Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hello, welcome.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Call It Like I See it presented by Disruption. Now, I'm James Keys, and in this episode of Call It Like I See it, we're going to discuss what we saw in the book the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho.
This book is a timeless story about self discovery, destiny, travel and treasure that has made an impression on readers from all over the globe for decades.
And so we wanted to take a look and give our thoughts on it.
Joining me today is a man who, like a character from the book, is from many places and likes to dispense timeless wisdom. Tunde. Ogunlana Tunde. Are you wearing your breastplate of gold this morning?
[00:00:56] Speaker A: Every morning, man.
Come on, bro.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: All right, cool. Then you're ready to roll then y.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Okay. I am the king.
All right.
[00:01:07] Speaker B: All right. Now we're recording this on October 4, 2020, and we continue our culture series today by doing some reading between the lines in the international best selling book the Alchemist by Paulo Coelho. The Alchemist was first published in Portuguese in 1988, with Coelho being from Brazil, and first published in English in 1993.
Now it follows the journey of a young Spanish shepherd boy from Andalusia in Spain.
He goes from there to ultimately to Giza in Egypt by way of Tangier, the Sahara Desert and the Al Fayoum oasis. And he seeks to live his personal legend and find buried treasure. Now, obviously, it's not that simple, but that's the overall art.
Now, the story is told in allegorical form, so the characters and occurrences can be appreciated on more than just a surface level. And the book can be enjoyable and insightful even on your second or fifth or 10th time through. Now, before we begin, I want to say that this podcast contains spoilers and advised that we are going to discuss key things that happened in the book. Now, we'll try not to give away the ultimate resolution, but there will be key elements of the plot and occurrences that took place throughout the book that are going to be discussed in some level of detail.
So, Tunde, to get us started, what did you enjoy most from a big picture standpoint about the book?
[00:02:33] Speaker A: Man, that's a tough question because there was a lot to enjoy.
I think that part of the overall arcing thing for me was just this. Like you just said, it's kind of like the simplicity of the book, but the way that one can. And I think you and I talked about it when we were just having conversations.
You know, I feel like I could listen to this book every 10 years and pull something else out of it.
Just because my own life journey will have made me probably aware of something that I may not have been aware of prior to listening to it. So I don't know how to. How to quantify that into one kind of sentence or saying. But that, to me, was the biggest part, and the part I most enjoyed about the book was it was simple, yet so complex.
Kind of like life, you know, like. Yeah, it was kind of straightforward, but the simplicity of it broke what you made of it.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: It's what you make of it.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what I mean. It's like the simplicity helps break down the complexities. And this is weird. Yeah. So that's why I'm stumped a bit. But. But that, to me, is the overarching thing that stuck out is the book was kind of like life, which is kind of cool.
[00:03:41] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And I would say in a similar way for me, and the way that it's like life is that the focus is on the journey.
There are many times in the book where a certain destination is talked about or referenced in a way that you feel it's imminent. But the actual meat of the book is never in where he actually gets to. It's always in how he gets there and all the things that happen along the way. And that's life. And so that's one of those things that if you're always so focused on the destination, you don't appreciate everything that's happening in your life. And so you actually need to realize that life is lived in. In between the starting point and the destination. That's where the life happens. And then, you know, the starting point is the starting point, and the destination is the destination. And there may be fulfillment ultimately at the destination, but there also has to be enjoyment, fulfillment, lessons, and all of those things in the journey as well, because that's where you're going to spend most of your time. And so that's, to me, was, you know, so it's a similar takeaway just in terms of how it mirrored life, you know, But I. From that standpoint, I enjoyed it. And then also the overall themes and things that they touched on fit in with that.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: So. Well, the first part of the book went into the daily life of the main character, Santiago, who actually, his name is only referred to in the voice. Yeah, it's just referred to as the boy throughout. I mean, I know you had a reaction to that as well, but just in terms of.
We start with his reaction to a recurring dream that he had that prompted him to go on this journey. And his daily life in Spain, though. And so what stood out to you in this first part of the book?
[00:05:24] Speaker A: Well, just to follow on that theme you just mentioned, the fact we only get his name once I found interesting right at the very beginning. And then the reference to him as the boy. I think as we talked about it, that I realized, as throughout listening to the audiobook, that helped me separate the character from a true outsider to, in my mind, thinking more about myself in that journey, which was just an interesting experience as a consumer of the book. I think that helped make this book a bit different than others that I've consumed, in a sense. But no, I think listening to it second and third time helped me with what you're asking, which is understanding the start of the journey, that this the part where he's in Spain.
Because what I found about the book.
Cool. And I say with a smile because it's a word I don't normally use unless I'm talking about one of my kids or a puppy, is he's like a cute kid, you know, like, he's just. The boy's just cute, you know, it's like he's so innocent, naive. He's a shepherd. And it's kind of that start of the journey. And, you know, even though it's the beginning of the journey, they sprinkle. You hear, you know, you realize this when you go through it a second time. Again, they sprinkle in parts of the journey in that initial part. But what I find interesting is the simplicity of his life, what he thinks is important at that point in the early part in Spain versus later on. So, like the merchant's daughter, for example, he's so like. He's like.
His goal is to shear his sheep in front of her so that she can see that he can do difficult things. And I'm thinking, that's what I mean. Like, after listening at the, you know, after getting through it the first time, now I realize when I heard that again, I'm thinking, like, damn, this kid just got. After going through the desert and going through wars and getting to the pyramid, you know, this kid was so simple and naive. Like, he wanted to just shear sheep in front of this chick.
[00:07:24] Speaker B: Yeah, to impress her. Yeah, just to impress her.
[00:07:26] Speaker A: Like that old school. And then, like, you see the dynamics between the human beings, right? Like, you know, my mom was Eastern European, and so I grew up with her telling me stories about gypsies, believe it or not, interesting and understanding and learning that the gypsies were like the pariahs Of Europe, you know, like, they had no nation. They had no home. They were the traveling wanderers and that. My mom told me, like, that's what they would do. Like, as you're a kid, scare you with these tales of, like, the gypsies are gonna come get you if you're not a good kid and all that. And so the fact that, like, he reverts to that.
The fortune teller lady was a gypsy, and he was, like, scared that he was gonna, like, that he potentially could get kidnapped, and he alludes to that. That is.
And I thought about Qanon. I thought about conspiracy. Yes. Yes.
[00:08:16] Speaker B: Yo, that's what I thought, too. I thought the exact same. We hadn't talked about this at all offline.
[00:08:20] Speaker A: They steal children. Yeah.
[00:08:22] Speaker B: I'm like, well, you know what I got out of that, though?
Like, the people aren't very creative. Like, everybody, like, when you want to paint someone as a villain, generally kidnapping kids and working for the devil seems to be where people go.
[00:08:38] Speaker A: Yeah. Because this was written in 88.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: Like, it is the same stuff they're saying that the people who. People who you don't like now people are saying, oh, they kidnap kids and they, you know, they worship the devil. And it's like, well, the same thing that people said.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: But that's what I'm saying. That's why it reminded me of my mom, because, like you said, my mom was born in 44. She figured when she was a little kid growing up in the 50s, whatever, you know, it's the same thing they were being told. I'm sure they were being told this 200 years ago. Exactly.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: I'm starting, whoever they didn't like, we
[00:09:04] Speaker A: should do some research on these gypsies and do a show about them. Poor gypsies, huh? They can beat up. But it's true. And that's what I started thinking, the same thing. Like, conspiracy. Like, it's amazing. And again, going back to just getting back to the overarching theme of the book. Right. It's so interesting how the book mirrors life.
And this was an example of that. Like, okay, in this society, in Spain, in this culture, the European culture, it's the gypsies that are the ones that are kind of, you know, take it on the chin for society, in a sense, everyone kind of dumps all their gripes and their assumptions and negative stuff on that group.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: They're the scapegoat.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And like you said, the minute he talked about kidnapping children and devil worship. And that's why I started thinking about Qanon and all of our conspiracy. I was like, it's funny how people just draw these conclusions. And it's like the most draconian, evil stuff that one can think of. They just assigned to certain groups of people. And I think you're right that when you said people aren't that creative, it made me realize for the first time you're right. Because I think it shows how common we are in society as human beings, that we really are that similar. Meaning, what does that tell me? At least I don't know about everyone else listening.
It's really about we assign these negative things to groups or people because we cared so deeply generally about these things. And I think about it, children and that part of life is one of the few things that every single culture and society has in common that it kind of takes as important and precious, right? The ability to have a childhood and be a child.
Like every society, race, religion, always say, okay, five, six year old kids, you know, they're off limits, you leave them alone type of thing. And you know, you're supposed to have, you know, want to treat children well. And so maybe that's really what it says is that we assign behavior that we think is so terrible to these groups and these quote unquote, others. And one of the things universally that's condemned is hurting children.
So, you know, not to get too
[00:11:17] Speaker B: off tangent, but no, but it's interesting you had that same thing. For me, I would say the two things, well, two things that stood out in particular, one you touched on, but I just wanted to say in a different way was also the simplicity of his life. The fact that as a shepherd, part of that profession, part of that being a shepherd was you slept outside all the time and you took your sheep and you got them food, got them water, and then you look for somewhere to sleep every night and it wouldn't be the same place because sheep have to move around. And so basically it was very interesting to me to see that and to see that as part of his life. And even as, as when he was interacting with one of the characters in the book, they were talking about shepherds versus bakers, you know, and bakers, you know, bakers have homes and, you know, people's parents would want them to marry a baker because they're, they're an important person. And it's like, oh man. So the shepherd, you know, who, you know, seems like a pretty cool enough, you know, job, so to speak, but that's. You're on the road all the time basically. And so it's like the traveling salesman. Almost obviously you're not sleeping outside. But just the different. The contrast in terms of his chosen profession. And he did that because he didn't want to go to the seminary. He wanted to move around. That's what I was going to say, which was interesting. But what I was actually wanted to say on this was, and I'm surprised I had the shepherd when ready to go, the simple life of the shepherd, because I figured you were going to talk about Melchizedek.
And to me, like, that was amazing. You know, the king of Salem, you know, which. That's a character that is, you know, through biblical lore and so forth has. It goes all the way back and that he was in this book and part. He introduced him to the concept of the personal legend and. Which is kind of like your destiny and things like that and following it. And so that was.
I could almost say that was inspirational to me just to hear someone talk like that, you know, as far as a higher purpose and things like that and. But not do so in a preachy way.
Everyone is constantly in this journey, whether you choose to participate in it or not. And the journey is toward to finding the best you.
And that was inspirational to me to hear that and to see that. And I've been through this book. I've read it in print many times and I've also listened to it. So I mean, I'm pretty familiar with the book. But that part always stands out to me and that character always stands out to me. And that's the character, by the way, that had to rock the breastplate, the gold breastplate. And you know, it was just.
He gave structure and direction to the story and to Santiago in terms of. Santiago is just wandering around. But then he gives it like, hey, you have this dream, you know, and you should follow it, you know, and you should do what is something that's in your heart. Do it and see where it takes you. And you know, like, it gave him the confidence and the purpose to start that. So I mean, that stood out to me, you know, and it was. It was impactful to me.
[00:14:09] Speaker A: Yeah, no, I definitely. Obviously we can't talk about that first part without referencing Melchizedek and the. Just his whole presence. You're right. He sets off. I mean, without him, there's no book. Right. The kid doesn't go on the journey.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: He just goes to see the merchant's daughter, you know.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: And I think to your point earlier, that's what really makes the book fascinating, is it's about the journey and not the destination.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Well, and yeah, and then to wrap this section up, and this was one of the Melchizedek stories. It was actually the end of the part with. With him. And this, to me was like, a lot happened after this and, you know, was excellent. But if the book could have. Like, this could have been the book to me, and it would have been just as impactful. When he tells the story about the secret, the guy who goes to the secret of happy to get the secret of happiness.
And I'm not going to go through the whole story, but basically it's to be able to stay focused on what you're trying to do while also appreciating everything that's happening around you with the illustration. As far as it was a guy given a teaspoon with two drops of oil, and he had to carry that and walk around and see everything that was going on in this facility. Amazing things that were going on. And that to me was like, wow, that's like, yeah, that is the secret of happiness, if you could do that. And so that story in itself, which, you know, again, that gets into the allegorical nature of the book in terms of how it's pulling in all these different things from different inspirations. But that was amazing. And so, I mean, like, it's. Yes, the journey. I mean, like, that's. That's. The book's about the journey in many ways. And there are. That. That story is encapsulated and that lesson is capulated. Encapsulated, excuse me, many different parts in it. So after moving. Moving beyond that part, he does travel to Africa again. He has a recurring dream telling him there he has, or there's a buried treasure. And, well, he surmises from that, through help from a gypsy from Melchizedek, that there is a buried treasure for him at the pyramid. So that's a long way away. In this time, you can't hop on a jet, you know, he has to take a boat to Africa, which isn't far from Spain, but then cross the Sahara. So he takes a boat, he goes to Tangier. And so the second part of the book is kind of just his introduction to Africa prior to trying to cross the desert, but just getting there. And when he gets there, like he has crazy stuff happens to him, but he also is given opportunity to learn. And those are kind of interrelated. He's given an opportunity to kind of learn about his surroundings and about himself. So in that second part of the book, you know, what stood out to
[00:16:40] Speaker A: you kind of just as following up from where we've been going, you know, the journey of the boy.
I think his introduction to these new sights and sounds I found interesting. You know, it's kind of cool because I think just. I thought about this too, right. We're American, we live here.
So the book does a great job of bringing some of this. The kind of sights and sounds. It's almost like, you know, like the smells of that part of the world. Yeah, he did a very good job.
[00:17:09] Speaker B: I've never been to Tangier.
[00:17:10] Speaker A: I know, that's what I mean. It made me like, I could visualize what he was kind of saying, which was cool. And that's why it was. You know, he's talking about even the complexion of some of the people. He's like, I could tell, you know, this guy was from this part of the region because of his skin tone, you know, and you figured, okay, so the guy was probably more of a olive skinned Arab looking guy than he was, you know, that kind of thing. And, and the fact that, you know, he talked about how weird. Like, I remember there's one part where he talked about the. This, this almost like a stained glass thing he used to see at the church in Spain. I don't remember which saint it was, but it was. It was like a conquistador type. It was shown at the church on this horse with the infidels kneeling beneath him. And he realized he was in that land of the infidels now. And, and, and because of. And they kept, you know, several times they alluded to the, the wars with the Moors coming from Africa into Spain. All that.
[00:18:04] Speaker B: And so was it you talking about Santiago Montamoros? The, the.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: Yeah, the, the, the. The Spanish. And, and it's just interesting how, you know, especially again when. When you go through the book, this the second time, after the first time, you realize how this was so new to him, the whole just being out of Spain.
And even when he talks about like watching the Arabs pray five times a day and kind of the whole Islam religion, like, that's all foreign to him. And he calls it like infidels. And again, now that you.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: He has a lot of contempt for it. And when he initially is exposed to it.
[00:18:41] Speaker A: Exactly.
And so I find that interesting because he learns to embrace it all too, afterwards, which I know we'll get into, but.
And then the other thing is, I remember there was a scene when he was looking at the guy who I think sold candy and he was assembling his stand, and it's when he Realizes that, I guess there was two guys assembling the stand, and one only spoke Spanish, the only other spoke Arabic. And he goes, but somehow they were able to communicate. And that's when he first realizes the language of the world type of thing.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: So.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: That was mine. That was the one I was gonna say.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: Honestly, that was amazing.
[00:19:17] Speaker B: No, no, it's good.
[00:19:18] Speaker A: It's good that we.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: That's pretty cool that we both saw that as. Yeah, because they basically, he had tragedy struck, which we were not gonna give away any everything, but tragedy struck. When he first got to Africa due to his own miscalculations, one of the quotes from in that area was that he, like, he's like every. He admits to himself, I'm like everyone else. I see the world in terms of what I would like to see happen, not what actually does. So after tragedy strikes, he picks him. He tries to. To pick himself up, to keep moving forward, you know, through some self reflection. But he sees this candy seller start assembling his stand for the day, and he helps him, you know, and then. But they're. They're communicating, you know, even though they're speaking different languages. And. Yeah, like that was. That. That's. Again, there's. There's more to human interaction than just the words that are spoken. 1. And there's more to human connection than just what you look like or just where you're from and things like that. And so that, that, that theme, you know, that he can make a connection with that and actually observe that in practice is something that oftentimes we get. We get lost. Like, we focus on our differences so much in today's world that we oftentimes overlook that we're all human, you know, and that we all face similar structures. And that he. And the admiration he got from that guy and observing that the candy seller, that, hey, he's not doing this because he's just trying to get rich or because, you know, like, he's doing this because he enjoys doing this. And, you know, there's fulfillment in that, doing something you enjoy doing. So, yeah, I mean, I, I thought that that part was. Was amazing, you know, and to me, when you look at the introduction to Africa, that's exactly what it was about, is him getting beyond his initial. The. The. The mindset he came with and absorbing what was going on around him and then allowing that to change him and allowing that to him to become a more complete person as he absorbed what was going on. Obviously, the, the book dealt. Excuse me. This section dealt a lot with him going to work for a crystal seller, a person who sold crystal glasses, and the lessons that were learned with that. He learns Arabic then. But beyond that, he just learns a lot about following the inner voice inside of him and how that can lead to positive results. He learns a lot, and Crystal Merchant learns a lot from him. They learn a lot from each other in terms of them being in different places in their lives and them treating their dreams differently. You know, like, the Crystal Merchant piece was. Was very interesting in that, you know, he specifically said the things he dreams about he doesn't want to do because that keeps him alive. He's afraid that if he did them, that he would no longer have the will or the desire to live, essentially. And that is interesting because that ties back to an earlier part in the book when they say that the possibility of having a dream come true is what makes life interesting, which is, you know, like, if you put that on. That wasn't said in reference to the Crystal Merchant, but I made the connection there because it was like, oh, so the Crystal Merchant is keeping his life interesting by maintaining the possibility and not going there and having it come true, and then he no longer has that interest there. So that stood out to me in that part as well.
[00:22:29] Speaker A: Yeah. No, I think the Crystal Merchant, to me, was one of the most consequential characters in the book.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Definitely.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: You can't talk about this part of the book without referencing him. And I think, like you said to me, he was more important than the boy himself in that part of the book.
And that might not sound right because obviously the boy is the main character. But what I mean is the Crystal Merchant was so interesting to me because he represented so many people in our society. You know, like, the Crystal Merchant probably is a representation of the majority of people in the world today.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: And it's definitely. And I say that with a bit of a heavy heart, not in a condescending way, like, oh, you know, a lot of people are too scared to go live their dream and all that.
[00:23:19] Speaker B: No, I think it's. Let me say this, let me jump in. Because Crystal Merchant, everything the Crystal Merchant said was rational. Like, it all made sense. It all. If you thought about it, it's like, hey, you know, like, I'm comfortable here. I have, you know, this is what I wanted, you know, and so I got it. And why ask for more? Why push the envelope more? Like, I had. So, like, yes, I would agree with you. The Crystal Merchant wasn't presented as a negative or any. And you saying that is not condescending at all. Like the Crystal Merchant.
He wasn't talking nonsense.
[00:23:46] Speaker A: No, but it's. It's. It's because it is so pragmatic, the way he's presented and the way he speaks that it forces you to realize that he's correct, that most people are like that. And it forces you to look at yourself again. That's why the book is so fascinating. And it's. It'd be tough to try and explain this to someone else because as he's talking, you know, I'm also looking at myself like, wow, do I do that in life? You know, do I. Am I too scared to follow certain things? Do I. When I think big, do. Do I get intimidated by those thoughts? Because, I mean, there are several times he alluded exactly to that. When he. I remember the scene where the boy starts asking him. He's like. And again, that's what's so cute about it is this, like, they keep calling a boy. Like, he's this young, innocent kid that just has these cool ideas. So he saw his hot one day, saw these. These guys that look like that because the crystal shop was at the top of this hill. And so looks like these guys are just thirsty and it's been a hot day. Obviously, it's the. It's the kind of Arabian desert scene. And so he goes to the Crystal Merchant is like, hey, you know, why don't we sell tea here?
Yeah. The guy's thinking like, well, I never thought of that, but. And then he starts. He starts.
[00:24:59] Speaker B: He.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: He starts trying to talk the kid out of it. Not necessarily talk the kid out of, but telling him why it's a bad idea.
[00:25:05] Speaker B: And he starts reflexively. The key there is that he reflexively went to why it. The potential downsides of it reflexively, which is what a lot of people do. Oftentimes when a new idea is interrupted or, excuse me, not interrupted, is raised, they reflexively go to, oh, well, we shouldn't do this for this reason or this reason.
In this reason, they don't reflexively go to why that could be better. It's reflexively why it would be worse.
[00:25:31] Speaker A: And where it was interesting with this guy is most people, like you're saying reflexively will react like that, but they don't realize what they're doing. This guy was very conscious. So he's explaining while he's being reflexive and reacting of why he doesn't want to do it. But he's acknowledging too, because he's like, well, you know, if we start selling tea Then like, he's basically saying it's going to work. So then it's going to force me to have to get the shop bigger and it's going to force me to have to, you know, hire.
[00:26:00] Speaker B: Hire people.
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Yeah, he kind of. And then he thanks the boy and he's like, I realized that, you know, he goes, I used to think about the people that, what do you say, like my competitors and my peers, when that would either, they would either blow up, like in a good way, like they would become wealthy and they would get, you know, they would have bigger crystal shops and all that, or they would have tried to make those same investments. And the other set of people in my life had failed. They'd gone bankrupt, you know.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Yeah. But I tried people here that tried new things and either did better or did worse. One of the two.
[00:26:38] Speaker A: And then he says, and I realize I've got my crystal shop just exactly how I want it to be and this and that. So at first I think he's going in a direction, like thanking the kid. Like, I realize I'm exactly where I want to be. And then he kind of goes and tells the kid, yeah, I realize I'm absolutely unhappy, you know, in a sense. And that's why to me, he was a fascinating thing. And then at the end, because I know that we, you know, got to wrap up this, this section here, like what, what was cool at the end too was that they both accepted who they were. Like, so a couple things near the end when he went to get his bag that he came with, which was like his shepherd bag that I guess it's been a year or so that he's even thought about it. And he dropped its two little stones, the urim and thurim, out. And it was like he realized it's the first time he thought about the king and all that, you know, like a year.
[00:27:34] Speaker B: So it was kind of cool.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: Like I just realized with that one, like this journey actually happens over a long period of time. It's like a couple years.
[00:27:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: But it's funny, so you think about. That's what I was thinking about. Like, so this kid, like, he's like, we, we learned, right? He's learned Arabic is like he lived a whole year with this guy, the crystal merchant. And he's. This is a life experience. It all happened in a week or two.
But it's funny how we don't need to know all his day to day life because as long as you get the few important gems, it's kind of that's why the book is like real life, right? We all live day to day in our journey and most of the things that happen are pretty insignificant.
But there are those gems and the, the people in our lives that influence us. The mentors or the mentees, you know, and we. And it. Listening. That book reminded me of things that I've heard from several different sources in my life. Which is when the student is ready, the teacher will appear and, you know, that kind of thing. Or you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make it drink. It's like all these little metaphors and things we've always heard this book is so good at and so well.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: But, you know, that year was what prepared him for the next section. And I think that's where you're going with this.
The hymn that showed up in Africa. Couldn't have done the next step after that without that year that he took to learn all the things that he learned at the crystal shop.
[00:28:58] Speaker A: And that's where to finish that off, where it was fascinating with the Crystal Merchant, because as they parted ways, that's what stuck out to me, was because the crystal merchant had paid him enough just to stick on the story theme that he could have gone back to Spain at that time and basically doubled his flock of sheep. He left Spain with 60 sheep and he could have bought 120.
And so he goes to the merchant and says, well, I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna go back basically to my sheep with his head held, his head held high. Yeah. And now you get to go to Mecca type of thing. Like, you made enough money, you can make this journey and live out that dream. And the merchant looks at him and says, you know, you're not going back to Spain to buy sheep, just like I'm not going to Mecca. And it was just kind of an interesting, cool, like, again, the pragmatic admission that from the, from the Crystal Merchant is, I am who I am. Like, I'm not going to Mecca because I already told you, I'm too scared.
[00:29:55] Speaker B: Which was his dream.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: That was his dream, but I'm too scared to follow my dream and that's who I am. And just like. And then he basically told the boy, and I know you're not going back to be a shepherd because you're the opposite of me.
You're gonna go follow your dream in a sense, and so you won't go backwards and you're not going to settle for that life because I know you. So I thought that was pretty cute. And just another, like, okay, you know, this, this is, this is a. You know, you can take a lot out of this.
[00:30:21] Speaker B: Yeah, because. And just to kind of wrap that up, because during the course of that year at the crystal shop, he, the boy had resolved himself to. To just make enough money so he could go back to Spain with his hand held high, head held high, and not be basically a failure, so to speak. So he spent the year. He made enough money to go back and he could go back, and I think he would have been able to buy a license to import goods. And so he would have improved his stock. He would improved his stock in that year in Africa. But he wasn't going to continue to follow his personal legend. He was just going to, you know, like, that's, that's done. And the crystal merchant, when he said that, he was like, nah, man, you're going to follow your leg.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: That's funny you say that, because I realize you're right.
He had a license to import goods from, like, this guy. He could have gone back home and been the man.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: So from that, after he, after he leaves the crystal shop and what he ends up, he does decide to continue to follow his personal legend and continue to seek this treasure at the pyramids. But, I mean, the next piece is where he has to make the biggest jump. Like Tangiers is on the west coast of Africa or northwest coast, and you have to cross the entire Sahara Desert, which is no small feat in order to get to the pyramids in Egypt. And so he goes to a place where they're doing caravans that are crossing the desert and by happenstance, supposedly, or just the way the world works, you know, the way the world unfolds. There is a caravan that's. That's heading for Al Fayoun, an oasis in Egypt. And so in this part, the next part of the book dealt with the travel across the Sahara and then the time in the oasis, which is where he initially meets the alchemist. And also he meets another very important character as a part of the travel across the Sahara to the oasis, which is just referred to as the Englishman. And the Englishman actually is expressly looking for the alchemist. That's when he first is introduced to the idea of alchemy and what alchemists can do and so forth. And this part was another part, another journey, so to speak. Time period where they're crossing the desert. This isn't. This is something that takes a long time, day by day with camels and things like that. And so, you know, in this part, you Know where this discovery of learning the desert and learning about alchemy and so forth, what stood out to you in this Tunde?
[00:32:40] Speaker A: And I mean, again, one of the things that stood out, which came about maybe the second or third time going through it was again, the level of. It's interesting, he doesn't spend a lot of time on it, but it's like the level of small details that made me put me into the caravan and put me into the desert.
[00:33:01] Speaker B: So.
[00:33:01] Speaker A: Because, you know, I'm thinking of in my head like I've never been to the Sahara and I've never been to a. In a caravan. Right. So I don't really know what that's about. And I can think of movies and things that I've seen or some documentary.
But when he talks about like him and the Englishman and all that, so you think about just those two or when he's, you know, he's, he's. He's talks about that he was staying in some tent with kids his age. One night, you know, just. They put him in there and he was telling stories about the city once
[00:33:27] Speaker B: he got to the oasis.
[00:33:28] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So I figure, you know, okay, I'm picturing him with, you know, five other young guys that just, you know, him telling stories. But he gets into like describing, you know, there was, I think, 200 or 400 people in the caravan and twice as many animals and how quiet it was in the desert once they left the town and how when they slept at night, they put the animals in the middle in a circle to. So that they could keep their body heat, could keep them warm with the coldness of the desert night. And I'm thinking about like, I've been to Arizona, let's say in February, and you're surprised. You think of the desert's hot. Man, at night the desert is freezing. You know, it'll be 50 degrees, 40 degrees with the wind blowing. You know, the wind chill gets pretty cold. So it just was again, a well written, kind of just good literature. Right. Like. Like I just felt like I was in that desert. So that kind of again stuck out that this, this the author is just very good at bringing all this stuff into, into the storytelling and making it a great story. But going back to, I think the character part of it, I think the Englishman, kind of like the crystal merchant, was a very necessary part of the journey. And again, a very interesting contrast. He was so sure of himself and he was so smart, you know, with his books. And he knew exactly what he was looking for. The Alchemist and all that. And there was a scene in there where he. I can't remember exactly how to put it quickly, but he was trying to. He was looking for the kid to learn something from him or from his books or something like that. And I don't remember what it was, exactly what the boy was supposed to get out of it. But when the boy didn't answer in a certain way, the way the narrator described it was, the Englishman thought that he was just too simple, that he couldn't understand this stuff. Yeah, and it's like. It's kind of like you realize, no, dude, you're the one who really can't understand. Like, you're the one who still got this veil of modern society in front of you, and you think it's all about this.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: And that what that was was that he. All these books on alchemy that had all this.
All this fanciful things to describe it and things like that, illustrations. And he wanted the boy to be impressed by all that stuff. And the boy wasn't. You know, the boy thought, well, you know, this stuff is pretty simple. Then what's the point of all these books that are describing? He called it a mania for trying to simplify things. This is what the Englishman said about the boy. And so. So, yeah, like, that he didn't take more from all of the other stuff that.
All of this other stuff that had been added to describe and talk about alchemy, which was, you know, obviously that was a signal later on, because the alchemists later on talked about how man had filled up books and volumes with all this other stuff to talk about alchemy. But in the essence, it's very simple, which was the exact opposite of what the Englishman was trying to.
When he was trying to explain it and understand it and so forth. So, you know. But yeah, and the Englishman exactly took that as saying, yeah, this. This Spanish boy is just too. His soul is too simple to understand this stuff.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: Yeah, you had this Englishman who was so wrapped up in his own culture and his own way of being that he couldn't really see even what was in front of him or what was around him. And another way that it was alluded to in the story was when they kind of traded off a bit where the boy was.
He was referencing how. Or the narrator was, how the Englishman had all these books, and he just kept reading throughout most of the caravan at the beginning. But the boy decided that he wasn't going to read his book. He put his book down and spent the time observing the caravan and kind of just being in the moment. And that's another thing. It reminds me of this section of the book, when they're in the caravan and going through the desert is. That's when the book also really started hitting on the theme of living in the moment.
[00:37:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:10] Speaker A: And that as humans, we worry too much about the future and the past. And that's where I think the desert was, that part of the teacher in that moment of teaching him how to really just live day by day.
[00:37:23] Speaker B: And that was the character of the camel driver.
[00:37:25] Speaker A: Yeah, the camel driver was big on
[00:37:27] Speaker B: that in terms of teaching the boy that. And. Yeah, I mean, I think my takeaway was similar to that. Just as far as the forest for the trees kind of analysis. And. And interestingly enough, this section went into showing how actually we as humans have created a lot of those trees that prevent us from really seeing the forest.
And. Yeah, like, the approach of the boy to take. To slow down and observe what was going on around him and try to understand that, versus the Englishman's approach to put his head down and ignore what was going on around him or try to block that stuff out. What was going on around him and just focus on trying to learn all of this stuff in a book. I thought that was. It's similar to, you know, again, it speaks to our society now. It speaks to probably human societies timeless and from a timeless standpoint. But there's just a lot going on in front of your face if you take a chance to look up.
[00:38:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:25] Speaker B: And pay attention to that stuff. And. But so often we don't. So often we don't. So, like, we. Right. In our modern culture right now, we can live with people and know less about what's going on in their life than, you know, what's going on on Twitter or what's going on wherever. Like, because where do we keep our head down into the phone and not just observing what. Not again, not just asking somebody what they're doing, but just observing how they're doing and what's going on around your house.
[00:38:51] Speaker A: No, that's a great point. I was going to add to that, actually, because as you're saying it, it made me realize the tie in to the earlier part of the book. It's very similar to the lesson from the Wise men with the boy with the. With the oil and the spoon.
[00:39:04] Speaker B: Of course it is, man.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: That's what I told you. That was.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: That was the line that set the whole book off. Like, oh, my God.
[00:39:08] Speaker A: No, but that's what I'm Saying is that it's the same like the English
[00:39:11] Speaker B: well, but you gotta do both. That's the thing.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Yeah. The Englishman has his head in the books, and he's not seeing the world around him, the caravan and the desert. So it's the same, really, as the boy with the spoon and the oil, not seeing, you know, the treasures of the guy's tent.
[00:39:24] Speaker B: And I guess I'll tell the story, like, basically the first time, after the wise man told him to hold this, he told. He said, okay, you want to know the secret? I can't tell you the secret of happiness yet. But while you're here, hold the spoon, put two drops of oil there, carry the spoon and walk around and check my house out. You can't know a man until you know his house. And so when the boy walked around the house, he just looked at the spoon the whole time, trying to make sure he didn't drop it. And then he went back and the guy said, oh, well, you didn't see all my stuff. You know, what are you doing? Like, you can't. How can you walk around the house? There's all this stuff going on. And then so the next time, he sent it back out to do it again, and he went and looked at everything and was in awe and amazed. And he dropped the oil.
And so the key is to be able to hold the oil and see what's going on. And the boy interprets that as, you have to see what's going on in the world around you, but you can't lose your purpose either. You have to be so looking at that. Yes, that theme plays in a lot to the book. Because in that theme, you could see that in anybody's life. Because being able to experience life and what's going on around you doesn't mean that you can't pay your mortgage or that you shouldn't show up at work or things like that. Like, it means, like, you have to be able to balance those two with your responsibilities and your life, you know, living, you know. And so, yeah, man, that part was amazing to me.
[00:40:38] Speaker A: And so one other thing that stuck out to me. Okay, yeah, quickly, be on this. On this section of the desert. Because it goes back to my thought about the Englishman and our cultures really being different. Meaning I say ours, and I say that as me, as the same culture as the Englishman, meaning us, Western culture versus some others, you know, that have. Are out there and been out there through history, is when the boy was kind of asking him, when they were first, early in their encounter, when they were getting to know each other, and the boy was trying to learn, like, why is this so complicated in a sense? You know, like when he was looking at the pictures in the guy's books and he's kind of saying, like, why is this, like, so complicated, this alchemy thing?
And the Englishman kind of was like, well, you know, like, you gotta be literate. And, you know, this is complicated stuff. If it wasn't, everybody could turn lead into gold and gold would lose its value.
And that kind of stuck out to me too, because it was like, yeah, that's how we look at things. Everything's, like, about a possession and about, like, I gotta have minds and I want to have this secret over here so I can produce the golden egg or something and. And no one else can, you know, and it's just, you know, that was almost, like, foreign to the boy. Again, he was kind of simple and naive thinking, like, well, why would we want to keep this if someone could turn lead into gold or any metal into gold, like, why wouldn't we just spread this knowledge everywhere?
[00:42:06] Speaker B: Well, yeah, it was the concept of possession for the purpose of exclusion.
[00:42:11] Speaker A: Correct. That's what I mean by that.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: You can possess knowledge without having to try to exclude other people from it. And the Englishman got into the worthiness of the people, whereas the book actually spoke to the fact that even if. And this gets. There's an analog to this later on in the book where the alchemist tells somebody, hey, yeah, this is my master work. This is what I use to turn lead into gold, and this is what I use to get eternal life. And they laughed at it.
[00:42:37] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:42:38] Speaker B: And, you know, like. So it was just like, hey, actually, no, if you have something valuable, you don't have to hide it. Most people won't appreciate it anyway. And so it was like, I don't have. It was a different approach, a different look at how. What to do. If you possess something valuable, should you do everything in your power to keep everybody away from it, or should you be open with it? And if people are willing to receive the message, only the worthy will be the ones who are willing to receive the message. Not necessarily anyone will be able to receive it because if their soul's not ready to receive it, or if they are their heads too far down into the book, they won't be able to get it anyway.
And so, yeah, I mean, I thought that contrast was very interesting. So on the fulfilling, you know, like, eventually, you know, they get to. Or it's the oasis, he meets the Alchemist the alchemist teaches them some things, or really teaches him how to learn things on his own.
They head off to the pyramids. Eventually, you know, like, there is a resolution that works out, not how you would expect, but in a way that does allow us to see the journey. So, you know, in that last part, what'd you think?
[00:43:42] Speaker A: Well, one other thing I was going to say is, can we. Can we talk about the desert and leave out the alchemist?
[00:43:49] Speaker B: Well, you know, the alchemist was the shiny object.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: But I mean, there's a lot with the alchemist. Yeah, we got to mention that he was part of the desert, that he was unveiled in the desert. But yeah, he obviously leads into the final part as well.
Man. And that's the thing. What stood out to me, the final part, of course, I'll say a lot of stuff stood out, but I would say definitely. And that's why I mentioned the alchemist.
The continued journey he had with the alchemist, I found just fascinating. There's a lot there. I don't think we can unpack it all just in this conversation. So obviously people need to listen to it, interpret it themselves. But the alchemist himself, first appearing in the desert and even appearing in a way that he didn't seem to be what he was, the boy was expecting, you know, somebody that was, I guess, a little more grandiose. And maybe, you know, like they talked about, they would think that he would have ovens in his tent, you know, and be this kind of alchemist. Like, we think of somebody as almost like a chemist.
And he didn't turn out to be that way, so to speak. So I think tipping into kind of the kind of final portion of the journey and of the book, the alchemist continues to teach as they. They go through their journey. So after kind of leaving the caravan and, And, And. And finding that, I guess that group of that militia group or whoever it was, you know, that they kind of were. Were at that camp where they were almost like prisoners, where he got the three days, the whole thing with the win. And to those that haven't list, you know, gotten to this book, definitely get into it to. To get all these details here. But the, The. The part that I'm referencing is basically, and you referenced it a little earlier, when he showed the guys, the Arab guys, he had the Elixir of Life and the philosopher's Stone, and they laughed at him and let him buy. And he made that comment of when you show people your treasure and they're not believers, in a sense, they'll just laugh at it.
And so they get to this. They get kind of captured, I guess is the best way to put it. They're kind of taken hostage by these guys.
And the only way out. The alchemist kind of is thinking quick on his toes, and he says, you know, he tells him that the boy has this gold.
And he says that, here, take the gold and it'll take us.
It'll take the boy three days, but he'll show you he can turn himself into the wind.
And so the boy gets mad at him. Why'd you give my gold away after? You know, I guess when they're alone again and he goes, that gold just got you three days of life.
And I thought that was an interesting lesson, too, because sometimes you're looking at something and I could see the boy, obviously, would be pissed off. Hey, you just gave my gold away to these guys. But the alchemist was kind of saying, look, we would have died right here, right now. We got three days and we're alive, so we gotta figure this out type of thing.
[00:46:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:56] Speaker A: And so. And so.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: And just for reference, the part of the journey into the desert, and then also the final part of the journey from the oasis up to the pyramids, There are tribal wars in the desert going on this whole time. And so when they get captured, it's part of all that, you know, it's part of, you know, the journey is fraught for reasons beyond just the fact that you're traveling through the desert. And so they get wrapped up into that, what's going on. So that's just the context of what you're talking about with the capturing. Yeah.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: And one of the things, too, even just to go back there and mention, is you make a great point about the tribal wars because. And I'd say this is something that stood out to me in the book, just throughout the book. So it's not about which portion, but thinking of the tribal wars, the fact that the oasis was seen as a place of refuge.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:45] Speaker A: That no matter who was fighting who, and all these tribal wars that were going on, there was. There was these quote unquote, societal norms of that. Of that. Of that region and of the time that everybody left the oasis alone. And because you had women and children there specifically.
[00:48:02] Speaker B: And everybody.
[00:48:03] Speaker A: Everybody needed to kind of refresh themselves. Right. Even though. So it reminded me of, you know, peeling it out to our modern society. Right.
Everybody has, you know, it's that saying we've heard over time. There's an honor among thieves that everybody has their own Rules of governing themselves. And they might not be the laws of physics like gravity or the speed of light, but it's a way to keep a society intact, in a sense. And in our world, you know, a societal norm might have been something like showing up to a subpoena or the certain ways that we, you know, our government behaves with itself. You know, the way that the different political parties, you might not have something that's a law, but they've generally respected these norms. And I think, well, what it is,
[00:48:55] Speaker B: is a way that we agree power should be exercised.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:48:59] Speaker B: You know, so, yeah, so those ones
[00:49:00] Speaker A: that stuck out to me is that, as we've seen in the last few years, what we've considered our norms, let's say over the last couple generations at least, have been tested. I don't want to say he wrote it. I just want to say have been tested and pushed and prodded and some maintain and some break. And I think that's what the. That scene in the oasis reminded me of, is there was at first a little bit of shock, like, because the. The boy, just to get this out there, the boy had a vision and, and believed that a war, you know, someone was going to attack the oasis. And long story short, a lot of people were kind of questioning that because that wasn't the norm. Like, what do you mean someone's going to attack the oasis? This and that. And so it was interesting to me just going over that part too, because it showed you how, like, the desert, being a great teacher, teaches that as well. Like, yeah, we. We all get kind of caught into routines, but we shouldn't live and die by these routines. We should all recognize that these things are at risk of being challenged as well.
[00:49:58] Speaker B: They're human creations, basically.
[00:50:00] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:50:00] Speaker B: They're not, as you pointed out before, they're not laws of physics.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:50:04] Speaker B: And I would say what stood out to me in the final part and also just overall in the book was the progression of the teachers. You know, Melchizedek at the beginning, crystal merchant, Englishman, the camel driver, then the alchemist. Each one of those teachers are giving him pieces of what he's going to need for these next set of challenges, for these next challenges.
And the way it works in that way, I mean, that is, you can look at it as reading a book and be like, oh, well, that's lucky, or that's this or that, but life works like that in a lot of ways, like you do.
I've actually talked to my friends about this a lot of times. It's Just that as you move up the ladder, as you try to do more and more things, as you grow from, you know, from. From young man to man to whatever is just the challenges you face get harder. And so the things that you try to accomplish when you're in your 20s, when you're in your 30s, you look back at that stuff and like, oh, that wasn't that difficult. Well, but when you were in your 20s, that was, like, so consuming. It was so it was all you could think about or something like that. And then the same thing happens as you get in your 30s to your 40s, you look back. I look back at something I dealt with when I was 30, and I'm like, oh, well, you know, like that stuff. That's nothing compared to the things I'm dealing with now. And so that the way his teachers progressed to give him more advanced lessons and the way that his challenges progressed to make his journey more and more difficult, but he was ready to meet those challenges because of the life, because of the journey that he'd been on, to me, was just very instructive. And that was the final part.
His challenges in the last section of the book were the greatest that he had faced in the whole book. And he was prepared for those because of the journey that he went through. And so to me, that was, we said at the beginning in the book, goes into how life is in the journey, but the journey prepares you for the journey.
The step one prepares you for step two. Step two prepares you for step three. If he would have skipped any of those steps, he wouldn't have been prepared at the end for the fraught challenges, for the fraught journey that he faced in the last leg of the journey. And so that, to me, was very, very, very instructive in terms of something we could take into all of our lives. One of the pieces in the book talked about how making a decision was really just hopping into a river with a current, because the decision is just setting you on a path, and then things are going to happen along that path that you're going to have to react to or to deal with. And that is something that we can all take away. And as you pointed out earlier, what you take away from it in your 20s may be different than what you take away from it in your 40s, but it still can be something that helps you along your journey.
[00:52:44] Speaker A: Yeah, it's actually interesting as you bring all that up. It makes me think about, I guess, in the transition with the desert and the kind of final part.
Was he one of the more esoteric parts of the book where he's talking to the wind and then he's talking to the sun.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: Well, first he's talking to the desert.
[00:53:05] Speaker A: Yeah. In the desert.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: Then he talks to the wind.
[00:53:07] Speaker A: And so. But it's just that also, they also become teachers, in a sense, in kind of wrapping up a lot of things in the story.
And that's why the book is fascinating.
And you put it very well when you talked about even our life journeys through the different decades. Right. Looking back at my 20s or my 30s or even turning 40, obviously, I'm in my 40s now, so I haven't been past this point. And that's why I say I know that if I listen to this book in 10 years, I'll have something different, because there's a journey that awaits me over the next 10 years which I can't see it. And so it's the ability to understand that part of the journey and that part of life, I think that helps.
I think those of us who can look at the journey this way get through it a little bit better and somewhere navigate the mentalities to be between the Englishman and the Crystal Merchant. And because, like, I look at myself, I'm scared of the future, and I'm scared of doing things just like the Crystal Merchant was.
The difference is I understand it and I understand what you just said about the nature of the journey and the universe type of thing. So I know that if I jump into that river, the current will take me somewhere.
And so, long story short, I know we want to wrap in the end. The journey is really about us, and it's really a mirror that's being held to us when we go through this life.
And I feel like that's very difficult for many of us to comprehend. And the way that we live in society today, because we're so conditioned to look for satisfaction outside of ourselves.
We're so conditioned to. You know, and it's hard to fight that conditioning because it's television, print media, Internet, you know, we're getting bombarded by all these things, material, materialism. Right. I want a new car. I want a new house. I want this, I want that, I want to get paid. So it's kind of like the Englishman.
It's all this material stuff you're looking for, and it's. The journey is really trying to learn the alchemist version, which is just going on your personal legend, and then finding the happiness of doing that, finding that
[00:55:19] Speaker B: connection inside of you.
[00:55:20] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:55:21] Speaker B: So, yeah, I mean, overall, as you can tell, you know, that we enjoyed this book and took a lot from it.
[00:55:28] Speaker A: You think so?
[00:55:29] Speaker B: But, you know, it's something, though. You know, it's entertaining and it's all on its own. Right. But it's also something that there's something to be said about the humanity and learning about yourself with that and learning about, you know, just the interaction of humans that can be taken so much from it and that you can take different things at different times of your life or you'll get more the second time through or something like that. So we thought it was worthwhile to do a podcast on and something that, you know, something we enjoyed that we just wanted to talk about on air. So we appreciate everybody for joining us on air this one. Don't forget to subscribe. Review rate us. Tell us what you think. Check us on Twitter at Call it dn. And until next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:56:08] Speaker A: I'm Tunde Lana.
[00:56:09] Speaker B: All right. Have a good one. We'll talk to you soon.
