Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hello, welcome to Call It Like I See it, presented by Disruption Now, I'm
[00:00:19] Speaker B: James Keys, and in this episode of Call It Like I See it, we're going to continue our Stream between the Lines series and discuss Henry Louis Gates Jr. S 2019 documentary entitled Reconstruction America
[00:00:32] Speaker A: after the Civil War.
[00:00:33] Speaker B: This four part series originally aired on PBS and delved into what seems to be a substantially overlooked time in American history when our country, while physically rebuilding following years of war, also made efforts to create a new social order which aligned more closely to the country's founding truth that all men are created equal and which actually offered liberty and justice for all.
The series showed how those efforts initially paid off to, for the first time, allow the American government to be a true republic and to give African Americans, as W.E.B. du Bois termed it, a brief moment in the sun.
The documentary also showed how those efforts were undermined, violently resistant, and ultimately turned back by the former insurrectionists and their sympathizers, who instead were able to implement and propagate the Jim Crow caste system that came to dominate the organization early and mid 20th century and still influences our society today.
Joining me today is a man who is trying to find a way to bring some understanding here today, Tunde. Ogunlana Tunde. Are you ready to tell us what's going on?
[00:01:46] Speaker C: Always. Always.
[00:01:47] Speaker A: All right. All right.
Also joining me today is a friend of the program, our very own American
[00:01:54] Speaker B: history major, and a man who is willing to try to save the world that's destined to die, Rick Elsley.
[00:02:02] Speaker A: Rick, are you ready to save the children?
[00:02:05] Speaker D: That's it. Always. I just can't stop laughing. I love the intros.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: It's fun. All right, cool.
[00:02:11] Speaker D: Thanks, man.
[00:02:12] Speaker A: All right, now we're recording this on February 15, 2021, and just to kind
[00:02:17] Speaker B: of lay the groundwork, since this part of history is one that's often skipped over, broadly speaking, when we speak of Reconstruction, we're speaking of the period of time following the Civil War and up until Rutherford B. Hayes assumed the presidency. So essentially, 1865 to 1877.
The documentary series covered a lot of what went on during this period, including the vibrant multiracial democracy that sprouted and the efforts to bring equality under the law to all Americans. And then it covered the period afterwards when the former Confederate insurrectionists and their sympathizers were able to unwind much of what was done during Reconstruction and impose, often using violence and terrorism, the oppressive white supremacist social order that we generally refer to as Jim Crow.
So Tunde, looking at the first Parts of the documentary, the parts detailing the Reconstruction era.
[00:03:10] Speaker A: What stood out most to you?
[00:03:12] Speaker C: Wow.
I would say just the whole period. Like you said, the 12 year period, 1865 to 1877, stood out as a period that I never really learned about. I'd say that's what stood out to me.
Why has this great part of American history, I guess, been withheld from us American students over generations? Right. Meaning just, you know, I just felt I really learned a lot in delving into this topic. To be honest with you guys, I thought I knew it all. Not in an arrogant way, but I thought I knew a lot about American history.
And my ignorance over just this 12 year period stuck out to me. And what I found interesting, which I know we'll get into in the show today, is how much unfinished business our country from a cultural and emotional standpoint still has from this period of our history.
So I think that, to me, I'd say that's kind of the whole feeling I got from this whole experience of even just researching and come to the table today for this discussion was how much we don't know as a nation about this period and how much we are still influenced by this period without even knowing it.
[00:04:23] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely. It's a hole in our gap like this just, you know, you know the word, you know, people know about it but don't know, you know, what went ha. What went on with it. Rick, what about you, man? What stood out most to you?
[00:04:35] Speaker D: Well, I agree with Tunde because when we talked about doing this show and watching the series, I realized that, you know, as a history major and someone who had some interest in this and has interest in this, there's a big gap in my knowledge. We know about the Civil War, we know about the Depression, we know about the 20th century Civil rights struggles. This is a very important time. And I think watching that series and thinking about it, you realize that this was an opportunity and there was hope and it was missed.
And why was that?
Why was it not more successful?
And so as the documentary, as I learned more in the documentary, you see certain building blocks to why, and I think we'll talk about that today. But it's just when I look at it, it's that big missed opportunity, those 12 years.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Yeah, well, you know what's interesting that leads perfectly into my biggest takeaway is it's actually more a reflection on us and us being just modern people, us this generation, or probably all generations. It's how reductive we are with these things. Like we look back, when we learn about history and we see these seminal events and things that happen, and we assume that once something happened, that everybody kind of got on board. And so the Civil War was won by the Union, and so the south said, oh, okay, we'll just get on board now with how everything's gonna go.
But this shows, like, after the Civil War, that's not what happened. You know, like, the insurrectionists remained opposed to equality and opposed to democracy.
And this was a significant number of people. They didn't change their stripes, so to speak, just because they surrendered in the war.
And in the same way, we have to remember that just because we have elections nowadays or because the Constitution requires equity under the law, equality under the law, and the right to vote for all, there still remains now Americans that aren't for that, that oppose those things, even though.
And from a documented standpoint, what our laws say, our rules say, it says that our country's in favor of those things, but those aren't settled questions to 100% of the people, basically. And this, I think, really brings that out.
[00:06:49] Speaker D: Well, the issue is, what was the concept of reconstruction?
The word reconstruction means reconstitute.
So the ideas that were in place to bring this country more unified, I mean, there was some hope. The Civil Rights act of 1866, the Civil Rights act of 1875.
[00:07:08] Speaker A: But that's what I'm saying. That's the example. That's the example of the reductiveness. You look back at that and say there was hope. There was only hope on the people who you're talking about, though. There were people, live people. You say, why didn't this work? Because people were resisting it. Because the people who didn't have hope were like, never. No way. We're never doing this stuff. And they took steps to make sure that it didn't stick.
[00:07:28] Speaker C: Well, I think. Let me jump in real quick, because I think, Rick, that's. To your point from earlier about a missed opportunity. I captured that, and I think that's what I wanted to also interject, too, is the three of us look at it as a mixed opportunity.
[00:07:42] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:07:43] Speaker C: We would interpret, let's say, the Founding Fathers as men that said the Constitution and the setup of our system is to debate ideas and to elevate us above the basic levels of human nature that usually delve into conflict.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Well, so, yeah, Jefferson Davis wouldn't, you know. And so that's when you say we look at it as a missed opportunity. That's kind of. My point is that we tend to look Back, we being the three of us and people of like minded and look back and look at it from one perspective and saying, oh man, things would be better the way we think things should be, or the way we look at what the founding fathers wrote or whatever and say things would be more closer to that if it went a certain way here. But what I'm saying is that if we represent 55%, just because that's a majority doesn't mean that uniformly that's what our society believes. But we tend to look at it like that. When we go back, we look at elections, oh, this side won or that side won. That meant that society wanted to make this change. And it's like, well, no, that meant that a few more people in society did, but a lot of people didn't.
[00:08:46] Speaker D: Well, and I think you see that in this whole situation where you had the former Confederates serving in the United States House of Representatives and U.S. senate. So how effective was that ever going to be? I mean, okay, so they passed the Civil Rights act of 1866 and the Civil Rights of 1875. But you have people serving in federal government that were actively fighting against the Union.
[00:09:15] Speaker A: And I think they were opposed to that stuff.
[00:09:17] Speaker D: Civil rights cases in 1883, the country was, I don't think was ready. Look at the supreme court rulings in 1883 that basically nullified the 14th amendment as far as the spirit and the effectiveness of it. It took a whole hundred years to try to get another Civil Rights act after those cases.
[00:09:32] Speaker A: Well, I mean, but again, that goes into the reductive nature of our analysis. We're saying the country wasn't ready.
So when we're talking about Reconstruction and you have a vision of America that many Northerners had and wherever they were, but just many Americans had that America was supposed to be the land of the free and the home of the brave. And you're supposed to have a democratic society and people are supposed to participate in it and so forth. And then you had another view where it was more of a dominance type of thing, like we need to dominate other people and impose our will. And that tension in a sense led to the Civil War as many of the Southern states put in their writings about the war or what they were doing. They were leaving Union because they wanted slavery, should have been an eternal institution. And so it actually, when I look back at the Reconstruction piece and particularly looking at this, it seemed like they came back to the Union after the war saying, okay, we'll give up slavery, but all of our other stuff Is staying. And so you had this tension where the south was trying to reconstitute its level, its hierarchical society, its caste system, which Jim Crow became, is trying to reconstitute that. Whereas you had people from the north or just in Congress and so forth that were trying to open it up more to everyone. And so that tension basically is a tension that one of you guys mentioned, that it's kind of unfinished business. Because that's the same tension that's happening now in terms of do we wanna have a hierarchical system or do we wanna have a system where people are considered equal in terms of the law? And just because we passed the 14th amendment, you know, doesn't mean that everyone in the country believes in that. It means that the people who in control then. And then one of the things that stood out to me in the documentary also was that the Northern states made it contingent, made the Southern states, for them to get back in the union, full admission back into the Union, they had to agree to the 14th Amendment. So it was almost like an extortion.
But they never agreed to it in spirit. You know, they said, okay, fine, you know, put it on the books, but we're not gonna agree with it. And as you pointed out, Supreme Court nullified it 10 years later from a practical standpoint. So that to me is. We're really like all of the tension, basically, that existed as far as two sides pulling in opposite directions that led to the Civil War. Basically, after the military campaign ended, those tensions continue to just keep tugging. And those are the same tensions that are tugging on all of us right now.
The names have changed, the faces have changed, the. But the ideology behind them are still the same. And so it was just to see that. To see that struggle, as you pointed out, like 100 years later in the civil rights movement that we're more familiar with.
I didn't know that the parallels were so similar from the standpoint of the fight for freedom and equality and justice.
And then you see that again 100 years later, you see that still happening now.
[00:12:30] Speaker C: And it's not only the so similar.
There's several things that I identified kind of the why. One is that it's a very interesting thing you put. Because it's so true, the tension between the ideas of America, all men are created equal, that we are a constitutional republic and a democracy at the same time, so on and so forth, crashing against the rocks of reality that American slavery was a form of capitalism through labor, which helped the economy in this country explode from 1790 to 1860 you had basically a new country that was a group of colonies that had a revolution against the king of England, become a superpower in 70 years. 60, 70 years.
That's unheard of.
America is also unique.
Unlike the European nations and others that practice slavery, America held onto the institution for a lot longer and it became really entrenched in part of its laws and culture. So America, by the late 1800s, even though slavery had ended, still had maintained a caste system very effectively.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: Well, tell me this. I do want to get into the next piece of kind of what the documentary went into, which is about the post Reconstruction era and the rise of Jim Crow. Like the transition from the country is. And I say the country. I'm saying the government of the country, people in control of the government were invested in trying to reconstruct the south and not just rebuilding new buildings, but actually the social order and backed up by Union troops, federal troops in the South. And then that ended. It had petered out in the 1870s, and then it ended in 1877. So then you have this post Reconstruction era. So what stood out about that to you guys as far as what happened? Rick, you can give us your first take, the first shot at this point.
[00:14:37] Speaker D: You know, to me, what was so marked about that is that there was really no real legislative power that could otherwise have changed the system.
The fact that African Americans had some office during Reconstruction, they never really were able to get from a federal or state standpoint or even local enough legislative power.
There was something in the documentary where they were purchasing some land and trying to go that route and have some economic power. But the legislative power is really what was important.
[00:15:14] Speaker A: Well, but see, one of the things, though, with that. Let me jump in real quick, because one of the things, though, with that, because the documentary went into the efforts that went to prevent that, though, like particularly the pervasive violence that, you know, there was the lynching and so forth, that was just so pervasive in southern society and the terror, the acts of terror, you know, to where you go. Louisiana goes from having 130,000 plus terrorists, black folks on the rolls to register to vote, to like a thousand.
And, you know, and that's not just because, you know, 129,000 people decided they didn't want to vote anymore, you know, and that's death, that's terror and so forth. So the legislative power, the lack of. The lack thereof is.
[00:15:55] Speaker D: It was institutionalized. Yeah, I mean, it was institutionalized. And that goes back to just to my point about the. In 1883, with the repeal of the Civil Rights act, when you have it from the top at the Supreme Court of the United States basically saying it's okay for this to occur, there's no real way to get it.
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Well, yeah, if the violence is unrestrained, that's nuts. Go ahead, Tunde.
[00:16:20] Speaker C: Well, and that's why I wanted to jump in. Because that's another part of our current culture, our dynamics that we all hear about in today's. Whether it's the news or whatever. The kind of modern society, a lot of those roots are sown there as well, in terms of states rights versus federal. And I think that's where you can see, obviously, the Civil War was a big part of that. But the Reconstruction era, like you guys are saying, the kind of arguments in Congress, the arguments in the courts between what is a state allowed to do? And I think it might have been Louisiana, where there was a first case where because it was private citizens that had lynched a bunch of black people and not the state of Louisiana, the Supreme Court said that basically, we have no jurisdiction here.
The federal government is not gonna step in. And so I think.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: And the state of Louisiana wasn't gonna do the prosecutor.
[00:17:11] Speaker C: Correct.
[00:17:11] Speaker A: That just meant nobody was gonna do the prosecutor.
[00:17:13] Speaker C: And that's where, again, it's important to understand the whys in our history, right? You wake up today and it's like, oh, well, blacks like Democrats and federal government stuff. And the kind of whites are Republicans and they like states rights stuff. And, you know, the parties change, which is one reason why I'm a registered independent. But because there's a time in our history when both parties had a different type of makeup. But for the really, really broad argument, sense of federal versus state, this is where you can begin to see the seeds of that culture as well, meaning black Americans in the south, throughout the history of the south, up until, let's call it the last generation or two, really couldn't trust, like you said, Rick, state legislators, state police, local police, because. And as well documented, and even the witness testimonies that were read in front, you know, in front of Congress and all that, a lot of times the leaders in the local town or society, you know, the head of the Klan was also the police chief or the doctor or the lawyer. So what happens is the only way that blacks were able to get relief legally from this type of suffering from the state, the real deep state, right, Was appealing to the federal government and trying to find that dynamic between the federal and state. And there was a great quote I wrote down from one of the historians who was in the documentary talking about the late 1800s and some of this violence that was used to oppress blacks as they were.
Because what the documentary did a great job was showing the great economic advancement that was happening in the black community in the south during Reconstruction and during Reconstruction and so South Carolina. Yeah.
And that was upsetting a lot of whites, unfortunately. And one other thing to quote was they did through terrorism what could not be done with politics.
And it reminded me so much of what happened through line through the January 6, 2021 insurrection, which is again, maybe different reasons and all that. I know that the one that happened in January 202021 was not ne racial in that way or had to do with Civil War reconstruction. But it's this idea, like you said, James, about a certain type of mentality and hierarchical kind of system, which is if we're a democracy, that means it's the competition of ideas and you've got to respect norms and laws.
And if you don't like that and you don't want to have to put up with that, then violence is your answer. Right. Then you're going to take it.
And I think that we saw with Reconstruction the first real attempt at a true multicultural America that was built on merit and true capitalism and the ability to start your business or get a plot of land and all that. And that was taken away because certain people didn't like having competition.
And, you know, we could say that what happened.
Sorry, go ahead.
[00:20:21] Speaker D: It was just a small number of people that really were behind trying to make it the first attempt at equality. Like James had said, kind of at the beginning of this podcast. There's a few number of people, but they let in all these former confederates into the government.
I think it was the idea was there, but there wasn't enough to really get anything done. And you have a small number of
[00:20:46] Speaker A: do gooders, you get the. Yeah, the do gooders, the principled, so to speak, the people who took. Well, let me say this. It's the people who took the words of the founding fathers, not their actions, but their words literally and said, hey, we're gonna be a nation about equality. And they actually tried to bring that about. And they're the aspirational leaders, the ones who try to see our better angels and try want us to try to move towards a better place. You still have that now. You have people trying to make people do better and the other people trying to appeal to people's worst instincts. And that always is going to be there And I wanted to move to the thing that stood out to me other than, you know, the violence in terrorism is going to be probably the most shocking and just, you know, jarring thing to. When you. Any. Anytime you see things. These types of things on American history. I mean, if you. If you. That may be part of the reason why this stuff is left out, because this stuff is jarring. To see how the violence and the levels of terror that so many Americans, who people would consider, quote, unquote, ordinary Americans, were enacting, you know, on their fellow Americans. But other than that, the efforts to rewrite history and the obsession with demeaning blacks, just briefly, on both of them, it was jarring to me. It was shocking to me that minstrel shows were the most popular entertainment in the 19th century.
If you think you're superior. I think I'm superior to a mouse. I'm not obsessed with mice. I don't try to mock mice at every time I get a chance. Why.
[00:22:14] Speaker D: Why are.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: If. If you're. If you think you're superior to something, why are you spending so much time thinking about it? Why is it so important to you to laugh at it? Like, things that you think you're better than, you usually kind of don't. You kind of ignore and don't even really pay attention to. And so that was like, what's the obsession? What's going on here? So I didn't get that. I just like. Well, I get it in a sense, but I.
It surprised me. Like, I knew there were minstrel shows and stuff. I didn't know they were that popular and that everybody was. Was not everybody, but so many people that they can be called the most popular form of entertainment in the 19th century. And then the other thing, like the rewriting history, like the Lost Cause, like that type of thing, and then the Daughters of the Confederacy and all this thing trying to valorize the Confederacy.
You know, it was said in the documentary, and I'm gonna. It's not a quote, I'm not quoting. But just that losing the war really is what birthed the Confederacy.
Because then they became of legend and so forth, and people got to rewrite all this stuff. And so, like, you. Birth of a Nation. Yeah, all the way to Birth of a Nation in the 1900s, the movie and so forth. But this. You know, it was really shocking to me to see the extent to which those efforts were made and that they became part of people's identity, you know, like, that became part of how they felt good about themselves.
And, you know, either one of those you guys can jump on.
[00:23:34] Speaker C: But it's fascinating because think about what you guys just said. The Confederacy of the United States or the Confederate States of America was incorporated first in February of 1861 and obviously ended in 1865 with the end of the war. So you got four years that this actual entity existed.
And somehow it's dominated our culture, of our country for the last 150 years. And it's been allowed to. And that's what I'm saying. And you make a good point, James. Is that because I noticed that too. That's the Lost Cause stuff. All the way to Birth of a Nation in 1915, the Daughters of the Confederacy, the changing of textbooks in schools.
I realized in learning this stuff that it was necessary to have propaganda to change the narrative. Because you're right, James.
This stuff is actually unbelievable. Like, I could see how somebody would say, I can't believe that actually happened. And because, number one, it's painful for everybody to have to look at this stuff. And for two reasons, you needed to perpetuate the lie.
One is you needed.
You couldn't allow future generation of blacks to have something to aspire to. Right? It's almost like the old days when they chiseled the face off of a Pharaoh when they didn't like him anymore. We gotta forget the past.
Don't let these black people know that they actually could have done something. Because that 12 to 20 year period where blacks were getting elected to the Senate and Congress and all that, I mean, that showed that people could do something if they were given an opportunity. So we can let them see that. And then on the flip side is you also had to shield the white future generations because most people aren't bad people. And if most people find out that other groups of people are being disenfranchised, they may not want to continue that. So we have to have a reason for people to keep the caste system going.
And if we can erase that part of our history as a country, then there's no reason why these blacks are so lazy and stupid that they haven't gotten it together.
[00:25:45] Speaker A: Put another way, I would say everybody wants to see themselves as the good guy.
And so everybody, 95% of people, want to see themselves as the good guy. So you create a narrative that allows people to commit atrocity or to condone atrocity and feel like that their side, that they're either committing acts on behalf of or condoning the acts of, is the good side. In the same way that if you want to let Me just draw a parallel. If you want to disown an election or if you want to overturn an election, a key piece of that is to maintain that it was not legitimate, that there was something wrong with it. You can't just say, you know what? Screw it, I don't wanna do the election. Like you have to try to undermine the integrity of the election. So that then for the people who want to feel like they're on the good guy side can say well see, we have to do this because it's not legitimate anyway.
[00:26:33] Speaker C: So I mean that's why there was such a tie in to what's going on today. Cuz we could even go into birtherism and other things about well I wanna
[00:26:39] Speaker A: do something today next.
But Rick, did you have anything else on this Rick, as far as just the post reconstruction era or things that stood out to you?
[00:26:50] Speaker D: I mean, not really. I think we've covered a lot of it. I had a big thing to say on the imagery and to kind of link that through and film and the cartoons. I mean the power to be able to change the average voters, not change, excuse me, to reinforce the average voters desire of wanting to look at the world the way that that person wants to look at the world based upon where they are in the world. The cartoons, the imagery, all of, all of that. And it was huge. I just want to say that these four hours, this documentary that we're talking about, there's a reason why it's so impactful for us. We're all in our 40s and reconstruction was kind of skipped and what happened as a result of reconstruction was skipped in our, in a lot of our basic education.
The real question is why the hell is that?
Why is that? I mean I'm a, I'm a history major at a major university. I'm sure if this should have been a major piece of that even in high school. And I just, you know there's so much.
[00:27:54] Speaker C: But it goes back to what we're saying because it push it again. That would force everyone to have to look at the narrative we've all been taught as Americans and have to question it.
That you know what blacks when they were given a chance actually excelled and that things were stolen. I mean you saw the.
Yeah, like land was stolen and just like it's just. That's life.
[00:28:16] Speaker D: It's covered in history. I mean it's covered in history, but not in the detail. This PBS special I think is the, is the cornerstone of what could be built on in a larger narrative. I Mean, that's why there's a lot
[00:28:28] Speaker C: more viewing and that's why to me, the comparison, and I hate to make the parallel comparison to Nazi Germany, but it was there because I have it in my notes, because it was, because it was just like the laws, like the ability to seize property. I mean like they did with the Jews, like just all right, this is mine now, this store, because I feel like it, because you're Jewish. And I said it's mine. And it was the same thing. Oh yeah, you're black and this is, this farmland looks pretty good. It's mine now. And you know what I'm going to say, you looked at my daughter and go hang you from a tree just so I can get your land. I mean that's, that's what was happening for that generation, let's say like you guys say, right from 1865 to, you know, let's say 1900. That 35 year period was a massive economic theft. And that's why, Rick, no one talks about it because if you look, that was what's fascinating about the documentary was when they were reading the, the actual court like records and documents so people were actually testimonies. The testimonies. That's why no one wants to admit that this happened. And that's what we're seeing today is a similar thing where certain things have happened in recent years and people are just about to just rewrite it and say, no, this didn't happen.
[00:29:39] Speaker A: Well, I'll tell you this, I wonder in watching this and looking how this tension just continues. It's pervasive really in American society is do we have an eventuality thing here where eventually we're either going to actually become a land of the free that has liberty and justice for all over the continuing objection of and sabotage from white supremacists, or that white supremacists are just going to take the country down from the inside? Like, is it one of the other?
[00:30:09] Speaker C: I think it's one or the other. I don't think they coexist in the long run.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: Go ahead, Rick.
[00:30:15] Speaker D: I was just going to say, let me just say this. One of the things that I noticed that I think plays upon this and I'm going to try to make the connection here is education was not part of what the Civil Rights Acts originally provided.
The Civil Rights act said and I think the 14th Amendment said public institutions like trains and theater, but it did not specifically state that the schools needed to be integrated or that there needed to be equality in the education.
So what is the way that you change as society, what is the way that you try to get there, it's through education. And it's not until Brown in 1954 that that at least starts.
So I think that all of the quote unquote good, that reconstruction intention, it was never going to last more than that 20 years. Even if it was great, if they weren't providing equality in education, because you cannot continue to grow generations without proper education.
So why that would be a really good thing to dive into is why wasn't included in the original provision of the rights.
[00:31:20] Speaker A: Well, but you got to keep in mind at the time, 1860s, like there wasn't compulsory education by and large around the country. So that you're kind of. That's a new kind of thing also. But I actually want to, I got to unleash Tunde, you know, like Tunde has been ready to go on these parallels. So I'm going to ask you, Tunde just set you up.
I got to take the leash off, man.
Ready to go.
[00:31:42] Speaker C: I'm growling here.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: So in looking at the reconstruction and the post reconstruction eras covered in the documentary, were there any parallels in today's society that were notable?
[00:31:54] Speaker C: Of course.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Tell me, tell me.
[00:31:56] Speaker C: No, I mean, we've already mentioned, I think the big one was, like I said, just that quote, they did through terrorism. What could not be done with politics. And I would say this, and again, not just to blame, let's say the last few months or a couple years of politics. I would say this has been brewing for some time.
[00:32:17] Speaker A: Let's go. You know what's interesting? You know what jumped out to me on this, it looked kind of like Obama's election was like this generation's reconstruction. Like it caused many people's views of the way things should be to be upended and it generated a backlash. Like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what in the world is going on? Like, it's like for our generation, it now it manifests in different ways, but it was off, you know, it kind of knocked things off of a kind of equilibrium at. For some people. For many people.
[00:32:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:52] Speaker A: And you know, like there was just this reaction that has been, you know, that has a lot of energy. It has. There's a lot of energy there for
[00:33:00] Speaker D: me, the psychological importance and the actual progressive use of these various forms of media that you see over the last 150 years, up until the up from the arts with the minstrel shows and to technology. And now we got Twitter and Birth of a Nation.
[00:33:14] Speaker A: By the way, that film, to your point, Birth Of a Nation. That film was great, but it was brand new technology at the time. It was like amazing to people.
[00:33:22] Speaker D: Absolutely. It was the precursor to Cecil B. DeMille, the big wide angle lens and the whole huge movies. And that's why, you know, unfortunately the subject matter wasn't so good that they had. But if you put that technology to something else, maybe it would be better. But I wanted to point out one thing is the crisis that the Du Bois had and they use, and Ida B. Wells, they used some media, they used their pamphlets, they used writings.
Wasn't the Birth of a Nation kind of movie. They didn't have that kind of power, but they disseminated what they could through this technology and through, through writings and speeches and the oratory of some of the black leaders in that time. That was very well covered, I think in this documentary. And I think that I could have watched eight hours of this. I think four is just not enough. I wish he would do, you know, a follow up. And I think it should be a mandatory in schools.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: It was well done for me. I would say that I thought that one of the things that really the parallel that jumped off the page to me was how the will for equality, for common, you know, just for general Americans, just, you know, like those who aren't actively oppressing anyone, but who may, if not given a reason not to be okay, supporting an oppressive system that the will for equality and for justice amongst them, amongst those people, it really, it gets heightened after certain things and then it kind of wanes after those things become more distant. So right after seeing dogs being sicked on kids, or right after seeing a police officer kneel on George Floyd's neck
[00:35:07] Speaker B: for over eight minutes and kill him,
[00:35:09] Speaker A: people are fired up and want better. They want society to be better right after that. But the more or right after the Southern states secede from the union and take up arms and start killing people.
And that's unavoidable. You can't cover that up. Like that happens right after that, then people are like, hey, we gotta do better, we gotta do better. Or at least they'll support people talking like, hey, we gotta do better. But the more distant those events become, the less people are willing to demand changes in systems or demand accountability for people that do heinous acts. And so it's almost like our mean as a group of people, our collective mean, is to be okay with oppression, you know, as long as it's out of sight, you know, and. Or if it has surface level legitimacy, you know, if it's like that.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: You're absolutely right.
[00:35:56] Speaker A: But hold on, let me, let me finish it. Because, you know, like, eventually, you know, like when we see some stuff that is like too much, then, you know, like that mean gets, you know, disrupted and we're like, oh, that's no way, man. That's never that. But then like with most things, we regress back to the mean. And again, we speaking collectively as a group of people, like society regresses back to the mean. You know, so right in this past summer, after the George Floyd stuff, when it was hot, you know, people were, I'm changing my life. Or I'm, you know, this is, has to be, this can never happen again. But you know, a few months later, it's kind of just like, oh, we kind of went back to what we were before that. And so it's just interesting to me, where's the mean? You know, in terms of American society now? I would say clearly the mean is different than it was in the, in 1865 or 1880. But it still is not where some optimistic people or people who want to reach for the sky would think that it is or think that it should be. But go ahead.
[00:36:49] Speaker C: Yeah, no, I just, I think, you know, look, we all look the other way, me included. I think for me the big one in today's world is what, you know, our country is doing in our names on the border, right? Separating parents from children.
You know, I advocate for, I'm American, I love this country and I want strong borders. And I don't think people that are legal immigrants should come here into the country and be admitted without obviously going through the legal process of coming here. However, you know, I don't think we should separate a 4 month old kid from their mother, period. I mean, you know, you can hold people in a cell at the border together, you don't have to be draconian about it.
[00:37:30] Speaker A: And so, and, but that's a thing of why control of the media and manipulation of the media is so important to your earlier point. How much effort's gone into it in the post reconstruction era, how much effort goes into it now? Because what we see, if we saw that every day, like the crisis that it is, or if we saw the things that were happening in Yemen or in Myanmar Tunde which you were gonna say, then we would probably, people at least who have the similar worldview to someone like you or I would be more fired up about it on a day to day basis. But because we don't see it and we sit here, we're seeing all this other stuff, these soap opera stories on the news, and so those are the things that capture our attention. So, I mean, that's part of what you see is. Is what you end up paying more attention to.
[00:38:11] Speaker D: I'm sorry, James. I talked to everybody. You have one network covering, you know, me and Maura, and you got another network saying, well, you know, what's good? Spring food, you know, this week, and you got a whole food segment. Well, but, I mean, I think it is.
[00:38:24] Speaker A: It's tough. It's tough. Everything can't be doom and gloom, though, also. So, I mean, it's just. Hey, I mean, life is supposed to be easy now.
[00:38:31] Speaker D: You have to have balance.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, there was one other thing, and then I want to move to our last part, but one other thing that I noticed and as far as a. Which is a little lighter was, I know you guys saw the piece on the minstrel shows when they talked about some of the blacks that started doing them in, financially exploiting them. So, like, the two Real coons, which they directly. Now they directly compared that to NWA in the documentary. But, like, one thing that I got from that, when they were like, oh, well, you know, there was tension between these black artists and then the black political activists, you know, because they're like, oh, you guys are undermining our message and all that, trying to make money, which was like the same thing. I'm like, see Dolores Tucker, you know, in the 90s, you know, going in on gangsta rap or whatever, and it's like, wow. So that same fight amongst black people was happening, you know, at that time, where it's like, oh, they gonna laugh at us. Well, we gonna get paid. Why they laugh at us? Well, other people were like, yo, we're trying to get ahead, and you guys are trying to capitalize on this financially and are undermining our message. So just, you know, that similarity was. Was crazy.
[00:39:33] Speaker D: That reminded me just a little bit of. Not to jump in over Tunde, but that reminded me a little bit of one of the podcasts you did on Borat, because here you go. You got Sacha Barrett Cohen, who's a very vocal supporter of Holocaust education as a Jewish guy, and he's coming in and playing, you know, somebody who's anti Semitic on the. On the movie. And he got it from those guys and Mel Brooks and all of his stuff with, you know, the Producers and Springtime for Hitler, and we're gonna make a whole big Broadway show out of this. And there is satire, but those guys and I can't remember their names, of course, but those guys actually were the originators of it. And they talked about that in the documentary about how Eddie Murphy and Dave Chappelle. I mean, the thing that I thought right away was a Dave Chappelle show episode with the blind black guy who was.
Yeah, and that's not just genius. You know, he stole that from those guys. I mean, that's the same thing, but maybe they didn't steal it. But that's the biggest piece of genius I've seen in 30 years of comedy, and it's the best. So we talked about that on one episode.
[00:40:39] Speaker A: Well, no, we'll stay where we are now. Like, I wanted to ask you guys, from a black history perspective, you know, like, the documentary told some pretty compelling stories about notable black Americans during that period.
Was there anyone in particular whose experiences or accomplishments were particularly meaningful or insightful to you?
Tunde. Get us going on this one, man.
[00:40:59] Speaker C: Yeah, I got a few.
I got three names I'll throw out, and we can dance around them. Robert Smalls, Ida B. Wells, and Hiram Revels.
[00:41:10] Speaker A: Oh, nice, nice, nice. Well, who would you like?
Tell us about one of them.
Give us one of them that kind of stood out, or that you would. If you wanted to say something about just kind of introduce them to the audience, who would it be?
[00:41:22] Speaker C: Well, I would say I'll be quick then, and go on Hiram Revels, just because it's pretty straightforward. One was, he intrigued me. He was the first black person ever to serve in the United States Senate in 1870 from the state of Mississippi. So I just found it fascinating that, you know, within five years after the end of the Civil War and after the end of slavery, that this guy has already becomes a United States senator. Now, he actually had never been a slave. He was a born free man. But still, it was interesting.
[00:41:52] Speaker A: And.
[00:41:53] Speaker C: And then the other was. I'm quoting here from a little reading I did on him was when rebels arrived in Washington, D.C. southern Democrats in office opposed seating him in the Senate.
They debated it for two days whether he should get seated. That's what I found interesting, like you said, James, that you look back at history and you're reading something. Takes you 30 seconds, but I'm thinking about it. And we're coming off the heels of all this stuff in our own, you know, US Government now on all these debates and on the floor of Senate and Congress. And I'm just thinking, wow, this guy gets elected. He gets.
He gets elected by his state legislature to serve as senator, goes to D.C. and has got to sit there. Well, they debate if he can even serve as a senator because he's black. As a senator because he's black. Yeah. And I'm just thinking like, wow. And then it says, we would have
[00:42:45] Speaker A: done a podcast on it.
[00:42:47] Speaker C: So hold on. The Democrats based their opposition on the 1957 Dred Scott decision by the U.S. supreme Court, which ruled that 1857, which ruled that people of African ancestry were not and could not be citizens. And then they say that.
Then they argued that the 14th Amendment of 1868 overruled that. So what it also showed me was the beginning of using these things with the Constitution and the laws and the states versus federal.
I realized the Constitution's like the Bible now. Everybody looks at it and pulls out what they want for their case and disregards the rest. Yeah. And it's just funny. So that's what stuck out to me is, hold on. Not only this guy became a senator, and that's historic and all that. Then he shows up to D.C. i mean, I don't know how long it takes to get on a wagon, on a horse from Mississippi to D.C. but it probably takes a week. And that seems like a ride. And so he gets there, and then they got a debate for two days if he can actually be seated.
[00:43:46] Speaker A: But hold up. You know, sure. He saw. I'd be so upset. I'd be like, hold on.
[00:43:49] Speaker C: I just went through all this and a civil war.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: I'm sure he saw that coming, though. It's not like that surprised him. Like, I'm sure he had been treated in the past before.
He's from Mississippi.
[00:44:01] Speaker C: But it's such a symbolism of the struggle. Right.
[00:44:04] Speaker A: Like.
[00:44:05] Speaker C: Like you're saying he's from Mississippi. You went through a civil war. You survived it. Right.
And then you. All this happens and then you still gotta prove your case. Two days of debating just because you're a human being that shows up after you got nominated to be a senator from your state.
[00:44:21] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:21] Speaker C: Remember, states rights is good, except when it doesn't work in some people's favor. Why don't they let you know Mississippi decided? But you're right. And again, parallel to today, we just had an election in 2020, and you got people from other states trying to tell other states how they should have done the election stuff.
[00:44:39] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:44:41] Speaker C: It's fascinating.
[00:44:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:42] Speaker C: And that's what I'm saying. What's mine is mine and what's yours is mine. That's the attitude. It's amazing.
[00:44:48] Speaker D: What do you always Tunde? What do you Always say in these podcasts, other than you're sad, is that you have situational ethics.
[00:44:54] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:44:54] Speaker D: So, you know, and they're in their own ecosystem. Yeah, I've got those three words down, bro.
And you can do a whole podcast.
[00:45:01] Speaker C: And I didn't say the S word, by the way, so that we got through it. I still haven't said it yet.
[00:45:09] Speaker D: Show ain't over yet.
[00:45:10] Speaker C: I'm no longer sad. I'm just pragmatic. This is life.
I'm now a Buddhist, officially suffering.
[00:45:19] Speaker D: Perfect for a podcast. Exactly.
[00:45:21] Speaker C: Go ahead.
[00:45:22] Speaker D: I was just going to throw an Ida B. Wells because I thought that she was somebody who, you could say this is. Who shined the light on. Tried to shine the light. You know, the phrase shine a light on that could have been originated with her. And she just reminded me of someone who I didn't know much about before this documentary. So that's another reason to watch the documentary.
But the story of a person who just did not have political power, did not have huge economic power, but had will and knew how to write and knew how to galvanize and was a community organizer and a journalist, and she tried to do all of these interviews about how these lynchings even occurred. And that's what she was trying to determine is why were these things happening and what's the real facts here? And that took tremendous.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: And documenting it.
[00:46:12] Speaker D: Yes, and documenting it. And I wanted to give a shout out to all the photojournalists and the cartoonists before them on what was really going on. So, you know, you look at technology and you look at art and you look at imagery and how that does change things up until, you know, the 60s and Bull Connor and the fire hoses and the dogs and everything, you know, But Ida B. Wells was somebody that I thought, you know, to get a shout out and to just tell the public the truth and the precursor to Rosa park and some of that.
[00:46:40] Speaker C: Can I add one to that, too? With her, I learned and reading about her, which I just, I think is worth a shout out for her own hard work, was the suffrage movement, you know, so many. So many.
I mean, we're men, so we're not, you know, that's not a big thing on our radar. But I don't think that in reading
[00:46:57] Speaker A: about her, he brings us with all of these things. He brings us in on all these.
[00:47:03] Speaker C: Listen, Rick, I won't speak for you, James. I know you don't want to get in trouble with the boss lady at home.
[00:47:11] Speaker A: Proceed, proceed.
[00:47:12] Speaker C: No, no, no, no. But but speak for yourself.
[00:47:17] Speaker D: Let's say on some of these, we love you, but I'm not going down with it.
[00:47:21] Speaker C: Yeah, I know, exactly. That's why I'll keep it moving. But no, but just the idea that we tend to compartmentalize a lot of things, I think, in our culture. Like, okay, so Ida B. Wells was a of bunch black woman on black stuff, talking about lynchings. I thought, man, when I started reading about all the stuff she did for women's rights. Yeah. And I was just thinking the fact that she's not, like, forget about the fact she's black. She's just a woman who was a pioneer in women's rights. And the fact she's not celebrated just as an American hero for that by white or black women, you know, it's just amazing. So I just wanted to give her that shout out out of respect. I didn't realize that she was so instrumental in that whole thing.
[00:47:57] Speaker A: No, I mean, yeah, like, she was
[00:47:58] Speaker D: part of the Niagara Movement, but didn't really get the credit until sort of the end. I think she had a falling out with the leadership because she was a woman.
[00:48:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's fascinating.
[00:48:08] Speaker A: So many.
Her hands were in so many of those things. And, you know, from the journalism standpoint. Yeah, journalism standpoint. I mean, like, and then even, you know, she got thrown off of a car, a train car. And, you know, like, so all of those things, her contributions were immeasurable. And, yes, you would think that's somebody we would hear more about. And actually, I can say, for me, it was Wells and then Smalls, you know, like, so when we talked Wells already. So I'd say with Smalls, Smalls story is like a superhero type of thing. Like, this guy is, you know, he's like. He's born into, like, a struggle, you know, like a real struggle. You know, he has a daring escape where he steals a Confederate ship and, you know, sails it out and turns it over to the Union. And so he's a war hero. And then he comes after the war, he's a successful businessman and becomes a political leader. And it's like, man, this guy, you know, lived an amazing life.
[00:48:59] Speaker D: You know, like, where's the Michael B. Jordan movie with this?
[00:49:02] Speaker A: Exactly. Like, we need, you know, like, we need to have this guy. Cause it's like. Yeah, like, all of those experiences. Like, usually, Rick, like, in a movie, when they dramatize things, they'll put. They'll take like three or four people's lives and make it into one, and they'll in order to get all these type of accomplishments. This guy's just one guy. And he has all these things like business, you know, huge business leader in South Carolina, you know, elected official, all these things. It's like, man, even the after the Civil War stuff would be a story on its own. But then you do the Civil War and pre Civil War stuff. It's like, man, this guy, he accomplished so much. And to have never heard his name before. And talking about just like, how was he not recognized as one of the notable figures of the Civil War? Like stealing Confederate ships and sailing them out and then turning around and saying, okay, well, here's all the mines and stuff like that.
[00:49:55] Speaker D: The movie would have ended after the stealing of the ship and some sort of reconciliation with the white people.
[00:50:01] Speaker C: And that's how, you know, it's interesting.
[00:50:04] Speaker D: Now, New Hollywood is a little bit better.
[00:50:06] Speaker C: But no, New Hollywood's worse. But don't get me started on that. But no, I just. I was doing some reading on him as well and the fact that he was not given a pension by the US Navy in 1883 because he was black. So it's again, another note to the systemic nature of blacks being left out during this period of history, of American history, meaning blacks. 180,000 blacks served in the Union army, but none of them got a pension versus their white counterparts. So already you can say, okay, there's a systemic example of blacks just not having the same ability to live a life at an elderly age and all that as whites and to build.
[00:50:49] Speaker A: You talk about this often with a lot of things where it's like people look up now, like, oh, well, how come blacks are behind as far as these things but nobody wants to recognize.
[00:50:57] Speaker C: Correct. That's my point. That's why we don't talk about this history. Because it would take recognition that there was an equal and it was unequal handed down by the government. That's the real deep state to me. Not what people call it now. And so, and it says, In 1897, a special act of Congress granted Smalls a pension of $30 per month, equal to the pension for a Navy captain. But that's my point. Here's a guy that was a legislature, a war hero, all that took an act of Congress for him to get a pension. You know what I mean? So that stood out to me. And then the other, which I found interesting. Just some noted stuff. After the Civil War, says after the war, it says where he purchased his former master's house at 511 Prince street, which Union tax authorities had seized in 1863. And it says later in the paragraph, he allowed for his former master's wife, the elderly Jane Bond McKee, to move into her former home. Prior to her death.
Small spent nine months learning to read and write. He purchased a two story Beaumont building to use as a school for African American children. I thought, what an interesting life this guy led. After all this, he ended up owning the house of his master.
And then somehow the dynamics with the interpersonal relationships at the time that he still was in touch with the family, that he let his former mistress, right, like the master's wife, live in the house that he owned when she was elderly. And I just thought, wow, what a fascinating. Like you're saying we never heard of this guy.
[00:52:29] Speaker A: You know what I mean?
[00:52:31] Speaker C: Like, here's a black dude that was a slave, stole a Confederate ship, became a war hero, then became an elected official, then bought his master's house.
[00:52:41] Speaker A: Well, you let her.
[00:52:41] Speaker C: And let the master's wife.
And then all this business. And then had to. And then let the master's wife, like die there as an elderly woman. Wow, what a fascinating story this guy had. He lived till he's 75 years old.
[00:52:54] Speaker D: Amazing. And I just saw something as you were talking on the Runner on cnn, that they're going to have that movie, but it's starring Tom Hanks as Robert Smith.
Figured I'd throw that out there.
[00:53:08] Speaker C: I thought it was going to be Mark Hamill, you know, with a lightsaber, come on.
[00:53:11] Speaker D: That I would watch.
I just thought the lawyer in me kind of was really pissed off at the Supreme Court in the civil rights cases in 1883. So I decided to actually read the opinion and I just want to kind of close and make the connection that one of the things that Bradley says in it just is so arrogant. And I think it's. I think it's. I didn't do the research yet, but it may be quoted as a basis for some of these reverse affirmative action cases. So if you just listen a couple sentences and indulge me a little bit, I'm just going to read this and maybe leave it there. When a man has emerged from slavery and by the aid of beneficial legislation has shaken off the inseparable concomitants of that state, there must be some stage in the progress of his elevation when he takes the rank of a mere citizen and ceases to be. And this I love, the special favorite of the laws. I mean, come on. And when his rights as a citizen or a man are to Be protected in the ordinary modes by which other men's rights are protected. I mean, how arrogant is that?
[00:54:25] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I knew you actually were going to read that part before you even said it when you talked about. Because. Yeah, that's one of the more jarring things. And like just tone deaf, like.
[00:54:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:54:34] Speaker A: So your mindset is that people are asking for special treatment under the law when they can't even not get. They can even not get lynched. They can't even be allowed to show
[00:54:45] Speaker C: up to vote without.
[00:54:48] Speaker D: He goes farther. He says there were thousands of free colored people in this country before the abolition of slavery and doing all the essential rights of life in the north, and they never asked for anything. That's what he was saying.
[00:55:00] Speaker C: Well, and there's a through line to today. So a couple things. One is just like then, so you're talking 1883. So you're talking. What's that, 18 years after the end of the Civil War. And so let's say almost a full generation.
You had starting about a generation post the civil rights era, post the 60s. Right. By the 90s, you had people arguing against affirmative action and against voting rights cases. Right. And it's the same thing like, oh, you guys, you know, we did enough for you guys. You know, this is, we gotta make all this go away now. But in a minute.
[00:55:34] Speaker A: This actually was my point earlier.
It's not like those people were people that had a change of heart and then decided that, oh, okay, now that's been enough. These were the people that opposed the bringing the provision of equality in the first place. And then it just, after 15 years or so, they just added that to one of their arguments. So it's not like these weren't. Excuse me, this was disingenuous all along. They didn't genuinely say, yeah, yeah, I was all for all this 15 years ago, but now I think it's been enough. It's like they opposed it, then they opposed it later, and then they just changed their argument to suit whatever they were trying to say at that moment. So it's not going anywhere.
[00:56:16] Speaker C: It's such a through line to today. Because you're right, James, the same people making these arguments against affirmative action or against the federal government watching certain states and how they do voting practices within precincts and jurisdictions are the same people that didn't like it in the 60s and that were fighting.
[00:56:34] Speaker A: Yeah, they were opposed it when they were.
[00:56:35] Speaker C: Or they were the kids at the dinner table hearing their parents rail against it.
[00:56:39] Speaker A: So.
[00:56:40] Speaker C: And that's why let's, you know, I know we gotta close out here to get back to one of the main questions you asked, which is this tension internally within our country of white supremacy and that kind of ideology versus what this country espouses it should be and what we will believe. We were founded on equality. All men are created equal. The ability for a human being to make their own way in our society.
Those two can't coexist because any supremacy doctrine, whether it's white supremacy, black supremacy, religious supremacy, no matter what, does not, it cannot survive if equality is met.
[00:57:25] Speaker A: Well, you have to say, though, that they can't coexist forever, which is kind of the point I was making before.
[00:57:30] Speaker C: Yeah, that's my point.
[00:57:31] Speaker A: So at some point existed, but it's going to come to a head at a certain point.
[00:57:35] Speaker C: So at some point, one is going to win out over the other. And I don't know which one that is, and I don't want to be around necessarily for that fight. But I think this is where. That's why this was a great documentary series, like Rick said. I think everybody should watch this because it really. Not only does it explain reconstruction and what it was, which a lot of us are ignorant to in our country, but it's a great. It's a great reflection at us as a country, like a mirror. And it helps, I think, anybody who's interested as to how we got here as a country and all our dialogue today and our cultural memes, it's a good. It's a good foundation of that.
[00:58:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:11] Speaker C: You know, for a lot of us,
[00:58:13] Speaker A: I would say this, it's a good foundation for that, if you really want understanding. And I think part of the reason some people shy away from this is that they don't really want to understand. They want to be told something that makes them feel good or that confirms what they would like to believe.
So this is really. I mean, this is the real stuff. This isn't fake news. This is exactly what happened and why it happened. And it does explain, it does provide insight into a lot of the same struggles we deal with today. And I like the way you put it. It puts a mirror up to society because the same forces and elements that led to the way things unfolded then still exist today. And, you know, it's always about what side are you on, you know, when it comes to that. And I'm glad that, you know, like, we were able to really discuss this and each of us, you know, we watched it separately, and then we're able to have a conversation about it because, you know, different things stood out to different, you know, different things caught us Differently or it's all different things. So we're able to bring it all together. I think was, was good and you know, yeah, we definitely would encourage the audience to check it out. So we appreciate everybody for joining us on this one. And until next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:59:17] Speaker C: I'm Tunde Rick.
[00:59:19] Speaker A: Alright, subscribe, rate, review, tell us what you think and we'll talk to you next time.
