Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
Welcome to the Call Like I See it podcast. I'm James Keys, that's Tunde Oglana. And for our call out this week, we're taking a look at the trans debate, which has picked up again.
It's particularly trans athletes participating in women's sports, which has picked up again lately. And you know, we really seem to be going in circles with this thing. You know, like what we've seen with the, the Algerian boxer Khalifa and her having issues in terms of professional boxing. We've seen in the California high school athletes, we've seen a trans athlete winning first place in several women's events. And you know, like my question to you, Tunde, is this. Why do you think our society has such a hard time dealing with this issue? Like, it seems like we're at the same place with this issue as we were a year ago, two years ago, three years ago. Like, we just seem to be in the same place and people just going in circles.
[00:00:53] Speaker B: That's a great question, man. I think there's, I'll say, I'll split this into two. Like if we had, you know, two different forks in a road, I think one is a genuine, you know, like a genuine hesitation for something that is new and something that seems foreign to most of us in traditional society, which is, you know, questioning gender, people wanting to be a different gender, whether that's something that is, you know, a real biological issue or maybe a mental health or psychological concern.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: All kind of the separating gender biology from gender identity is correct.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: Yeah, all that stuff is, is a very murky conversation. And I'm gonna be honest, like I'm an open minded person, but I'm intimidated by the trans conversation because I'm a 47 year old guy and is new to me. Unlike, let's say the homosexual conversation, which my whole life I've known that gay people have been part of the equation of society. So that's not new to me, even though I'm a heterosexual guy. So transgender the topic to me.
And that's why I'm trying to be very eloquent as I say this. I'm not trying to make fun or be derogatory to trans people. I'm just being honest that it's something foreign to me. So that would be one fork of the road that I think the genuine kind of just, hey, this is new and this kind of seems a little bit funny and I don't really know what to think of it, blah, blah, blah that most people have. I think there's the other fork of the road, which is this has been a great tool politically to divide people on a partisan level. And so I think there's a lot of that that continues to go on as a way to distract a certain part of the public from information that otherwise might be negatively received about, you know, what their side of the culture or political discussion in our country is doing. So I think the trans issue has been a great way to throw maybe some of those people off the scent of what's going on. Otherwise, in areas said differently, it's like.
[00:03:03] Speaker A: From that standpoint, what you're saying is that there's some people who wouldn't want. Who don't want to solve the problem. Like, this is a very, like, helpful thing for them to have out there. Unresolved.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: Yes. And to not like the immigration debate was until this year, you know, it was very convenient for a lot of people not to solve it.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, so, like. So. But I mean, asking the question on why we're still in the same spot, though, I mean, I think I would break down what you were just saying is, like, there are some people who can't decide who we should be trying to defend. Who should we be trying?
Who's the person who is under threat here? Is it the women? Because we're talking specifically about women. Trans athletes in women's sports specifically. We're not talking about bathroom use. We're not talking about somebody's right to live the life they want to live. Those issues, I think we have at least the right as far as living the life you want to live. I think there is a pretty solid consensus on that, that I don't see a bunch of people banging the drum publicly, that people shouldn't be able to live the life they want to live. Where it comes into is when you live that life and how that bumps up against other people and their ability to live their life, which is always kind of the conflict of freedom. And so from what I'm hearing from you is like, okay, well, some people can't decide who they should be defending. Who. Who is at threat here. Is it the trans athlete that's at threat, or is it the women who want to compete in women's sports? And then the other, you know, that's one. So that's. That'd be one that you're.
[00:04:20] Speaker B: You're.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: You're. You're kind of genuine thing. And then there's the other one, which is there's other people that don't want the issue solved. It's like, hey, yeah, this is working out for us. Let's keep this allows us to infinitely distract people, anger people, you know, and stuff like that. All of which things we can use to our benefit politically. So. And I think you summed it up very well in that way, you know, like those two reasons.
So for me, though, when I look at it, though, I think that the first issue actually is the bigger problem. Because with every issue, you know, like you pointed out with immigration, there are people who draw strength from people being divided and people being mad at each other. So that's. With every issue that's out there. Some issues, though, are able to.
The people who want to help society move to a better place are able to create a consensus. Like, I think gay marriage happened like that. Like, even though there are plenty of people that made a lot of mileage on that politically for such a long time, eventually a consensus did form and we were able to kind of not have it be a hot button issue whether some people still might not like it, some people don't care, whatever, but it's a consensus. Like, people aren't hot about it at all times. Like, we are about, like we seem to be with the transition coming up every time with the women's sports. And so I think the bigger issue we have here is that people, there's. There seems to be a fundamental disagreement on who is the who which party needs help here. You know, like, because some people look at this and they're saying the women need help here. That we, we created women's sports not because we were looking at trans people and say, hey, let's kick them out. We created women's sports because that gives women an opportunity to compete. Whereas if we just had one mixed gender or one mix, excuse me, all gender sports, then after puberty hits, the women wouldn't be able to compete with the men. Before puberty hits, the women do compete with the men, and that's fine, like with the little kids and so forth. So we create, we had a specific need in society and we created this division that or the women's sports stuff specifically for that. And so when you add trans people who are biological men into that, do you just undermine that whole thing? So that's. Some people that are looking like, hey, we got to defend the whole idea of women's sports, which was created for a specific reason that had nothing to do with trans people. And other people were saying, oh, trans people, you know, like they have, they have a really hard lot in life, you know, like they're, they're getting picked on, you know, their rates of, you know, like, depression and things like that are super high because of the way society shuns them. We should help them normalize in this way, you know, and so this, this will help them normalize. And if it hurts the women, tough for the women. And for me, where I come, I come down on the former, though. I mean, because I'm looking like women have been discriminated against and treated poorly in societies, particularly because patriarchal societies for much longer than trans people have been, you know, like, so I'm. I'm. I have a daughter, I have a wife, I have a mom. I'm looking at this like, well, hold up. Let's not just say screw it to the women, you know, like where we have this thing set up and we're like, okay, now, now men can get in, or biological men, because the point of the reason why we keep the men out is because of the biology. It's not because of the identity. So that's. To me, that's it. There is a way to have compassion on this and come down on either side. And I think that's the biggest issue that we have right now is that the compassion side is not aligned together, you know, because I can understand why somebody would have the opposite opinion as me and be coming from a place of compassion.
[00:07:30] Speaker B: Yeah, it's.
It's interesting, man, because as you're talking at all, I was thinking about things like integration. Right. I mean, that's. That's something that. A consensus had to be built.
[00:07:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:40] Speaker B: And that was something that.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: And it was very political beneficial for there not to be a consensus for a long time.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: I mean, we have history of politicians like Strom Thurman, George Wallace, you know, that. That really benefited from being anti integrationist. And also think about it, James. What, what, what did the. For some people, maybe not you and I, you know, they. They think blacks are dirty. They think it's gross to. For people to.
[00:08:05] Speaker A: Interracial marriage is another interracial marriage that got dealt with at the Supreme Court. But I mean, like, yes, there are a lot of examples, right?
[00:08:11] Speaker B: And they think that people would think that interracial relationships were like animals, you know, mating with each other. And so, and so that's what I mean when I say the term gross. It's that. And going back to the book Sapiens that we did a show on, disgust is something that is real in the human emotional experience.
[00:08:29] Speaker A: And the right mind, remember, the righteous mind, spent a lot of time on that too.
[00:08:32] Speaker B: And the reason is, you know, it's.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Involuntary almost in terms of how people can be, can really be turned against something if you can activate disgust in them.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: Yes. And the word involuntary is perfect because it's an evolutionary trait. And that's why, because they said that the, the need like to be disgusted was important because it turned a human off from eating something that could be rancid or that could be poisonous or something like that. So there's something deep about when a human being becomes disgusted about something. And that's. Why do you think that authoritarian leaders, let's say the last hundred years, you know, a lot of their speeches have been recorded. What are they called? People that are on the marginal parts of society? Vermin scum.
[00:09:18] Speaker A: They're trying to act like an invasion.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Right. That they're invading like insects. And it gives us all these feelings of like a bunch of cockroaches coming into there. And that's, that's a feeling we can all viscerally feel disgusted by, you know, and so.
[00:09:30] Speaker A: And that's the intent of it. The intent of it is to make disgust so that you can then get the people to not pay attention to any, to not ask questions, to just get on board with whatever we're doing even.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: Because my thing is cockroaches. So even though I hear myself say it right, like think about it, if I saw an invading horde of cockroaches coming to my house, it'll be very difficult, James, for you to try and stop me and have an intellectual conversation.
[00:09:52] Speaker A: Yeah. Don't start talking to me about habeas corpus. Yeah, exactly.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Or quid pro quo, you know, like all this fancy stuff like. Hold on, James, what do you mean, James? That they're good for the ecosystem and that I shouldn't kill them and that all this stuff like get these guys out of my house. That's what I say. Right. And so when you, when you gin people up and you make them feel that this is just not these invading and all this. I think that the trans topic becomes another one when you throw. It's another log on the fire of disgust and of change that people don't like. And I want to be very clear, is trying to be a fair minded guy. I'm not trying to call a trans person disgusting. I'm just trying to say that it just like interracial marriage. Back in the 60s when that topic was hot, a lot of people felt that a black person and a white person getting together was disgusting.
[00:10:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:10:38] Speaker B: That it was just gross. And it was like, it'll be like Bestiality. And so this is part of it is cultural. Right. Like, back then, that was what the culture was. The culture is.
[00:10:47] Speaker A: I appreciate you making that point because, yeah, we're not talking about our own personal feelings and sort of societal. The way these things play. Because the question is, how come as a society we can't get to any kind of, you know, consensus here or like. And then my next question actually for you is going to be down that line, but just to kind of react to what you said. The. I think that you're onto something with that, and I think that we saw that more so play out in with the bathroom stuff. Because a lot of the bathroom stuff was just like, well, why are people care about this so much? And the bathroom is a place where people. There's a certain amount of, what you want, privacy and things like that.
[00:11:22] Speaker B: And also the kids, like, yeah, yeah.
[00:11:24] Speaker A: The way they talk about, like, a.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Man would walk into your daughter's bathroom.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: Exactly. So you could activate fear, you could activate disgust really easily with that. But with the sports thing, I don't like. There's the general ideal. Yeah, I don't like, but there's the sports thing. There's also these competing things about fairness and so forth. Again, because where, like, again, the, the, for me, the real. The place that I can't get around, you know, I'm a logical thinker with a lot of these things. Like, I, of course, I'm subjected to emotion, all that stuff, but with the sports thing, I look at that very differently as the bathroom in the. And then just the general stuff. Because on the other hand, on those hands, I'm like, well, hey, we need to be more accommodating for people. But in the sports thing, the thing I can't get past is the idea that women's sports were created specifically to remove the women from competition with the men. Like, that's, that's the whole point, you know, like, it wasn't about the women's gender identity and making them more comfortable around, you know, like, while they're. While they're, you know, banging on, banging against each other in basketball, boxing each other out. That wasn't about their identity. That was so that you didn't have some big dude trying to box out some, you know, some woman. Even if she's big, she's not as big as him, most likely. So that, to me, that purpose of it, like, what's the purpose of women's sports if it's, if it's not that? Like, we had to come up with a different purpose for women's sports. If it's gonna be about gender identity, then, I mean, then you get into the whole thing of, okay, well, our age ranges in sports. Are those going to be subject to, you know, identity as well? You know, like, okay, why I may be, you know, 40 something, but I feel, you know, like my biological clock says I'm 27.
[00:12:52] Speaker B: You know, I feel like I'm in middle school.
I should be able to play basketball. I should go play basketball against middle school kids.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: So how. So my point is, is that eligibility for sports, Sports is really not about your identity. Hasn't been traditionally. And so it's a pretty big concession. People are asking and I just haven't seen the justification for that. Like, to me, the. If, if you want to create a. If you're saying it's not binary, we need to create. We need to change the, the fact that we have a binary system. You know, like, we need a third. A third lane.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, I think that's why this is. This, this topic of transgender is just complicated, you know, just all around. Because I think part of it is a technological conversation because up until the last 20 years, we didn't have the medical technology to even pretend like this was possible. Right. Like, and I don't mean to be vulgar or be some sounding like I'm flipping here, but when, when I was a kid, right, we called people cross dressers or transvestites, you know, men that wanted to, let's say, just dress up like women.
Because the science, medical technology and science wasn't there for a man to actually get surgery in a certain.
To remove his.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: This isn't about how they live in that. That was people just living their life. And that existed then. This is about. I want to compete with other people.
[00:14:07] Speaker B: Yeah. My point is saying is that. But a man back then wouldn't have shown up to a woman's sport as a man. That's what I mean. But it's. Now we have the ability for a man to have his penis cut off, to have his testosterone suppressed, to give him estrogen, to give him a vagina so that he can show up somewhere and say, I'm a woman now. That's just new. Like, they just couldn't do that before. Because you're right.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And with additional possibility often comes additional challenges.
[00:14:32] Speaker B: You know, that's what I'm saying.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Something becomes an option. It's like, how do you deal with this option?
[00:14:36] Speaker B: Correct. I want to ask new to humanity.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: So I want to. I Would I want to ask as we, you know, like the final part of this, you know, like, do you think that this is something.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: This isn't a four hour conversation.
[00:14:50] Speaker A: Do you think this is something that a consensus is possible? And I know this is forward thinking and possible to know, forward looking, possible to know like something that we could form a consensus around. Something like integration, you know, like where there can be a societal consensus about it. People might not be happy about it, people might resent it a little bit. Some people, you know, like. But you know, like generally speaking, you know, you don't have people banging the drum for. People don't find it politically beneficial, at least not yet. I mean, hey, where we go in the next few years, we don't know saying that we got to segregate the races, you know, like that's not something that people are politically out there saying. This is my thing, more or less.
And that's in 2025. Yeah, we'll see.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: I'll let me caveat that because this.
[00:15:28] Speaker A: Thing'S going to exist for a while, at least right now we don't see.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: That people have websites because that's too.
[00:15:35] Speaker A: Or do you people say anything on websites, you know, people. But. Or do you see this as something that's more like abortion, which is more. Which has lined up as more of a perpetual fight where there hasn't been any kind of consensus that like we've lived through a swing back of the pendulum to the other side right now. Like recently there was a pendulum swing in the 70s and then we've lived through a second pendulum swing going back. And so that does shape up. Like there is not gonna be some consensus where people start saying, hey, you know what, this is just what we're cool with. And that's another one of those issues where power can be derived from the division. But in that one there's just more to it and it does not seem like a consensus can form. So you see this as more of kind of the former, where we probably will ultimately get to something or the latter, where we won't.
[00:16:24] Speaker B: So those who can't see us, that are only listening won't see that. I'm sipping on my cup of coffee on purpose very fast because I'm trying to get it half empty because I'm going to be the glass half empty guy for James today. That's. That's what we're going to be. I'm going to be the latter, not the former.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: To me this topic will be more like abortion than integration because and it's a great point you make because I agree with you. There was a consensus on abortion. And in 1973, the Supreme Court made a ruling, a case of Roe vs Wade.
[00:16:57] Speaker A: It seems like it wasn't a consensus. And when something's not a consensus, basically, it's like whoever's in power, if they have enough power, they're gonna flip it back. Like we don't have. Again, as of 2025, we don't have the Supreme Court looking to overrule board. The.
The Board of Education. Like, that's our Brown. Excuse me, Brown v. Board of Education. We don't have that, like, push coming, but we do have. We have pushed some. The issues that are still swinging back and forth depending on who's in power versus the issues that, like slavery, you know, seems to be one where it's kind of like, okay, we're kind of here, you know, at least outright slavery. I mean, again, you know, people do the stuff with the prison systems and all that, but, like, outright slavery, just, hey, you're going to be born, and because of the way you're born, you're going to be a slave for life. Like, we've moved to a consensus. It appears that that's not what we do. And so. But that's not depending on who's in power. So it's not a consensus. In hindsight, at least, it looked like a consensus. If you would ask us, in 1999, it looked like it was consensus, but now it's clearly it wasn't.
[00:17:55] Speaker B: Well, I would say just sticking with abortion as a consensus.
I wouldn't say that now the consensus is no one thinks abortion should be legal or anything.
[00:18:05] Speaker A: I just think that that's my point. It's a. Whoever's in power is just going to back one way or the other.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I.
[00:18:10] Speaker A: The.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: What's happened is the public, you know, the critical mass, the public has just kind of become apathetic, maybe even nihilistic. So as these forces change in power and these ideas begin to shift, most people kind of, you know, we're like all rudderless ships in the seas just getting bounced around. And then you have loud voices on the fringes that are either for or against something. And I think that goes with. Going back to now, the sports and the, you know, the topic at hand with the transgender. I think that goes back to your question. It's a very good question of kind of who's. Who's being protected. Because you're right, there's a group here who's Saying you got to protect the trans people and their ability to participate and it's only fair.
And then, and then like you were saying, you got, people are saying, well, I got a daughter in sports, or I got, you know, this and that and that, or I'm a girl that's playing sports. And I, I don't think it's fair that somebody who may have the chromosomes and has already gone through puberty as a male or something like that gets to compete with me because my body now, from a muscle tissue development and all that is not the same as a man. And or at least from a level.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: I don't even think that fair is the right word. It's like not consistent with the point of women's sports. Like, the point of women's sports was one particular thing. You know, like this was not something that was like, oh, you know, let's, let's keep, like when, you know, like you have things like, you know, the segregation in the sports segregation, it was like, okay, yeah, we're going to make these rules to, for, because we want to keep them out. Like, that wasn't why women's sports was created. Women's sports was created, like, so it's inconsistent with what it was created for. And so that's where I'm just like, well, how do we reconcile that? Like that need existed then?
[00:19:44] Speaker B: Does that.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Are you saying that need doesn't exist now?
[00:19:47] Speaker B: You know, sorry, Reconciliation, James, is, is, yes, that's the political and the societal one. Which is to your point. I mean, this is the argument, right? Is, Is delineating allowing an adult over 18 in the United States to have the freedom to do what they wish with their body. That's. Most Americans would say we are okay with that. You get tattoos, you want to smoke cigarettes, you want to drink, you know, whiskey and kill your insides. That's on you. Now, under 18, we've made laws as a country to say, you know, kids can't do long.
Kids aren't allowed to do things on their own that could have long term side effects, like get tattoos or, you know, even driving a car at a certain age. Yeah. Like we don't let 8 year old kids drive cars. You know, like, we do have limits for certain things. So I do think, and you and I have discussed this on air and in private, you know, this is where let's say the side, the fringe that wants to support trans. And I want to hear, I am saying the fringe of the people that are supporting, not maybe the mainstream support.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: And again, but you're talking about trans in sports.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm just saying now I'm talking a bit in general, which is the idea of hormone therapy and doing all that on children, under children.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: Okay. So that's another specific issue that's.
[00:21:01] Speaker B: But I'm just giving an example right.
When in other parts of our societal life, like vaccines or like other pharmaceutical drugs, we generally believe that maybe these companies should be doing tests on animals and primates for a generation or two to see how it works out. The trans issue is the only one that I've ever seen where you're really doing something that could have a long term effect to a human being. Suppressing their hormones as they're naturally developing and giving them the hormones of the other sex. We don't know what that looks like when somebody's 60, 70 years old when they had that done at 13. And so just.
[00:21:37] Speaker A: But the argument on that though is also that. And you're doing. So you're saying that hey, like usually parental consent is required for that type of stuff.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: And so that's a whole nother.
[00:21:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: Like so yeah. That some states don't require it. So but as we're going a little.
[00:21:49] Speaker A: Further out from where we're talking and.
[00:21:50] Speaker B: That'S why I'll just finish my thought because I know you want to. Want to keep moving is that's what I'm saying. The fringe side of the supporters of that don't. They haven't recognized, let's say that that topic is the one that most Americans do have an issue with that part of the topic. When you're an adult, do what you want. That's America. But when you're a kid and I think the sports stuff getting back to the sports, we're dealing with this all when we're talking about kids sports. And that's why it becomes a political football that can divide the public because all of us care about our kids. And if we have daughters like you have a daughter who's in basketball right now, that's a question like, okay, well when she's 16. Well if there's a kid now, a boy who had a growth spurt and he's now that I was 6 foot 4 when I was 16 and what if I decided at that age, at that height, beginning to develop the way I was, that I now want to be a girl, is that fair that.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: I don't even think the height is the issue, man. Because they're six foot four girls. Like the issue is like things like muscle density, like physiological things that are different that, that like men are differently built, you know, like on average and then across the board and then if you go up the higher end. So I mean, I think that like the height is one thing. Like if you play against somebody taller than you, fine. But the, it's not the same. And that's again, that's why we created these women's sports. And the issue on the hormone therapy, like, that's one of the issues that I, I didn't want to go into that. But just like some of the proposals, again, trying to. People trying to be, you know, have compassion here. We're like, oh, well, you got to start the therapies then if you want to compete with women, you got to start the therapies before puberty. Because that's when these, that's when the distinguishing really happens. And it's like, well, but that does raise a whole nother issue like that you're really, you know, you're really test monkey in that, you know, like to where we don't know, like what if that causes cancer, you know, for everybody when they, when they hit 30, they just die from cancer. Now, I'm not one to say you can't make mistakes, but in that situation it's just, I'm looking at parental consent. Like if your parents say, yeah, you can be the test monkey, then, you know, I'm not going to be the one that says you can't. But the only other thing I'll say, and then I'll close this up to your point about adults, the like, even when you're an adult though, and this would go to the sports thing and like the Algerian boxer and so forth, you can do what you want to the extent that it doesn't impede substantial on somebody else's rights. So you're allowed to drink whiskey.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: You're allowed to drive cars. Yes. But you can't really do both because then you are infringing, impinging on other people's ability to enjoy their freedom. You know, I'm saying, so there is some limit. And I don't know what the limit is necessarily, but whenever we have this conversation again, I just go back, I need to understand what's the purpose of women's sports? Is it about. It was about biology. If you're going to say it's about identity now you need to like, there needs to be more to that, you know, and again, if it's not binary, then let's not make it binary. We have a binary system. If it's not a binary gender thing, then we need to create some other lane. You know, it's kind of my thought, and I don't think it has to be complicated if you go to the purpose of things, you know, and again, unless we're saying it was an illegitimate purpose to create women's sports, like that was illegitimate all along, we never should have done it then. Unless that purpose is no longer needed anymore, then we should try to maintain that. And to me, I don't think that's being unfair or lacking compassion because, hey, how can we accommodate more people? But I don't know that just jamming them into what we have now is the way we accommodate them, so.
[00:25:00] Speaker B: Well, speak for yourself. Until this is solved, I'm gonna go try out for the WNBA.
47 year old at 6 foot 4, I might be able to still, you know, compete a bit, throw some elbows.
[00:25:11] Speaker A: Play D1 college basketball. You got something if you need. I don't know if your knees agree with you.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: Well, I'll be a great rebounder because I, you know, do like Barkley, you know, move my butt around. But yeah, I think we can wrap it up when I'm talking about playing for the W. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:25:26] Speaker A: I think that that's the signal that we lost the plot.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: It won't be a four hour talk.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: But no, I think we can wrap this from there. So we appreciate everybody for joining us on this call out again, I'm James Keys.
[00:25:37] Speaker B: I am tuned out.
[00:25:38] Speaker A: All right, subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what you think, send it to a friend, and we'll talk to you soon.
