Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: In this episode, we take a look at the criticism artists like Nelly and Snoop Dogg have received for performing at events connected to the inauguration of President Trump and discuss what people who may not have voted for Trump in November should be expected to do now, you know, as he takes office. And later on, we consider whether you can in fact train yourself to be more optimist.
Hello, welcome to the Call Like I See it podcast. I'm James Keys, and joining me today is a man who's always ready to put some flavor in you. Tunde. Ogonlana Tunde, you ready to get down today?
[00:00:48] Speaker B: Yes, sir, Craig Mack style.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: All right, all right. Now before we get started, just so.
[00:00:54] Speaker B: You know, I recognize it, that's all.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, for sure, for sure. I appreciate the hat tip.
Now, before we get started, if you enjoy the show, I ask that you subscribe and like the show on YouTube or your podcast app. Doing so really helps the show out. Now recording on January 21, 2025 and jumping right in. Today we saw artists, many artists perform at inauguration related events and a few were getting substantial criticism and pushback online. Artists like Snoop and Nelly, lots of criticism, know, for performing at these events and quote, unquote, supporting Trump or, you know, just, just lending their fame and popularity to the inauguration events. And you know, this, some of this criticism was very extreme. Oh, I'm never going to listen to these people again. Some of it was just calling out, looking at older comments that Snoop had made, for example. But Tunde, what are your thoughts on this backlash received? Do you think it's fair and what do you think that this is? Or do you think this is something that's gone too far?
[00:01:52] Speaker B: I mean, I don't know, I'll say this, I don't know about fair or unfair. I mean, look, first of all, we live in a country with freedom of speech. So everyone does have a right to share their opinions about how they feel about things. But I guess what I feel like is this is, it's kind of, it perpetuates more of this kind of constant outrage that we see in this constant reactionary behavior that I feel like we see in our media, just general media and kind of, it's the way our society, the way we deal with each other now.
And I recognize because the way you brought it in, you know, the intro here pointed out certain things that, yeah, he said things negative about Donald Trump in the past and said things I read, you know, about the 2017 inauguration, you know, was bashing anyone that thought to perform there. And now he's supporting this inauguration, the ball of the crypto ball. I mean, he wasn't formally asked to be part of the inauguration, but I get it. He said yes to something on behalf of Donald Trump, and it's rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, and I'm sure some people are very happy about it.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Well, and he, in that instance, is Snoop. Snoop had specific comments back in 2017 about criticizing people that would perform at the inauguration. And Snoop, to be fair, 100%, it wasn't an actual inauguration event. It was an event taking place that was connected to the inauguration, but it wasn't a formal, and it was a crypto ball that was.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:24] Speaker A: You know, with people that were there for the inauguration, but it wasn't an inauguration event.
[00:03:29] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's my point of saying that whether it was officially or not, obviously it's connected to Donald Trump's win and him becoming president. And people are going to associate Snoop Dogg now with having said yes to Donald Trump about something. And. And I think that's. My point is saying it's. It's. It's a little bit similar, not 100%, but to some of the criticism I saw when both Trump and Obama were sitting next to each other at the Jimmy Carter funeral and look like they just behaving like two normal human beings. And a lot of people just had a problem with that. And so I think this is going to be, you know, personally, I don't care about the two men sitting next to each other having a good time or Snoop saying yes to performing at anything involved with Trump.
For me, personally, it's like, all right, you know, like this. This is the world we're in. And, you know, should everybody be constantly boycotting everything Donald Trump does from this day on for the next four years? No, I don't think so. So that's my general stance on it. Yeah. You know, so I'll pass it back to you. Yeah.
[00:04:32] Speaker A: No, I mean, I think we can distinguish here from, like, if. If Snoop was, let's say, or Nelly were performing at a grand opening of a Trump hotel, that, to me would be a different thing than the inauguration type of things. Like, the inauguration is supposed to be for all Americans. That's not necessarily just for Trump. That is. And I think Nelly made that point. This is something that is about the United States of America and the transfer of power and peaceful transfer of power and all these other things. And you cannot support Donald Trump and still recognize the importance and the tradition behind the inauguration and recognize that it's a significant event. And I think that's kind of almost. We can't all be always in hyper partisan mode. You know, like, granted, yes, if you're not happy that Trump won, then you might be emotional and say, oh, well, I hope that people I like don't go and help them make it a great inauguration or make it a nice. Make a great inauguration wasn't really intentional, but the idea that you don't want to help them know, put on a good show and everything like that. But I mean, at a certain point, you got to give it a race, like a rest. This isn't constructive to say, oh, well, Snoop shouldn't perform at this crypto ball, or Nelly shouldn't perform at, at the inauguration because we just don't like Donald Trump. Like, you can't just be in this constant emotional. And I think you're right. Like, it's, it's interesting to bring. Like, this is kind of what our, our media kind of is trying to put us in these camps all the time where we're constantly angry and emotional about everything. And this just really doesn't strike me as something to be really emotional about. Like, this is, this is the inauguration. The dude won, you know, whether you what if you're happy, about whether he won, if you're not, if you think he won fair and square, if you don't, he won. I mean, we're moving forward right now and the time for all that stuff is passed. And so we move forward. We have the inauguration. That's something again for all Americans that we continually able to have these inaugurations and peaceful transfer of power is something we should all be proud of. So I understand, I understand the emotional reaction, and I'm not going to condemn the emotional reaction of people being mad about it. I think, hey, if that's you, that's fine. I just think you should understand that you're just being emotional. You're just be. It's not constructive. That's you, you know, seeing your ex on Instagram and just hating, you know what I'm saying? Just being mad, you know what I mean? Like, oh, they over there having a good time, yada, yada, yada, like, that's what that is. And that's human. And so, you know, whatever. I'm not gonna say that something's wrong with a person who's doing that, but let's just all recognize that, yeah, that's just an emotional reaction which you're allowed to have, and it's not constructive at all.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: You know, hey, man, why you gotta bring up painful memories? Come on. You know, that's not fair. It's somebody. Somebody out there thinking about their ex and when they saw them on social media having dinner with somebody they don't like, you know, the whole thing, man.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: Yeah, they are. That person's already hot about the inauguration, and now I made it worse.
[00:07:10] Speaker B: As you said that, I think that's how a lot of people felt with Obama and Trump sitting next to each other. And I'm sure it was both sides. I'm sure there's Trump fans that hated to see Trump, you know, having a good time with Obama. There's Obama fans that definitely hated to see Trump do. I mean, Obama having a.
[00:07:25] Speaker A: See, that's the gamification that we got to watch out for, because it's like, you see that also, like, that's kayfabe. That's that WWE type of stuff where it's like, oh, well, the iron sheet can't be seen at a bar with Hulk Hogan because that breaks the.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: The.
[00:07:40] Speaker A: The. The facade.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: You know, it's funny, James, because you, like. I mean, look, I'll say it this way. I'm the type of person that. And not to sit here too my own horn. Hopefully no one thinks I'm doing that, but it just. I tend to observe how I feel in these moments, and then I kind of introspect and, you know, we all can learn a lot about ourselves. And when I saw Obama and Trump having a good time at the Carter funeral, it made me feel good, honestly. Like, I just was like, you know, like, oh, that's cool. You know, fucking two guys can get along, you know, like that. And I get it. How people feel, like you said, it's a great analogy you say is like, a lot of people do react emotionally and are triggered. Let me say it that way, in the same way that, like, you say if they see someone they care about, an ex or a very close family member, kind of just, you know, caucusing or hobnobbing with someone who they really feel like they don't like. And we all understand what that initial kind of feeling, that triggering feeling is. And that's what I'm saying. Like, like looking at how people are so emotional and react to these things.
And also, I mean, let's. Let's extrapolate this out into a bigger picture. Like, what does that mean for us, you know, as individuals in our own personal life? Like, I'm just saying, like, if I'm walking around all day triggered, because I'm upset about who's talking to who on that I see on the news, or because some artists performed. I mean, like, the people that are as angry about Snoop performing at the Trump inauguration, to me, are as delusional and emotionally over their skis, let me put it that way, as the people that were so upset about Taylor Swift during a Super bowl, literally less 11 months ago, almost a year ago, because she just told people to vote. And then all these people are making this huge opinion about what a celebrity is doing based around their politics and, or, you know, before Snoop, it was the country singer who was going to sing for the inauguration now. And so Carrie Underwood. And so that's all I'm saying, James, is when I look at this, I'm looking at, man, so many people who consider themselves on different ends of the political spectrum behave the same way. They just get hysterical when there's something.
[00:09:55] Speaker A: That the same thing is happening to them, you know, like that what they're, they're, what they're consuming, the environments that they're placing themselves in is taking them to these places. Because I think that's a good analogy. I mean, I think, you know, Jelly Roll, you know, another artist got some criticism a couple of months back about this, and his comments were similar to Nelly. Like, look, this is the office of the president, you know, like, if Biden wants me to, you know, ask me to do something, I'm going to do it because, you know, like, that's cool. The press, the president asked me if Trump, you know, when he's the president or about to be president, he asked me, I'm going to do that, too, because that's, hey, that's, that's me interacting with the office of the president for the country that I, you know, that I love, so to speak. And so, but for, for people in this, that are in this kind of, I don't want to say bubble, but we are, A lot of us are being driven into these kind of these bubbles, the, these, you know, silos or whatever you want to call it in terms of the media that we're consuming, where it's turning us into that it's turning us into, you know, Yankee fans and Red Sox fans, and we're we're just kind of looking at everything the other one does as being negative. And ultimately, like, I do have ideological disagreements with, you know, the, the, the, the president that's taking office right now. But I, I, I have to recognize, and I have to sober myself to a certain degree that that's not all that there is, you know, that's, that's not all there is. And then we'll talk in a second about, okay, so if that is the case, what, what are there more constructive ways to deal with it? But like, you know, I'm reminded just kind of of the. So many things. The way that our country was. With the way that our country was set up and with, you know, like a president like George Washington directly addressing this type of stuff. We're set up to try to tame these passions that we, they understand that we, they understood that we feel, we can see that we feel these passions when it, when we get kind of, you know, partisan or home teamish, you know, about these things where we start getting angry and mad about things that aren't really a part, aren't really that serious, you know, and then we get so caught up and we can't see the big picture because it's like we're so emotional, which by the way is very profitable for media companies. You know, so it, there's a benefit, there's someone actively trying to put people in this state because there's a, there is a profit motive to put people in this state. But you know, to, to try to control these passions of men. And I mean, George Washington went so far as to, to condemn partis party, political parties, period. Say, like, look, if you guys have parties, if we have parties, this is what's going to happen, you know, like. And so it's. So he lost that kind of fight, you know. But nonetheless, we got to be aware of these things because there are places where we should be fighting and, and arguing and making our case. And there are places where it's like, well, actually this isn't it, you know, at least again from being constructive, it's normal to have the natural emotional reaction which again, have it all you want, but just know in your mind that it's not something that's not taking you to a place that's going to help you get what you ultimately want. You know, that's just going to have you spinning your wheels and maybe there's a psychological payoff at some point, great. But that's. You'll still be in the same position four years later or two years later or whatever. If, if that's the end of your kind of interaction with it. So. But I do want to ask like. Well, go ahead real quick. Real quick.
[00:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I was going to say because what you're describing there, the passions is kind of normal humanity.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: You know, just normal human societies. And what you're alluding to. With George Washington and the way that this country was established. I mean, and you've said it in different discussions. That's what has made America exceptional.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what makes America an exception, which by definition, by definition makes America exceptional. Is like we are.
[00:13:11] Speaker B: And.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Yeah, go ahead. Intentionally. That's what I mean.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Like let's, let's call it out. What is it that makes America exceptional is that the system was designed to set up to try and help us as humans go around our passions. Right. And be able to compromise. That's the co. Equal branches of government, you know, the judiciary, the legislation.
[00:13:29] Speaker A: All these things intentionally done. Yes, correct.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: The fact we have a House of Representatives and a Senate, the idea that they need to compromise, you know, before legislation sent to the President for signature, all that. So the, the, there's a lot of mechanisms that were put in place on purpose and reason why I want to just stay on this is because as you're talking, it makes me realize that this whole thing with left and right in the United States culture today is very similar to kind of, if you look at what the founding fathers backdrop was of the prior kind of 100, 150 years was the Catholics and Protestants in Europe, sorry, in England primarily. And really what is that? It was kind of like a slow moving iceberg war like battle of culture and ideas of how to best deal with Christianity and all that. Today we're doing it based on how to best set up the United States, you know, whether Democrat or Republican. And at the end of the day, if, if, if. So if George Washington were to take a time machine to today, he might ask us, hey, who won that, that battle between the Protestants and the Catholics? And what would we say today? We'd kind of say, well, you know, no one really won. It kind of just diffused. And you know, both, both still exist and they coexist and all that. And I feel like we should learn from that lesson because I'm going to assume in times like the Hundred Years War, I mean, to think about 100 years is a long time, that's more than a whole lifespan for a human, that people were fighting about how to best interpret basically Christianity. Right. Whether you're Catholic or Protestant today it might be Shia and Sunni in the Middle east. And here in America it's Democrat, Republican, liberal versus Conservative. So I think if we can take that long arc and look, if we got in a time machine and fast forward two, 300 years and asked somebody, hey, who won between the MAGA and the Democrats or the Red and the blues in America, that person will probably look at us the same way we look at the Catholic and Protestants and say, well, no one really won. It kind of diffused itself. But in the interim, looking back, a lot of people got hurt trying to have these arguments.
And I just think we can learn from taking a look at, you know.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: That factions, you know, like having these perpetual factions, it's not constructive at the very least, you know, like, you wouldn't say that the, the, the, the, the Christianity became stronger because of that, you know, for sure. And so, like, you can look at it and say, well, this isn't something that's going to make America stronger, you know, so, but looking forward, is there, like, we talk about what's not constructive and so forth. And so, you know, like, but, but do you think there are constructive ways to that people who may not have agreed with, like these people that are upset about Snoop or upset about Nelly or whatever? Like, are there constructive ways or ways that would be more constructive for their energy to be spent right now? I mean, ways that may not be as profitable for media companies, but, but nonetheless, things that, that are there, I mean, what should they be doing? Should they be trying to like, boycott everything, you know, oh, or, or should it be targeted and say, okay, well, we may not going to engage here, but we are going to engage there or anything like that. What do you think?
[00:16:24] Speaker B: No, I think number one, you make a good point about the kind of media that probably, I'm sure no matter what people try and do, that someone's gonna try and profit off making, you know, eyeballs out of it. Yes, exactly. So we have to accept that. But I do think yes. I mean, I. So I think there's a couple things going on. One is my answer would be yes. I do think people should not do the traditional, oh, resist and all this stuff if you disagree. What Donald Trump or, you know, his administration going forward, I think, number one is people should have a little bit of patience to step back and let things play out. Let's see what happens.
Because again, you also don't want to be Chicken Little at Disguise Falling or the boy that Cried Wolf if a lot of the fears that people have don't come to pass. Now, I personally believe that pretty much everything we heard from Donald Trump come out of his mouth on the campaign trail. He's going to attempt to do. I totally believe that. But I'm not going to be in the street, you know, with my hair on fire about any of it. Let's see what happens if some of it is. Deserves a hair on fire? Then maybe I'll burn some of this hair I don't have. And, and if it doesn't, it doesn't. I mean, I think that's, and I think that's kind of a couple of things. Like when you look at whether it's the hip hop performers that we discuss or even the tech Bros, people like Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos, people that we know have not been allies, let's say, to Trump and MAGA in the past, I think when we're seeing all these different groups and factions participate in the inauguration and kind of look like they're giving this endorsement to the incoming administration, I think there's a lot to be said there. Number one, it's all about power. I mean, and that's not abnormal. This isn't new to Trump.
This is, this is, every president, you know, people want to cozy up to power. But I do think there's something of a kind of tacit or unspoken admission that Trump won. You know, he won the popular vote. This is the second time he's going to be president.
The country has had a long time to vet him now. It's been a decade. And you know, so I do think that this is a sign of a cultural shift, kind of like the Reagan Revolution of 1980. It's, it's, people have seen what's going on and I think they're saying, look, you know, this, this, like you said, if he's president again and I'm asked or invited to participate this time, I'm going to go and check it out. Unlike last time, which one. It was more of a resistance. So. Yeah, I mean, I think. Well, but see, it's a wait and see.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: Those are loaded terms though, because a resistance versus resisting things you may not agree with is like a resistance actually references something that has existed. People consider themselves the resistance and they were going to push back on everything you did almost in a way that, and I think this is what I would caution against. Like, I remember in 2009, you know, and Rush Limbaugh in 2008, 2009, Rush Limbaugh is out there saying, we, we are, we want Obama to fail. And you know, like, we just complain about everything he does and we just, everything that he does, we're going to push back against. And so I would imagine that that's not the, the approach that people from the center left would want to take. Is that okay? Yeah, we're just going to do what Rush Limbaugh did, but in the inverse to Trump. So I think also that one, and I do think that when, when, when he goes too far, when he says, okay, I'm gonna do something that's against the law or against the Constitution, I do think we should push back as we the people. I mean, that's kind of what our role is in this political system. That's why there's freedom of speech and so forth. So pushing back is one thing, you know, if there's lawsuits filed and all that other kind of stuff. But I do think that part of the problem that we have now, there have been so many warnings for so long about so many things that are gonna happen, and he was elected anyway. And so some of that, at this point, some of this stuff has to play out because clearly the warnings, oh, this is going to happen, this is going to happen, this is going to happen. The warnings aren't working, so it has to play out and people have to see it. This is kind of like that living memory thing. Like, we lived through the Great Recession, so to speak, because the living memory of what led to the Great Depression faded away. And then the deregulation happened in the late 90s, early 2000, which led us to another crash. Like that wouldn't have happened in 1970 because there were still too many people alive that saw the lead up to the Great Depression and what the deregulation did, and they would have been like, no way. But once a certain number of people, once there's enough living memory, that's gone. Societies do tend to make the same mistakes over and over again. So all of this smart people warning like, hey, well, once we go down this road, this might happen, and this might happen, this might happen. All that's been said, and in the face of all that, this guy got put in the office. So at this point, and this is not something that is exciting to say, but at this point, some of this stuff has to play out so that you can say, then, see, this is what happened when you allow this to happen or when you go this direction in a society. And so I think the focus for people who either ideologically or just in general aren't supportive of Trump's agenda, it has to be about internal, it has to be about organizing and bringing in new leadership. Clearly, the leadership that has brought you to this point can't get the job done. Those people should not be in the leadership anymore. They need to be moved out. You need a new generation of leadership coming up, because the people that are there are ineffective and ill equipped to deal with the world as it is today, regardless of whatever they've done in the past, and also bring in new ideas because clearly your ideas aren't resonating, you know, to, to the same degree. So this is the time to kind of look inward and figure out how you can best sell the American people on a better vision than just, you can't go to that guy because that what, what you just did failed despite all of the dire warnings that you had. And so, I mean, I think that's where you got to be constructive is again, organize new leadership, new ideas and new ways to present this stuff. Because, yeah, this, the way our country works is you're going to have another bite at the apple here coming up pretty soon. And, and if you're recycling the same stuff that you did two years ago, four years ago, and all that other stuff, you might end up with the same results. And then that's only your fault then at that point, because you spent all this time just every step of the way complaining and saying, oh, you know, this is going to be the end of the world. Oh, this is going to be the end of the world. Oh, this is going to be end of the world. It's like, well, that message isn't going to. Just isn't going to keep working out for you, especially if it hasn't in the past. So any last thoughts before we get out of here?
[00:22:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. No, just. Yeah, I agree with everything you said. And I think it's just, it's interesting to watch this because the pushback specifically to the hip hop artists, I think, and we seem to be agreeing that everyone needs to take a step back and let this play out. Because I 100% agree with you that the Democrats this election proved it, for whatever reason, lost the confidence of the country and were unable to gain it. Because after it's all said and done now, I mean, it looks like Donald Trump won the election by 400,000 more votes than he received in 2020, but Kamala Harris received millions of votes less than Joe Biden. So clearly that's evidence of that fact that Democrats were not able to motivate the country. But then the Republican. This is why I find this all interesting, these strange bedfellows, because one thing I like about seeing Snoop Dogg and these guys accept the invitation to enter into the MAGA space is on the same day that apparently Snoop and Nelly perform at the inauguration ball, Elon Musk was somewhere else on a stage giving what appeared to be a zig Heil you know, a Nazi salute. So what I'm saying is it's going to be interesting to see how this new big tent of the Trump era, Republican Party and American right, deal with this. And my point is, is that I'd rather see people like Snoop Dogg, someone with it somewhat within that tent, because that means they got to get dealt with too. And they're going to be able to hopefully have some sort of conversation within those tents as well, versus them not being in there at all. So we all got to wait and see how this plays out.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: That's true. The only concern you have there is whether or not those people, like the. I'm not. This isn't specific to Snoop, you know, or whoever, but just whoever's in that tent, whether they're on there on their own accord or whether they're on there on some larger accord for people that may be similar to them. And so, and that's what you. That's the risk you run in this situation, is that everybody might be just, you know, like Zuckerberg might be just looking out for his own, but he might not be in that tent saying, hey, well, we got to make sure that we take care of Jewish people too, you know, like, so you can't always project onto someone just because they're there that they're going to represent some larger interest. And so, but I think you're like, it's got to play out. I mean, and you, you point to the Mustang like, that's.
[00:25:17] Speaker B: People were.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: So everybody's warning, oh, you know, like, this stuff is fascist and this is this and that, and this is that. Well, you know, like, you got to let Elon Musk show you, you know, or show society that that's what this is, and then have better approaches for how to get that information out than you had in the past as well. And so that's what I mean. Like, there's work that needs to be done internally for people who, the people who were who just lost this round. Because even if the, the things play out as bad as, as they. They as you warn or somewhere near that, you got it. You're the, the way you were messaging before didn't work. And so you got to come up with ways that you can message these things in the future. So ultimately, again, the emotional reaction is, we both agree there that the emotional reaction is understandable, it's human, it's natural. But just know, you know, catch yourself early enough in that once you do it, like, have it, you know, you let that release out or Whatever, but know that that's not going to get you any closer to where you want to get in society. So if that's what you want to do, you're going to have to move from the emotion to the constructive sooner rather than later. So. But I think we can wrap this topic from there. We appreciate it.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: It's boring though. It's fun to be emotional.
[00:26:22] Speaker A: There's a release, you know, there's a release involved. I mean, hey, that's, that's, that guided, you know, human societies for a long time, you know, the constructive being constructive be damned.
So, you know, but hopefully we can, we can take some of this energy though and move it in the direction to deliver different results in the future. But yeah, we appreciate all for joining us to this, on this, on this part of this episode. Join us on part two as well and we'll talk to you soon.
All right, so for our second topic today, we Tunde, you sent me a piece earlier this week talking about techniques. It was an article talking about there that these techniques that you can use to train yourself to be less pessimistic and more optimistic and that while some of this stuff can be genetic based, but more of it tends to be based on your own mindset habits, approach and so forth. So what, what are your thoughts on, on the, the revelations that we're given here? Do you think this is actionable stuff or this is kind of maybe, you know, too aspirational, you know, and, and out in left field a little bit?
[00:27:21] Speaker B: No, I definitely, I definitely think it's actionable because I reading the article, I realized that I somewhat naturally do some of these brain hacks on myself or have in the past.
But I just think as you're opening up, I'm thinking as our first part was pretty pessimistic or dealt with people's pessimism around certain topics around what entertainers do. That's why I'm laughing in my head. Yeah, maybe this is a good follow up to part one as we can help everyone who's frustrated then maybe find a little bit of peace mentally and optimism as to where the future is going. But I think it's a good topic and I'm glad we're discussing it. That's why I wanted to share with you is because we do have a lot of pessimism in our world. I think more so than at least it feels like to many of us things are a lot more pessimistic than they were maybe in recent memory in the last couple generations. And it doesn't mean that humanity is going through much worse things, which I find interesting. Most of us aren't experiencing something like being enslaved or we're not being marched to a gas chamber or anything like that.
But I think this perception game is important and we have a lot of negativity around us through the algorithms and a lot of things we discuss in our show regularly. And so I think the ability to, for us as individuals to learn how to bring ourselves to a more optimistic mindset just on a regular basis, I think is actually very important. So.
[00:29:02] Speaker A: No, no, for sure.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: I appreciate you noticing a benefit to this topic.
[00:29:06] Speaker A: No, no, for sure. I mean, and what struck me when you sent this actually, and we referenced, I referenced this a few weeks ago, but just something I had read talking about how the mistaking of kind of human nature and human evolution that humans spent most of their time as prey hiding from big cats or big, you know, big predators. And that mentality still lives with us, particularly because of our heightened awareness and fixate, tend to fixate on negativity and negative things and threats, so to speak. And this pessimism piece, because I think that we're exposed to more pessimism now than we ever have been because pessimism is, has shown to be the most engaged, more engaging than optimism. You know, like you, you, there is an audience for optimistic messages and self help and all that kind of stuff. But it seems like there's a much larger and more persistent audience for people who are out here warning you about this and oh, everything is going to be terrible and here's why. And yada, yada, yada, that seems to draw more eyeballs more consistently than any kind of optimistic message. So I do think, because that fact and because the way our media is set up to be fixated on drawing eyeballs, so they're going to be biased towards that type of messaging. The, the ability to try to keep yourself from, or to try to leverage or to pull yourself into more of an optimistic mindset kind of will come on the individual. You can't look to society to help you with that because society is actually going to inundate you with messages to push you in a more pessimistic direction because that's profitable for the people who are pushing messages. So I thought this was very, very helpful for that reason. And it's okay. Yeah, we're going to, you're going to be bombarded everywhere you look with things that may bias you more towards pessimism. And so what can you do to then kind of Steel yourself to prepare yourself to deal with that in the same way like you're going to be bombarded with images of sweet treats and ultra processed food and you need to do things to kind of steel yourself to not have to deal with that so much or to be able to overcome that either from a discipline standpoint and, or from an exercise and taking care of your body standpoint. So this is, I mean I read this and I'm like, oh yeah, this is kind of like reading a workout magazine is giving me workout techniques or reading some kind of article about diet and how to what I can eat so that I'm not craving ultra processed snacks all day and stuff like that. So it's, it just deals with your mind, you know, and it deals with these tricks that you're doing with your mind.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah, let me pick that up. That's interesting because I think just like with food and nutrition and exercise, part of that journey, if we want to improve those areas of our lives, so to speak, is actually learning about like their foundations, right? Like, like what is, how does, how does the food I put in my body actually affect my, my cells? You know, how do I digest it all that, how do I, how do, when I exercise, how do my muscles, you know, respond to things, hydration, hormones and all that.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: And this is like, how does what I allow in my mind affect my.
[00:32:05] Speaker B: Well being and my mentality and also kind of the foundational nature of what is optimism and pessimism, I found, I learned, you know, in this article is interesting. I never even thought to ask what kind of percentage or makeup of optimism or pessimism is hereditary versus nature versus nurture. And the article mentions that they estimate about 25% of optimism is genetic. So.
[00:32:30] Speaker A: But they do say that that's kind of, that's still a rough.
[00:32:33] Speaker B: Yeah, like that's not, I mean if.
[00:32:35] Speaker A: The only thing that seems to be agreed on is that it's, it's less genetic than it is, it's less nature than it is nurture, like your habits can, can override whatever your nature is. But you know, like there is some amount of, that's kind of some amount of it that is, you know, true to your personality, so to speak.
[00:32:51] Speaker B: Yeah, that's, that's exactly where I was going. Is that, that's why I said if that is accurate with a big if it just tells us that our ability to influence our own optimism or pessimism is real. Because like we said, if it's, if it's more nurture versus nature, then that's something. But then the other thing is because they give an example about things like childhood and all that. And I think again, the more we learn about human psychology, the more I think the nurture part does come from things like childhood. If someone had a very nurturing, loving childhood, supportive parents, that kind of thing, chances are they may be better equipped as adults to be optimistic and be more resilient versus someone who was criticized a lot as a child or maybe put down a lot, you know, might have a lower self esteem when they're older as an adult and with a lower self esteem, maybe it's tougher to be optimistic when you're facing tough times and resiliency. So that's to me where, where it becomes interesting where it's, it's, it's kind of like sometimes the eye, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And this optimism, pessimism thing, it definitely kind of falls into a similar thing that it's the individual themselves that that kind of, it radiates outward from. And last thing I'll say that I, that I took from this, which is interesting.
[00:34:12] Speaker A: Well, let me, let me respond to what you just said because I want you to give, give that too. But yeah, I think what you said actually was my biggest takeaway from this and that is like I am, I don't know that I am by nature a optimistic person, but I definitely am very conscious of the, and I have been for as long as I can remember of the thoughts that I allow into my mind in this way. In particular, I've always wanted to be and tried to be and like to be resilient. This may date back to, I don't know if this is, you know, school going back and you know, just kind of wanting to be able to reach a certain level. I think it really comes from sports more. I played a lot of sports when I was young, whether just in the neighborhood or then organized sports and stuff. And I wanted to be resilient. I didn't want to be, I never wanted to be the person that would be a quitter or give up or anything like that. And the connection between resilience and optimism is, was really notable because what I realized that I do is I'm telling when I particularly if I'm competing in something or if I'm doing something, I'm, I'm telling myself things and trying to interpret things in ways that increase my resilience, that make it so I won't quit, give up anything like that. Like I won't allow myself to do that. So what do I need to tell myself to keep myself in the right mindset, to keep pushing forward? And the, the, the direct connection between being able to, to look at things from an optimistic standpoint and being able to, to, to show and prove, resist resilience was mind blowing to me because like I said, I don't know if I'm, if I'm overly optimistic. Generally I feel like I do think optimistic thoughts, but if, if so I'm sure that that's because that is the kind of where I've trained myself to be. And then, you know, I'm sure there's some, you know, with where I was raised and stuff too from a resilience standpoint. And I like the connection to those was, was, it was amazing to me because I like I had never thought of that before. But yeah, if resilience is important to you, then this is something that you know, like, is very, very, very like it's directly connected to that and it's something you got to internalize.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: So.
[00:36:04] Speaker A: Yeah, but you're where, where you saw. Go ahead.
[00:36:08] Speaker B: No, the. So say, say where was I going again? Because when you said what I saw.
[00:36:14] Speaker A: Well, I was, I thought you were about to go to kind of if there were any of the techniques that stood out to you and, or something.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah, so that's right because I was, I was going through the article with the. So certain things like, like they say in the article, knowing your set point, which is where you fall on the spectrum of optimism or pessimism, which again is a. These are things that I think that's.
[00:36:34] Speaker A: Like your, your default where you, yeah. Where you, where you would be if you made no effort whatsoever.
[00:36:39] Speaker B: Exactly. And, and I think these are things, I think you know, our, our school systems and all that. I think I wish would be better at bringing this to us in middle school, high school to learn these things because think about what that means. A set point. You got to know where you're at to even start this, this journey of, of am I, you know, more optimistic? Pessimism. How do I, how do I deal with myself along this way? And what do we say before? What other things that are. Do we find important? Do we have to know? Kind of a set point. Like we talked about exercise. Yeah, right. Like I kind of got to know how strong or weak I am before I start doing bench press or push up, how many push ups I should be doing and all that to make sure.
[00:37:14] Speaker A: And how these things affect you as well. Like some people can get in and work out once or twice a week and have super results. And other people got to be super diligent and, you know, like, be there three or four days a week and eat clean and all that just to get decent results. And so kind of knowing how your body responds.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: And that's why I'm thinking the same thing with nutrition, right? Am I lactose intolerant or do I have issues with this or that before I start a new diet regime or something? And so, yeah, if we want to deal, help ourselves understand and maybe improve on things like being less pessimistic again, I got to learn, okay, what's my set point? Where am I at now on this spectrum? And that got me thinking about another thing, and that's where I was going too, which was this, this idea. Like, we're so. I think just. Whether it's cultural or just a human thing, I don't know. But I feel like we're so caught on this binary.
It's either this or that.
So when you say someone is optimistic or pessimistic, it's kind of like, oh, well, if they're one, then they're not the other.
[00:38:14] Speaker A: Yeah, they're one all the time.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: It can't be one or the other. And again, yeah, it's like this idea of a spectrum is real, right? Like. Like, well, maybe we're all a little bit of both and it's okay.
[00:38:24] Speaker A: And that's talk about that actually in the piece that even an optimistic person is pessimistic sometimes. And even a pessimist. Yeah, of course.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: I mean, you could be the most optimistic person. You just lost a parent or a loved one or something. You're not going to be jumping for joy that moment. You know, you're allowed to have a little pessimism come in. And pessimistic people also have bouts and moments of optimism. I mean, it's just. It's just so understanding all that, I think is very important. That. And I think we're learning it all in general. Those people that pay attention to some of this type of science, where everything is kind of connected, we're learning that ecosystem doesn't just mean nature, like the outside nature. Things like the microbiome in your gut is connected to your, you know, levels of depression and your mental health. Those are things, brain chemistry connected to your.
[00:39:11] Speaker A: What's living in your gut, which is like. Yes.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: I mean, so maybe we didn't appreciate that 50 years ago, 100 years ago, but, you know, we're learning all that now. So I'M sure optimism and pessimism. Someone could also probably do some studies that shows is connected to what you eat as well or how much you exercise.
[00:39:25] Speaker A: Well, you know, what's interesting about that though, is that, yeah, you say maybe we didn't appreciate that 50, 100 years ago, what you're saying. The we, though. The we is doing a lot of work there because that's like Western medicine.
[00:39:35] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right.
[00:39:35] Speaker A: Because like, there's, you know, there's like Eastern traditions that conceivably considered all this stuff connected for thousands of years, you know, and so a lot of that was.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. You're not saying acupuncture is a good example and all these other ways of being just.
[00:39:50] Speaker A: Here, let me throw one at you. Because one of the techniques they talk about and I. This one was. This one I think is harder to grasp, but, you know, meaning it's harder to the way our culture works. But practicing mindfulness was one of the things that do. And it's like, well, yeah, there's been cultures doing. Doing that for a long time, and practicing mindfulness seems to be one of the answers to every problem that people have. Like, oh, well, you know, what a surprise.
Which is probably true. You know, like, I'm not saying that laughing at that because it's like it's not true, but just laughing at it just like, yeah, that's probably a very.
[00:40:23] Speaker B: Powerful way about what you're saying. Our Western world is discovering that mindfulness matters at a time where, I mean, even just from part one. Right. Talking about some of the tech bros we're pushing on to the next generations. All these kids now that are absolutely stuck on their phones. Right? Yeah. They cannot even feel away to get two seconds of their own mind to learn, you know, so it's not that we don't know and all this. I just think this is an example. Humans can't stay out of their own way. Well, but all this stuff's important. We're gonna, we're gonna process it out of our society.
[00:40:59] Speaker A: Well, but this isn't. This isn't something that's just now like, we've made attention a commodity and that we. They're better at it now, basically, than they were 50, 100 years or 50, 60 years ago. But ever since really you had radio, TV, like, attention has become a commodity in that way. And so, yeah, that makes it harder to practice. Mindfulness.
So that one was notable to me just because, like I said, that seems to be able to help you in a Lot of different ways, but the one I thought that was really where the rubber meets the road was kind of. It's got reframing the way you see things, you know, like to be able to reframe your thoughts. And so something happens. And what is the story you tell yourself about that? About what just happened? What's the story you tell yourself? I'm conscious of that. Like, that's something that I'm very conscious of and actually try to work with my kids on that. There are ways to tell yourself a story. We have so much conversation with ourselves that I think it's important just be aware of the things you tell yourself. And I'm this, I'm that, I'm this, I'm that, and I can't do this or I can do that. Like, the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves seem to be very powerful. And this seems to be one of the places where this really matters. And so something negative happens to you, it can be a problem or it can be an opportunity, you know, or a place where you can then, okay, well, I'm. I can train myself to try to look, to find the best. Make the best of situations, or to kind of ruminate in the negativity of it. And, you know, and so, like, that's where, you know, like, if you can even once or twice, you know, in a week or whatever, take something where you normally might ruminate on it and try to reframe that in a. What's the opportunity here? Where. What can I do to. To make this something that I can learn from or grow from or do better from that? See that. That can make a really substantive change in your own outlook, your own view of yourself, and then your own kind of place on this optimism and pessimism balance of how often, you know, how often you're looking at things from a pessimistic standpoint versus an optimistic standpoint.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: It's funny you're using big words like rumination. I gotta go to the dictionary.
[00:42:56] Speaker A: Jeez, you over there Googling?
[00:42:59] Speaker B: Yeah, like, shoot, now I'm glad I understood what you said. Made me feel smart.
[00:43:04] Speaker A: See, that's the story you tell yourself, man.
[00:43:06] Speaker B: Tell yourself.
[00:43:07] Speaker A: Telling yourself. That's a good story to tell yourself.
[00:43:10] Speaker B: No, but it's funny. It's good we shared this podcast together. We're on the same page in many ways, because that's exactly where I was going to end. And for the audience, we don't practice this. So it's a nice surprise that we're finishing in the same place because that was going to be my last words.
That words matter, which is part of the reframe your thoughts part. And I'm going to say something. My. My old friend will remain unnamed, you know, to protect him. But there's a true story of mine. I was in college, and, you know, I help some of my friends sometimes that needed it. And so one of my friends I used to help with some of his schoolwork and because he had a tough time on a few things. And I remember one day, and it really sang my heart when he said this. That's why it's a serious comment, but it's about words mattering.
He looked at me in my face because I think he got an A or a B or something on something I helped him with, which means I just basically did it for him. That's really what I mean by helped him with. And I just wanted to.
[00:44:14] Speaker A: But this is your friend. This isn't some kind of bully situation. This is not a bully.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: No, no, no. This is my buddy. This was a good friend of mine who I cared about and who was not the sharpest tool in the shed academically. We both played NCAA basketball together, so he was there on a scholarship. And he was a great guy. And I wanted to make sure he got through school. And so we definitely were friends. But he looked at me afterwards, after the grades came back, and he saw. And he looked me right in the face, I'll never forget. And he said, tunde, you're smart like a white person.
And my heart sank. Because he was a brother, right? Because my heart sank because I was 19 or 20 years old. And I knew in my heart that, man, this guy is going to be limited into where he goes in life. Because if he's already thinking like that, That's Psychological Warfare 101.
[00:45:04] Speaker A: That's the story he tells himself about himself, is that he is in a lower tier from an aptitude standpoint. Not that there are smart and dumb people that look all types of ways, but that his tier is a different tier than the majority tier that he sees around.
[00:45:21] Speaker B: And so. And so That's Psychological Warfare 101. So, you know, the psychological warfare of white supremacy works on some people. Yeah.
[00:45:31] Speaker A: One of the objectives of white supremacy is to make white people think that way and black people think that way.
[00:45:35] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what I was gonna say. It's a very powerful thing. And that's why I want to bring it up as a serious thing. Because when I saw that words matter, I thought about my old friend and you know, I just thought about that. Like, think about the idea of optimism or pessimism and the idea that if, if he found himself in a situation after that period in our lives and when I saw him, that he was again forced to have to deal with something academic. Think about the level of pessimism in his own mind because of what he tells himself about himself.
[00:46:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:09] Speaker B: You know what I mean? Think about if he's in an interview in a room full of white people asking him questions, he might clam up because he's pessimistic about himself. So.
[00:46:18] Speaker A: Or even if he has the right answer and somebody else has the wrong answer, but he will like in that same moat kind of turtle up and not give the right answer because he's like, oh well, you know, clearly I wouldn't be the one to have the right answer.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And so, and that's why I want.
[00:46:32] Speaker A: To add something real quick.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: Because I know we want to get out of here, but. And the thing that, that would do, like again, the two things I connected to this were the optimism, pessimism with the resiliency. What that also means though in that situation is that if he struggles with something academically, he won't have the resiliency that I'm going to work through this, I'm going to get through this because he's already, the story he's told himself is that this is out, this is out of my league anyway, you know, and so that's the, like you can see the connection.
[00:46:59] Speaker B: No, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's tough, man. And, and one of the things I, I've thought about over the years, when I think about it, and not again, not to like, this isn't about putting him down, it's just the reality of it right now. And I probably talked to him two years ago. We touch base every couple of years.
He is as same age or me might be a year older than me actually. So we're both in our late, tipping into our late 40s and he's a janitor at a school that is owned by, it's a charter school owned by one of our friends that used to play basketball. And I think about it, that man.
[00:47:31] Speaker A: You're not identifying the guy but you give a lot of details.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: No, but what I, what I'm saying is that we all as 19 year old kids found ourselves in the exact same place. That's kind of my point, that we were all equals at that point. And now here I am, an entrepreneur Blah, blah, blah. And he's a janitor. And it's not because I'm better than him. I want to make that clear. I'm not putting him down and all that. I think it's because of the stories we told ourselves in our head along the journey, and it's about that optimism versus pessimism and the ability to deal with resiliency. And unfortunately, because of how he already came to the same place that I met him, but with a different story he told himself, that probably affected, like we're talking the trajectory of how he was able to navigate over the last 25, 30 years of his life.
[00:48:21] Speaker A: When you struggle in a class, you might have responded differently than when he struggled in a class. You might. You might say, oh, no, exactly, I can get this. You know, let me. Let me buckle down and spend a little extra time, and I got it. Versus somebody who else who might not approach it that way and say, oh, if I'm struggling, I'm all is lost. Yeah. So I want to close with this part, though, because I think we, you know, this is. We're at the end of January right now about to go into Black History Month, and the, The. The connection you just made there, I just kind of want to make this explicit. This is why. And the people have identified in American society now the need to kind of highlight when a black person does this or a black person does that or when black people did this in history is because the stories we tell ourselves, so much of what people are exposed to which this affects the ability for. For. For a good portion of Americans, 10, 12% of Americans, which. Who are black Americans, to be able to achieve and to have resiliency, if the stories they're told growing up and so forth, and what they internalize is that they can't. That they. That they aren't on that same level, then they won't be able to have. You'll have a part of your society that just doesn't have resiliency and so forth. And so the. The efforts of society to not to. To be able to bring this other group of people in society up and say, okay, hey, yeah, don't have these stories where you tell yourself that you guys can't be a part of this, this culture, this society is good for all of us, good for all Americans, because we have to counteract the fact that messages have been told for so long to this segment of society that, no, no, no, no, no, you're not a part of this. You know, we're not going to Let you in and things like that. And so, like, it's about trying to reframe and repurpose some of these messages that people tell themselves, because no society is better off by having 12% of it just, you know, perpetually down and unable to pull itself up. So I just wanted to say that. Because that's. People sometimes wonder, well, why is that? You know, why, why, why does that exist? And that's what it's about, really.
[00:50:11] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I mean, I appreciate you finishing that, because I took. That was also very serious for me to bring that in. And. And I agree with you. And that's where this is the battle of culture. Right. Because we, you and I, right now, live in a state where the current governor banned the teaching of black history in public schools just in the last 18 months. So this is a battle. And what was his reasoning? His main reason was because he didn't want any kids to feel guilty or embarrassed. So, again, it's perpetuating the pessimism of a group of people like ours to not feel fully engaged in the story of the country, to save for the idea of saving someone else from harm when those people. I don't know how many white kids in high school right now are asking to be saved from information that, I mean, you and I would think doesn't harm them. Right.
[00:51:03] Speaker A: Well, it's. This is the bad projection. It's not even really, like. It's not direct harm. It's. It's the idea that someone might feel guilty because of this and that. And so. But it's really just a matter of control, you know, when he gets into that point. So. But I think that's a whole another topic.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: I'm about to start another show.
[00:51:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, we'll get into something with that, you know, next month.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: We gotta get out of here. Yeah, yeah.
[00:51:23] Speaker A: So. But we appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call. Like I see it. Subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what you think, send it to a friend. Till next time. I'm James Keys.
[00:51:30] Speaker B: I'm Tunde Oglana.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: All right, check out part one as well, and we'll talk to you soon.
I.
