Is Jihad More Exciting than Governing? Also, Black Americans in America’s Early History

The following is a computer-generated transcript. WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.210 --> 00:00:16.650 Hello. Welcome. 2 00:00:16.890 --> 00:00:18.810 to The Call It Like I See It podcast. 3 00:00:20.150 --> 00:00:24.860 I'm James Keys and in this episode of Call It Like I See It, we're going to react to a 4 00:00:24.860 --> 00:00:31.340 recent piece which takes a look at how many former Taliban fighters in Afghanistan have 5 00:00:31.340 --> 00:00:36.500 come to miss the days of jihad and appear to be growing weary of the monotony of 6 00:00:36.500 --> 00:00:42.850 governing. And later on, we're going to take a look at some interesting facts and stories 7 00:00:43.030 --> 00:00:48.040 about the participation of black Americans in the American story from the very 8 00:00:48.040 --> 00:00:53.430 beginning, going back to the Revolutionary War and in other conflicts early on, the 9 00:00:53.470 --> 00:00:59.470 first 150 years or so of the United States history, as well as during the United States 10 00:00:59.470 --> 00:01:04.180 first attempt to become a true representative democracy following the Civil 11 00:01:04.180 --> 00:01:09.860 War. Joining me today is a man. 12 00:01:09.910 --> 00:01:17.590 If you ever got all of his variants in one room, he would be the one who remains Tunde 13 00:01:17.590 --> 00:01:24.140 Ogunlana, Tunde, You have any warnings today for us about any of your other variants? 14 00:01:24.620 --> 00:01:26.360 No, but I think my wife does. 15 00:01:27.950 --> 00:01:29.410 She's had to put up with all of them. 16 00:01:29.440 --> 00:01:35.240 I actually don't actually recognize all of them and know that how many actually exist. 17 00:01:35.240 --> 00:01:40.010 But if you want to if you want me to bring her in here, I'm sure you have a show about 18 00:01:40.010 --> 00:01:42.020 that. So, you know, that's hilarious. 19 00:01:42.020 --> 00:01:42.950 That's hilarious. 20 00:01:44.030 --> 00:01:45.980 Week in the week, we're going to save our show for next week. 21 00:01:46.700 --> 00:01:48.410 It just does show the tuned variance. 22 00:01:48.440 --> 00:01:53.300 Gotcha. Gotcha. Now, we're recording this on February 20th, 2023. 23 00:01:53.630 --> 00:01:56.360 And I want to jump right in to our first topic today. 24 00:01:56.870 --> 00:02:00.080 You sent me this interesting piece from Vice a week or two ago. 25 00:02:00.110 --> 00:02:04.100 It includes interviews from several former Taliban fighters. 26 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:08.270 And it goes into a lot of discussion about how they miss the days of jihad. 27 00:02:08.270 --> 00:02:12.860 And they're just not finding governing and showing up to offices and people looking at 28 00:02:12.860 --> 00:02:16.610 them when they're hungry and stuff that engaging and that exciting. 29 00:02:17.030 --> 00:02:21.290 And so what did you find about this that was most interesting or what stood out to you in 30 00:02:21.290 --> 00:02:21.560 it? 31 00:02:23.060 --> 00:02:25.730 It was I found a lot of interesting. 32 00:02:25.730 --> 00:02:31.730 I mean, I think that as you said right just now, like it just stood out to me as the dog 33 00:02:31.730 --> 00:02:35.630 that caught the car, or I should say collectively the Taliban or the dogs that 34 00:02:35.630 --> 00:02:37.520 caught one big car called the country. 35 00:02:38.900 --> 00:02:40.160 And it. 36 00:02:40.170 --> 00:02:40.760 Just. 37 00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:46.280 I guess, and for the audience, because there's not a visual here. 38 00:02:46.550 --> 00:02:51.320 What's comical to me is the photograph that is the leading the article is it appears that 39 00:02:51.320 --> 00:02:57.320 it's a guys with RPGs and AK 47 SE Taliban guys like serious looking dudes like that, 40 00:02:57.470 --> 00:03:03.500 but they seem to have hijacked a paddleboat from a from an amusement park because they're 41 00:03:03.500 --> 00:03:05.420 on an only three of them can fit on there. 42 00:03:05.420 --> 00:03:08.150 And it's a paddle boat that's shaped like a swan. 43 00:03:09.050 --> 00:03:14.540 And I feel like this image is perfect for this article because it just. 44 00:03:14.540 --> 00:03:17.330 Looks like it's credited as a Taliban photo like this. 45 00:03:17.390 --> 00:03:18.320 Yeah, that's. I mean. 46 00:03:18.650 --> 00:03:20.810 This. That's right. Yeah. That's how their bragging is. 47 00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:23.330 It's like kind of like the can't get right group. 48 00:03:23.630 --> 00:03:25.400 That's what I mean by it's just. 49 00:03:25.700 --> 00:03:27.530 And we'll have the link to the article in the show. 50 00:03:27.710 --> 00:03:30.110 Notes. Yeah. So this one's worth taking a look at it. 51 00:03:30.110 --> 00:03:34.670 It's, it's just funny, but it's, but on a serious note, I mean, put it this way and 52 00:03:34.700 --> 00:03:41.240 I'll pass it back here, but it didn't surprise me to see this outcome, especially 53 00:03:41.240 --> 00:03:46.730 from, I would say, the guys in the field, let's say doing the jihad, guys that were 54 00:03:46.730 --> 00:03:49.970 actually fighting against the Americans and everyone else, Meaning, yeah. 55 00:03:50.020 --> 00:03:51.530 Because they're talking like a sniper. 56 00:03:51.530 --> 00:03:54.410 They're talking to like they're talking to people who were really fighters, you know, 57 00:03:54.410 --> 00:03:55.520 like really don't. Yeah. 58 00:03:55.520 --> 00:03:59.630 And, you know, yeah, clearly there's a difference between being in battle and 59 00:03:59.630 --> 00:04:05.750 constantly in a kind of that strategic game of taking territory and all this kind of 60 00:04:05.750 --> 00:04:09.740 stuff versus, like you're saying, sitting there having to worry about the trash getting 61 00:04:09.740 --> 00:04:13.940 cleaned up in downtown Kabul or that electricity doesn't work in this part of town 62 00:04:13.940 --> 00:04:19.010 and people complaining and or that you know, some some some contractor that built a 63 00:04:19.010 --> 00:04:22.670 building may have done a shoddy job and now some families care to live in there. 64 00:04:22.670 --> 00:04:24.010 You know, those are actually all old compliance. 65 00:04:25.070 --> 00:04:28.040 Yeah, like, that's bureaucracy and that's government. 66 00:04:28.550 --> 00:04:34.760 And that seems to be what jihadists and insurgent type of mindsets and I could 67 00:04:34.760 --> 00:04:37.490 include. Insurrectionists don't seem to like actually governing. 68 00:04:37.490 --> 00:04:40.400 It's it takes work and you've got to put up with people complaining. 69 00:04:40.400 --> 00:04:44.120 Yeah yeah and there's not a lot of quick fixes and you just got to deal with stuff. 70 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:48.920 I mean I think that a lot of times I mean, what this highlights is the the difference 71 00:04:48.920 --> 00:04:55.100 between the quote unquote idealist and really the person that can can get the put 72 00:04:55.100 --> 00:04:59.870 the rubber on the road, so to speak, because, yeah, it's like the way they 73 00:04:59.870 --> 00:05:02.450 complained about the way their life is now. 74 00:05:02.450 --> 00:05:06.770 Like, oh, there was a freedom to when we were doing jihad, you know, like we kind of 75 00:05:06.770 --> 00:05:08.630 got to come and go as we pleased. 76 00:05:08.630 --> 00:05:12.680 And all we did was, you know, one of the things all we did was plan attacks and then 77 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:17.480 our escapes, you know, like and and so they lament that one of the guys I know you you 78 00:05:17.480 --> 00:05:21.020 said when you sent this to me, one of the things you pointed out is like there's a guy 79 00:05:21.020 --> 00:05:24.080 in there complaining that he has to show up at work before eight and stay till after 80 00:05:24.080 --> 00:05:27.800 four. Yeah. You know, or else he gets docked for that day of pay. 81 00:05:27.980 --> 00:05:32.960 And it's like what it ended up sounding like is like that sounds like stuff that people we 82 00:05:32.960 --> 00:05:34.370 know would talk about around the water cooler. 83 00:05:34.760 --> 00:05:36.620 Like, Oh man, this is 9/10. 84 00:05:36.620 --> 00:05:43.040 I got to deal with it. So like in a sense it shows chose the the like that contrast 85 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.940 between like the idealist, like, hey, I want to we're going to we're going to break 86 00:05:46.940 --> 00:05:51.860 everything as it is and we're going to create this amazing thing in the idea. 87 00:05:52.190 --> 00:05:53.900 It's amazing in their head. 88 00:05:53.900 --> 00:05:58.220 But then actually, you know, again, like getting like you use the term off and getting 89 00:05:58.220 --> 00:05:59.720 the trains to run on time and so forth. 90 00:05:59.720 --> 00:06:03.620 Or they use that phrase often like getting that kind of stuff doesn't just happen on its 91 00:06:03.620 --> 00:06:08.420 own. It's almost like the the the old school Disney movie where like it's like, okay, at 92 00:06:08.420 --> 00:06:11.090 the end of the story, everything works out and everybody's happy. 93 00:06:11.090 --> 00:06:17.330 And it's like the idea person, the idealist kind of they don't get to the in their mind. 94 00:06:17.330 --> 00:06:21.740 It's just like all we got to do is overthrow what's here or stop these people that we 95 00:06:21.740 --> 00:06:27.890 don't like. And then it's like the musical cut in and then it's all good. 96 00:06:27.890 --> 00:06:31.010 Like every everybody starts dancing around in a circle and it's like. 97 00:06:31.010 --> 00:06:32.090 Not like a movie. 98 00:06:32.900 --> 00:06:35.210 The rest the rest of the stuff has to all be done. 99 00:06:35.570 --> 00:06:38.300 And that stuff is monotonous and that stuff is boring. 100 00:06:38.300 --> 00:06:43.220 And but it's that's the stuff that actually if you're trying to win a peace, so to speak, 101 00:06:43.220 --> 00:06:44.780 that's the stuff that's going to make or break it. 102 00:06:45.260 --> 00:06:51.560 Yeah. No, it's it's fascinating because it because it makes me think to I mean, and 103 00:06:51.570 --> 00:06:59.360 obviously I'm going to say this from total 30,000 feet and not without the full detail 104 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:01.010 of of the nuances. 105 00:07:01.010 --> 00:07:07.190 But I'm wondering if when the Taliban took over in the early nineties after the whole 106 00:07:07.190 --> 00:07:10.820 mujahedeen thing and the in the fighting with the Soviets in the seventies and 107 00:07:10.820 --> 00:07:15.920 eighties, if this was the same complaint that people had and I don't know, I'm just 108 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:21.020 what I'm saying is it's interesting to me that after 20 years of American occupation 109 00:07:21.020 --> 00:07:28.670 and America assisting their government in trying to become somewhat of a Western style 110 00:07:28.670 --> 00:07:32.690 government where people have elections at the local level and people get to choose, you 111 00:07:32.690 --> 00:07:37.880 know, the mayors and the people in town, and those people understanding they're going to 112 00:07:37.880 --> 00:07:41.020 an elected office to then be a. 113 00:07:41.070 --> 00:07:45.450 Responsible to answer these questions by the people is like I feel like. 114 00:07:46.110 --> 00:07:50.340 Maybe there's something to be said about the influence that we had for one generation, 115 00:07:50.340 --> 00:07:53.580 that this is not the expectation of the Afghans from their leadership. 116 00:07:53.810 --> 00:07:55.380 You know what I mean? Like, I'm just wondering, like. 117 00:07:55.380 --> 00:07:57.290 How this is supposed to be, how it's done. 118 00:07:57.300 --> 00:08:00.120 Yeah, like this is what they're used to now after 20 years. 119 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:02.580 And, you know, because some of these people are young as well. 120 00:08:02.580 --> 00:08:04.650 The interview, the interview, someone who's 25 years old. 121 00:08:04.650 --> 00:08:09.690 So this is someone that would have been born just before, you know, in 1999 or whatever, 122 00:08:09.690 --> 00:08:12.750 just before the the occupation of Afghanistan. 123 00:08:13.410 --> 00:08:19.380 So I'm wondering, it just interesting to me like, is this what it looks like once people 124 00:08:19.380 --> 00:08:24.750 get exposed to certain things being efficient or maybe more efficient than they 125 00:08:24.750 --> 00:08:30.300 were prior to that when it's taken away or when the insurgents now are running it and 126 00:08:30.300 --> 00:08:33.780 they can't run it? Right. People complain and it's just interesting to me. 127 00:08:33.990 --> 00:08:37.230 But to me, it's not even to say that it may have been run better before. 128 00:08:37.230 --> 00:08:42.780 But like, I think what it is actually is that we were when when the US was there, we 129 00:08:42.780 --> 00:08:46.470 were assisting them, quote unquote them. 130 00:08:46.470 --> 00:08:48.060 And what you have to say, okay, well, who is them? 131 00:08:48.510 --> 00:08:53.280 It was most likely we were assisting bureaucratically inclined people, people who 132 00:08:53.280 --> 00:08:57.240 wanted to be a part of a bureaucracy and to like there are people that are like that, 133 00:08:57.420 --> 00:09:00.720 hey, I want to show up. I want to do some good incrementally. 134 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:04.060 I want to, you know, like I'll go be a building inspector or I'll set up codes and 135 00:09:04.080 --> 00:09:05.160 there's people who want to do that kind of stuff. 136 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:09.390 And so we were assisting bureaucratically inclined people, but the people they were 137 00:09:09.390 --> 00:09:14.310 talking to and yeah, they give us a range, an age range, everything was like 24 to 32 or 138 00:09:14.310 --> 00:09:16.470 something like that, or maybe 34 or something around that age. 139 00:09:16.470 --> 00:09:22.200 So young but, but full on adults, you know, like not teenagers or anything like that. 140 00:09:22.200 --> 00:09:26.880 And these, these folks and I don't I say this without judgment. 141 00:09:26.880 --> 00:09:28.620 It's just, you know, just an observation. 142 00:09:28.950 --> 00:09:33.720 They're in these positions more so it appears, as a reward for like their loyalty 143 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.290 or as I. Okay. Where you've helped the organization take over. 144 00:09:37.290 --> 00:09:43.110 So now all you you sniper you become you know, this this job you go be the building 145 00:09:43.110 --> 00:09:45.420 inspector and it's like building inspector. 146 00:09:45.420 --> 00:09:49.230 You know why it's so to the credit, some of them were in security as well. 147 00:09:49.230 --> 00:09:52.440 But nonetheless, though, it's like these types of things, these aren't 148 00:09:52.440 --> 00:09:53.760 bureaucratically inclined people. 149 00:09:53.760 --> 00:09:56.820 These aren't this isn't, you know, when they when they started saying, hey, we got to do 150 00:09:56.820 --> 00:09:59.310 these jobs in this jobs, these aren't the guys that would be like, hey, that's that's 151 00:09:59.310 --> 00:10:00.450 what I've been wanting to do my whole life. 152 00:10:00.450 --> 00:10:05.040 Yeah. And so I think part of it is that you're almost taking a fish out of water in 153 00:10:05.070 --> 00:10:10.020 that sense, because the Taliban, the people who are in charge at the high end want people 154 00:10:10.020 --> 00:10:14.250 that they trust in all these government positions or and a lot of them at least. 155 00:10:14.250 --> 00:10:15.540 And so they're saying, hey, you've got to do this. 156 00:10:15.900 --> 00:10:19.110 The other thing I want to mention, though, and I'll kick it back to you on this one, 157 00:10:19.110 --> 00:10:20.430 because I know you you had some fun with this. 158 00:10:20.610 --> 00:10:25.740 But that I said previously, it almost sounded like they sounded like people I know 159 00:10:25.740 --> 00:10:29.250 or like just people. They sound like us when they're complaining about the monotony of 160 00:10:29.250 --> 00:10:32.130 these office jobs or computer jobs. 161 00:10:32.130 --> 00:10:35.820 And, you know, there was one of the guys that was complaining that so many people are 162 00:10:35.820 --> 00:10:40.560 addicted to online or addicted to Twitter, Like, they're just like it. 163 00:10:40.560 --> 00:10:44.160 It's like, yeah, like so that social media stuff gets everybody. 164 00:10:44.880 --> 00:10:49.800 So was just it was just interesting though, again, like it's the problems that we seem to 165 00:10:49.800 --> 00:10:54.540 run into a lot of times with our you know from a societal standpoint fulfillment, you 166 00:10:54.540 --> 00:10:57.360 know, are you fulfilled with your job, your career and all that stuff? 167 00:10:57.360 --> 00:11:02.220 It seems like a lot of that has to do more with not not us as individuals. 168 00:11:02.830 --> 00:11:07.960 But the setup, you know, just the way that we are running our society seems to to foster 169 00:11:07.960 --> 00:11:10.450 this a little bit. And that's not to say we're doing something wrong. 170 00:11:10.480 --> 00:11:13.750 It's not to say you're doing something right, but it's just interesting that when 171 00:11:13.750 --> 00:11:18.070 they tried when when these folks try to fit into a similar structure to what we have, 172 00:11:18.070 --> 00:11:20.200 they start having the same complaints that we have here. 173 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:20.620 People have. 174 00:11:21.010 --> 00:11:25.900 Yeah, maybe people just don't like bureaucracies and find them boring, but. 175 00:11:25.900 --> 00:11:29.140 They also don't like bureaucracy from the inside or the outside. 176 00:11:29.150 --> 00:11:30.880 But nobody but a better way, though. 177 00:11:31.180 --> 00:11:35.050 That's what I was going to say. But they appear to be necessary for the functioning of 178 00:11:35.050 --> 00:11:40.510 what we and I guess Western societies in modern time consider a good functioning 179 00:11:40.510 --> 00:11:46.900 government. Think about the countries that we as Americans tend to revere in some way or 180 00:11:46.900 --> 00:11:51.280 form because of their efficiencies and work ethic and all that. 181 00:11:51.280 --> 00:11:56.530 And I'm thinking of countries like Germany and Switzerland and Japan, you know, and 182 00:11:56.530 --> 00:12:00.760 countries like that. We tend to look highly at those kind of go, wow, they're very put 183 00:12:00.760 --> 00:12:03.830 together, those people, and they run everything, you know, efficiently. 184 00:12:03.850 --> 00:12:09.400 I'm pretty sure we would consider their governments big bureaucracies, especially the 185 00:12:09.400 --> 00:12:11.230 way we think about governments in America. 186 00:12:11.230 --> 00:12:15.790 You know, and but we seem to say, wow, those countries are so, you know, disciplined and 187 00:12:15.790 --> 00:12:21.880 well put together. And. So my point is, is that it always looks good from the outside. 188 00:12:22.090 --> 00:12:26.230 And it's just like anything I guess if I said that on a country level, we could say 189 00:12:26.230 --> 00:12:30.610 this now, maybe on an individual level, people that look like they're in great shape 190 00:12:31.090 --> 00:12:33.790 and, you know, it looks great from the outside. 191 00:12:34.690 --> 00:12:36.520 That looks great. And we all want to be there. 192 00:12:36.730 --> 00:12:42.130 But you know what? A lot less people want to put in the work of disciplined eating and 193 00:12:42.370 --> 00:12:46.390 commitment to to active activity and exercise on a regular basis and all that. 194 00:12:46.390 --> 00:12:48.820 Right. And I think it's the same thing with a society. 195 00:12:48.820 --> 00:12:50.920 We might look over and say, Oh, that looks cool. 196 00:12:51.520 --> 00:12:56.800 But when people actually are asked to conform to a system and I think we saw this. 197 00:12:56.800 --> 00:13:00.310 All of those places you mentioned just have a lot of rules, you know, And it's like. 198 00:13:00.310 --> 00:13:03.220 If we look at how they handled the COVID pandemic, for example. 199 00:13:03.310 --> 00:13:09.100 Now, we could argue all day about who handled it the most effective or who maybe 200 00:13:09.100 --> 00:13:10.450 stumbled a bit and all that. 201 00:13:10.450 --> 00:13:15.190 But I'm sure as Americans, we would not have welcomed how those three countries I 202 00:13:15.190 --> 00:13:18.400 mentioned handled specifically because they seem to be a lot more aggressive than our 203 00:13:18.400 --> 00:13:24.340 country was. And so in some ways we look up and revere those type of societies and then 204 00:13:24.340 --> 00:13:27.310 in other ways we don't. And I think it's part of that where just a lot of things 205 00:13:27.310 --> 00:13:29.170 always look better from the outside. 206 00:13:29.170 --> 00:13:35.620 And I think what this article shows us is even the insurgents and the jihadists have 207 00:13:35.620 --> 00:13:36.820 their limits, right? 208 00:13:36.820 --> 00:13:40.300 They it looks good from the outside to go take over a country. 209 00:13:40.720 --> 00:13:41.170 It looks. 210 00:13:41.170 --> 00:13:42.310 Fine. It's like, oh, we're going to. 211 00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:43.690 That's what I meant by the ideals. 212 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:45.010 These guys are idealists. 213 00:13:45.020 --> 00:13:46.450 They're like, Yeah, we're going to do this. 214 00:13:46.480 --> 00:13:51.010 We're going to set up this religious utopia, and everybody's going to pray, you know, five 215 00:13:51.010 --> 00:13:52.600 times a day and all this other stuff. 216 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:55.450 And it's like, Well, well, how are you actually going to do all that stuff? 217 00:13:55.590 --> 00:13:58.030 You know, it's not just by proclamation, you know. 218 00:13:58.390 --> 00:14:02.470 That that has a fridge that needs electricity so the food stays cold so he can feed his 219 00:14:02.470 --> 00:14:05.680 kids. You know, at some point he's not going to be praying five times a day of his 220 00:14:05.680 --> 00:14:06.760 electricity's off. 221 00:14:07.030 --> 00:14:10.450 He's going to be coming for you in that in that in that government office. 222 00:14:10.450 --> 00:14:14.560 And so it's it's you know, and you said something interesting, I'll pass it back 223 00:14:14.560 --> 00:14:19.810 because maybe you can expound on it, which is the idea that these guys are being 224 00:14:19.810 --> 00:14:22.960 rewarded for being, quote unquote, loyal to the Taliban. 225 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:27.490 Yeah. And so the Taliban, which I can appreciate whenever you have especially this 226 00:14:27.490 --> 00:14:31.750 was a war between the Taliban and I would say maybe the moderate Afghans who didn't 227 00:14:31.750 --> 00:14:32.890 want the Taliban there. 228 00:14:32.890 --> 00:14:37.180 And when we left, you know, clearly the moderates didn't have support anymore and all 229 00:14:37.180 --> 00:14:38.440 left or got killed. 230 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:39.970 And so the. 231 00:14:39.970 --> 00:14:40.750 The. 232 00:14:41.320 --> 00:14:44.290 What I'm curious for your kind of further comment is. 233 00:14:45.550 --> 00:14:51.640 Like, what makes you make that comment that because these guys are loyal and are rewarded 234 00:14:51.640 --> 00:14:55.120 for that they might be in the wrong seat of the bus for their skill set? 235 00:14:55.120 --> 00:14:56.860 And why is that bad for the society? 236 00:14:56.890 --> 00:14:58.750 Well, no, not I'll say this. 237 00:14:58.990 --> 00:15:02.890 My view of that is and that's why I said without judgment, it's just like, yo, it's 238 00:15:02.890 --> 00:15:07.330 just an observation. It's like, okay, well, these guys did have a choice on, Hey, what 239 00:15:07.330 --> 00:15:08.720 kind of life do you want to live? 240 00:15:08.740 --> 00:15:13.780 And as you said, the guy 24 years old, he you know, he made his choice within the last 241 00:15:13.780 --> 00:15:14.980 five, six, seven, eight years. 242 00:15:14.980 --> 00:15:19.080 And he could have joined the the US coalition government or whatever, you know, 243 00:15:19.150 --> 00:15:24.160 US led coalition government and started stamping things or become an engineer doing 244 00:15:24.160 --> 00:15:26.710 this or that. But he chose he's like, no, I want to be a jihadist. 245 00:15:26.830 --> 00:15:31.870 So their selection, the fact that they were in the Taliban, they were Taliban fighters, 246 00:15:31.870 --> 00:15:36.850 shows a a show, something about them already, you know, in terms of just what type 247 00:15:36.850 --> 00:15:39.520 of person they are. And that's not to again, there's no judgment there. 248 00:15:39.520 --> 00:15:42.310 Like it's the same as when you turn 18 here. 249 00:15:42.310 --> 00:15:44.800 Like you can go to college, you can go to the army, you can there's a lot of things you 250 00:15:44.800 --> 00:15:49.240 can do. And a lot of times those what you choose says stuff about like what interests 251 00:15:49.240 --> 00:15:54.010 you, you know? And so what I'm saying is that in that and so now you've taken people 252 00:15:54.010 --> 00:15:56.830 that when they had a chance to choose the direction of their life, they went one 253 00:15:56.830 --> 00:16:00.730 direction. And then now you're saying, okay, okay, guys, we won. 254 00:16:00.970 --> 00:16:07.630 So okay, I need people here though, that I know are in it for me and that I can trust 255 00:16:07.630 --> 00:16:08.920 and so forth. So I'm going to stick you here. 256 00:16:09.130 --> 00:16:12.370 I'm going to stick you in this bureaucracy, this this bureaucratic space, this 257 00:16:12.520 --> 00:16:14.830 bureaucratic space, because I need our we need our people here. 258 00:16:14.830 --> 00:16:18.070 We can't leave the people who we just overthrew in power because they might try to 259 00:16:18.070 --> 00:16:19.360 work around to undermine us. 260 00:16:19.360 --> 00:16:23.020 Or worse yet, well, I don't know if it's worse or not, but also bad. 261 00:16:23.020 --> 00:16:27.040 Equally bad. Remember, part of the reason why the US, the people who were allied with 262 00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:31.630 the US in the government, part of the reason why they failed so quickly after we left is 263 00:16:31.630 --> 00:16:33.280 because they were rife with corruption. 264 00:16:33.280 --> 00:16:37.000 You know, I think these guys were stealing money, you know, like left and right as far 265 00:16:37.000 --> 00:16:40.240 as that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, if the Taliban is like we got to we got to get this 266 00:16:40.240 --> 00:16:43.810 corruption out, out, out the paint, the quickest way to do that is to stick the 267 00:16:43.810 --> 00:16:47.980 people who you were just in caves with, you know, take on taking on fire, returning fire, 268 00:16:47.980 --> 00:16:49.360 like I know I can count on this dude. 269 00:16:49.390 --> 00:16:51.330 Yo. Hey, man, get in here. 270 00:16:51.340 --> 00:16:53.800 Make sure nobody's, you know, like, let me make sure these people aren't stealing a 271 00:16:53.800 --> 00:16:55.030 bunch of money off the top, you know? 272 00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:57.460 So again, I'm saying this. 273 00:16:57.460 --> 00:17:01.930 It's probably a good idea for them to do that, you know, And so but it's just it 274 00:17:01.930 --> 00:17:05.320 reveals, though, when they start complaining, like, yeah, man, this is trash, 275 00:17:05.320 --> 00:17:07.960 man. I didn't want to I didn't sign up for jihad to be doing all this. 276 00:17:07.960 --> 00:17:11.650 It makes sense. I get it, you know, But it's just one of those things. 277 00:17:11.650 --> 00:17:15.700 It's we hear often that the revolutionaries aren't always the one that finished the 278 00:17:15.700 --> 00:17:18.550 revolution, so to speak, because people want stability at a certain point. 279 00:17:18.790 --> 00:17:23.620 And so now these guys are faced with the challenge of providing stability and we can 280 00:17:24.220 --> 00:17:30.010 smile and laugh or whatever, but I can respect that they're making this effort, you 281 00:17:30.010 --> 00:17:36.610 know, to to try to to to to bring some level of of accountability in order or to maintain 282 00:17:36.610 --> 00:17:38.350 it at least. And, you know, to to to do that. 283 00:17:38.440 --> 00:17:41.200 I can respect that because it's like, yeah, that's that's what you got to do if you're 284 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:42.490 going to step into that that seat. 285 00:17:42.820 --> 00:17:46.330 It goes back to the conversation we had just in recent weeks. 286 00:17:46.450 --> 00:17:52.820 I don't think it was a show topic, but we brought it up that the Taliban, you know, 287 00:17:52.900 --> 00:17:56.230 when they were they recently banned girls from all school. 288 00:17:56.230 --> 00:18:00.220 Yeah, not just university or high schools, just like all education. 289 00:18:00.220 --> 00:18:04.840 And what I found interesting when I was reading about it was the infighting within 290 00:18:04.840 --> 00:18:06.070 the Taliban. Yeah. 291 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:11.800 That there's you know, there are moderates who understand that the world is looking at 292 00:18:11.800 --> 00:18:15.820 them and that Afghanistan right now and trying to figure out how to deal with a 293 00:18:15.820 --> 00:18:24.520 country that is, you know, one of probably the poorest and has one of the lowest levels 294 00:18:24.520 --> 00:18:26.560 of infrastructure, all that kind of stuff that we know not. 295 00:18:26.560 --> 00:18:28.420 A ton of natural resources like. 296 00:18:28.450 --> 00:18:28.990 Yeah. 297 00:18:29.290 --> 00:18:33.280 And they know that they're going to need, you know, to deal with the IMF and the World Bank 298 00:18:33.280 --> 00:18:36.460 and other countries lending them money for infrastructure build and doing trade deals, 299 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:39.130 you know, whatever they can export and what do they need to import? 300 00:18:39.130 --> 00:18:43.990 And the moderates understand that the rest of the world will frown on that. 301 00:18:43.990 --> 00:18:46.690 By the way. Hold on, hold on. When you say moderate, you're talking about the moderate 302 00:18:46.690 --> 00:18:50.410 Taliban, not the not the people that they throw out about, like actually people of the 303 00:18:50.410 --> 00:18:52.510 Taliban that were like, oh, we got to do things a different way. 304 00:18:52.510 --> 00:18:54.690 Like like any group they have that or. 305 00:18:54.700 --> 00:18:55.050 Yeah, it's. 306 00:18:55.330 --> 00:19:00.010 It's, it's you know, yeah, they're Muslim, they're this, they're that, but they are more 307 00:19:00.010 --> 00:19:03.970 moderate in their way of thinking in terms of how they want to engage the world. 308 00:19:03.970 --> 00:19:05.110 And they understand that. 309 00:19:05.110 --> 00:19:11.080 News headlines that say the Taliban's banning all girls from school forever doesn't 310 00:19:11.080 --> 00:19:16.990 look good. And I think that it goes back to this governing thing that and you're right, 311 00:19:16.990 --> 00:19:20.650 that the kind of forever joke that everyone's heard, that, you know, the people 312 00:19:20.650 --> 00:19:24.790 that start the revolution aren't the ones that that either finish it or or kind of or 313 00:19:24.790 --> 00:19:32.860 thereafter is because both being a radical and turning everything over and upsetting the 314 00:19:32.860 --> 00:19:38.110 apple cart in the society and being a moderate who's a bureaucrat that just wants 315 00:19:38.110 --> 00:19:41.890 to keep their head down and keep working and encounter things together. 316 00:19:41.890 --> 00:19:43.810 Yeah, you know, two things together. 317 00:19:43.810 --> 00:19:44.950 Yeah, they're two to different. 318 00:19:45.010 --> 00:19:49.720 Mindsets, period. So it's almost impossible to have a human being that can do both 319 00:19:49.720 --> 00:19:55.340 because and especially and probably in the same society, because clearly the radicals 320 00:19:55.360 --> 00:20:02.050 going to look at the bureaucrat and vice versa as as threats to their own stability. 321 00:20:02.050 --> 00:20:03.580 Right. And so and so. 322 00:20:03.580 --> 00:20:08.110 So and we'll see this play out in our own country, you know, where we have like people 323 00:20:08.110 --> 00:20:11.650 that are more radical and that literally, like sometimes you'll hear him say it like, 324 00:20:11.650 --> 00:20:12.820 look, let's just blow it up. 325 00:20:12.820 --> 00:20:14.800 Let's just the debt ceiling thing. 326 00:20:14.800 --> 00:20:17.440 Let's just have have the US default. 327 00:20:17.440 --> 00:20:18.600 And it's like, what? 328 00:20:18.610 --> 00:20:22.180 Like that's the plan, you know, And it's like, but so we see that though, and they're 329 00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:23.500 like, I don't care if the US defaults. 330 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:26.560 And then you got the people who are like, Hey, well, yeah, yeah, let's make a point, 331 00:20:26.560 --> 00:20:31.000 but let's not let's not drive the car into the ditch just because we're mad at the car 332 00:20:31.130 --> 00:20:33.850 or just because we want a nicer car like, you know, so or whatever. 333 00:20:33.850 --> 00:20:35.530 So we see that play out. 334 00:20:35.530 --> 00:20:41.620 And so a lot of times as as voters, you know, like, I think we have to be cognizant 335 00:20:41.620 --> 00:20:46.570 of that when we're when it's nice, the radical or the one who is like, yeah, let's 336 00:20:46.570 --> 00:20:48.000 just screw all this stuff. 337 00:20:48.010 --> 00:20:49.720 A lot of times that is enticing. 338 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:52.330 That is that's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I agree. 339 00:20:52.810 --> 00:20:55.510 I'm mad too. You know, it arouses passion. 340 00:20:55.510 --> 00:20:59.230 But if you go too far in that direction, a lot of times, then you can flush down the 341 00:20:59.230 --> 00:21:02.530 toilet a lot of things that you've built and then us case, you know, things built over 342 00:21:02.530 --> 00:21:06.460 hundreds of years that some people are like right now just willing to flush it all down 343 00:21:06.460 --> 00:21:09.640 the toilet because they're not happy about certain things or because they want partizan 344 00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:10.990 advantage or they think like. 345 00:21:10.990 --> 00:21:13.030 And so and that's that's a lot, you know. 346 00:21:13.030 --> 00:21:16.450 So I mean, so it's us voters got to look at it and say, okay, well is that something is 347 00:21:16.450 --> 00:21:17.980 that how we want to rock? 348 00:21:18.310 --> 00:21:22.510 Well, I think, you know, we just have to be smart enough in this country to cut through 349 00:21:22.510 --> 00:21:26.940 the ecosystems and to see what's what and who's who, because we've lost. 350 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:28.990 Yeah, well, we've definitely lost. 351 00:21:28.990 --> 00:21:32.800 No, because I was going to say, the ecosystem also speaks a lot to our country's 352 00:21:32.800 --> 00:21:37.900 infrastructure and what we've built over time, because what I'm looking at, what I'm 353 00:21:37.900 --> 00:21:39.970 reading, like you said about some of these guys are snipers. 354 00:21:39.970 --> 00:21:41.290 Some of these guys were commanders. 355 00:21:41.500 --> 00:21:44.410 And I also have first, I'm thinking while you were talking earlier, I'm thinking of my 356 00:21:44.410 --> 00:21:49.510 head. Yeah. This is the advantage of having civilian leadership of the military generally 357 00:21:49.510 --> 00:21:53.830 in the United States. But then I corrected myself and said it's actually more nuanced 358 00:21:53.830 --> 00:21:59.110 than that because we have a lot of former military people do a great job in this 359 00:21:59.110 --> 00:22:04.450 country, whether they join politics and they work as public service in the government or 360 00:22:04.450 --> 00:22:08.350 they work join private corporations and become leaders in our corporate America. 361 00:22:08.350 --> 00:22:10.150 So I thought, so what is it the difference? 362 00:22:10.150 --> 00:22:13.890 And then I thought about the United States, and I'm sure now we're not the end of the 363 00:22:13.890 --> 00:22:19.240 country, but we did a great job from early on fuzing actually education with our 364 00:22:19.240 --> 00:22:20.530 military institutions. 365 00:22:20.530 --> 00:22:27.010 So think about the famous universities we have, like the Citadel, like West Point, like 366 00:22:27.010 --> 00:22:28.390 the Naval Academy in Annapolis. 367 00:22:28.390 --> 00:22:32.980 I mean, those if you get a degree from any of those three and you don't go into the 368 00:22:32.980 --> 00:22:36.250 military, every private corporation is probably wanting to hire you. 369 00:22:36.340 --> 00:22:40.120 They're just well known universities that teach people good things. 370 00:22:40.120 --> 00:22:44.740 And I think that's something that shouldn't be lost in any of these conversations. 371 00:22:44.740 --> 00:22:52.060 When we talk about what makes our country unique in a in a special way, in a good way, 372 00:22:52.090 --> 00:22:56.950 is that we've been able to we don't just have a military that's only brute force. 373 00:22:56.950 --> 00:23:01.720 We also have a military that's highly intellectually skilled and able to make 374 00:23:01.720 --> 00:23:03.010 decisions. And I think. 375 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:06.690 We can contrast that and this is now separate topic. 376 00:23:06.690 --> 00:23:09.930 But just with the year that Rush has had trying to get Ukraine. 377 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:15.600 That's that that appears to be a system that doesn't promote learning intellectually. 378 00:23:15.600 --> 00:23:19.020 They have other issues, too, though, which you've pointed out as far as chain of command 379 00:23:19.020 --> 00:23:22.470 and how, you know, they don't give people the opportunity even to be flexible in their 380 00:23:22.470 --> 00:23:23.490 feet. But I want to. 381 00:23:23.730 --> 00:23:26.490 And we can close up this topic, but I want to just piggyback on your point, because I 382 00:23:26.490 --> 00:23:27.720 think it was an excellent point that you made. 383 00:23:29.430 --> 00:23:34.560 And I'll go back to one of the the the quotes from the story where the guy was like, 384 00:23:34.560 --> 00:23:39.630 he misses the jihad because it was you know, there was more freedom, more free time and 385 00:23:39.630 --> 00:23:43.380 stuff like that. Nobody's going into our military like, wait, yo, let me go home and 386 00:23:43.380 --> 00:23:44.610 go to the military. So I get a bunch of free time. 387 00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:47.130 You know, it's just it's like, you know, you're learning. 388 00:23:47.130 --> 00:23:48.450 You learn it intellectually. 389 00:23:48.450 --> 00:23:50.460 You know, discipline is very important, stuff like that. 390 00:23:50.460 --> 00:23:53.430 And so it's a different kind of setup, so to speak. 391 00:23:53.820 --> 00:23:59.250 You know, like and part of that is because we're are an established power versus an 392 00:23:59.250 --> 00:24:01.890 insurgent, you know, somebody trying to overthrow an established power. 393 00:24:01.890 --> 00:24:04.680 I'm sure that wasn't the colonial army. 394 00:24:04.680 --> 00:24:07.800 You know, that wasn't the case for the colonial army necessarily. 395 00:24:07.800 --> 00:24:15.690 If you go back to 1775 or 1777, you know, like but because we've seen, yeah, training, 396 00:24:15.870 --> 00:24:19.980 having military that's well trained and you have having the intellectual having the, the 397 00:24:20.040 --> 00:24:23.760 life skills, so to speak, all that stuff translates into all these other fields. 398 00:24:23.760 --> 00:24:27.030 And so yeah, it's not that you can't look at that as apples to apples here. 399 00:24:27.030 --> 00:24:32.790 That's why I think it's more the apples to apples is more of the that idealism political 400 00:24:33.120 --> 00:24:36.300 extreme type of thing, you know, like where it's like, yeah, we got to have it. 401 00:24:36.300 --> 00:24:40.230 We got to set up our political system exactly the way that we say exactly what we 402 00:24:40.230 --> 00:24:41.790 want, and we'll do anything to make that happen. 403 00:24:42.270 --> 00:24:46.080 You know, and if you look at it from that standpoint, those are the people that if you 404 00:24:46.080 --> 00:24:51.690 put them in power in our system, have a hard time adjusting to it and dealing with it. 405 00:24:51.690 --> 00:24:56.910 Well, I have to disagree because I would just say that it's from my understanding it's 406 00:24:56.940 --> 00:25:01.410 wokeism that's the issue with the military, not all this sycophants and all that. 407 00:25:01.410 --> 00:25:07.230 So, you know what the issue is, I realize as you're talking is that the Taliban have to 408 00:25:07.230 --> 00:25:08.370 deal with wokeism. 409 00:25:10.050 --> 00:25:12.450 That's why that's why they stop the girls from going to school. 410 00:25:12.510 --> 00:25:14.340 And yeah, see, it's pretty. 411 00:25:14.340 --> 00:25:15.510 Simple. It is. 412 00:25:15.510 --> 00:25:16.530 It is all simple. 413 00:25:16.530 --> 00:25:17.550 Yeah, it's all simple. Yeah. 414 00:25:17.550 --> 00:25:19.830 It's even a law about anti woke. 415 00:25:19.830 --> 00:25:22.850 So that's going to solve everything. 416 00:25:23.310 --> 00:25:25.230 Yeah, it'll be solved everything. 417 00:25:25.470 --> 00:25:27.570 So yeah. I mean but no, I mean that's, that's hilarious. 418 00:25:28.020 --> 00:25:32.070 But you know it's, it's definitely they're dealing with their struggles. 419 00:25:32.730 --> 00:25:33.870 Their struggles we're dealing with. 420 00:25:33.870 --> 00:25:34.050 Oh, I. 421 00:25:34.050 --> 00:25:37.650 Know. I just realize. Yeah, the Taliban's got to deal with these woke moderates in there 422 00:25:37.650 --> 00:25:42.930 that are upset that maybe girls being not going to school at all ever, it might look 423 00:25:42.930 --> 00:25:45.270 bad to the rest of the world and cut off some funding. 424 00:25:45.270 --> 00:25:48.710 So, yeah, you know, everybody's got to deal with his woke stuff, you know, and we should 425 00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:50.400 go learn how the Taliban deals with it. 426 00:25:50.850 --> 00:25:51.870 That'll be interesting. We'll see. 427 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:54.420 But clearly they're not trained on how to talk about it. 428 00:25:54.420 --> 00:25:57.750 You know, when they did these interviews, they didn't they didn't regurgitate the talk, 429 00:25:57.840 --> 00:25:59.820 the right talking points. So we didn't identify that. 430 00:25:59.820 --> 00:26:01.770 Right. They don't have our media skill. 431 00:26:02.940 --> 00:26:07.890 There you go. So I want to jump to our second topic, though, And this is more of a you 432 00:26:07.890 --> 00:26:11.040 know, there are several things we want to touch on here because it's just it's several 433 00:26:11.040 --> 00:26:13.140 things. It's it is Black History Month. 434 00:26:13.140 --> 00:26:15.660 And we did one, there were a couple of other things we wanted to speak on. 435 00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:19.500 We spoke a couple of weeks ago just about the teaching of black history and kind of the 436 00:26:19.500 --> 00:26:21.030 friction that comes along with that. 437 00:26:21.270 --> 00:26:24.840 But there's just some interesting things that have happened in American history. 438 00:26:24.840 --> 00:26:29.730 And so we so often it's black history as a subset of American history. 439 00:26:29.730 --> 00:26:34.170 But when we think about it, we think of it not as a subset as a whole, but as something 440 00:26:34.170 --> 00:26:35.580 separate, something that is parallel. 441 00:26:35.580 --> 00:26:40.860 But it's always important to remember that this stuff is happening along with and as a 442 00:26:40.860 --> 00:26:42.150 part of American history. 443 00:26:42.150 --> 00:26:44.610 And so learning black history is learning American history in that sense. 444 00:26:44.610 --> 00:26:48.270 And so we want to look like first thing we're going to talk about is just all the way 445 00:26:48.270 --> 00:26:49.740 back to the Revolutionary War. 446 00:26:49.740 --> 00:26:53.010 Now, many are aware, but not everyone. 447 00:26:53.220 --> 00:26:58.170 Crispus Attucks, the first casualty of the Civil War, was a black man, a radical. 448 00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:01.890 You know, it was out there trying to, you know, trying to get the British troops out of 449 00:27:01.890 --> 00:27:06.870 there. And, you know, but black folks had an interesting blacks in America, had an 450 00:27:06.870 --> 00:27:10.530 interesting kind of experience during the Revolutionary War, because there are some 451 00:27:10.530 --> 00:27:12.690 that served with the Americans and also some that served with the British. 452 00:27:12.690 --> 00:27:17.880 The British was promising freedom, you know, during that time to to try to get black folks 453 00:27:18.120 --> 00:27:22.500 on board with them. But even with that, many, many, many blacks still served with the 454 00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:25.500 union force of oil. Gas wouldn't be the union at that time, the colonial versus the 455 00:27:25.500 --> 00:27:26.850 American colonial forces. 456 00:27:26.850 --> 00:27:33.210 So, you know, just from that in that context, the the the black black Americans in 457 00:27:33.210 --> 00:27:36.810 the Revolutionary War, what what's most interesting or stands out to you as far as 458 00:27:36.840 --> 00:27:37.590 that history? 459 00:27:38.400 --> 00:27:42.450 There's there's a lot obviously, we're not going to cover it all in this discussion. 460 00:27:42.450 --> 00:27:43.620 But something you. 461 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:49.800 Know, just I mean, even getting reminded of Crispus Attucks being the first casualty of 462 00:27:49.800 --> 00:27:54.120 the American Revolution and that he's a black man, like I had learned that at some 463 00:27:54.120 --> 00:27:58.740 point, but it just wasn't something that was fresh out the tip of my brain. 464 00:27:59.610 --> 00:28:02.550 And so it just, you know, to your point, right, that. 465 00:28:04.580 --> 00:28:12.860 In preparing for this part of the show just was another reminder that black participation 466 00:28:12.860 --> 00:28:18.350 in the American Revolution was like every other experience of blacks in this country. 467 00:28:18.350 --> 00:28:23.690 It was part of the American story and part of the literally the fabric of this country 468 00:28:23.900 --> 00:28:25.670 woven together by all these different people. 469 00:28:26.120 --> 00:28:30.920 And so to your point, I learned that you're right, there were 20,000, what they called 470 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:35.240 black loyalists that pledged loyalty to Great Britain, because, like you're saying, 471 00:28:35.240 --> 00:28:41.360 Great Britain was promising freedom for those that were enslaved. 472 00:28:41.570 --> 00:28:45.440 And of course, the American colonists did as well many times. 473 00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:48.110 So there were 9000, what they called black patriots. 474 00:28:49.220 --> 00:28:52.010 So what what's interesting is that. 475 00:28:52.790 --> 00:28:56.780 Both sides were jockeying for the participation of blacks. 476 00:28:56.900 --> 00:28:59.780 And again, it's just an interesting thing that that. 477 00:29:01.210 --> 00:29:06.910 You know, when when, when times are scarce and you need stuff, everybody becomes an 478 00:29:06.910 --> 00:29:09.340 ally. And so blacks were being courted by both sides. 479 00:29:09.340 --> 00:29:14.380 I found that interesting. And then also the influences of the Spanish and the French as 480 00:29:14.380 --> 00:29:19.150 well, because everybody was jockeying to try and, well, you know, the United States. 481 00:29:19.360 --> 00:29:24.790 What stood out to me about this most was that the the armed forces, by and large, at that 482 00:29:24.790 --> 00:29:27.400 time now speaking of the American were integrated. 483 00:29:28.330 --> 00:29:31.930 Yeah. That it wasn't like they they didn't take the time to say, oh, we're going to set 484 00:29:31.930 --> 00:29:35.170 up the you know, got segregated union or segregated unit or like they just say, hey, 485 00:29:35.380 --> 00:29:37.410 we need men come in here, you know. 486 00:29:37.420 --> 00:29:44.380 And apparently there were it was a no a well known thing that the on average, the black 487 00:29:44.380 --> 00:29:48.300 soldiers served a lot longer than than the average soldier, you know, like so their 488 00:29:48.310 --> 00:29:51.910 their man hours, their numbers weren't as high, but their man hours spent was a much 489 00:29:51.910 --> 00:29:55.450 higher percentage of of contribution, which obviously makes a big difference because you 490 00:29:55.450 --> 00:29:59.990 know experienced people over the course of a war end up being very valuable. 491 00:29:59.990 --> 00:30:03.790 And so, you know, like but again, this is one of those things that when I look at it, 492 00:30:03.790 --> 00:30:06.280 it's like, well, why do we do Black History Month or why do we have Black history? 493 00:30:06.280 --> 00:30:10.510 And it's like, well, a lot of times people aren't aware of this stuff. 494 00:30:10.510 --> 00:30:16.210 And it's not that you can't tell a an American history without telling history 495 00:30:16.210 --> 00:30:19.810 about black folks, but it's just like you can't get an accurate picture a lot of times 496 00:30:19.810 --> 00:30:23.800 because Crispus Attucks wasn't just some dude who was walking along on the sidewalk 497 00:30:23.800 --> 00:30:27.160 and happened to catch a stray bullet like he was, you know, out there. 498 00:30:27.160 --> 00:30:30.550 He was an instigator, you know, trying to, you know, like pushing against the British 499 00:30:30.550 --> 00:30:33.730 troops and all that kind of stuff. Or, you know, as you point out, the black Patriots, 500 00:30:33.730 --> 00:30:37.240 these are people that were making valuable contributions the whole time. 501 00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:42.280 And that's when we think of the colonial army or everything like that because of the 502 00:30:42.280 --> 00:30:44.140 way it's presented to us, because of the way we learn about it. 503 00:30:44.140 --> 00:30:46.570 You don't think about that as an integrated fighting force. 504 00:30:46.570 --> 00:30:48.570 Yeah, but it was, you know, so that's. 505 00:30:49.570 --> 00:30:54.370 No, I was just going to piggyback and say on the, on, on at the height one fifth of the 506 00:30:54.700 --> 00:30:57.460 Northern Army was black Americans. 507 00:30:57.460 --> 00:31:03.730 And well, what's interesting when you talk about the desegregated nature of the US 508 00:31:03.910 --> 00:31:07.720 experience during the revolution, it's kind of fascinating because what I learned in 509 00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:15.580 preparing was in 1784 and 17, 1785, so just after the revolution, a few years after, and 510 00:31:15.580 --> 00:31:19.840 when America was becoming a country, Connecticut and Massachusetts banned blacks 511 00:31:19.840 --> 00:31:21.280 from their militaries. 512 00:31:21.280 --> 00:31:30.430 And then in 1919, in 1792, the US Congress formally excluded blacks from the military. 513 00:31:30.430 --> 00:31:35.890 So that's when you started having the segregation immediately upon the founding of 514 00:31:35.890 --> 00:31:38.170 the country, as a country founded in 1789, 1790. 515 00:31:39.070 --> 00:31:41.470 So two years later. 516 00:31:41.920 --> 00:31:43.930 Well, that's when they put in the Constitution, like basically the 517 00:31:43.930 --> 00:31:47.330 constitution, because we lived under the Articles of Confederation, you know, like for 518 00:31:47.410 --> 00:31:48.850 a while. And that didn't really work. 519 00:31:48.850 --> 00:31:50.260 It wasn't strong enough. So. 520 00:31:50.710 --> 00:31:54.970 No, I know. It just tells you what was on people's mind at that time. 521 00:31:54.970 --> 00:31:56.350 Yeah. Like what was important. 522 00:31:56.350 --> 00:32:01.300 Right. And so it still tells you that unfortunately, racism was obviously alive and 523 00:32:01.300 --> 00:32:05.680 healthy. If in the first two years of the founding of the country, one of the you know, 524 00:32:05.830 --> 00:32:10.600 one of the boxes to check was let's let's let's get the black guys out of the military. 525 00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:15.970 Yeah. And part of it, too, though, was and I can appreciate this if you're just looking at 526 00:32:15.970 --> 00:32:17.680 it from everyone's angle as being human beings. 527 00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:20.830 A lot of the whites were nervous to remember 1792. 528 00:32:22.420 --> 00:32:25.300 Slavery was still heavily enforced in this country. 529 00:32:26.260 --> 00:32:31.030 And so and even in the north, northern states still had slavery at that point. 530 00:32:31.030 --> 00:32:36.910 And so there was a lot of whites that were anxious about the idea of training blacks 531 00:32:36.910 --> 00:32:40.360 with firearms and saying, you know, we're black people being in the military, they're 532 00:32:40.360 --> 00:32:42.310 going to start slave rebellions and all this kind of stuff. 533 00:32:42.310 --> 00:32:47.470 So, you know, I can appreciate yeah, I can appreciate that. 534 00:32:47.470 --> 00:32:52.270 You know, if if, if I wasn't a black guy back then, I might have feel the same way, 535 00:32:52.270 --> 00:32:55.240 you know, just looking at it. Because and to your point, maybe they didn't know what they 536 00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:58.300 were doing. Oh, yeah, I wasn't alive then. 537 00:32:58.330 --> 00:32:58.750 Hey, guys. 538 00:32:58.750 --> 00:33:03.160 If we if we want to keep this gravy train going, we may not want to, you know, we may 539 00:33:03.160 --> 00:33:07.390 not want to get these guys the skills to to to stand up. 540 00:33:07.390 --> 00:33:13.360 But I mean, I think that also reveals, though, that when the when the the the crisis 541 00:33:13.360 --> 00:33:15.190 was on, they didn't worry about that. 542 00:33:15.190 --> 00:33:18.880 Yeah. You know, like at least the overriding sentiment wasn't to worry about that, hey, we 543 00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:23.380 got to deal with the crisis. And that shows you that the segregation, the exclusion that 544 00:33:23.380 --> 00:33:28.330 takes effort and wastes resources, you know, like it's like when when, when you don't have 545 00:33:28.510 --> 00:33:34.270 when you don't have the time, when you don't have extra time to spend on social codes, you 546 00:33:34.270 --> 00:33:39.850 know, and, you know, like just going through things like that, then, you know, if you if 547 00:33:39.850 --> 00:33:43.630 you don't have time or extra resources to put in a caste system, you just don't worry 548 00:33:43.630 --> 00:33:45.190 about it. You just have it all hands on deck. 549 00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:48.880 But then once we got got, the immediate crisis is over. 550 00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:54.040 Hey, let's let's now let's go in and put all, put our laws in as force to to enforce 551 00:33:54.040 --> 00:33:58.870 this caste system. So, I mean, I think that ultimately when you look at it like, again, 552 00:33:58.870 --> 00:34:00.400 it wasn't a conscious. 553 00:34:00.860 --> 00:34:03.560 For them to say we're not, we're going to make these integrated. 554 00:34:03.560 --> 00:34:05.360 It was like, no, no, no, we need the troops. 555 00:34:05.540 --> 00:34:06.220 Just bring them in. 556 00:34:06.230 --> 00:34:09.740 Well, it's kind of like when we did the discussion about the Tuskegee Airmen last 557 00:34:09.740 --> 00:34:14.930 year, it's the same thing, the necessity of World War Two and just needing to win right, 558 00:34:14.930 --> 00:34:17.290 against the Japanese and the Germans. 559 00:34:17.300 --> 00:34:20.630 You're fighting a war on two fronts, literally, literally across the world. 560 00:34:20.930 --> 00:34:25.250 Then all of a sudden, these blacks that were being excluded from being pilots all this 561 00:34:25.250 --> 00:34:31.130 time in the US system all of a sudden were given a chance and then excelled, you know. 562 00:34:31.310 --> 00:34:33.110 And so it's so it's interesting. 563 00:34:33.110 --> 00:34:33.740 So yeah. 564 00:34:33.740 --> 00:34:36.320 And so, you know, like and there's more on that. 565 00:34:36.530 --> 00:34:39.470 But you know, there was a couple of things we wanted to hit, so I didn't want to belabor 566 00:34:39.470 --> 00:34:45.200 any one. The second one that I wanted to kind of run through with you was, you know, 567 00:34:45.230 --> 00:34:51.290 like now most people know that that blacks fought for the United States side. 568 00:34:51.450 --> 00:34:54.410 We would call it the union. But I mean, the other side said they weren't part of the 569 00:34:54.410 --> 00:34:58.550 United States anymore. So, I mean, they fought for the US in the Civil War. 570 00:34:59.210 --> 00:35:03.020 But were you familiar before we started doing some reading and just kind of looking 571 00:35:03.020 --> 00:35:05.930 at that, how familiar, I should say, were you with the story of the Buffalo Soldiers, 572 00:35:05.930 --> 00:35:11.180 which they came after the Civil War and then continued on really until the Truman 573 00:35:11.180 --> 00:35:14.810 integrated the troops, but more most prominently in the 1800s? 574 00:35:14.810 --> 00:35:17.780 And what what about them did you find interesting? 575 00:35:18.200 --> 00:35:20.150 You know, just where you know, you're where are you and what did you. 576 00:35:20.150 --> 00:35:24.740 Find actually was less familiar with them than I was with the American Revolution 577 00:35:24.740 --> 00:35:26.270 history, which actually surprised me. 578 00:35:26.270 --> 00:35:31.940 I thought I thought because, you know, I've been a fan of the good old Bob Marley song. 579 00:35:32.270 --> 00:35:33.320 Yeah. For a long time. 580 00:35:33.320 --> 00:35:34.520 Your initial exposure to it. 581 00:35:34.520 --> 00:35:35.180 Yeah. I was like. 582 00:35:35.180 --> 00:35:40.880 Okay, yeah, these guys. So my first mission of ignorance was I thought that the Buffalo 583 00:35:41.180 --> 00:35:45.830 Soldiers were regiments that were fighting during the Civil War and to the point you 584 00:35:45.830 --> 00:35:51.050 just made, they were actually formed on September 21st of 1866. 585 00:35:51.350 --> 00:35:53.990 So a full year after the end of the war. 586 00:35:53.990 --> 00:36:00.590 And, you know, this is actually a part of American history to me, that is actually 587 00:36:00.590 --> 00:36:07.160 fascinating. I learned a lot in preparing for this segment of the discussion, and I'll 588 00:36:07.160 --> 00:36:09.560 get through some of it. I'll throw it back before I do. 589 00:36:09.560 --> 00:36:14.510 But what I found interesting was not only the history of the Buffalo soldiers coming 590 00:36:14.510 --> 00:36:20.180 post Civil War, but then the fact that they extended because really and this is where let 591 00:36:20.180 --> 00:36:24.530 me just nuance it a bit because what we just talked about coming out of the American 592 00:36:24.530 --> 00:36:27.350 Revolution, the the the. 593 00:36:27.350 --> 00:36:28.700 The there. 594 00:36:28.700 --> 00:36:34.610 Were black segregated black American units for the union during the war. 595 00:36:34.850 --> 00:36:36.250 And just to mention there were. 596 00:36:36.260 --> 00:36:37.610 Yeah, in the Civil War. Sorry. 597 00:36:37.610 --> 00:36:40.850 But the interesting thing to me is that. 598 00:36:42.170 --> 00:36:47.360 Because of segregation and the need to, I guess, have the black soldiers be separate. 599 00:36:47.780 --> 00:36:53.600 What happened was the Buffalo Soldiers were were a segregated unit. 600 00:36:53.600 --> 00:37:00.530 And it wasn't until 1948 when Harry Truman, with an executive order, desegregated the 601 00:37:00.530 --> 00:37:01.870 entire US military. 602 00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:06.920 You know, the Korean War was the last time that the 24th Regiment fought. 603 00:37:07.070 --> 00:37:07.880 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 604 00:37:08.120 --> 00:37:08.710 And that's my point. 605 00:37:08.720 --> 00:37:12.530 So the Korean War was actually the first since the because that was that was the war 606 00:37:12.530 --> 00:37:14.450 when the integration happened. 607 00:37:14.840 --> 00:37:15.170 So yeah. 608 00:37:15.620 --> 00:37:19.430 Yeah. So because Buffalo Soldiers for the audience, the term Buffalo Soldiers was a 609 00:37:19.430 --> 00:37:24.920 nickname given to the black regiments because the during the Indian wars literally 610 00:37:24.920 --> 00:37:29.420 the Indians called the blacks Buffalo's soldiers because they felt that the black 611 00:37:29.420 --> 00:37:32.900 people's hair was like buffalo hair and so and so. 612 00:37:33.030 --> 00:37:36.320 Started with one you know just a little bit of the history started with one but then the 613 00:37:36.320 --> 00:37:42.200 term came to to to refer to many of these regiments that were with the black. 614 00:37:42.200 --> 00:37:43.250 Regiments. Yeah. 615 00:37:43.250 --> 00:37:46.820 So it just was intriguing to me that even though I don't think they considered the 616 00:37:46.820 --> 00:37:50.570 people fighting in World War Two and in the Korean War, Buffalo soldiers, like you're 617 00:37:50.570 --> 00:37:55.400 saying, culturally, I think that ended in the early 20th century around the World War 618 00:37:55.400 --> 00:37:59.330 one time. But it's just interesting to that I learned I didn't realize that there was 619 00:37:59.330 --> 00:38:02.390 still like a segregated regiment in 1948. 620 00:38:02.570 --> 00:38:03.080 That's. 621 00:38:03.260 --> 00:38:04.160 Well, yeah, that's. 622 00:38:04.190 --> 00:38:05.330 Interesting to learn. Yeah. 623 00:38:05.330 --> 00:38:10.010 The prominence of it definitely was more of a 19th century, second half of the 19th 624 00:38:10.010 --> 00:38:14.720 century. A lot of the, like you said, the Indian Wars, even the Spanish-American War. 625 00:38:15.020 --> 00:38:16.940 That's I think that was when they were most prominent. 626 00:38:17.480 --> 00:38:22.100 And what stood out to me about it, actually, and what I didn't know was how intentional 627 00:38:22.100 --> 00:38:23.540 and organized that it was. 628 00:38:23.540 --> 00:38:27.110 As you said, I mean, this was something that was I thought it was like a remnant, you 629 00:38:27.110 --> 00:38:30.800 know, like, oh, we had these these these regiments from the Civil War, and then they 630 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:32.360 kind of just hung they stuck together. 631 00:38:32.360 --> 00:38:34.700 And so, you know, I didn't know this. 632 00:38:34.700 --> 00:38:35.780 They set this up. 633 00:38:35.830 --> 00:38:37.730 It was like, okay, yeah, and this is what we're going to do with them. 634 00:38:37.730 --> 00:38:38.990 And, you know, we have some issue here. 635 00:38:38.990 --> 00:38:41.360 We'll send out those guys and and so forth. 636 00:38:41.360 --> 00:38:46.460 And so it wasn't some it wasn't some case of charity or tokenism. 637 00:38:46.460 --> 00:38:49.580 It was like, no, no, no. This is you know, we want these this group right here. 638 00:38:49.580 --> 00:38:51.290 And then and they had to deal with it. 639 00:38:51.290 --> 00:38:54.290 They were well regarded, but they had to deal with racism. 640 00:38:54.290 --> 00:39:00.020 I mean, it's still America, but ultimately it was something that the legacy still lives 641 00:39:00.020 --> 00:39:03.740 on. You know, that it's okay during that time period, which is a time period, it's a 642 00:39:03.740 --> 00:39:04.880 fraught time period. 643 00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:09.230 You know, these are these are black soldiers going around the country as needed, as 644 00:39:09.230 --> 00:39:13.520 directed and doing stuff, you know, and sometimes dealing with dealing with just the 645 00:39:13.520 --> 00:39:15.860 population and them showing up as part of the struggle. 646 00:39:15.860 --> 00:39:18.170 But other times it's like, okay, yeah, we got to go take this hill and the 647 00:39:18.180 --> 00:39:20.120 Spanish-American War. You guys go do it, you know. 648 00:39:20.210 --> 00:39:25.880 So it was again that it was so intentional and organized to me was at the highest levels 649 00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:28.280 of the government, was something that was most notable about it. 650 00:39:28.280 --> 00:39:33.290 Well, and you know, I got a quick, fun fact, which I learned in researching this. 651 00:39:33.290 --> 00:39:38.390 So, you know, when the last Buffalo soldier died, like the last. 652 00:39:38.410 --> 00:39:40.910 Time I read a lot of the same stuff that you did. 653 00:39:41.990 --> 00:39:46.220 So I think it was 2005 at the age of 111. 654 00:39:46.220 --> 00:39:47.600 That's it. You got it right. 655 00:39:48.460 --> 00:39:50.300 I didn't know. I didn't remember. 656 00:39:50.300 --> 00:39:54.890 I didn't know if it was 2011 at 105 or 581. 657 00:39:55.370 --> 00:39:56.270 No, but it's just it's just. 658 00:39:56.270 --> 00:40:00.260 Fascinating that, like you, you and I were already adults, you know, work in our careers 659 00:40:00.260 --> 00:40:06.160 and stuff. And there was a guy still alive that was a Buffalo Soldiers, you know. 660 00:40:06.270 --> 00:40:09.950 Yeah. What it does is it reminds you that all this history isn't that far away from all 661 00:40:09.950 --> 00:40:11.630 of us. You know, it's only a few generations ago. 662 00:40:11.870 --> 00:40:17.000 And but what I also found fascinating, because to piggyback on what you said, so, 663 00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.100 you know, like I mentioned, the Buffalo Soldiers began in 1866, but in Kansas. 664 00:40:22.370 --> 00:40:29.720 Right. And so part of the issue was you had a lot of these black soldiers who, number 665 00:40:29.720 --> 00:40:32.930 one, like you said, had served in the Union Army. 666 00:40:33.290 --> 00:40:37.280 So they had skills. They knew how to handle rifles, they knew how to handle horses. 667 00:40:37.490 --> 00:40:42.980 And then you had also a lot of free blacks from southern states who were very skilled 668 00:40:42.980 --> 00:40:47.660 cattlemen, because I learned in reading all this stuff, like the state of Louisiana had a 669 00:40:47.660 --> 00:40:53.360 statute during slavery that you had to have at least two Negroes per 100 head of cattle. 670 00:40:53.780 --> 00:40:58.310 So for the large plantation owners and all that, you know, it was like by law they had 671 00:40:58.310 --> 00:41:01.700 to put some black dude on their plantation to be in charge of that. 672 00:41:01.700 --> 00:41:03.680 So what always. 673 00:41:03.680 --> 00:41:08.990 Intrigued me was what I learned when I was younger and growing up, but never saw any 674 00:41:08.990 --> 00:41:14.870 evidence on TV or TV shows I used to watch like The Lone Ranger, which is the idea of 675 00:41:14.870 --> 00:41:18.050 black cowboys and so and so. 676 00:41:18.500 --> 00:41:25.070 And not to get into that here, but one thing I learned recently was that between 1870 and 677 00:41:25.220 --> 00:41:31.670 1890, they estimate that 25% of all cowboys in the West, you know, southwest and Western 678 00:41:31.670 --> 00:41:32.960 states were black. Yeah. 679 00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:39.680 And for people like us, that born 1970s and kind of grew up with our modern media 680 00:41:39.680 --> 00:41:41.600 exposure of shows and people like. 681 00:41:41.720 --> 00:41:46.280 John Wayne and the Westerns and stuff that we grew up seeing that almost seemed like 682 00:41:46.280 --> 00:41:47.480 like a lie to me. 683 00:41:47.510 --> 00:41:51.340 Like, wow, how could there be that many black people as cowboys? 684 00:41:51.350 --> 00:41:55.880 And so, you know, that's a whole different conversation as to maybe why we didn't. 685 00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:59.810 Yeah, we never learned that. But what the reason I bring it up is because now it makes 686 00:41:59.810 --> 00:42:02.360 sense that that actually seems very plausible. 687 00:42:02.990 --> 00:42:07.730 Because one of the things that you said about this was a very organized to have these 688 00:42:07.730 --> 00:42:09.770 black units around the country. 689 00:42:09.770 --> 00:42:12.530 And what intrigued me was that they were all in the West. 690 00:42:12.740 --> 00:42:16.370 Like I learned, the first park rangers were Buffalo soldiers in the Sierra Nevada 691 00:42:16.370 --> 00:42:16.750 mountains. 692 00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:19.040 Yeah, pre-dating the National Park Service. 693 00:42:19.040 --> 00:42:21.050 But they, you know, we need somebody to manage the park. 694 00:42:21.050 --> 00:42:21.380 Yeah. 695 00:42:21.920 --> 00:42:25.610 Because after they had taken some of this land from the Indian tribes, to your point, 696 00:42:25.610 --> 00:42:27.230 they needed to just manage the land. 697 00:42:27.230 --> 00:42:29.630 Right? And so these guys are already there. 698 00:42:29.630 --> 00:42:32.000 They already knew the land, they knew how to deal with all that stuff. 699 00:42:32.000 --> 00:42:39.500 And so and so the Indian was kind of the main part lasted from 1867 to the 1890s. 700 00:42:39.830 --> 00:42:43.970 I learned at the last battle engagement of the Indian Wars. 701 00:42:43.970 --> 00:42:47.960 To put that in though realize they went on this late, I think it was called the Yuki 702 00:42:48.170 --> 00:42:50.750 Tribe and it was 1918. 703 00:42:50.750 --> 00:42:54.740 The Buffalo Soldiers again were used to engage the last Native American tribe. 704 00:42:54.740 --> 00:42:59.900 I went to war with the US government in 1918 and what it was and I'll finish up here 705 00:42:59.900 --> 00:43:01.790 because it wasn't just about the Buffalo Soldiers. 706 00:43:02.390 --> 00:43:06.740 Again, it's just not well educated about this period of American history because I 707 00:43:06.740 --> 00:43:10.490 thought, you know, because we kind of have that flyover history of, okay, you got the 708 00:43:10.490 --> 00:43:14.930 Civil War, 1861 to 1865, and then boom, you got World War One. 709 00:43:14.930 --> 00:43:17.990 You know, like you kind of skip over like 67 years and. 710 00:43:18.500 --> 00:43:20.060 Which is 1960s eventful. 711 00:43:20.060 --> 00:43:21.140 60 or 70 years. Yeah, that's. 712 00:43:21.140 --> 00:43:27.220 What I'm saying. So I'm I'm realizing here 1867 to 18 nineties, the Indian War. 713 00:43:27.230 --> 00:43:32.960 So you had 23 Medals of Honor granted to Buffalo Soldiers over that time, five Medals 714 00:43:32.960 --> 00:43:36.740 of Honor during the Spanish-American War of 1898. 715 00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:40.130 I didn't know this this amazing history. 716 00:43:40.130 --> 00:43:45.140 There was a war called the Johnson County War in Wyoming between small farmers and the 717 00:43:45.140 --> 00:43:46.250 large, wealthy farmers. 718 00:43:46.490 --> 00:43:49.520 And they sent a Buffalo soldiers up there to try and quell that. 719 00:43:49.520 --> 00:43:52.700 Well, there. There are a lot of those, though, if you detail the history of the 720 00:43:52.700 --> 00:43:57.140 West. But no, I mean that's one had is documented that the black that the Buffalo 721 00:43:57.140 --> 00:43:58.580 soldiers had to go go to. 722 00:43:58.580 --> 00:44:04.190 And I just want to make this point again, if you only want to learn American history about 723 00:44:04.190 --> 00:44:08.990 in a particular way or about particular a particular narrative or a particular group of 724 00:44:08.990 --> 00:44:11.060 people, then I guess so be it. 725 00:44:11.060 --> 00:44:17.330 But you are purposefully and very much so restricting your gaze or restricting your 726 00:44:17.330 --> 00:44:19.670 vision, Your vision. You're not having a full perspective. 727 00:44:19.670 --> 00:44:22.070 American history is very broad and there's a lot to learn. 728 00:44:22.070 --> 00:44:27.050 And that is why, again, when this stuff doesn't automatically or intuitively make it 729 00:44:27.050 --> 00:44:29.600 into the curriculum, then it's like, Well, hey, you got to make an extra effort to try 730 00:44:29.600 --> 00:44:32.690 to bring it in, because otherwise it's clearly a blind spot. 731 00:44:32.690 --> 00:44:34.160 It's clearly a spot that we're missing. 732 00:44:34.460 --> 00:44:39.830 And to the point we just talked about the the eventful the event, how eventful the the 733 00:44:39.830 --> 00:44:45.800 60 years or so or 50 years or so from the Civil War to the World War One, but is kind 734 00:44:45.800 --> 00:44:47.330 of fly over in terms of how we learn history. 735 00:44:47.630 --> 00:44:51.180 One of the most eventful aspects of that and we've talked about it we did a documentary on 736 00:44:51.180 --> 00:44:55.880 the reconstruction. But you know, during the reconstruction, the participation of blacks 737 00:44:55.880 --> 00:45:00.800 in the political system and how that was the first time really that America said, hey, 738 00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:02.780 we're going to actually have a true representative. 739 00:45:03.740 --> 00:45:07.490 You know, everybody gets to vote or, you know, when everybody is, they still we're 740 00:45:07.490 --> 00:45:09.710 excluding women. But, you know, all men get to vote. 741 00:45:09.710 --> 00:45:12.260 You know, it's not just a narrow sliver, so to speak. 742 00:45:12.260 --> 00:45:17.060 And, you know, representation around particularly in the South because of how, you 743 00:45:17.060 --> 00:45:20.510 know, you had some states where the blacks were a majority and the representation 744 00:45:20.510 --> 00:45:25.790 changed. And it was you had your your your first black senators, which we can go through 745 00:45:25.790 --> 00:45:28.520 some of those, you know, people in the House of Representatives. 746 00:45:28.520 --> 00:45:32.170 So national government, state governments, local governments all throughout their it's 747 00:45:32.210 --> 00:45:36.640 for this period, you know, and so we look at, for example, more recent times, you know, 748 00:45:36.650 --> 00:45:40.390 the seventies, the eighties, the nineties, the 2000s and so forth like, oh, you know, 749 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:44.140 all of this progress. Well, actually a lot of that stuff had been done and, you know, 750 00:45:44.150 --> 00:45:45.410 it's documented, had been done and everything. 751 00:45:45.860 --> 00:45:49.400 And you know, you can get into also how that got undone. 752 00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.820 But I think you can also just just know that it was there. 753 00:45:52.820 --> 00:45:56.960 And I mean, I'm gonna kick it to you because I want to know what about this kind of like 754 00:45:56.960 --> 00:45:58.430 what you find interesting, notable or whatever? 755 00:45:59.330 --> 00:46:04.040 Well, it's interesting. I mean, again, you learn all this stuff and I think this is just 756 00:46:04.040 --> 00:46:06.680 cool history that every American should embrace. 757 00:46:07.430 --> 00:46:11.900 This isn't about how you look as a person or what group you're part of. 758 00:46:12.410 --> 00:46:13.760 I just find about America. 759 00:46:13.760 --> 00:46:14.150 It's about. 760 00:46:14.520 --> 00:46:14.560 An. 761 00:46:14.580 --> 00:46:16.190 Interesting experiment. 762 00:46:16.220 --> 00:46:22.880 Yeah, because Hiram Revels, a gentleman from Mississippi, was the first black senator in 763 00:46:22.880 --> 00:46:24.080 the history of the United States. 764 00:46:24.080 --> 00:46:29.240 And then between 1870 and 1875, there were three black senators serving in the US 765 00:46:29.240 --> 00:46:35.090 Senate, and there were over 2000 elected black elected officials around the country, 766 00:46:35.090 --> 00:46:37.490 in state legislatures, so on and so forth. 767 00:46:37.520 --> 00:46:41.120 And so, you know, it's it's fascinating. 768 00:46:41.190 --> 00:46:50.210 Stating that. Between, let's say that period, 1870 to probably 1890 is maybe 1900. 769 00:46:50.210 --> 00:46:55.760 Let's just say at the state level, you had all these thousands of blacks participating 770 00:46:55.760 --> 00:47:02.180 as elected officials and you had black citizens that could claim representation 771 00:47:02.180 --> 00:47:04.220 right in the US government. 772 00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:06.020 And then. 773 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:14.140 By that early period of the 20th century, you had, you know, whether it be Wilmington, 774 00:47:14.140 --> 00:47:19.030 North Carolina, in 1898, all the way to the red summer of 1919. 775 00:47:19.030 --> 00:47:27.370 And that period you had a lot of domestic terrorism, which was the way that the country 776 00:47:27.370 --> 00:47:33.370 dealt with blacks gaining power and the democracy of America post civil war actually 777 00:47:33.370 --> 00:47:33.970 working. 778 00:47:34.180 --> 00:47:35.860 And I mean, it was undone. 779 00:47:35.890 --> 00:47:39.910 It didn't it didn't just fall apart, like and you really you date that to the 780 00:47:39.910 --> 00:47:41.650 compromise of 1877. 781 00:47:41.650 --> 00:47:42.400 And no. 782 00:47:42.490 --> 00:47:47.110 Agreement to remove union troops from the South because the people in the south weren't 783 00:47:47.110 --> 00:47:51.250 crazy about this the whole time, you know, And but there were union troops stationed in 784 00:47:51.250 --> 00:47:53.950 the South after the Civil War until 1877. 785 00:47:54.100 --> 00:47:57.010 And Hayes, in order to there was a contested election. 786 00:47:57.490 --> 00:48:01.240 And then the compromise was that that the South would throw their support behind Hayes 787 00:48:01.240 --> 00:48:03.370 if he removed or agreed to remove the troops. 788 00:48:03.730 --> 00:48:07.540 Another one of the great compromises in American history that dealt with how America 789 00:48:07.540 --> 00:48:11.210 was going to deal with black folks all the way back to the 3/5 compromise and, you know, 790 00:48:11.260 --> 00:48:16.060 and so forth. But the thing that's interesting to me about that, you had Hiram 791 00:48:16.060 --> 00:48:17.440 Revels, the first black senator. 792 00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:19.360 He was appointed, but it was it was 1870. 793 00:48:19.360 --> 00:48:24.400 You know, in terms of when that was it was when they were basically bringing back the 794 00:48:24.400 --> 00:48:26.350 Southern delegations. 795 00:48:26.710 --> 00:48:29.830 And so, like, there was no senator in Mississippi, basically during the Civil War 796 00:48:29.830 --> 00:48:31.870 because Mississippi wasn't there and so forth. 797 00:48:32.110 --> 00:48:33.160 But, you know. 798 00:48:33.160 --> 00:48:35.500 It's hold on for the audience. 799 00:48:35.530 --> 00:48:37.490 Mississippi was there. I know you didn't mean it that way. 800 00:48:37.510 --> 00:48:39.610 Mississippi was not from a government standpoint. 801 00:48:40.060 --> 00:48:41.180 I mean, it wasn't part of the union. 802 00:48:41.200 --> 00:48:43.030 Yeah, it was part of another country. 803 00:48:43.120 --> 00:48:48.400 But here's the thing. It's interesting, because as you say, that it it it is true, 804 00:48:48.400 --> 00:48:50.530 right? Like and that's why history is important. 805 00:48:51.040 --> 00:48:53.200 And it's important we learn about our country's history. 806 00:48:53.200 --> 00:48:54.910 Right. Think about what we're talking about. 807 00:48:55.580 --> 00:48:57.170 After the Civil War. 808 00:48:58.300 --> 00:49:02.000 The democracy was working and people were citizens there. 809 00:49:02.010 --> 00:49:03.400 There were, for example. 810 00:49:04.270 --> 00:49:07.420 Around half the population of the state of Louisiana was black. 811 00:49:08.340 --> 00:49:15.150 After the Civil War around the 1870s, there was 130,000 registered black voters in that 812 00:49:15.150 --> 00:49:20.460 state. And by 1910, that number had fallen to 510 people. 813 00:49:21.090 --> 00:49:26.200 And so what happens is and that's the part, unfortunately, that I think certain Americans 814 00:49:26.220 --> 00:49:30.210 don't want to talk about that history, because then the question begs to why what 815 00:49:30.210 --> 00:49:36.360 happened in our country that for, you know, from the early 1900s. 816 00:49:37.290 --> 00:49:45.030 Until after 1965, until it took legislation to allow people to participate in their own 817 00:49:45.030 --> 00:49:50.610 democracy. Again, was there was literally zero black representation in the US Congress 818 00:49:50.610 --> 00:49:55.090 or the US Senate until the late sixties or early seventies after the Civil Rights Act. 819 00:49:55.110 --> 00:50:01.830 And I think that's it's I want you to to go back a little bit on the 1877 compromise, 820 00:50:01.830 --> 00:50:04.110 because in there you see this. 821 00:50:04.110 --> 00:50:08.970 So the sowing of the seeds of the culture wars of today, this idea of the federal 822 00:50:08.970 --> 00:50:12.540 government, why did the South not like the federal government? 823 00:50:12.540 --> 00:50:17.700 Because the federal government actually came to the South post civil war and tried to 824 00:50:17.700 --> 00:50:19.510 create a democracy in the South? 825 00:50:19.530 --> 00:50:24.090 Well, no. I mean, it's not just that the federal government did that in the 1870s, 826 00:50:24.090 --> 00:50:25.770 1860s and 1870s. 827 00:50:26.250 --> 00:50:31.190 And then it also did that, remember in the 1950s, sixties and seventies as well with 828 00:50:31.230 --> 00:50:32.460 desegregation and so forth. 829 00:50:32.460 --> 00:50:37.380 And so the states rights thing, you know, it's not in the abstract that states rights 830 00:50:37.380 --> 00:50:40.110 is generally about I want the ability to discriminate against black people. 831 00:50:40.290 --> 00:50:42.000 I mean, that's that's what it's about. 832 00:50:42.420 --> 00:50:47.100 And so and that's what happened when the when when when the federal troops left and then 833 00:50:47.100 --> 00:50:53.580 the compromise of 1877, you know, right then basically you started to see the poll taxes, 834 00:50:53.580 --> 00:50:56.880 the grandfather clauses, all of these things put in place to make sure that black folks 835 00:50:56.880 --> 00:51:02.650 couldn't vote. And so you have Blanche Bruce, for example, he's the first African 836 00:51:02.700 --> 00:51:06.510 American to serve a full term because Hiram Revels only he served a vacant seat until 837 00:51:06.510 --> 00:51:11.250 there was an election. But Blanche Bruce, he served from 1875 to 1881. 838 00:51:11.250 --> 00:51:14.130 And you have somebody like that, you have representatives. 839 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:21.570 You had a democracy or a democratic system working in the United States. 840 00:51:21.570 --> 00:51:25.270 That was that. Everybody, you know, like, again, based on representation in that sense, 841 00:51:25.470 --> 00:51:29.550 because women still weren't allowed to vote but that people were participating in and 842 00:51:29.550 --> 00:51:31.290 that was working, there was nothing wrong with it. 843 00:51:31.290 --> 00:51:36.060 And so basically, in order for that then to get undone, it became a matter of violence. 844 00:51:36.060 --> 00:51:40.920 It came a matter of we can't have federal troops preventing us from showing up at the 845 00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:44.520 polls with guns to prevent people from voting or to enacting these laws and so 846 00:51:44.520 --> 00:51:48.330 forth. And so and, you know, you mentioned already one of the more notable ones when you 847 00:51:48.330 --> 00:51:52.170 had in Wilmington, North Carolina, you know, a government elected by the people that was 848 00:51:52.170 --> 00:51:56.070 overthrown by terrorism completely and like the government was overthrown and then they 849 00:51:56.070 --> 00:52:00.080 put another new government in that was a a supremacist white supremacist. 850 00:52:00.280 --> 00:52:01.380 So and that's what I'm saying. 851 00:52:01.860 --> 00:52:04.740 That would be unbelievable to a lot of Americans hearing that today. 852 00:52:04.770 --> 00:52:09.210 Seriously, like I think a lot of Americans say, I can't believe that that happened in my 853 00:52:09.210 --> 00:52:10.590 country. There was an elected local government. 854 00:52:10.830 --> 00:52:12.720 That happened more than once. But the thing that's crazy. 855 00:52:12.720 --> 00:52:16.530 About and I know I know it's happened more than once, I'm just saying that this is what 856 00:52:16.530 --> 00:52:18.390 happens when we don't teach history of our country. 857 00:52:18.930 --> 00:52:20.790 And well, somehow and that's but that. 858 00:52:20.790 --> 00:52:22.500 Even and maybe I should say this. 859 00:52:22.500 --> 00:52:24.540 I love the United States and I say that seriously. 860 00:52:25.170 --> 00:52:25.640 Well, but. 861 00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:30.060 I should be able to have this conversation without someone saying that I hate my 862 00:52:30.060 --> 00:52:31.950 country. Well, I love this country. 863 00:52:31.950 --> 00:52:35.580 Being able to acknowledge what's what happened in the past is something that I 864 00:52:35.580 --> 00:52:37.740 mean, maybe some people do have a hard time with that. 865 00:52:37.740 --> 00:52:41.220 You know, if it's not all roses and sunshine, you know, but being able to 866 00:52:41.220 --> 00:52:44.250 acknowledge the past is something that's important if you want to be able to adapt and 867 00:52:44.250 --> 00:52:48.000 grow. And so and maybe if you can acknowledge the past that can prevent you 868 00:52:48.000 --> 00:52:50.730 from being able to adapt and grow as as time moves on. 869 00:52:50.730 --> 00:52:55.380 But I mean, what you just what we just said about Wilmington, is it much different than 870 00:52:55.380 --> 00:52:56.790 the civil war itself? 871 00:52:57.390 --> 00:53:01.710 You know, it's like, okay, yeah, they elected that dude and we're going to take up 872 00:53:01.710 --> 00:53:07.140 arms against our the country that we were just in to try to take them out, you know? 873 00:53:07.140 --> 00:53:08.730 So it's not like it's not much different. 874 00:53:08.730 --> 00:53:16.050 It's the the violence that it come into blows basically over these issues is 875 00:53:16.050 --> 00:53:18.600 something that's very much a part of American history, you know. 876 00:53:18.600 --> 00:53:19.230 And so I. 877 00:53:19.230 --> 00:53:19.530 Know and. 878 00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:21.300 That's what. 879 00:53:21.300 --> 00:53:25.860 I was just going to say, that, number one, that's why once you read this kind of 880 00:53:25.860 --> 00:53:32.400 history, it actually to me, it it helps and gives a calming effect for some of the stuff 881 00:53:32.400 --> 00:53:36.750 I see today. Not calming because like, I think it's fine and it's okay, but more like 882 00:53:37.140 --> 00:53:41.880 it allows one to say, okay, this isn't the first time we've had people trying to carry 883 00:53:41.880 --> 00:53:47.850 out political violence or people trying to be aggressive and how they think elections 884 00:53:47.850 --> 00:53:50.070 should be playing out, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 885 00:53:50.070 --> 00:53:54.510 So this this goes back to saying, okay, we're a collection of human beings and this 886 00:53:54.510 --> 00:53:56.040 is democracy is messy. 887 00:53:56.040 --> 00:53:58.320 This is what it looks like in a certain way. 888 00:53:58.350 --> 00:54:06.390 The second thing is going back to this thing about the federal troops and and and how the 889 00:54:06.390 --> 00:54:12.060 country deals with black participation in the democracy and in the society. 890 00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:15.840 It's amazing that we're still having these discussions today. 891 00:54:16.110 --> 00:54:21.150 That's really what I'm what I'm what I'm getting at is it just shows you how close we 892 00:54:21.150 --> 00:54:22.260 still are. I mean, we still have. 893 00:54:22.260 --> 00:54:23.150 Well, but also to. 894 00:54:23.230 --> 00:54:27.150 The last three years, we had arguments about Confederate flags and statues. 895 00:54:27.270 --> 00:54:28.710 But you can look at that another way, though. 896 00:54:28.730 --> 00:54:30.270 Yeah, you can look at it and say it's amazing. 897 00:54:30.660 --> 00:54:34.260 But you can also look at that, that it's inevitable because of the resistance to 898 00:54:34.260 --> 00:54:36.600 learning about it. Yeah, if you resist. 899 00:54:36.660 --> 00:54:41.640 Learning about stuff like this, then of course you are going to be unable to grow and 900 00:54:41.640 --> 00:54:43.230 become it be be bigger. 901 00:54:43.250 --> 00:54:46.340 You can't learn the lessons that America has already learned. 902 00:54:46.350 --> 00:54:50.970 You have to go through the same fight again because you refuse to learn what happened. 903 00:54:50.970 --> 00:54:52.620 So then you can learn and grow from it. 904 00:54:52.620 --> 00:54:57.900 In terms of the lessons that our nation as a whole has already learned from and what 905 00:54:57.900 --> 00:55:02.270 doesn't work, what is antithetical to the spirit of our nation. 906 00:55:02.280 --> 00:55:05.910 We know all the answers, but you've got to learn about that stuff and learn how that 907 00:55:05.910 --> 00:55:09.450 stuff played out and be willing to grow in order to really take advantage of that. 908 00:55:09.450 --> 00:55:13.950 And so that's from the standpoint of the fight against the teaching of history. 909 00:55:13.950 --> 00:55:17.910 You know, that's the unfortunate piece, is that it basically it allows people to to make 910 00:55:17.910 --> 00:55:19.680 us have to relive all this stuff again. 911 00:55:19.680 --> 00:55:22.950 And I mean, this stuff is there's a lot of crazy stuff that can happen when you have to. 912 00:55:23.310 --> 00:55:24.630 There's a lot of crazy stuff that has happened. 913 00:55:25.050 --> 00:55:29.610 And so and also this stuff, not only is it a waste of time, waste of energy, and prevent 914 00:55:29.610 --> 00:55:36.300 the nation from reaching its true potential, but it also is something that is potentially 915 00:55:36.300 --> 00:55:40.560 could take us into darker times that the nation has experienced before and been able 916 00:55:40.560 --> 00:55:44.580 to come out of. And, you know, so is that the direction we want to go, you know, or do 917 00:55:44.580 --> 00:55:49.890 we want to sometimes learn things that may not make us comfortable, but that are a part 918 00:55:49.890 --> 00:55:55.500 of the experience, a part of the the platform which America today is built on? 919 00:55:55.890 --> 00:56:00.960 Yeah. And I think just to kind of know we want to wrap it up here, but it it intrigues 920 00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:08.580 me as as as I said earlier that that you know, when I said earlier in the show, I mean 921 00:56:08.580 --> 00:56:12.470 that. I grew up in the United States. 922 00:56:12.620 --> 00:56:13.820 You know, I'm American. 923 00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:20.330 And I because of our media and just how things were disseminated to me with watching 924 00:56:20.330 --> 00:56:25.100 John Wayne and Clint Eastwood and those guys to watch Westerns with my mom when I was a 925 00:56:25.100 --> 00:56:31.850 little kid. And I never would have thought that black people had all that participation 926 00:56:31.850 --> 00:56:35.060 in the Old West that we clearly have learned that they did. 927 00:56:35.060 --> 00:56:39.440 And when you go back to things like we're talking about the amount of elected officials 928 00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:44.510 back in the day, all that, I think just most Americans should want to like, feel robbed, 929 00:56:44.510 --> 00:56:47.090 that they don't have that knowledge. 930 00:56:47.090 --> 00:56:51.560 If someone listening to this was like me, or you can say, yeah, when I was sitting in my 931 00:56:51.560 --> 00:56:54.950 school, when I grew up in the seventies, eighties, whenever, you know, people probably 932 00:56:54.950 --> 00:56:58.820 older than us listening to that, I was never taught this stuff. 933 00:56:59.560 --> 00:57:03.610 That to me. We're all robbed of the great history of this country if we're not 934 00:57:03.610 --> 00:57:05.440 including everybody's conversation in it. 935 00:57:05.440 --> 00:57:11.710 And so this is just another moment in our country's history where this type of 936 00:57:11.710 --> 00:57:14.520 discussion and battle comes up. 937 00:57:14.530 --> 00:57:19.420 But the good news is, is that the freedom of speech is still embedded in the Constitution. 938 00:57:19.420 --> 00:57:23.740 And so the fact that we're talking about this means that that it won't be put to bed. 939 00:57:24.760 --> 00:57:26.740 Well, that's the hope and that's the hope. 940 00:57:26.740 --> 00:57:30.610 Why you want to make sure that it's brought up and that it's spoken about. 941 00:57:30.610 --> 00:57:34.750 And that's part of the reason why you have a Black History Month, because if you don't if 942 00:57:34.750 --> 00:57:36.550 not, you run the risk of it disappearing completely. 943 00:57:37.240 --> 00:57:41.950 And ultimately, you know, you and I look at stuff like this as part of America's 944 00:57:41.950 --> 00:57:47.350 strength, part of America's strength to be able to grow, to be able to incorporate so 945 00:57:47.350 --> 00:57:50.250 many different types of people, so many different cultures and so forth. 946 00:57:50.260 --> 00:57:54.490 Like there are some people and I honestly this is just this is just the nature of the 947 00:57:54.490 --> 00:57:55.750 world to some degree. 948 00:57:55.750 --> 00:57:57.850 But there are some people that don't look at that as America's strength. 949 00:57:57.850 --> 00:58:03.100 If you look at America's strength as some as it being some type of uniformity, then you 950 00:58:03.100 --> 00:58:08.170 wouldn't look at this stuff as being part of what makes America exceptional because it can 951 00:58:08.170 --> 00:58:09.850 bring all these together. You're America. 952 00:58:09.850 --> 00:58:13.510 You would look at America as being exceptional just because of a certain group 953 00:58:13.510 --> 00:58:18.250 of people being involved, which is kind of self defeating because there's all different 954 00:58:18.250 --> 00:58:19.420 types of people all over the world. 955 00:58:19.450 --> 00:58:23.110 You know, America doesn't have the only thing America has that most places don't have 956 00:58:23.140 --> 00:58:28.540 is diversity, you know, And to the extent that it does, because America set up shop on 957 00:58:28.540 --> 00:58:34.750 an ideal and on the kind of mindset that, hey, if you're willing to work, then this is 958 00:58:34.750 --> 00:58:37.480 the place for you. And so you get the people from all over to come like that. 959 00:58:37.480 --> 00:58:41.120 And so are you. Are you saying that our imperfections are what make us great? 960 00:58:41.140 --> 00:58:44.170 I'm saying our ability to to persevere. 961 00:58:44.170 --> 00:58:45.220 Through them can be great. 962 00:58:45.220 --> 00:58:48.190 Again is what? Yeah, It's what makes us It makes us great. 963 00:58:48.430 --> 00:58:49.750 Make America great again. 964 00:58:49.750 --> 00:58:50.500 Exactly. 965 00:58:51.550 --> 00:58:55.210 Does that mean we just got to repeat all these struggles that I'm not sure which one 966 00:58:55.210 --> 00:58:55.330 is. 967 00:58:55.340 --> 00:58:59.500 And hopefully we can learn from them and stand on the shoulders of our ancestors. 968 00:58:59.500 --> 00:59:00.660 That'd be the good, you know. 969 00:59:00.670 --> 00:59:03.130 And so ultimately, though, that's not a given. 970 00:59:03.430 --> 00:59:04.420 We have to be willing to learn. 971 00:59:04.430 --> 00:59:05.480 I don't know. I just go on. 972 00:59:05.500 --> 00:59:09.880 I just want to go touch a buffalo and make sure it it's hair feels like my that's that's 973 00:59:09.880 --> 00:59:11.020 what I'm curious about. 974 00:59:11.020 --> 00:59:12.340 I got to go out to the Great Plains. 975 00:59:12.340 --> 00:59:13.390 See what the Native Americans. 976 00:59:13.390 --> 00:59:14.410 Are talking about. I'll see. 977 00:59:14.560 --> 00:59:15.400 I'll see you later. 978 00:59:16.210 --> 00:59:18.940 Sounds good, man. Well, I think we close it up from here. 979 00:59:19.240 --> 00:59:21.640 We appreciate I appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call. 980 00:59:21.640 --> 00:59:25.880 Like, I see you subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what you think. 981 00:59:25.900 --> 00:59:26.980 Send it to a friend. 982 00:59:27.010 --> 00:59:28.510 Until next time. I'm James Keys. 983 00:59:30.100 --> 00:59:31.600 I'm a Buffalo soldier. 984 00:59:31.630 --> 00:59:33.730 All right, But I'm not a dreadlock Rasta. 985 00:59:36.400 --> 00:59:37.600 Hey, we'll talk to you next time.