may be having you do for them and all that kind of stuff. And so, to me, that the fascinating part of the anger really gets into not necessarily us dealing with ourselves, but us dealing in a society. Because if, yes, if you can trigger someone to be angry intentionally, then you can. It's like you can go up to that person and on the back of their head, flip a switch that turns off, turns off their ability to think. And you can do that intentionally. And so we see that in various ways in society. And so what I want to ask you, and then we'll get into, I want to get into the question of it and the why of it, is, do you think it's possible like that? Because you always have to hesitate to say, oh, some blank is the worst ever, or this is as much as it's ever been because people have been around for a while, and people have been in societies for a while. So you stand things. This is the most ever. You got to be careful. But do you think it's possible because we've seen headlines, we've seen articles, people are angrier than ever, yada, yada, yada. You know, do you think it's possible that people are by and large, or even relatively consistently angrier these days than in days past? Or do you think it's just a perception because, you know, we're able to perceive more for sure these days than we have in the past, and then, and either way, how do you think this affects the society?
[00:14:38] Speaker B: Um, good question. So I think that probably it's, it's a little bit of both in terms of is it more, and do we perceive it to be more because we just see more stuff, you know, like with social media. I mean, I think I'll pick up my phone here. I mean, we, I still think we don't appreciate as humanity that just since 2008 or 2010, roughly when the iPhone and the smartphones really started coming out, that we now have constantly this stuff literally in our face. There's no, just like, you know, again, like you mentioned the 1980s, nineties, when we were younger, you could literally go turn off your tv and then your house was silent. Right. There was no Internet, no, no cell phones, all that. So this is still a very new phenomenon for all of us, coexisting of, we're just constantly on, right. And there's constantly stimulation that's coming at us. And so it's a very good point you make about like a switch in the brain, because it's kind of like, just like, and let's go with the analogy of food again, just like certain food companies or the tobacco industry back in the fifties and sixties figured out how to put certain chemicals either in the cigarette or McDonald's, figured out how to put certain trans fats in the levels of salt to make us more addicted. Right. To that switch.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: That's a science they had the smartest people in the room working on, how can we make it so once they have one fry, they can't stop, which.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I can't stop drinking fries or sodas. And then it manifested itself in poor health for Americans and more obesity and all that. And I think the same thing. We just lived through it without realizing it. In the last decade or so. Like I mentioned, the big tech firms like meta and, you know, Google and all them, and not to pick on them, but just, they're the big players. They figured out how to that switch in our head with anger, because what have we generally learned in the last, you know, five, seven years about social media is they figured out that conflict creates a tension.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: And that's what Fox News figured out. And then MSNBC tried to follow up. And it's this idea of keeping your audience in this constant state of suspense. Plus, fear.
And fear leads to anger. Yeah. And so.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Yeah, there you go. Yoda. Hey.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Hey.
Don't get me started. I got something for you later. We're not there yet, so. But I wanted to give you some stats, because the reason why I said, to answer your question that I think it's a bit of both, is because I do think, obviously, from what I just said with the phone example, this stuff is in our face more. So I think that can't be ignored. But there is some, like, actual data. So Gallup has taken these kind of polls around the world. It's interesting. It's a world poll, so it's not just the United States. So the question they asked people in 140 questions, did you experience anger during a lot of the day yesterday?
So I wouldn't say that's a perfect question, because someone could have just had a really bad day yesterday. Maybe they're not generally the goal being.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: To ask a lot of people and you balance out.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. It could just be they had a bad luck of just picking a day when most of humanity was angry. But. But they. But the numbers do. On a serious note. I mean, in 2018.
Sorry, 2014, the number was 18% of adults that respond. Out of 140 countries, we only have 185 countries. That's the majority of the countries in the world. In 2021, that number had jumped up to 23%. And I thought about it like, that's almost a quarter of adult human beings polled in the world saying that they were angry the day before. A lot of anger. Like, not just a little bit of. So that is, like, you know, again, that.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: And more importantly, that's. That's a jump from, you know, like, the time before. Now, granted, 2021 is Covid time, you know, so that maybe that has something to do with it as well.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: It could, but, I mean, it could, but think about it. If a quarter of adults in the majority of countries in the world said they had a lot of anger the day before, one quarter out of a population is a lot of a popular, meaning they're touching other people. Out of that, 75% who are also somewhat gonna be affected by those moods.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: And all that anger tends to have a transitive property. Me being angry and acting angry tends to make somebody else around me.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: Yeah, unless I'm in solitary confinement. But that's not going to be the majority of people. So I found that interesting. Just to finish that, they said that the most anger was found in the following countries. Lebanon, Turkey, Armenia, Iraq, and Afghanistan.
So I might cross those off my bucket list for the next family trip. And the ones with the least anger were Finland, Mauritius, Estonia, Portugal, and the Netherlands. So Portugal has been on my list. So now it's got a little bump up to. I got to get there a little quicker than I thought.
[00:19:22] Speaker A: I mean, you said Portugal in the Netherlands. Netherlands. I'm like, man, maybe drugs have something to do like that.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. Amsterdam's in the Netherlands, so I gotta be second on the list. So, yeah, let's keep it moving, though, then. I gotta explain that one. So I gotta go back to Star wars.
[00:19:37] Speaker A: People are better at managing their anger or have tools to manage their anger, you know, in those places. But, no, I don't know about that. But, no, I mean, I would think that people are angry. I would think so. And it's the reason you said, it's that the ways to get angry. You have more ways of getting angry now than you did in the past. You know, like, if you go pre mass media, for you to get angry, somebody in your immediate vicinity had to do something to you, you know, or you had to observe something in your immediate vicinity. It wasn't gonna be something that happened three states away that has you fired up or whatever, you know? And if you go. You know, if you go even to mass media, then there's more engagement, so to speak, and more interaction amongst people where things that are happening that are remote to you can get you angry, but still, like, there's a big jump, as you point out, when you start talking about the Internet and then particularly the Internet, once on phones, on. On mobile devices that we carry with us, because that's stimulating us all the time. And as you pointed out, this isn't just social media. This is just media in general has recognized, and we'll have some stuff in the show notes on this that. And it's not some. They didn't unlock the, you know, the secret of all secrets, but they've just recognized and gotten good at using anger to increase engagement. So for their own profitability.
[00:20:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:54] Speaker A: You know, so. Because as we talked about with the food companies, their profit motive was to design products that made us addicted. That may be in a ways that may be bad for our health, but are good for their balance sheet. In the same ways, we can look at media companies and say that they've devised products which they, you know, the products they provide is. Is content, media, engagement and so forth. News media. And we see this in particular in social media. They've devised and many of them have geared their offerings in ways that promote anger because that will increase their engagement and thus increase their profits. And then it's long been known, um, that politicians can derive power from. From harness, from. From fomenting and then harnessing anger. And so even if that itself is static, you know, then, then once you get into a land of mass media, you go back 100 years, then that's going to grow, you know, and you can look at World War two in areas where anger was fomented in many places to create, you know, these movements, to say, hey, let's just take over all the other countries in the world or whatever. And then now you have the mass media and you have social media, again, where it's like politicians have an act. So you have companies, mass media companies, news media, whatever, social media that have a vested interest in making you mad in order for their own profitability. And then you have politicians that want to make you mad. And then also leverage the tools in the media and the news media and the social media whatever, to make you madden for all of those reasons. It stands to reason that the circumstances are sufficiently different that, yes, people are likely to be more angry now because there's just more of a chance to get mad about stuff. And that's not even that. Then you can get into just more population density gives you more opportunity to be angry. You know, it's not substantially different than it was 50 years ago. But again, if you, if you live in a county with only, you know, 100 people, you don't spend time in traffic jams. You don't spend time, you know, with a people cutting you off in traffic or, you know, somebody taking the last apple from the shelf at the grocery store or whatever. So things, little things that might get you mad or whatever. So, yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's definitely. And then, yes, it being in our face, as you pointed out, it's something also that would. Because anger can be transitive, you know, meaning you see other angry people, they treat other people poorly. That can. That can also promote more anger as well.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think you're right, because one of the kind of next phase, you know, that the article discusses is stress related anger.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: And that's why when you said about sitting in traffic, it kind of stuck my brain that. Yeah, that's, that's also part of the issue is that we have now the phone stressing us out, meaning the information that's constantly coming at us that may not have been as robust just 15 plus years ago in human society.
And then on top of that, we got the, you know, those of us in, let's say, metropolitan area cities. Like you're saying that, which is a lot of the world. I think in the last decade, the world, for the first time, the entire planet had more people living in cities than in rural areas. So for the first time in human history. So things like traffic, like being around grumpy people, all that has an effect on us. And what happens, and the article gets into it, that stress is kind of a condition that releases a chemical called, and I'm going to botch this norepinephrine, actually, I didn't watch it that bad.
And it's, and it's, and it's basically, it's closely related to adrenaline. So we all can kind of relate to that. The feeling of when you're hiding on adrenaline and you start feeling like, you know.
[00:24:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that's that. Fight or flight.
[00:24:34] Speaker B: Yeah. You got to move, right? Something's going to happen. And so what, what happens is it stops.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: These are normal, by the way, normal hormones that do jobs and stuff like that. And the issue is when they get heightened beyond the normal threshold that our body uses them in to manipulate our emotions. Just in regular course.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And so the thing is, and to your point, they're important in very short bursts, like when you got to run away from a lion.
But what happens is, or even if.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: You'Re about to lift some weights, you know, or whatever.
[00:25:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Any of that. But, but the thing is, is that because of the way we have stress constantly on us, and like you said, traffic's a great example because it's not a something that is malicious or kind of threatening in a certain way, but it just part of our lives that just could become stressful if you're just stuck in too much traffic, we all can experience that. So what happens is when too much adrenaline is secreted, again, just like the fight or flight response, it turns off the thinking part of our brain. Because if I'm trying to run for the lion or if I'm in a fist fight, maybe a better example, if someone mugged me or jumped me on the street, my brain does for me to survive, it doesn't have time to think about if I just punch the guy in the face and, like, how he feels. Right. I can't be empathetic at that moment and say, hey, man, you know, oh, man, I'm sorry. I just knocked out.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: Did I pay the mortgage? Do I need to stop? Worried about random things?
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Exactly. Sorry, dude, I knocked your teeth out. I didn't mean to, but you jumped me. So let me explain why that was wrong. You don't have time for all that. You got to punch the guy in the face and run away, right? Get yourself some space from that danger again. If you're driven to those kind of adrenaline and those kind of chemicals are secreted now regularly, it's going to suppress your ability to rationalize and think and have empathy with someone else and maybe hear someone else's side and you're just going to act. And that leads to your point about acting first.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: And I think about that if you look at it from a traffic standpoint, imagine starting your day and ending your day every day with like that. Like, hey, I'm gonna start my day, put myself in a stressful situation, and I'm gonna end my day, my work part of my day, and put myself.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: In a stress, you know, it's a great example of that. Cause I can relate to that. I mean, there was a time before the beauty of zoom where I had to drive a lot more. I mean, I was probably putting on 2000 miles a month, you know, up and down the road. And I think this is a classic. Any kind of person that's corporate. And if the spouse is nothing, classic example of LiKe you're saying I'm sitting there driving 2 hours in traffic stop and go, KinD of stressed out, and I get home and what does my wife want to do? First thing SHe wants to do, talk about my day. Yeah, she's happy to see me, right? It's like, and then what am I? I'm grouchy. Oh, my God, scooter. You know that. And what happens is, and that's what I'm saying, that creates, again, that's, again, neither of us are being malicious, right. But because of the situation of the modern society, it creates more stress. And again, unless a lot of times, unless you're, you know, both of you have the ability to figure out how to navigate that that can lead to more stress because now, you know, your spouses are fighting, and then the next thing you know, maybe the relationship's going on the rails. And so there's this kind of catch.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Well, all of this, as we talked about before, it begins with your brain being turned off, so to speak, your thinking being turned off when you get home. And then that can transfer to her because you react in a way to something harmless, that it's because you were coming from a stressful situation or you had that built up in you. So it's. Yeah, it can. It can.
[00:28:00] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Cause I'm not being thinking, well, she's been home all day and hasn't seen me. And of course she wants to see me and find out how my day is. I'm not. I'm like, man, I don't want to talk. Yeah.
[00:28:10] Speaker A: So, I mean. And again, like, that's not something that's necessarily new to the 2010s or the 2020s. But again, it's the whole stew of things. Because then, you know, again, you add in the other that the things that are relatively new as far as the way that we're stimulated with more anger, so to speak. Because people want to. They want to get their hands in us. In terms of whether, again, politics, sometimes it can be personal relationships as well. Like, there's many of documented instances and just kind of instances that you see with friends or loved ones where there's people have relationships where there's a person who could be more manipulative by using anger as a trigger. You know, like, so to speak. So we deal with. This is something that just as long as there's more than one person, as long as there are people out there, we're gonna have anger. We're gonna have.
[00:28:57] Speaker B: We gotta go back to Adam.
Not even. Not even Eve.
[00:29:00] Speaker A: Adam with all of his roots. Right?
[00:29:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Cause Eve created stress. She made him bite the apple. Right. And so then it all screwed it up. So it's like. It's like the singularity. Like how the universe expanded from that one point now. And it's like, we gotta go back now just to Adam.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: Well, yeah, the singularity was much more simple than everything that came after that. But no, I mean, it's one of those things, though, that as we put more, so to speak, as we heat more and more and more helpings of these potential triggers for anger. And again, which in some of these cases, people have an active incentive to do so for their own personal benefit. And to your own. Yeah. To your own detriment and to your. Their benefit makes you more manipulable and everything like that, then this is something we're gonna have to deal with. So. Well, tell me this.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Hold on, man. Cause you've made up something very profound statement that I wanna add just as you finish that thought. Because, um. You got it. No, because you said. I wrote it down. Things remote. Cause anger. And I think. Yeah, I want to finish off just this part of it, as you were talking on that, because as we throw in, like we just said, are a lot of us in our society today are real life stuff, like sitting in traffic or, you know, having a beef with your spouse, whatever the case is, again, because this is right here, it can trigger us by reminding us that a lot of other things that are way outside of our normal sphere of life. Again, 30, 40 years ago, we might not have seen every day, you might have watched, you know, the Sunday news and seen something about, let's say, unless you live right there in this area, right? We're in Florida. So I think 50 years ago, I wouldn't have heard every single day about the southern border, for example. Right? But today I do. So I could have just got home from bad traffic and all that, and then see a video of people creeping through some fence on the border. And that triggers me again, like, man, this sucks. Da da da.
[00:30:49] Speaker A: Well, and remember, the way it works is you would only see that video most likely if you were the kind of person that would be triggered into anger from that. So it's even targeted towards you. So, yeah, the algorithm, you might see something. Yeah, you might see something that would make you particularly angry.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: You know, like, you know what? My famous story that I've shared many times on this podcast in different points, is why I got off social media. Because the algorithm started feeding me images of cops beating up black people or killing them. And that started like it was just.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: Looping that for you all.
[00:31:20] Speaker B: And that started affecting me how? In the same order. Right. Fear, first, because you're scared for your own well being, which then leads to anger, because you feel like, you know, this sucks, and, you know, what's society doing about it? Which then can lead to apathy. But as I saw myself making those changes, I did what I thought was a responsible thing to do, was disengage from that stuff, which meant well, but.
[00:31:39] Speaker A: Let me specify on this, because it's very important. Like, it's not that this is something if. That if it would be happening. You're saying you didn't want to know, but what was happening is that it was being put in your face constantly. And so, because it was. See, that the algorithm recognized that it was getting a rise out of you because of it, so it was being put in your face constantly, and so that was affecting you in ways not just. Okay, let me see what happened today. Okay, that's messed up. Let's. Let's keep an eye on that, make sure that there's accountability there, it's being shown on loop in a way to trigger your anger because, you know, again, for most people, that is how that they're going to then respond with engagement, which is what the algorithm is trying to promote. And I think on this, I mean, like, yes, I'm glad you brought that back because, and I want to keep moving, but what it is a lot of times, and this isn't that, you know, what I'm about to say, but what we also see is that people are angrier about more abstract things as well. You know, like, and so, yes, like, physical harm coming to a fellow member of society is not abstract. That's real. That's something that most people want to be aware of, you know, and so forth. And then we would like, ideally in a society like ours, which values justice and values rule of law, we would like people to have accountability if they are causing harm to another person. And it's not, you know, there's no, there's no justification, so to speak, or there's no overwhelming justification. But a lot of times people are like, I remember with the, like, in the last couple of years, we've seen constant news reports talking about, like, recession come in, 100% chance of recession, kind of like all of these things that are, again, fear, anger, things like that. And these reports are essentially trying to get us more matter, angry about more and more abstract things as well. Things that may not even happen. You know, it's just, oh, there's a possibility happen or stuff, stuff like this. And so if you put that again into this stew where it's like, man, you got real life stuff going on, and then things that are remote from your life or things that are just abstract, like concepts and stuff, and you're getting mad about that, then you're just going to be awash in anger. And so that is how that is an easy way to get from 18% to 23% as far as over seven years, more people feeling very angry over the course of the day. And the concern there is the trajectory. You know, this isn't slowing down. When you attach profit mode of the things, then it's very difficult to slow down the trajectory absent some form of regulation, like the tobacco stuff. The trajectory was changed only once. There was litigation and then regulation in terms of what they could do. There used to be, we talked about on a couple of shows, they used to be ads for cigarettes and kids stuff, normal. And then it was like, hey, eventually regulation got like, that's not going to happen, but I want to move us your thought, I want to get personally for you, just kind of, what do you do to try to manage anger and not have it shutting off your brain too often, whether it be, like you said, to try to have a fulfilling relationship with your wife, you know, and not constantly be in triggering things like that or just in general, how do you try to manage anger? You know, things you've learned over the last few, few decades of life.
[00:34:43] Speaker B: Well, you're assuming I want to have a good relationship with my wife.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: I am. I am.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: I don't get. I don't get stimulated by fighting and all the time.
Well, you assume right, sir. I do try to have a good, calm situation.
No, it's a good question because I think this conversation is a good example, for me at least, of how I try and deal with myself, meaning, just like with food and nutrition. I mean, I think it's important that we all have a little bit of curiosity about how our own brain works and how human psychology kind of works in general, and then learning about like we did, you know, just the way that we deal with adrenaline and the fight or flight responses. And then also for all of this, and again, I'm not trying to sound here like I'm mister perfect, right. But it does take some humility, meaning I recognize I'm not perfect and I'm a human being, and I have my own, whatever you want to call them, flaws, things like that, my own personality traits and that, like, I believe, you know, a lot of my hard wiring is a result of my childhood. So I think if we are able to honestly reflect on all that about ourselves, we can then find out and just question yourself what triggers you, what makes you mad. And then if you want to change it, then you got to do that heavy lifting yourself in whatever way. Just like if you want to change yourself from a health or physical standpoint, you got to change what you eat, maybe do some exercise. So I think in this example, that's why I brought up about how I divorced myself from social media. And to be honest, it wasn't like, an easy thing. I didn't just sit there. Faith. Go from checking Facebook 2 hours a day to just saying cold turkey. It was actually a process that when I took it off my phone first, only had it on my iPad. So that way, when I was kind of out on the street and all that, I couldn't just check all the time. Then after a little while of that, I kind of got used to it. So I started just naturally checking my iPad less because I'm, you know, I left it at home most of the time. Then I went to conditioning myself only to check in on the weekend. And then I remember after a couple months, it was one weekend, I'm just sitting there and I real. And finally is when my brain said to me, yeah man, this is a big waste of time. Cause now it was only I'm checking it like once a week on a Sunday and I'm not even seeing anything that. And I was like what am I doing on it? And then I, and then I went symbolically and said to myself okay let's just close the account. But it wasn't something just like exercise or eating right. I didn't just change overnight. And so that's kind of for me how I not, let me answer it very specifically, not how to deal with just anger. Right. Because I think again, anger is something that comes or doesn't.
[00:37:19] Speaker A: The whole point being is once it's there you, it's hard to actually.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:23] Speaker A: Get your cycle yourself out of it because you're, you're thinking part of your brain has been turned off.
[00:37:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:27] Speaker A: It's, so you were kind of trying to prevent it from.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Like how do I deal with my environment to try and minimize the amount of stimuluses and triggers that could make me angry and stress.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: And then particularly it sounds like extraneous stuff. Like obviously, you know, you're like interacting again in your household. Being a father, being a husband is, there's stuff that. Yeah, but extra stuff that could get you angry and have nothing to, no relation to whether or not you were being a good husband or being a good father or you know, being headed house in any particular way. None of that stuff sounds like to me like you looked at some of that stuff and like what can go.
[00:38:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think from a kind of, if we talk about our society and politics and that honestly what, what helps me not be angry about certain things I see and all that is actually just trying to take a genuine look at what whoever I disagree with is talking about and thinking. Because again I might not agree with somebody but if at least if I get to know where they're coming from, I can still see them as another person, let's say, and not as just this other that is totally foreign to me and that has to be just ostracized or cut out. So I think, look, but that takes, you know, again, I'm not trying to toot my own horn, right. But that takes individual responsibility for all of us in our society. We all have the ability to look at ourselves and say, you know, I'm angry now, do I really feel this way genuinely or is this just an emotional reaction or I disagree with that person over there, but let me calm down and still see them as a person and not, and that I bring some of them to the table with this discourse.
[00:39:04] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: You know, and just, that's it, I'd say.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: I definitely think which controlling what you expose yourself to is very important.
For myself, there's a couple of things. One, which you can kind of manipulate to some degree, and the other one you can't. I'd say the one that you have some level of control over is I try to really, like, we've looked at it before and, you know, just the concept that your focus defines your reality. What you focus on defines your reality, which, you know, like that's to your point of what you expose yourself to can make a big difference on your own happiness. You know, like if you expose yourself to things that, and you're focusing on things that make you unhappy, then you're going to be more unhappy. You're going to be angry.
The second piece is, I would say, or with that, though, I also, I add to that, that I try to keep perspective on outliers. And so what I also find is that even in all the environments that we have ourselves, in, a lot of times what's shown to us, whether it be social media or news media or whatever, what's shown to us are the outliers. Not 80% or 70% of the people usually are pretty boring, so to speak. We're showing the outliers because the outliers are more entertaining. But they're also what will get you angrier, you know? And so if you keep in mind that what the news may focus on is, are the outliers, so to speak, they're not, that's not the rank and file, what everybody thinks, so to speak. But those are the people that are kind of out there. That's why they get the attention. You know, if you want to get attention, you, you got to get out there. You know, if you're kind of, you know, slow and steady wins the race, like, you're not going to get the attention, so to speak. And so if you keep that in mind, then it becomes easier. Because I think a lot of times with angry is the people get angry is that they see stuff out there and they then look and say, oh, well, everyone who I don't agree with or everyone who is on the other side of this is like that outlier, there you know, and it's like, and so that, again, that's a manipulation. That's you being manipulated to say, hey, this is an avatar for this whole section of people that you may not like or have a distaste for. And so I try to keep an idea or keep in mind, in mind the idea that all we're shown intentionally is as outliers. The second piece, which you can't really control, it's going to happen, but you just get older. You mellow out a little bit as you get older. It's easy for me to say this in my early, coming into mid forties pretty soon, but if I told myself I'm 25, I run hotter.
When you're younger, you're most likely going to run hotter even if you don't run as hot as everyone else or if you run hotter than everybody else, you know, for yourself, you know, as you hang in the game, so to speak, and you've seen more things, you generally will have more perspective. And, yeah, you can identify outliers a little better or you can have a little more control to be able to control what you're exposed to. But it's, it's much more difficult when you're younger. I mean, I don't think you can kind of sugarcoat that. It's just generally speaking, that's the way it's supposed to work. You know, like, you're supposed to run hotter when you're younger or the way our bodies, you know, are designed and so forth. You're going to run hotter when you're younger. So you just got to make it through that and try to try to find things again, focuses your reality, try to focus on things that make you happy as well. You know, I tell my kids that, like, if you don't like something, don't spend all your time thinking about it, you know, think about things that you do like and do things you do like. Don't, don't spend your time and your energy only on things you don't like. They're going to come up. You deal with it and then think about things that you like or that make you happy. Yep.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: So I want to, before we move on, I got to say a quote from a famous philosopher, and I got to get my whole situation ready here, so.
[00:42:38] Speaker A: Oh, there you go.
[00:42:39] Speaker B: The famous philosopher Yoda from Star wars said, fear is the path to the dark side.
Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, and hate leads to suffering.
And it's funny that, like you said about age, right?
The older I get the more real that kind of sentence, you know, that paragraph is. And I think it comes down to, like you said about, with age comes experience, and with experience, you can reflect. And a lot of times, it's not that complicated. Right. That's why the Aesop's fables are very. They last. The test of time. The tortoise and the hare and the golden goose and all those stories, they're just straightforward kind of allegories to just the human condition.
[00:43:23] Speaker A: Yeah. People are people.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And so sometimes they're human beings, too. Don't forget.
[00:43:28] Speaker A: There you go.
[00:43:29] Speaker B: But, but, no, and I thought, you know, the. The character of Anakin Skywalker and his transition to Darth Vader is such a good, again, analogy, allegory story for what anger can do to a human being, because forgetting about the whole thing of the movie and all that. But really, what was the story is that he became Darth Vader went from a normal, cute little boy to this terrible version of a person, all because of himself. Right. He was scared to lose Padme. He was scared of their scare. Fear led to him being angry that he couldn't stop it. And the anger led him to hate, and the hate made him cause a lot of suffering. And we could look at, like you mentioned, World War two. I mean, the Holocaust is a great example of that. The fear of the german people manipulated by leadership, that made them angry, you know, led to a lot of suffering. And, you know, we can see that in a lot of examples. So.
[00:44:26] Speaker A: Yeah, that's an example. Or there are examples throughout, you know, that come to that, because that's the human condition, and the different manifest ways it is manifested in throughout time, you know, are things that we can learn about to our own benefit. And then, by the way, I say that represented in the arts as well.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: I hold my Disney cup, but I'm not grooming anybody. So we got it, you know.
[00:44:47] Speaker A: Oh, my goodness.
[00:44:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:48] Speaker A: All right.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: We're in Florida, right? So I can make these kind of jokes.
Maybe I'll be canceled.
[00:44:54] Speaker A: Second topic, we want to stay. Yeah, yeah. I got. I got to shut you off. The second topic we want to discuss today, it's. It's more in the direction of actual, you know, pop culture and just what's happened in here and over the last 30 years or so in the US. And that is there's recently an arrest of a man, and he was arrested for the murder of the 1996 murder of Tupac Shakur. And this kind of surprised people, because tupac, again, this was hap. This happened so long ago, and, you know, it was seen as something that was unsolved, and there's been documentaries recently, and we'll talk about it. But basically, Dwayne Davis, you know, known as Keith Djdeh, was arrested in the past week or so for the murder. And so I want to ask you just, you know, first your reaction, and then we'll talk about, you know, the things that have unfolded over the past few years that kind of led to this. But, you know, just your thoughts on the idea of someone being arrested and, you know, for a very high profile murder from 1996 and being arrested in 2023.
[00:46:00] Speaker B: Yeah, just, it's, it's kind of, I guess, a bookend, if I can put it that way, to, to just that period of time. I think, like you're saying 27 years ago, we were, we were much younger, and, but, you know, we lived during that time and saw what was going on back then with the culture of hip hop, the East West coast beef and what was going on kind of in the greater society with, with gang violence and all that. And, and I think, you know, what I find interesting is, number one, understanding that, you know, high profile individuals like Tupac or the notorious b I g, I just found it a little bit surprising that it took this long for law enforcement to solve. At least now have looked like they might solve one of them.
But I guess when you look at the gentleman, Keith D. As he's known, his explanation and then what transpired with those who are involved, it's kind of a sad tale of just the lifestyle. There doesn't seem to be some grand conspiracy. I know that, you know, there were people saying it was the feds or it was this or that. And it just looks to be the sad case of kind of what we've all come to know is just violence, you know, anger. Yeah. Just somebody got angry at somebody else and didn't think. And even Keith D. Now as an older man, like you said about age in part one and now with, without anger and the chance to reflect is very remote on being involved with that. But at the time, you know, his thinking brain was not so.
[00:47:39] Speaker A: Yeah, because he says that, you know, his, his nephew, you know, was shortly before the, the shooting, there was the murder.
There was Orlando Anderson, which was Keith D's nephew, got beat up. And this is on video in one of the casinos in Vegas because this was after a Mike Tyson fight. I mean, to me, the thing that stands out to me about this is like the police kind of really didn't solve the case. Like, this guy has been out here in the media like sky wrote a book. You know, he's been in a documentary. And the guy who did the documentary on Netflix said that they think that he thinks they should arrest the guy. He said that five years ago. So to me, it's like, okay, this guy wanted to get this out there, you know, like, this is more of it almost. I mean, it's not a confession in the sense that he's like, he's nothing. Saying, yeah, yeah, take me to jail. Like, he's. He's crafted his story in a way to try to give him, I think it appears to me, at least, to give him some way to try to argue out of criminal liability. But he wanted the information out there. You know, he's been telling everybody who listen, you know, for a long time. Hey, this. I was in the car. The only two people left that are alive that were there were me and Suge Knight, you know, yada, yada, yada, who was the record label boss, and actually one of the gang members who was a part of, who wanted. They wanted to attack the initial guy. They got beat up, you know, like, that was. And so to me, it's just like, okay, yeah, this guy, I'm not gonna say guilty conscience, but just kind of, he wanted this information out there. And this is kind of what, when you do see these allegations or questions of conspiracies with notable events in history, a lot of times this is what people think will happen is that, oh, yeah, eventually somebody will come out and be like, oh, yeah, this is what really happened. You know, like somebody on their deathbed or somebody when they're old. And so this is kind of what we think would happen in this type of situation now. It's interesting also, though, like, everybody or not everybody, a lot of people are taking it, you know, like, oh, yeah, this is definitely what happened. Or the credibility. Like, I don't know how credible this person is, because as he's pointing out, there's not a lot of people alive that were involved in this anymore. So he can say a lot and not really be challenged on the veracity of it. But interestingly, or it is interesting no matter what, because this was such a high profile thing. This was such. It was such a kind of crazy time in hip hop, really a time in hip hop, which I know we want to do a show later this year on the 50 year anniversary of hip hop, but it was really kind of the. A time when you can look at hip hop is actually going through a turning point, even, you know, and kind of growing up a little bit because you go, this was a very reckless time, you know, and just kind of seeing what happened and then some. Having some of the biggest stars get cut down. Like that was, you know, it was. It's something that still resonates, I would say, to this day, in terms of how hip hop evolved.
[00:50:25] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's interesting because I think, as you're saying, going back to the gentleman confessing basically in his memoir and writing it, I find it interesting because who knows what the real psychological motivation is? Is it some, you know, deep suppression of guilt where he just feels like he has to admit this? Is there a sense of grandiosity that maybe he feels, hey, I did this great thing, and nobody knows, so I got to let the word out. But I find it just is what I find.
[00:50:51] Speaker A: Like, does he want to just become a legend? You know, like, he could be the guy that's known in history as the guy.
[00:50:55] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:50:56] Speaker A: To be clear, though, he doesn't claim to have pulled the trigger. You know, like, and the police haven't arrested him as the trigger man. They've arrested him as the. The guy who directed it, the guy who got the gun.
[00:51:04] Speaker B: Accessory. Yeah, yeah, but no, and that's what I'm basically saying. Like, who knows with. In terms of his psychology, deeply what. What the motivator is, why some people talk and others don't. I mean, that's what I was gonna say. Like, I'm sure there's a lot of people that go to the grave holding a lot of serious stuff. Right. And then. But then there's people. Because as I was reading and preparing for this, I couldn't help but think of some of the things we have that we all know of just nationally, whether it be political figures or certain people on the business side, where.
[00:51:34] Speaker A: You.
[00:51:35] Speaker B: Know, people just talk about what they do openly. Those things aren't necessarily legal or, you know, kind of seen as societal norms. And by their own mouth, they end up getting in trouble.
[00:51:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:50] Speaker B: And a lot of times, what happens is then when they're in trouble, they've somehow become the victim at the same time, which I don't understand. Yeah. And so that's what I'm saying, ships. That's why, like, this guy, Keith D. Is interesting, too, because he's out there bragging about it on the memoir. But now that law enforcement's taken an interest to him, he's kind of like, well, I didn't do. You know, it wasn't me. Wasn't and like you're saying, like, yeah, but it's still called an accessory to murder if you're in the car, wild guys, and there's no evidence that you try to stop them or. Or that you handed somebody the gun that kills somebody. I mean, those are all things. I mean, I've watched enough true crime stuff and, you know, being a layman, armchair quarterback, you know, of criminal justice, to know that, you know, if you. If you are somewhere in participation with a murder, you're gonna be. Yeah.
[00:52:38] Speaker A: Put himself at the scene of the crime.
[00:52:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: Hey, man, you all bets are off once you do that. You know, and repeatedly and on over and over again. Like, yeah, I was there. I was in the car. It was, you know, like, it's like, oh, hey, man, if they come after you at this point, don't act surprised. And you're right, though. A lot of times, we'll see that, like, where people run their mouth about something and then when there are potential consequences, they're like, oh, why are you coming after me? This isn't fair.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: And it's like, you just said that.
Hold on, let me play the tape back, or let me open up your own book and see what you wrote. But then the other thing that I find interesting, because this, again, is, I mean, look, I was a Tupac fan and still am, and the guy got murdered, so that's very serious. So what I'm about to say, I just realized, might take some seriousness away from that. I was going to say, unlike certain topics, like, we just got done with part one, talking about anger and some of the things that lead to anger, which are very important discussions that involve our value system and all that, like whether it's abortion or demographics or immigration and things like that, you know, finding out all this is not as hyperbolic for the human emotion. So, in a sense, some of the conspiracy stuff that comes out of this I equate to, like, the flat earthers, where. And that's why I wanted to prepare what I said, because I didn't want to equate Tupac's death to just a flat earther without that. That priming there. But what I mean is, some people have, the brain makes such a vested and emotional stake in whatever is believed that once evidence comes out to the contrary, they can't even accept it. So, I mean, when we did the show on the flat earther documentary, I found that interesting, that anytime someone who's really in that direction is presented with facts that the earth is round, they just can't accept it. And so one was with Tupac's father. I found an interview where he's saying Tupac was being a, quote, him. Tupac was being tailed by the government the night of his assassination. He was being tailed by the government at Quad studio. That's a known fact. So I started thinking like, well, how do you know that? Are you in the government, in law enforcement? You're Tupac's dad. What facts do you have that you know for a fact? That night they were telling him, I tend to believe he probably was under some sort of FBI surveillance and all that, but I don't have that as a fact. So then he goes on to say, so, I don't know if this guy keef. I don't know. Maybe he had to say that to get out of some issue. I don't know. I just don't. I just know it. It looked like a setup to me. Somebody told this guy to stand there with death row, with the death row thing, and it pursued to what we had. But I don't think Anderson. Who? Orlando Anderson, the guy who Keith says shot it was the shooter, had anything to do with the death of my son. Not at all. So I just thought of, like, again.
[00:55:25] Speaker A: And that's the guy that got beat up in the casino.
[00:55:27] Speaker B: Yeah. An hour before. Yeah. And so, and so here's, again, Tupac, that's his dad, so he's got a right to be emotional and have his own feelings. But that's what I'm saying. Like, this guy's had 27 years of, in his mind, thinking it's the feds. And so, again, it's a bit of a buzzkill, maybe when you find out, hey, my son died in some regular kind of street beef, retaliatory, and it wasn't some grandiose conspiracy that took my son out. And I feel like it's the same way whether we look at the election, people being told something over again, and then just to find out, hey, you know what? Maybe it wasn't that bad. You know, grandiose.
It could be. And again, I'm not going to speculate too far on this one, but it could be, let's say, the JFK assassination, where it's too hard to believe there was just one dude that just decided to take out a president and the whole, you know, caused that kind of thing. Or maybe 911, where, you know, we don't want to believe that it was literally a bunch of guys that were box kind of, you know, with box cutters that weren't a truly organized military or nation state that actually caused a lot of fear and took down the Twin towers and the Pentagon.
We'd like to think it was some vast conspiracy and all this, so.
[00:56:34] Speaker A: Well, it depends. I mean, like, a lot of time where I was going to say with this, well, one, just from a little more context, Tupac's dad and his mom were both black panthers and actually were subjected to what many have argued would be like government or politically motivated type of prosecutions and incarceration and stuff like that. And so if anyone is conditioned to believe that they're, that the government's involved in some heinous stuff against, you know, your son or your daughter or whoever, like, it would be someone like that, you know, like, but I'll say, in a sense, one of the things about this, because of the amount of time that happened since it happened, is that people were already forced to kind of make peace with whatever they're going to accept as what happened and just kind of move on in their own mind like this. It, this wasn't presented or provided. This kind of breakthrough was, didn't come in a time when people were still, like, where the wound was still like, oh, okay, that's how I'm going to make peace with it, you know, and so you're what you, when this happens, anybody who made peace with another kind, they were able to make peace with it by thinking something else. You actually rip their band aid off. In a sense, it's maybe reliving the tragedy again, in a sense. So, and that's not to say that if you find new information, you shouldn't bring it up, but I just have sympathy in that sense for anyone. You know, it's close, you know, like family members or close friends and stuff, because bringing this back out like that, in a way that, again, like, they've all been forced to make peace with it. And, you know, it's like, okay, now, whether, however, you had to make peace with it, here's what we're saying. The official story was, and here we're about to prosecute this guy for this. You know, it's, that's the way things go. Sometimes it's unfortunate, you know, sometimes things go in ways that are, you know, unfulfilling and, or that can be upsetting. You know, I think it's better for society if people are involved in murder that they, you know, get prosecuted and if they actually, or if it's proven that they were involved in it, that they go to jail. So I'm not saying again, that this is wrong footed in any way. But I think for the people, the close, the people that were really close to Tupac or close to the situation, I think we can expect that they would, this would be something that would, that could create some difficulty in dealing with.
[00:58:48] Speaker B: So that sounds like a lot. I just think I'd rather be angry. Sounds a lot.
[00:58:53] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:58:54] Speaker B: I'll just be angry.
[00:58:55] Speaker A: Flip the switch.
Flip switch. So, but now we can close up from there. But we appreciate everybody, for joining us on this episode of Call. Like I see it. Subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review us, tell us what you think. Send it to a friend. Till next time. I'm James Keys.
[00:59:09] Speaker B: I'm angry Tunde.
[00:59:10] Speaker A: All right. We'll talk to you next time.
All of.
