Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hello, welcome to Call It Like I See it, presented by Disruption Now, I'm James Keys and in this episode, Call It Like I See It. We're going to discuss the CDC's new recommendation that fully vaccinated Americans can stop wearing masks in most outdoor and indoor places and how that announcement and the actual change seem to take everyone by surprise.
And later on, we're going to take a look at some new findings on how certain animals like sharks are able to use the earth's magnetic field like we use satellite based GPS to track their geolocation in real time.
Joining me today is a man whose pep talks turn into a pep rally.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Tunde.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Ogon. Lana Tunde. Putting aside any problems you may have, are you ready to get the people fired up today?
[00:01:11] Speaker B: Fire and brimstone, brother. I like that intro. I'm going to have my kids hear it.
My pep talks turn into a pep rally.
They seem to disagree, but, you know,
[00:01:25] Speaker A: now we're recording this on May 18, 2021 and a few days ago on May 13, the U.S. centers for Disease Control updated its COVID 19 pandemic guidance to state that fully vaccinated individuals are safe to go maskless and most outdoor and indoor spaces.
Now, they did carve out exceptions for things like public transportations or doctor's office, but it's pretty much they're saying for fully vaccinated people. It's almost a free for all at this point.
And while this was most certainly welcome news to most people, it certainly seemed to catch many off guard, including businesses. Many businesses. And then also state, local and even federal government officials.
But either way, undoubtedly this does appear to be news and an indication that we're moving in the right direction considering how much of a disruption COVID 19 has been in all of our lives and the loss of life that we've seen and so forth. So seems to be going in the right direction. But Tunde, what was your reaction to the CDC updating its mass guidance to give the okay for mask off?
More or less.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Obviously it's good news, right? It's another sign that we're getting past this whole kind of pandemic, at least the height of the pandemic and what I guess most of us felt were the restrictive measures we had to take in order to deal with it. Right. So I think that.
So in that sense, you know, I'm happy about it that that's coming from the top, that, you know, it's another sign that we're moving forward. But I wasn't surprised. I didn't kind of feel any way more so because I didn't, you know, I expected this to change over time and, you know, as facts change on the ground type of thing, then the change, change of the messaging from leadership will change. And clearly, I think we're at it now where over a third of the population is fully vaccinated in the United States.
And I think over 50% have at least one vaccination.
So I think, you know, this is just, to me, a natural progression of where we're at.
[00:03:30] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I look at this. I mean, this is why we're vaccinating, right? I mean, like, the point of, like, the masks were intended to be kind of a bridge to the next solution, to the more permanent solution, and the vaccination was being developed at the time, over the past year and year plus to then become the next part of the solution, so to speak. So, I mean, to me, it was kind of like, okay, yes, that means they think we've reached a significant one, a significant enough threshold of people have been vaccinated for this guidance to change. And then two, the vaccines in the real world have proven to be sufficiently effective that it justifies. Like, the plan, of course, was to try and not need the mask indefinitely. But that plan only can come into play if the mask, or, excuse me, if the vaccines actually work. So to me, that's like, okay, yes, then this plan that has been in motion is working, basically, if now we can pull back the mask guidance, which they did. I mean. And so I also think, though, the surprise, the way it was kind of just dropped out of nowhere. That actually gave it more authenticity to me because there was no smooth PR campaign or anything like that.
It definitely seemed like some doctors or some group of doctors decided, well, I think we can do this. And then kind of like just the doctor walking into the doctor's office and telling you whether you're sick or not. Like, all right, well, we ran the test and this and that. And so the fact that it was just a dry release, no big thing about it, was like, yeah, that this wasn't a political thing being done. This wasn't some grand rollout from some marketing genius. Like, this was just people that didn't really know that don't know PR came up with this. And so, I mean, I appreciate that.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: No, and I don't. I don't. I mean, I got.
I try not to watch too much news, but I got caught up. I found myself Sunday just kind of checking in on some of the. Some of The Sunday shows, and one of them, you know, the famous Sunday show, Meet the Press, they were grilling the CDC director, I believe she was the person who was in the hot seat. And, you know, I just said, they're all complaining about, you know, well, why'd you just make this sudden announcement? And I'm just thinking like, you know, this is what kind of tires me of this pandemic is everybody's complaining about something constantly. And, you know, and it's just like, first of all, who cares? Like, why do we care how they release the message? Like they just, you know, and that's kind of what I was thinking. And even preparing discussion today, like this is why partially, I think this is difficult for a large society, is because science is pure, I mean, properly done science, right, Is evidence based, fact based reason and kind of rational human beings are irrational generally. And if you put us in large groups, we're definitely irrational. You know, we behave irrationally. So what really I realized here in watching the news and reading and preparing for our discussion today was that none of this probably ever is smooth because you're trying to marry the idea of the medical and scientific community who need to learn things over a period of time through trial and error.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: They need to learn it as trial and error. They don't come in with this knowledge
[00:06:45] Speaker B: because this has never been seen before.
And then they're trying to navigate a population that wants answers right now. And that also if they, the narrative changes because maybe the facts have changed in terms of understanding, then it creates room and an entry point for suspicion. Either a natural and genuine suspicion, which I think healthy skepticism is always okay, or I think what we've seen, especially in the last year of this pandemic, actors in this greater society who want to leverage the potential for fear and suspicion for their own game and their own power.
And so that's where I feel like just watching this whole thing, that's why I said, for me, we're hearing that message of the CDC saying we don't need to wear, at least vaccinated people, don't need to wear masks anymore. I wasn't surprised. I was like, okay, maybe the facts just change in the way that the research has shown those in charge at that level that it changed. I'm not suspicious about it because I don't really care. Like that, like, all right, good news. This one more positive step for us to get back to normal, which I think is what all of us wanted. And that's why I was just surprised.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Like, I would add to That I would add, no, I would add to that. Just saying that cdc, one thing they've established is that they're on the, they're actually slow a lot of times to react as the facts become apparent and so forth. And so I actually had more confidence in this case that they actually said this. Because, for example, the outdoor aspect of this has been known for months. It's been known for months that the disease is really difficult to transmit outside because of the way it travels in the aerosol particles that come out of your mouth, like the small liquid drops that are coming out of your mouth and that's how it travels. And those things need to get concentrated. And so that's really difficult outdoors at the beach or things like that. And so but it took a long time, once the science recognized that, for the CDC to acknowledge that. And because they were just trying to be very careful, they didn't want to say something and then have the science change on them again. And so it actually, and then, so for them to come out and say this right now and people saying, oh well, you should have given us, tell us so you're gonna do it in a month or do it in a few weeks. And it's like, well, no, if the science justifies it, then do it now. You know, like, why are we doing that? But it does to me illustrate that they've seen enough. The people who are the most risk averse, the people who are managing risk, and they're not the ones that are being cavalier, those people have seen enough. And I know looking into it more, there's been studies done in Israel as far as how, because their population is very vaccinated and how it's the mass arguably, excuse me, the vaccines arguably work better than the masks at preventing the spread of the disease. So if they're seeing that and the real world data is tracking it, then I'm all for it. And yeah, I mean, I don't need a smooth rollout. You know, like if the science, like you said, this is science, this is fact based. And if that's what it's going to be, sometimes the decision can be made like that. And if it is, then don't hide it from me. Don't you say, oh well, we're going to do it for three weeks and then this and that, like just, just tell us. And so I was happy with the way they did it. And now there was a phenomenon I wanted to ask you about though that we are seeing, and we'll probably see for a while, is that people Even being vaccinated, even seeing the CDC saying that they are like, hey, you're good outdoors with no mask. And you're good most indoor spaces with no masks, if you're fully vaccinated, saying, nah, forget it. I'm wearing my mask no matter what. I'm gonna keep wearing my mask for a year, for two years, for five years. What's your thought about that?
Is that just where we are now, where we're gonna be, a partially masked society?
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
Again, I try not to have any opinions. I mean, look, it's, it's fascinating.
[00:10:31] Speaker A: The wrong thing if you don't have any opinions. It's a podcast.
[00:10:34] Speaker B: I know, I know. I'm trying to, trying to thread a needle here by being the first guy to talk a lot without giving an opinion. I don't think it's going to work. So, but so, so, so let me just keep going then.
No, so that's where like, you know, you know me, I'm Mr. 30,000 Foot Guy. So it's, it's. Let's extrapolate it out. And I think, number one, you're right.
Just to answer you directly. Yeah. It's almost hilarious that now we have people that are refusing not to wear a mask and it's just like, all right, here we go again. Like another reason.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: Refusing to, refusing to go without.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: Take it off. Yeah.
And so it's just like, all right, well, here we go. Another, another group in our country that's just going to say, you know, they're going to do it their way and they're going to say that everyone is wrong and except them and why they're the victim. That, you know, that we're all taking our masks off too soon. So, you know, it is what it is.
[00:11:29] Speaker A: That's my point.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Like, it is what it is. And I've kind of come. That's what I mean by the 30,000 foot view of it. Like, I guess this is what it looks like to live in a free society. Right. And it's just that. And that's where I'll get it with all this stuff that we're dealing with in this last few years, that everyone's complaining and everyone's a victim, but their specific group is like, you know, the alternative to me. I mean, I know there's always a fine equilibrium in between some of these extremes, but, you know, if we want to maintain our freedoms and our liberties as Americans, then we got to put up with all kinds of people having opinions. And that's why I didn't agree with those that were extremely against masks. And I don't agree with people who are going to keep wearing masks after. It's unnecessary. I mean, that's kind of how I feel. You know, moderation is key. And so what I'm getting at is that the alternative we would have would be to be what we heard happen in China, where the government actually comes in and was, like, not sewing and stitching, but, like, nailing people's doors shut to keep them inside as one measure. And some of these densely popped. So, I mean, if we don't want to live in that society, then I guess we gotta accept the fact that everybody's gonna react to this different.
And I guess that's where the CDC and the kind of from the top down maybe makes a suggestion like, all right, you don't need to wear masks if you're fully vaccinated. If someone decides they want to wear a mask and keep wearing. I mean, look, that ain't my business, so.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Exactly. No, I mean, that's.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: I'm not wearing a mask, but I'm not gonna criticize someone that does this because I don't care. Like, you know, that's their business.
[00:13:02] Speaker A: Do you? Do you? I mean, that's kind of the thing. I think that sometimes we get into trouble because we either expect or desire uniformity.
And that's just not to your point. That's just not how it works in a free society like you. There's just things aren't going to be uniform just because you're doing something. You cannot walk around with an expectation that everybody else is gonna do something. Like the things that we are enforced, so to speak, amongst all members of society are more so. It should be more so about safety and protecting each other. For people infringing on your rights, infringing on your liberties. People aren't allowed to kill you. People aren't allowed to steal from you. Things like that. People aren't allowed to be reckless in ways that directly endanger you. But right now, society has given us options, so to speak. Society, meaning the cdc, the people who are looking at these things, government, health agencies, on behalf of all of us. And they're giving us options. And you take one of those options, but there's not gonna be uniform.
Everybody's not going to do the same thing. And so I think that that's kind of built in. I mean, and in fact, you've seen, if you paid attention over the past 20 years or so in certain Asian countries, people have been wearing masks because they've dealt with these pand prior in a more acute fashion than we did. So where they did with SARS or mirs or different things like that, there have been people who never stopped wearing masks there. And so that kind of was almost something you can anticipate coming here. Like, once people see it, once people see the pandemic, some people, it changes them, and they're not the same after that anymore. And for their own comfort, they need to do a little bit more than what other people. But again, how is that any different that some people are seatbelt wearers every time? Some people are 10 and 2 on the steering wheel, and some people are not wearing seatbelts. I mean, they're not supposed to do that. But some people aren't. They're not that worried about the risk. They might drive with one hand on the top and the other hand in their phone or on their phone. And again, that's not good. That's not what we want. But everybody approaches the risks that we face differently. I mean, and that's just part of being in a large society. So we want to enforce a certain level. But there's a balance there where you can't start infringing on people's liberties either, you know?
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Yeah. I think it's funny because I looked at the mask thing from day one as kind of the analogous to the seatbelt, and I know some people that just still refuse to wear a seatbelt today. Most people I know wear seatbelts, including myself.
And now with the way I feel about vaccines and the masks, now that we have pretty much full access to vaccines, anyone that really wants to get one, and enough Americans have been inoculated that, you know, I think we'll be reaching some sort of herd immunity here generally probably by the end of the year.
I look at it like smoking a cigarette.
[00:15:50] Speaker A: That's a little wishful, but that's the hope, man.
As far as. Go ahead.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: Half the population vaccinated, or I would assume by the end. We're not even halfway through the year yet. So my point is just saying that now I look at it like smoking cigarettes.
We have enough information in this Society today, in 2021 to know that smoking cigarettes is bad for you generally. Right. And we know all the causes, you know, the side effects that can happen from, you know, chronic cigarette smoking. But there's a reason why Philip Morris, Altria, and all these tobacco companies are still making billions of dollars because people still want to smoke cigarettes. And maybe it's not a majority of the population, but. And no one, you know, and we are, it's like to me, that's the free country part of it, right? Like, all right, if someone knows the facts, they know this stuff potentially could do them harm. But they want to take the chance. I'm not going to stop them. And it's interesting, and this is anecdotal,
[00:16:45] Speaker A: but
[00:16:48] Speaker B: my father in law is 83 and he smokes probably between one and two packs a day religiously. So he's a good example of someone that has lived a long life and looking like he's going to continue to go smoking cigarettes. I know unfortunately other people that have passed away in their 60s from lung cancer from smoking cigarettes. So I think it's the same now the way look at the vaccine, the mask, people are taking a chance now. They have the ability to get vaccinated. They have the knowledge and the facts behind whatever it all means to protect yourself from the virus. If they choose not to, they're just like the cigarette smoker. They're taking a chance that they can either be my father in law, meaning get Covid, have barely any side effects and just kind of keep rolling, or they could be the equivalent of the person dying of lung cancer at a younger age, which would be get Covid and pass away or be really, really ill. And so that's why I just think everybody needs to chill out.
[00:17:47] Speaker A: Well, I'll tell you this, you were speaking on the herd immunity thing, but there are still large numbers of Americans that are dead set against getting the vaccine.
And that's like there's been reports of demand slow down.
They now are having more shots than they have people to give them and so forth. Which just on a side note, we should acknowledge it's been a very impressive rollout. To be able to get that many shots distributed and into people's arms is pretty impressive from just a logistical standpoint to have all that so quickly. But just that is an aside I want to ask you.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: No, but you put something. That's why I want to give you props. You sent an article. Did it say 273 million vaccines have been delivered in the United States, like put in people's arms either first or second.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Yeah. 273 million doses of vaccines. Now some of those are one of the two dose Moderna or Pfizer. But yeah, and I'll put that in the, in the show notes. But that's from.
[00:18:42] Speaker B: That's what we're saying. That's impressive. We got 331 million people in this country. I mean, within yeah.
When did the vaccines really get like available? November of last year. You know, you're talking seven months ago, October maybe. So I'm just saying mass.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: It was more recent than that.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So that's all. So that's all. Sorry to interrupt. I just wanted to kind of say that, you know, you found some interesting stats that I thought were important to share.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And so but that being said, you know, there are still large numbers of Americans that appear to be dead set and state say that they are dead set against getting it. Like not that they're all. Well, maybe, maybe not, but like no, no way. And so what's your thought on that? Because that could stop you from getting the herd immunity you're talking about. But again that runs into the thing of, you know, this is a free country and so you're not going to some degree it's difficult to force people to do things like that. And we'd be concerned if the government was out here forcing people to do stuff.
[00:19:42] Speaker B: So you know, there's several thoughts on that. I think that's a combination of several things. I think there's a natural part of us as humans that resist certain things and there's like anything else in humanity, right? There's spectrum. So there's some people that are more further on the spectrum to resist authority and things coming down from the top than others. I think that's kind of the natural human part of this. I think the other thing is leadership. I think we had a very fractured message last year when the pandemic came out about exactly what was going on.
And I think just the fact that a large portion, up to half of this country believed in the leadership at the time and what they were saying about whether it was started out being a hoax and then, you know, the kind of messaging changed over time and then the other half maybe didn't and unfortunately became more of a political response than maybe just a kind of rational. That's what I mean by the kind of irrational side of humans and tribalism, all that. I also learned something new in preparing for today because you know, there's never been a good, there's never been a
[00:20:53] Speaker A: better
[00:20:55] Speaker B: industry to put titles and categorize us all than psychology and science. So I learned something called reactance and it's a state of mind for humans. And so I'm going to read real quick a definition.
Reactance is a motivational state which is activated when people perceive a threat to their freedom of choice. Often people experiencing reactance feel angry and engage in Counter arguing the original public health message. So again, you know, that's a psychological state, I guess, a motivational state of reacting to something. So I think it's a little bit all that. I think there's also something in our DNA as Americans, you know, the individual.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: Isn't that called just being a contrarian?
[00:21:41] Speaker B: Well, that's what formal word for that now.
That's the categorization of it. Yeah. So. And then. And then we call.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: That's just being difficult.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: But not going.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: No, but that's what I was gonna say. I think it's part of that. That's part of the human part of it that I'm sure in every population, no matter what country, just humanity, you're gonna have some of that then. Like I said, I think part of it is the leadership. You know, had leadership been more unified and maybe behind some of the scientific people last year when the pandemic came out, maybe the country as a whole would have seen that unity and a higher percentage of people would have bought into some of the remedies to help alleviate us. And then that's what I was gonna say. The other part, I think, is just cultural. Like you mentioned about the certain Asian countries, certain cultures have more of a collective view of their society, that they are a cog in a much bigger wheel as individuals. And so they might fall in line more because they're saying, okay, I'm looking out for my fellow citizen type of thing more so than myself.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: That's a good point.
[00:22:46] Speaker B: I think in America, we just have this cultural streak of we all feel emotionally like we're the Lone Ranger. We want to be that cowboy out west that's going to get his plot of land and just, you know, I want my wife and kids and everyone else, leave me alone type of thing. And that's a very American way of being. So when the authority starts telling Americans, do this, do that, we tend to
[00:23:07] Speaker A: react to help your fellow citizens because it's better for all of us if you do it. That's not persuasive to a large.
[00:23:15] Speaker B: We're not programmed like that. And then like I said, you've got. Just because of the fractured media landscape, while you had a lot of interference coming into that message as well. And then. And that's what I was gonna say as you.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: Well, let me. Let me.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: I just wanna say one last thing, as you mentioned Israel, because I wrote this as a note, their mass vaccination being of success. You know, one of the things I've always said is I believe that Israel benefits greatly culturally as a nation from their forced military service after high school.
And I think that if you look at their mass vaccination, their ability to mobilize themselves as a nation, as a large population, several million people, I think a lot of it comes to that because I think the fact that every Israeli right after high school, from 18 for at least two years, if not longer, has to serve in the military, they all get beat up together in boot camp and all that. I think there is a greater sense of the collective there. And like we're talking about, they're more apt to say, let's just do this all for each other versus maybe our society, which doesn't have that shared experience altogether, right at a certain age, that we are more individualistic. So, you know, I leave it there.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: That's a good point. I mean, but there are a lot of reasons why.
Because a lot of that's culture. Cultural, excuse me, but some of it can be circumstantial as well. I mean, Israel also is surrounded by other nations that it has been at war with at various times, you know, over periods of time. So that type of having, having. Being surrounded by what you may be considered to be hostile forces also would bring more solidarity in the group and in some cultures are just more. Have more solidarity within the group, have more shared obligation and so forth than others.
[00:24:58] Speaker B: So, hey, man, don't forget about how aggressive Canada's been.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: So, yeah, yeah, we all got to unite.
Canada's coming for us. But I think actually, though, the most. All of those things that you said. I agree. I mean, I think that there's. Well, I would also add also, there's a justifiable big distrust. A justifiable distrust in Big Pharma. Big Pharma has been all about the money and not necessarily about trying to take good care of people for a long time, you know, like. And that's just the way they're operating. Like the whole opioid crisis, we're finding out in all these, all these cases is litigation, that they were pushing that Purdue Pharma or whatever, they're actively seeking to profit off of that with these painkillers and so forth. And that's just one example of many where the interest of profits have gone above the interests of people with Big Pharma. So I think there's a justifiable distrust there. But I think the biggest factor actually is the nature of COVID 19 and that you kind of touched on this before. It doesn't. It's not debilitating to everyone.
And so you can get it, be asymptomatic. The majority of people who carry it are asymptomatic. And then of the people who get sick, still only a small percentage of those people have a really adverse outcome. So because of that, the risk calculation, when people start doing risk reward of the vaccine, undoubtedly the risk calculation for a lot of people is just gonna be, I don't think this is that big of a deal. Now there's been some messaging that's led into that, but just looking around, you also will get that, you know, and say, hey, like the vaccine messaging does need to. And this goes to your point to really be into the vaccine, in many instances, you do have to not only be looking out for yourself, but be willing to look out for your fellow citizen, your people around you as well. And so I think that there's a lot going on. Like there's, there's people who would say, oh, well, all of these people, it's all political or all these people are selfish and all that. And I'm one, I think that people should get the vaccine. But I think that this is just a different ask than if there was, if Ebola was running rampant and people were saying, hey, there's an Ebola vaccine, do you want to get it? I don't think you have the same kind of resistance because people dying and bleeding out of their eyes and stuff like that, oh, yeah, I'll get that vaccine. And so I think we shouldn't discount that. You know, just that Covid, especially if you're younger. You know, for older people, the numbers for vaccinated older people are higher because they, if you're older, you've seen like, hey, yeah, this is really dangerous when you're older. But for younger people, they say, oh, well, it's not that big of a deal. And one of the things I noticed as well is that the vaccine hesitancy may also be tied to how much you restricted your activity during the heat of the pandemic. So if you restricted your activity a lot, if you were not doing a lot of social, social gatherings and things like that, then people tend to be more anxious and more ready to get the vaccine. But people who just kept living their life kind of like, eh, you know, I've been doing what I'm going to do anyway. Why get the vaccine? You know. But again, same thing, what you were saying as far as like the social calculation, just not factoring much into that.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I agree. And I think that's where like you said too, that if someone, because I have friends that won't take the vaccine, they haven't stopped living their life since day one. And so, and it's a good point, you make that. And then I.
Where I'm going is, as you said it, I realized there's a lot of people I know that stayed indoors and really took all that serious. And you're right, they were like running to get the vaccine because to them it meant liberation.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: The reward was very high for them. Whereas the people who didn't stop living their life, the reward was like, eh, I'm doing all the stuff I want to do anyway.
[00:28:48] Speaker B: And I think, you know, it's interesting because you're right. I think the fact that you've got. It's pharmaceutical, the vaccine, there's all this room for whether, whether it's the conspiracies about the 5G and Bill Gates and George Soros and all that stuff, or it's just the actual, what I would say maybe the more valid concerns that certain groups have based on historical factors, like looking back at the Tuskegee experiment and other things that have been done in the past, where people can say, there's a legitimate feeling for me to feel suspicious about this.
But I also think going back to kind of the human, like you said, I'll use the fancy scientific word of the reactants, but maybe we'll just say contrarian.
Because I was looking through some of this historical stuff too. I was like, I think I googled as one of the things to prepare for today, like the history of just not conforming when big stuff happens in society. I found that the same thing happened when seat belts were starting to be enforced. I read an article where the guy, the author was saying how he remembered his grandfather would cut the seat belts out of the cars that he bought because I guess, oh my God, he was born. You know, this author is probably older than us. And the guy was born at a time when, I guess the Model T, Ford and all that, he didn't have seatbelts. So his cultural thing, when they started enforcing seatbelts, he just wanted to rebel. And he would literally take a scissor and cut the seat belt out of the car and just drive around like that.
[00:30:17] Speaker A: He would just not use it. So he wouldn't just not use it, he would cut it out. Like nobody.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: Symbolically. Yes. Get this out of here. Right? You're not going to control. Wow. Then I found this was a funny one. Resistance to condoms when they first came out. And you Know, people saying, I'm not putting that on, you know, I'm putting something between me and all that. Then I thought about things like, I remember being a kid and there was still rumblings about the resistance to the fluoride and tap water. I remember all that, you know, back in. When I was a kid. And then that even got me thinking about, like, and this isn't a resistance because you can't do anything about it, but the suspicion about things like contrails, you know, the kind of steam that's created off the back of an airplane when it's at a certain atmosphere because of the way that the water molecules react when it's flying at that speed. And people think that that's somehow the government spraying something into the air or something. So I think that it just. That's why as I was prepping for today, it kind of reminded me a bit of our recent show on the conspiracy theories, like this similar mindset of a little bit of knowledge. And then because it's not fully known, there's now this suspicion.
And depending on how far the mind gets, suspect may lead to the end resistance or non resistance. Then I think, like we talked about leadership's important and not just political leadership. I'm talking to leadership in the media, all that. And when you have such a fractured messaging and where it becomes part of people's political identity and their value system, then you have a lot of room for this fracturing.
And the other thing, too.
[00:31:54] Speaker A: I felt. I'll tell you.
[00:31:56] Speaker B: Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
[00:31:57] Speaker A: Oh, no, I was gonna say. I tell you that. I'll tell you this, though. I thought of the same thing. What I've come to realize, though, is that people are just really.
It's difficult for people to evaluate these risks.
Well, because the, like, the issue with the planes and the emissions from the planes, like, it's. I think it's legitimate to be worried or wonder about if the government is spraying things. But I would say, like, if they are, they're not gonna do it in a way that you can see it that easily. Like, that's not it. That's not what you worry about. You worry about they spray for mosquitoes down here. I don't see big blooms coming out of planes, you know, like. But I know it happens. And so. And then even with the tap water thing, like, that's something. I think there's. It's legitimate to be skeptical of that. Like, hey, you're putting something in the water, you know, what's going on there.
You know, it's about medication, it's not about, you know, cleaning the water, so to speak. But any of these things, there is a level of risk that you're either willing to accept or not, you know. And so evaluating how big the risk is is difficult because it requires a level of context that just us walking around don't usually have access to. Like to be able to really contextualize how big of a risk something is. Even with the conspiracies with the vaccine, which I don't think are like, I don't think there are any good conspiracies with the vaccine right now.
There's a lot going on here. Sometimes there's conspiracies that have more plausibility than others. The ones with the vaccine seem to be on the less plausible with the COVID vaccine seem to be less plausible. Cuz Big Pharma is usually in it for money. If you want conspiracies with big Pharma, it usually ends with a big dollar sign in it. And their money's already guaranteed with the COVID stuff. As long as they don't blow it, as long as they keep everything cool where everybody, people aren't just falling out, they're going to get endless money from the COVID vaccine. So to me, actually, if you look at the incentive structure here that's in place, for once the pharmaceutical companies have a great motivation or excuse me, like incentive structure here where hey, as long as you guys keep people upright, then you guys will make money on this forever billions and you write your own check. So it's like, hey, this seems to be a great time that we have where the pharmaceutical companies interests line up with ours. You know, hey, they keep us safe, they get endless money, you know, and that's always, not always, but that's. It seems like it's always for the pharmaceutical companies the conspiracy ends in how they get the most money. So hey, it worked. It seems to be working out for us this way. So I mean, we never know, we never know. But tell me this we see now you've touched on around this. But you know, I wanted to ask you directly, you know, seeing how our government and the public has reacted to the COVID 19 pandemic, has seeing that changed your view on people's ability to collectively work together, you know, and to solve problems in our society. Like has that changed your views at all? Or just kind of, you know, just you see it as more of the same or anything like that. But no, just what's your takeaway on that? Like because it's not like this is the last hurdle as society we'll ever have to come up with or as societies around the world that we'll ever have to overcome. So what do you think? How are we looking as far as being able to overcome problems?
[00:35:00] Speaker B: The same.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: Same.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: My answer is no. I don't think there's no change. No change. I mean, that goes back to everything we just talked about, right? I mean, this is all A large society is just a collection of a bunch of individuals and how they view it. Right. And so that's what I mean, that you've got these different spectrums of people that are resist things, that people that'll be open to things.
And then you've got again the fractured messaging from leadership, all that. So I just think this is another example of a large People being people. Yeah, people being people. And that's what I wanted to say too, is like looking at this last year and I really feel, again, this is where I feel kind of warm and fuzzy about the country because what a mess this has been. I don't care who, if you supported President Trump, President Biden, if you believed in the COVID or not, if you wanted to wear a mask or not, if you believe in whatever side you're on. I think we all can acknowledge that this thing has felt messy and sloppy and it's just had a lot of fits and starts.
But it's like you go back to 16 months ago whenever this really started, and there was all these reports about the other countries. You had these examples like Sweden went like, laissez faire. Let's just let this thing spread and let's just see how that goes. Then you had the countries like New Zealand and Italy that went the total opposite. That's fully locked down and all that.
And you look at what a mess we appear to be. But then I look and say, wow, wow. The United States is still looking like it's coming out the best out of this whole thing.
Europe is still way behind.
The Asian countries are still figuring it out. India, we know, has had massive issues and problems recently that are probably being underreported, looking at the size of their population and the population density.
So, you know, it's just another thing that makes me feel like that old Winston Churchill kind of saying. I think he said that Americans will end up, like, doing the right thing after they've exhausted all other angles. And then there was another one that I think was also from him that he said that democracy is the best. It's like, ugly, but it's the best system to work.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: It's the worst form of government. Except everything else that's been.
[00:37:17] Speaker B: Except everything else. Yeah. And.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: And it's just funny, optimistic tune that you always want to turn that into the best, but it's the worst.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: No, and that's what I'm saying.
You figure this is why. And this goes back to even the show we had last week about our democracy and the fragility of it, but the importance of it.
[00:37:37] Speaker A: Right?
[00:37:37] Speaker B: And that's what I'm saying. Like, this is messy, but in the end, until somebody figures something else out that's better, this still appears to be the best system for humanity if we can keep it. Because what I'm getting at too is it's also like, this was a good example of the private and public sector coming together over the last year because we did this show on the MRNA research and all that. I mean, it's fascinating that we're able to have this vaccine. It's effective and it's like you said, distributed at 273 million doses already in six to seven months.
And that speaks to, well, tone day. Yeah.
[00:38:14] Speaker A: Let me tell you something, man. All of your explanation, now, your answer was like it didn't change your mind on it at all. But all your explanations is touting how impressed you are with how well we've ultimately in the big picture.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: You know what, it shows that I'm. This is what I consider being a patriotic American.
Embracing the fact that it's not.
Embracing the fact that it's messy, it's not perfect, and that's okay, but we still keep moving ahead.
[00:38:39] Speaker A: Well, let me come out and say it.
Let me come out and say it. I actually this has encouraged me, I'm more encouraged now that we can handle big problems. Like, I think sometimes we get too distracted with the loud malcontents and like people complaining this, complaining about that, and there's always gonna be people complaining. If you're in any sufficiently large size group, you're always gonna have the complainers. But you can't only focus on the complainers. You can't only focus on the complaints. Now you should listen to the complaints, see if there's anything valid in the complaints. Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. But overall, to have come up with to one within a couple of months, and again, these are large societies here.
To come within a couple of months to come up with kind of a workable temporary solution being the masks. Okay, here, do this with the mask. Probably a little overzealous as Far as all the places we're telling us to wear masks, but. But nonetheless to wear a mask. In the meantime, the government put up some money to try to keep people afloat. And then all simultaneously you have this vaccine development going on, taking advantage of things that have been in development for decades, but building on them. And then so within a year or so, you have these vaccines readily available. You distribute almost 300 million of them in the United States and then around the world even more.
This is pretty impressive to me. Like the fact that we, this could be mobilized like this, have a temporary solution, have the next solution seamlessly come in after that, and then now we don't know if any of this stuff will stick. You know, like over the course of the pandemic, we've seen, oh, it looks like this person has it figured out, oh, no, now they're in trouble. And this person figured it out, now they're in trouble. And I don't know that us has handled it the best, but we've handled it relatively well, I would say, you know, like, and I think that that is of note. And I mean, again, to get to, if you look at the big picture of all of the things that we went through, and this is without even everybody pulling on the same in the same direction, but none enough people pulling in the same direction to go from the masks, to go from, to testing the vaccines and so forth, and then getting the vaccines out there to get into the vaccines to the point where in the real world they're showing that they're more effective than the masks is pretty impressive. I mean, that is if we put our mind to it, basically.
That's a pretty impressive thing to be able to deal with. And if we can keep it going, then great. But so far the focus and the results, again, not getting caught up in the day to day, this person's mad about this, this person's mad about that. That group says this, that group says that. But just looking at the overall arc, it's pretty impressive. And I think that if the alien showed up tomorrow, you know, we may, it may take us a while to kind of get our minds together as far as how we want to deal with it. We may have 10% of the people just, you know, what'd you call them? Reaction?
[00:41:31] Speaker B: Reactants.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Reactants. We might. 10% of the people that are just falling prey to reactants, you know, and so like. But ultimately it seems like the overall ship will be able to get onto a course, a workable course and kind of plug along.
[00:41:47] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: No, it's fascinating. So we could keep talking. I know.
[00:41:52] Speaker A: Yeah. We could go for hours.
[00:41:54] Speaker B: Endless irrationality versus rationality.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: And we've lived it. We've lived it so close. And so what I'm saying is actually hard to kind of conceptualize. Cause we've lived the ups and downs and the fits and starts. Like the CDC saying, oh, you don't need a mask. And then a month later, no, you do need a mask. That's very. It's hard to gloss over that as an overall arc. Even though that was 12, 14 months ago. But it still feels like, oh, because they were wrong. It's like, oh. But nonetheless, like I said, it's interesting, like I said. And we can go forever on that as far as how we've dealt with it. But, hey, the march continues in what appears to be the right direction.
So we also. Today, I know we wanted to discuss this point with. Basically what it is, is they're doing research with sharks. And they're trying to figure out how sharks in the ocean, in the middle of the ocean, too. Like no reefs around or anything like that. How they're able to go thousands of miles away, come back to the same spot repeatedly and do all this stuff. How do they know where they are? Because it couldn't be because of landmarks or I guess, underwater marks and things like that.
And it doesn't seem like it's like you couldn't get such precise positioning just from North Pole, South Pole type of navigation, the ability to do that. And so what they believe they found is that the Earth's magnetic field, which emanates from the poles, but actually it covers the whole world. It's not something that is just based at the poles. But the sharks can use that magnetic field for geolocation in the same way that we use satellites and so forth. So the thing that jumps off the page to me is this, is that that is possible. Like, the whole point being, like, we understand that flying is possible because we see birds. And then we created a device that does it. Now, it took tens of thousands of years of humans to do it. But if sharks can do this, then conceivably it's possible to use the Earth's magnetic field for geolocation. Which means we could do geolocation without satellites. So, Tunde, what do you. I know you and I are both interested in these type of environment science, intersections and so forth. So I knew you'd have some interesting stuff to say about this book. So what's your thoughts on this, man? Like, that's Earth's magnetic field. You're a boater.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: It's very interesting. But as you said that, it made me think about something that I saw this weekend.
You know, I'm an aviation enthusiast type and I was watching a documentary about the SR71 Blackbird, which was at the time when it was retired in 1990.
First kind of began work in 57 and was first used in the Vietnam War in 68. So it had a 22 year career and it still holds the record for the fastest plane and the fastest cruising speed. It could do Mach 3 for 90 minutes straight.
And so what happened was interesting though. They said that because even though we have the technology to make planes faster and all that, the reason why I was retired in 1990 is that's when the spy satellite game was good enough that I guess didn't matter if you had a plane that could go Mach 10. You know, to have something sitting in space looking down was always going to be superior than to actually all the mechanical stuff it took to have a plane and those kind of engines to be serviced and all that.
So that, that got me thinking about what you're saying about why use satellites when we could use the Earth's magnetic field. And it's interesting, it might be easier still to use other forms of technology now for location for us as humans than it would be maybe to use the Earth magnetic field. And you're right.
[00:45:39] Speaker A: Well, that's because we don't know how they do it. Yeah, we don't know how sharks do it. We know they do it, but we don't know how they do it.
[00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and that's what I'm saying though, it's fascinating because we may or may not ever get to using that for ourselves because sharks don't have the ability to go into space and look down to.
That's all I'm saying is that even if we learn how to do it, it may not be the most, the best use of our energy and time.
[00:46:02] Speaker A: That's a failure of imagination, man.
If you're in a conflict, somebody can shoot down your satellite, but the Earth's magnetic field is always going to be there. Somebody can block out your ability.
[00:46:11] Speaker B: They could block out.
[00:46:12] Speaker A: Yeah, so they could block out the Earth's magnetic field.
[00:46:14] Speaker B: No, but your ability to maybe use it, you know, like jamming electronic signals, you know, all that kind of stuff like they do now with radio signals and. But it's just, I mean, forget about that kind of speculation. But it's like, it's fascinating because it's another example, I think, of how much of the natural world is out there like that we don't truly comprehend, and also how other living creatures relate to the natural world in ways that we don't totally don't understand and don't experience. Because another recent. There's a really good documentary series right now on Netflix, I believe it's called Life in Color, and it's about how animals use color. And they were talking about the ultraviolet lights, and now they made the camera appear from an ultraviolet light view of how a flower looks to a butterfly. It looks totally different than the way our eyes receive light. So this is another example to me of, you know, our brains aren't wired to deal with the magnetic field in the same way as a shark, but a shark's whole experience must be different than our experience. And that's just, to me, fascinating.
And so that's one of the things. The other thing that I got kind of sad from ding, ding, ding, if I can say that word, reading this, just to put it out there as a fan of the environment and of nature, is they said that from 1970 to 2018, the abundance and the population of sharks and ocean rays have dropped by 70%.
So I thought that was pretty sad to point that out.
[00:47:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, it's. Well, that's part of our effect as far as changing the Earth.
So hopefully we can reverse that as we become more conscious of and more people care of these effects that we're having. But, I mean, I think that
[00:48:10] Speaker B: the
[00:48:11] Speaker A: point that there's more going on in the world than we're conscious of is just one I think we really shouldn't overlook. And I think it's a really good point that you made. I mean, another one that's fascinating to me similar to this or, you know, just is the animals that can see light outside of the spectrum in which we can see, we can only see light in a very narrow spectrum of what we call visible light. But, you know, infrared, uv, things like that. All these different places or other spaces in the light spectrum that animals can see that stuff and we just can't at all pick it up. And so it's in the same way there's so many capabilities amongst the animal kingdom, as you said, that interact with what's going on in the natural world that we don't have. And so much of it is out of sight, out of mind, but so much of it could be useful as, like, we can't see radio waves is an example I was going to Go to here. But we use radio waves for cell phone communication, for all types of communication, for all the communication between the satellites and so forth.
But radio waves are out there. We just could never pick up on them until we have an antenna. And so with that, I see these things, these discoveries, and then, I mean, maybe this is just me being simple human, but I'm just like, well, how could we use that ourselves? I mean, that was the biggest thing to me, because if I on my phone can be or wherever, whatever device can pick up on precise positioning just from the Earth's magnetic field, there's another step there, another thing that we'd be able to do from that. And it just takes us on a whole nother direction in a whole nother pathway for more discovery and so forth. So to me, just seeing the capability and actually being able to observe, the capability now, to know that it's there, it opens up such a wide range of possibilities. And I mean, that's. Honestly, that's fascinating. That's just things that we should be doing. We should be trying to understand what's going on around us. And I'm happy that, you know, we see that happening here.
[00:50:06] Speaker B: Yep. And that's the other thing, too, that I find fascinating. Just the magnetic field itself. I started reading a little bit just to learn, you know, and I just.
It was.
It's just amazing what we, you know, how much there is to learn out there. So just to read a quick definition. The magnetic field is generated by electric currents due to the motion of convection currents of a mixture of molten iron and nickel in the Earth's outer core. So just to me, fascinating that it's something as large as the Earth because of the movement of that molten, like the rocks that are made up of these metals, like the nickel and all that, that all kind of rubbing together creates this over time, just creates this magnetic field that extends from the core of the Earth into outer space.
That also, the magnetic field, it protects
[00:50:55] Speaker A: us from the Sun's radiation.
[00:50:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it protects us from the solar wind, which then allows our atmosphere to stay in place. And that one of the big, you know, because it seems that science and astronomy is becoming more and more comfortable with the idea that life did exist on Mars at one point. And the assumption is that as Mars, the planet itself began to slow its rotation over time, its magnetic field began to diminish.
And as the magnetic field diminished, the solar winds began to eat away at the atmosphere. And so it's just fascinating that something like this potentially is the whole reason we Exist, you know, this magnetic field, and it's totally out of our control, I'm pretty sure, like, no matter what we do as a society, whatever we think we're doing.
No, what I'm saying is we spend a lot of time with things that are somewhat, what I would say, within our control, like the ability to manage the levels of CO2 that we emit as humans into the atmosphere, that, if you believe in climate change, could lead to disrupting the Earth's ability to deal with these changes in a relatively short period of time. We know that the Earth's climate has changed over long periods, hundreds of thousands of years, tens of thousands of years. But for it to change so suddenly over just a couple hundred years might be too short of.
[00:52:16] Speaker A: Remember though, that discussion. But that discussion isn't about whether the Earth is gonna be okay. That's a discussion on whether we'll be okay.
[00:52:22] Speaker B: The Earth is gonna be if we,
[00:52:25] Speaker A: we're not messing that up.
[00:52:26] Speaker B: Like I said, the Earth is cold rock on the surface and there's molten lava stuff in the interior. Yeah, that's not gonna change with a 2 or 3 degrees up or down. But you're right, the life is. We know it.
[00:52:37] Speaker A: And if we get knocked out. Well, no, and even if we get knocked out and we take all the most of 90% of the plant life, animal life with us, it'll come back. It's done that in the Earth before. So, I mean, the whole climate change stuff is only about saving us, the
[00:52:49] Speaker B: Earth, you know what I'm saying, is that something like the magnetic field, no matter what we do, I don't think we're affecting that. And what I'm saying is that it's almost just like scary and sad to think about how vulnerable we are, really. Like, no matter what we do, if this magnetic field stops working, it's over without a question.
[00:53:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:10] Speaker B: It's just interesting to me that there's so much that makes up just why we're here that is way out of our control. And so it's another reminder. So anyway, that's all I got.
[00:53:21] Speaker A: Well, nah, man. Well, we can wrap it from there, man. But yeah, I always like to look at these things and discuss them with you just because, I mean, it's stuff that normally we would have no interaction with or think about, but it's pretty interesting. And then it's pretty, you know, just fascinating to see those types of things amongst other living beings, particularly that they're making use of it, that like, they got stuff going on too. And it's things that maybe in the future we may be able to plug into, you know, and something like that. So we appreciate everybody for joining us, you know, on this episode of Call It Like I See It. And until next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:53:56] Speaker B: I'm Tundevilana.
[00:53:58] Speaker A: All right. Subscribe, rate review and we'll talk to you next time there.
