What is Driving the Manosphere and the Caricature of Masculinity it Presents?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: In this episode, we take a look at what's going on with the Manosphere and consider why there's so much focus on masculinity in our culture these days. Hello, welcome to a special crossover event with the Call, like I see it, Podcast and Disruption Now. Podcast. I'm James Keats, and joining me today is a man who is not here to gas anyone up. He just calls him High Season Tunde Ogonlana Tunde. Are you ready to give the audience a reason to keep their heads up? [00:00:40] Speaker B: Of course. Another beautiful day in paradise. [00:00:44] Speaker A: All right, all right. Well, also joining us today is Mr. Disruption now himself, a man who will be there for you, Rob Richardson. Rob, are you ready to show the people why you're all they need to get by? [00:00:55] Speaker C: Hey, ready to disrupt? Let's make it happen, brother. [00:00:58] Speaker A: All right, all right, let's go. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Hold on. Reference, though. That's all I'm gonna say. [00:01:03] Speaker C: What? [00:01:04] Speaker B: All right, I recognize that. Mary J. Reference. [00:01:06] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Okay, cool. Hopefully you're not the only one. [00:01:10] Speaker B: You dated us all. [00:01:13] Speaker A: Before we get started. If you enjoy the show, I ask that you subscribe and like both the call, like I see it, podcast and also Disruption now. And you can do that on YouTube or also your favorite podcast platform. Doing so really helps the shows out. We're recording on May 20, 2025. And fellas, we've seen so much talk and hand wringing about the so called manosphere, which you could think of as like a collection of communities and networks and so forth that create, consume, distribute content aimed at men and young boys. And a lot of it deals with masculinity and how to be a real man and alpha this and all these other things. And we've seen a lot of people talk about this and whether it may be harmful for young people or why it has become such a phenomenon. So really to get us started, Rob, I wanted to ask you, why do you think generally there's just, there's this appetite and this, there's this focus of so much masculinity in our culture right now. [00:02:04] Speaker C: Yeah, James, the focus on masculinity. And I think it's, it's, it's because, you know, we are driven right now in our society to really figure out ways how we can get each other angry. Right? And, right, that, that's really the, that's, that's the, that's the bottom line of engagement. Right? Engagement. Right. So you know, when, you know the powers that be. And now I'm talking about the social media spears when they, they Wanted to figure out how they can maximize engagement. There was no thought about what that would do to us as a society in terms of how we communicate as people. But the. But the bottom line is this, you know, what it does, what the. What the. What the algorithm rewards, I will say, is the algorithm rewards certain types of engagement. Right. So it's actually programming human behavior. It's programming our worst instincts. We've always had these instincts. We've always had battles in terms of what does masculinity mean? We've always had this tension. This is not new to society in terms of what we're talking about here. [00:03:03] Speaker A: No, for sure. I mean, we live in a patriarchal society. [00:03:06] Speaker C: Yes, we do. [00:03:07] Speaker A: We can't say that this is something that's very. That's totally out of the blue. [00:03:10] Speaker C: It's not new. What is new is like, because we've been evolving from this point. So we've got to the point where, you know, in our society right now, particularly Western society in general, it's leaning more towards a culture that is equal when it comes to women and men. And when things change like that, it often causes a reaction. We've seen the same thing happen with race. But I would argue that when it comes to men and women, I think this is the biggest kind of divide we have right now because it's across every spectrum, and it's a challenge across every type of demographic. So I think there is this. It's a natural instinct for us to have the patriarchal, like you said, lens. It's a natural bias for us to do. To be this way. And so when someone engages with someone and they don't understand, first of all, that they're. That they're triggering your emotion. We've talked about this before, like when you feel that trigger online, when you're angry, when you're mad, you're upset. You know, a lot of these things are based in some parts of reality. The problem lies in that we go down these rabbit holes and it takes you to extremes. And then you get to the point where everything is just about, you know. What it means to be a man is to make sure that women submit to you. What it means to be a man is that you have to be ultraly aggressive. What it means to be a man is that there's no time for sensitivity because that feels like there's an instincts about. Every man has that instinct. Like, yeah, they want to be the general, they want to be the alpha. And what they don't realize is that they're being Exploited by these people that are pretending to say that you're an alpha, and they're really making you a beta to follow their content. [00:04:41] Speaker A: So we don't understand that. Well, you have to create a caricature basically, of masculinity, and then that is something. Something that sells where. Well, it seems like you brought up the idea of backlash, you know, like. Because we've seen. We've seen Dr. King, you know, talked about how anytime there's. There's quote, unquote, black progress, there is a white backlash. Is something you can observe throughout United States history. It's interesting you frame this in terms of which you could definitely see if. If this is following a MeToo movement, then it definitely could be seen as a backlash, so to speak. Tunebag, what you got on this, man. What do you say? [00:05:15] Speaker B: I was gonna say is why there's. [00:05:17] Speaker A: So much focus here. [00:05:18] Speaker B: No, it's just to piggyback on what you guys are talking about. I mean, I think, first of all, Rob brings up something great, which is the incentive structure of our current, let's say, information networks. So let me just put it in a broad term that way. But to speak on what you guys are talking about, I wrote a note as Rob was talking, that says egalitarianism. But it's interesting. I didn't think coming into this conversation about the equating. This was some of the other areas we've seen, let's say, in the majority group, feeling pressured in our society because they've been asked to treat others equally. Right? [00:05:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:51] Speaker B: And we've learned that some people, when asked to share, they look at that as oppression. So it's not a. Like. So I guess I'm saying I'm agreeing with you guys and actually seeing it through this kind of greater lens of other areas of our culture as well. Because it's kind of the same thing with us men, Right. With the Me Too movement. And not just Me Too movement. Let's say it's since the start of modern feminism in the 60s all the way to me too. What have us men in a patriarchal society been asked to do is just share, right. The spoils of our society with women in a more egalitarian way. And we know all the stats about the glass ceiling with income and all that other stuff. Right. And so my point is, is that it made me realize, as you're talking, Rob is like, yeah, you're right. Like, for some men being asked to do certain things that would either be seen by others, like the three of us as Respectful towards women, maybe chivalrous, maybe whatever. They look at that as. As being somehow that they're a victim of something, right? They're being oppressed and they're being told they have to do this or that. And I just, like you guys are saying, I'm realizing, man, that's going on a lot in other pockets of culture as well. But obviously the manosphere has a way of playing on that emotional need for some to feel like the reason why they're in their position and their position in this life that they might not like is because it's someone else's fault. And as we're talking about, the manosphere gives a great outlet for men who want to blame women for all their. [00:07:24] Speaker A: Problems, which, like, it was brought up already. Like, it's not some new impulse, so to speak. I'll tell you this, man. I think that this kind of goes back to the most basic imbalance that there is between men and women, which is that women have something that men would move mountains for, and men don't have anything that women quite want quite that much, you know, like, you know, like, that's cool, you know, but it's like, you know, there's. There's endless comedian jokes I could throw in right here, but just men will. Men are, you know, rabid about women, you know, in general, you know, so, I mean, like, certain religions, you know, they'll. They'll make all the women cover themselves up because it's like, yo, we cannot trust the men to, like, be productive if the women aren't completely covered up, you know, and so, like, that basic imbalance. Like, I think men in societies for a long time have been trying to figure out how to. How to deal with that, you know, because you can't. If all the men all the time are just running around like. Like, we see it with. With. And I. The comparison isn't intentional, but we see it with dogs. Like, if there is a female in heat with dogs, the male dogs lose their mind, you know, and they can't think about anything else. And so I think that that basic imbalance kind of is the root of a lot of this, where it's just like, men think about women and think about certain things about women a lot, you know, and so then how do we deal with that from a societal standpoint? I think that the appeal of the manosphere is in two things. Where. Well, where. In the masculinity. One, in times when there's upheaval in society, change in society. I think change was already mentioned. People who are just naturally more fearful or in a time of their life where they may be more insecure naturally cling to known hierarchies. And so there's just going to be an audience, like right now, society, there's been upheaval and young men, we know, are particularly drawn to this stuff. And that's a time when men are in a time of insecurity. So it makes sense why those people might be more prone to try to find and cling to hierarchies that exist already. The other thing is that the manosphere, so to speak, and this masculinity, this caricature of masculinity that we see being put forth is very reductive. And so it makes it very easy, so to speak, to navigate through life because everything is a black and white decision. There's no gray to like, oh, you're this. So that means I treat like this and so forth. And so whereas, you know, with. Once you have a more mature ability to navigate through life, then you can understand the grays and how that's how certain things can interact and so forth. So I think it's a talk. And then obviously, as you guys talked about the information systems that promote this, these and that prey on these things. So I think it's a lot of that stuff as to why, you know, we're kind of seeing this focus on masculinity. But I mean, the, the backlash piece that kind of came up in the initial was. Is a really good point in terms of why it might be coming to more of a head now. [00:10:09] Speaker C: Yeah. If I can. Jace, I think there's one other thing too, and I want to. Want to preface this. I'm going to give signs to all the men listening out there so you'll know. So you'll have warning signs if you're headed towards in cell life. Okay. That's part of our reasoning. Part of our. I think part of the problem too is you, you mentioned it kind of that men have always obviously wanted and valued women. That's just the fact. Right. But now we're in a stage where it's. It's. Men know about all the women they're not getting. [00:10:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:42] Speaker C: Number two, men don't know how to actually talk to women they can't talk to as a general point. Right. So. So like we. And there's a lot of reasons for it, but part of it is how we're socialized. And so like, we've got to this point where a lot of men don't know how to actually talk to women. So I want to help everybody out, you know, a little bit of comic relief. But I'm going to give you some signs if you're headed towards an incel life and then we're going to talk about how to avoid it. All right, so here's some signs. All right, ready? Drum roll. We can get it. Sign number one. You think paying for a date or opening a door for a girl is somehow oppressive and you're simping. Sign number two. When you go on a date and you happen to get a date with a young woman, your first conversation is about submitting. Do you know how to submit to a man? Do you know what that means? Are you ready to submit to a man when you barely have a plan or have any resources? Like your first conversation should not be about submitting to a woman. If you are talking about submitting to a woman all the time, you got issues. Number three, if you keep talking about a high value man every single time and you listen to people being high value men, you might want to, you might want to watch yourself. Number four, if you spend more time online arguing about what it means to be a man and dating than actually trying to date, you might be headed towards the end. Cell number five. [00:12:03] Speaker A: All right, how many do we got? Man, we got the last full letterman out on us. [00:12:07] Speaker C: Yeah, I know, right? Number five, if you think replying to DMs saying hey is a way of flirting, you might want to get out and actually talk to people. Like, this is what I want people to understand. Like these triggers. Well, there's all these triggers you see, and they're baiting you into something. You need to get outside and get outside of this mansphere. [00:12:27] Speaker A: There's a commonality in everything that you brought in. [00:12:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I was gonna say go, James. I wanna go after. [00:12:32] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. So just real quick, the thing where online you're exposed to so many things but you don't really interact with them. It kind of, that's what you're talking about there. Like if you live in a town of a hundred thousand people, then that's all you see. Then your expectation for women is going to be a little different and you're going to be forced to go out and interact with people, which you're going to get good at talking to them and so forth. The goal isn't to make somebody to tell somebody they got to submit. If you really know what you're doing, somebody will want to be on your team, you know, like they won't. [00:13:02] Speaker B: You Won't be like, hey, you got to be. [00:13:03] Speaker A: It's like, no, no, I want to be down with that person. So, you know, like, there's a difference there. And then, you know, like, so if you don't interact with people enough to actually get a proficiency at it, or if you see all these people that are unattainable to you, not just unattainable from a status standpoint, but like geography, like somebody, oh, I'm looking at all these women that live in la and I'm like. It's like I can't talk to them, you know, I can't see them in person. You know, so it kind of creates this fantasy world. So Tunde, real quick. I know, because we'll kick it to the next part. [00:13:29] Speaker B: I was going to say the same thing that kind of the through. I was going to say the through line is you gotta go outside and touch the grass. And that's true. [00:13:38] Speaker A: Because if you succeed and fail, by the way. [00:13:41] Speaker B: Yeah, well, if I fail more than. [00:13:42] Speaker C: You succeed, that's a really important point because all of us have shot our shot because we came from that age. And most of the time you fail, but you only need to succeed once. That's all I gotta say. [00:13:52] Speaker B: But it's all about. But it's about everything. It goes back to the other pockets of our culture where there has become more public tension due to the Internet, right? Due to, like, we're saying, people having things in front of them. And then what happens is they don't go out and actually interact with other people as much. And therefore they get the rabbit hole, right? The spiral down into this isolation. And that could be a religious, you know, about people, how they feel about other religions, other, you know, groups of tribalism. And this one is. Is women, right? If men don't go out, like you're saying, in congregate. And like you said when we were young, Evan James, you said this on one of our discussions prior. Like, when we were in our early 20s, we had to go out and actually go to a club if we want to meet a woman. And we knew we had probably had to go talk to 10 different chicks if we wanted to get two or three phone numbers. And, you know, like you said, you have to shoot your shot. And, you know, you learned also how to interact with people. You learned how to deal with rejection. You learned how to, you know, what your style as a man was, if you wanted to be more aggressive and get rejected more often or not. You know, all that kind of stuff. And what Happens is the Internet doesn't allow for any of that learning and that kind of malleability that's developed emotionally between, let's say, the late teens and early twenties in a man. And, you know, I think that's. [00:15:11] Speaker A: Well, it just gives a convenient alternative. That's what we came to before is just like. Well, instead of like. Because if you think about it, what you just said, instead of getting rejected, I'm going out. I'm going out. I'm planning to talk to 10 people, and I'm hoping to get two. Right, like that in your mind already. Think about the expectations. If expectations define your life experience, then you're right. If you hit, like, if you get four numbers, that scenario, you're on top of the world. You're like, yo, this is the best night. But you still got rejected more than you got accepted. But it's like, this is the best day of the world. Best day of my life. You know, four numbers, you know, and so like your expectations. Whereas if you don't do that, you might have one or two bad interactions and be. And like, I'm done with this, you know, type of thing. [00:15:46] Speaker C: Exactly. [00:15:46] Speaker A: And that's so. But I do want to keep us moving the manosphere in particular. And like the online piece, I know we kind of already been dealing with this, but just like the way that it is. And you alluded to this a little bit, Rob, but I want to get deeper into it. The concerns people are raising about this, whether it be about the development of men in general, which we've kind of touched on, and then also kind of male, female relationships. Are there any of the concerns that we've heard about, they really stand out to you, do you think that are particularly notable about kind of the challenges that this. The specific challenges that this is causing us and making us, you know, having to deal with as a society. [00:16:24] Speaker C: All right, trigger alert coming. I'm going to say this, all right. The most. The most pro feminine thing that can be done is to figure out how to help isolated young men. And why is that? Why do I say that? Because they are prone to be very dangerous when they're isolated, when they're frustrated, and when they don't know how to interact in society. And, you know, I've talked to a lot of women and they're saying, well, they shouldn't feel entitled to go out with people. Yeah, all of that misses the point. What we need to do is figure out how we can reach these young men. So this is the part where testosterone is very Dangerous. [00:17:02] Speaker A: We need to give it a, Give it a, Give it a path, not just let it go. [00:17:08] Speaker C: That's right. And of course, boys have to have discipline and all those things, but we have to look and understand this problem. And then with social media now and these and these in the information networks like we are now, it's easy to actually create somebody that might be a little. Feel a little bit lonely at a moment. We've all, all of us have been men and have been frustrated at a time with an experience we've had on the, with the opposite sex. Like it's happened, it is part of life. But what these, but what this information network does to you now is it makes it feel like this is happening to you because they're against you, because these women are doing something to you. And it feels real. And we've seen that have political consequences. We've seen that have relational consequences in that when people are listening to these people in the manosphere, they go out on dates trying this stuff, and they're surprised when it doesn't work. I mean, this is like, we have to. We have. So we have to. [00:17:59] Speaker A: Well, not just that. [00:17:59] Speaker C: I think women actually want to help. [00:18:02] Speaker A: Young men in that issue, though. And not to cut you off, but not just a surprise, but sometimes it becomes violent or sometimes there are other antisocial behaviors that follow when it, when these unreasonable expectations don't work. [00:18:14] Speaker C: Correct. No, that's a great point. And, and I want to say, like, well, people say let's just up to men to get that together. You can say that. But if we don't do this, we know there, that there's, there's tendencies towards violence, there's tendencies towards, you know, women being less safe. So. Yes, and that is up to. Men have to help on that too. But I want to let. No, it's also in women's interests very much to make sure that this happens. And this is why we have to partly get this together. And there needs to be some empathy. So from the other side of this, you know, you'll hear the extremist point with, with, with, with. From how people view men. And there is that point out there as well that all men that when we hear people say toxic masculinity. Right. I don't like that term because it's assuming that masculinity is toxic. It is not. [00:18:57] Speaker A: Right. [00:18:57] Speaker C: The problem is, like people, we, we've. The manosphere has changed what it means to be masculine, but we also don't. But it's all. It's also not helpful. If women are just attacking masculinity as a problem, it is not a. Masculinity is not a problem and femininity is not a weakness. [00:19:15] Speaker B: Yeah, let me jump in there because one of the things as you say that, I think it's a great point about the use of the term toxic masculinity because I think one important thing as a society that we're probably working through right now, meaning the greater United States culture, is the definition of masculinity. And that clearly is morphing. I think a lot of. There's a lot of reasons for that. I think one is cultural change, to James's point, creates some fear amongst part of the population. And we see it, as we've mentioned at other pockets of the culture where that fear can cause people to retreat from other people and kind of dig more on their heels and have that victimhood mentality a little bit about why they're in their station is someone else's fault, why things aren't so good in their life. And I think that's what we see with a lot of men. But I also think part of this, and I want you guys to get your guys opinion on this, like we have a different type of leadership culturally right now than we've had during at least our lifetimes where we have both in politics, business, we've always had it in entertainment, but I think more so on the business and political side where there is more of a machismo kind of macho type of thing. I mean, we have a current vice president that in the campaign last year was calling people childless cat ladies and that. That wasn't Right. Right. Trying to have some idea of how women should be, you know, and they should be having babies and all this. And women that don't have babies should be judged a certain way. We have people like Elon Musk, who's a cultural figure, leader in business, who has 100 kids potentially, you know, from what we hear now. So I think there's also some of that where a lot of men who other men look up to in our society now have been behaving this way. And I think leadership matters. And there's a segment of the male population that has been following those leaders. [00:21:03] Speaker A: Well, I mean, there's been like, if those people are in prominent places in society, then it also appears to be a positive association with behaving like that. [00:21:12] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying. [00:21:13] Speaker A: So society's behavior, like. And I think actually where I would go with this, the reason I Think we should all pay attention to this. We should all be paying attention to it. Like Rob said, it's a problem for. For women as well, but I think it's a problem for society overall. But the issue is that the manosphere and what we're talking about specifically here is the effort and the attempt to redefine manhood, you know, and redefine what it is to be masculine. And so. And I think a lot of this is kind of a reaction to the. The MeToo movement, which at times. Which was very helpful on one hand, but at times got a little overboard, you know, and so you're going to have this. This reaction. And so there's been people that have had a lot of success that have been at a very out front and open and kind of really on their sleeves. A machismo, I think, was a good way to put it. Form of masculinity as the only form of masculine. Only way to be masculine is this and that. And I think some of that comes to the rest of us guys is to be able to demonstrate other forms of masculinity. Because I look at a lot of these dudes, I'm like, these dudes aren't masculine, you know, like Mark Zuckerberg's. Like, you have any more masculine energy? I'm looking at, dude. Like, man, I. Nah, man, you're not. [00:22:19] Speaker C: You don't have masculine energy in my nerd dog. You're not a. Yeah. [00:22:22] Speaker A: You know what I'm saying? So, like, I think that it's on, like, where I would say I would look to men who are comfortable enough and confident enough in themselves that they don't have to wear their masculinity on the sleeves. But these other dudes don't be messing with, though. Like, it's not like I'm worried about these other dudes coming up on me. It's on people like that to. To stand up and be like, well, no, this is how you be a man. It's not about, you know, stepping on a woman. It's about protecting your circle, you know, so. So to speak. And so those alternatives have to be made public as well. And we got to call out the people that are suckers posing as masculine because that gives them the armor for their sucker Dom, you know? [00:23:01] Speaker C: That's right. Yeah. [00:23:01] Speaker B: Well, that's where I got to jump in, because I was going to lie. This. That Zuckerberg thing, to me, is the exact thing that I think we all need to keep calling out in general. Here's a guy worth $100 billion or whatever he's worth, right? One of the probably top 5 to 10 wealthiest people in the world who has made it through this system that we have in this country as a man. And he's also hired and promoted all this woke stuff. Like Sheryl Sandberg, his right hand is one of the top leading corporate feminists in America. So that's what I mean by, like, whether it's, you know, I don't want to name names, but just a lot of the men at the top of our culture right now who are popular are also, at the same time, they want to claim all this manhood stuff. They're like, victims at the same time. [00:23:48] Speaker A: Like, I really don't. Whining about how somebody goes. [00:23:52] Speaker B: They're constant. Yeah, they're constant victims. And I just don't get it, because to your point, James, I'm like, you know, and that's what I mean. It's a cultural thing because we were raised at a time when our leaders were stoic. They, you know, it was seen to be the masculine thing, was to actually have discipline, self control. Right. Part of the discipline was holding it down at home. Like, you. Most presidents have one wife, right? And they weren't out there philandering and all that and being proud of it because that was seen as undisciplined. And now we have the opposite, where these guys. We have leaders in our country promoting men who've been accused of rape in other countries and bringing them back to the United States and celebrating them online and. And promoting this. This kind of. I'll use that term, toxic masculinity, in my opinion, in terms of. [00:24:38] Speaker C: Call it just toxic behavior, only because. [00:24:40] Speaker B: Toxic behavior is a better antisocial behavior. So that's where I'll just finish with. This is, like, part of it. I'm looking at this. This, like a visual. Who do we as a society want to promote as someone strong and masculine? Is it the idea of the Tibetan monk who's, you know, 65 years old that can fight off, you know, 20 guys on his own, but he's a quiet guy and reserved, you know, talk softly and walk with a big stick type? Or do you want to be the gorilla beating your chest and be in, like, one of these, you know, third world dictators that's always like, I'm the greatest, and all this stuff. And I used to think. I mean, I was raised and grew up in a culture where looking at the gorilla beating his chest was something of like a laugh, like a caricature. And that the stoicism was the way to do it. And it's just like, I'm living through a cultural change. [00:25:26] Speaker C: Well, but the thing. [00:25:28] Speaker A: Just real quick, Rob. But the thing is, is that when things aren't. When times aren't that crazy, the guy beating his chest looks tough. But what we know is that when things get really tight, that's usually the guy that's running and hiding behind some woman. And whereas the guy who's more stoic oftentimes is the guy that has courage to face up to whatever's going on and deal with it. And so some of it did to pull one of yours. It's like the Miles Maslow's hierarchy thing. Like, our society hasn't faced the level of adversity where people who beat in their chest get exposed as cowards, you know, because they can just beat their chest all the time. So I think we'll see that. But Rob, real quick, finish us up on this and we'll get to our last point. [00:26:05] Speaker C: Say this like the richest man in the world. And. And some, probably the most, one of the most admired men in the world are doing the things that you're very toxic behavior. It's got like 11 different baby mamas is. Is also a blatant racist, throwing up Nazi salutes. They're doing things like they think just speaking mean to people, degrading people, essentially being an. Is what it is. What you're saying it equates to. [00:26:30] Speaker A: That's the chest beating stuff. [00:26:32] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, it's the chest beating stuff. Right. But you're right, leadership both affects and infects the culture. And now we have algorithms that can amplify what we do times 10,000. So there's a. The creator of Nazism once said, you know, you tell a lie once, it stays a lie, you tell it a thousand times, it becomes the truth. Now, with algorithms, you tell a lie once you repeat it with the algorithms is a million times, it becomes religion. And so somehow you can make up a narrative and people don't even see the other stuff that's done, and they only believe the narrative that's in front of them. And so what we have to do here, the counterbalance to that is we got to figure out how to make, you know, masculinity. [00:27:12] Speaker A: You should save that. And you should save that. Because my next question actually is, do you think this is ultimately a tech driven issue or. Or is this a societal issue that we're seeing more so amplified because of tech, you know, and is there a way you know, understanding which one of those or where we are on that spectrum. Is there a way to kind of move society to. Towards a more healthy place? Like you're not going to solve anything overnight, but just to kind of. To counterbalance this and move us in a better direction? [00:27:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So is this. So the question is, is this, in terms of what's happening with the. [00:27:43] Speaker A: Is this tech or is it society. [00:27:45] Speaker C: That we're seeing society driven or tech driven because of this tech driven? Right. The answer is it's both. But what's different this time? And if I can give me a second. We've always had divides. We've always had divides politically. We've always had divides in terms of the role of women and men. But now we can't agree on basic facts when things happen. This is the new part, right? [00:28:06] Speaker A: Well, then that sounds like you're saying it's tech driven. [00:28:08] Speaker C: It definitely is. The new part is how tech is driving new kind of communities, is keeping people connected. So, you know, it used to be much harder for people to come together and just rally around a point. So now if I don't like a woman, suddenly I have a community of 100 other people that can go and harass her easily and coordinate, and I'm incentivized to do that. Right. That is different. Right? [00:28:32] Speaker A: It used to tell me I'm right, by the way. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, man, you're the biggest victim ever. [00:28:37] Speaker C: Right? And you. And here's the part that we have to understand. It feels real because the, because the algorithm know us better than we know ourselves. So they know how to play into our emotions. They know how to play into our. Into our insecurities. So if. [00:28:53] Speaker A: All right, all right. Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, stop, man. It sounds. You're saying all this stuff. It doesn't. You're fence sitting. Tell me, is this tech driven or is this something that you think is just tamp tech? Like kind of. We're seeing it because of Tech 100. [00:29:06] Speaker C: Tech driven right now. [00:29:08] Speaker A: All right, there we go. Off the fence. That's what I'm talking about. I see it, man. [00:29:13] Speaker C: It's 100% tech driven. And tech companies can't hide behind the fact. Well, people want to do this. People want to do a lot of things that we create rules and environments to make sure that they can't do it. That's literally why we have laws and rules and they have to do the same thing. That's how I view it. [00:29:28] Speaker A: No, no. So, Tunde, Tunde, what you got, man? What you got on this one? Rob is in one camp, tech driven or a societal kind of phenomenon that we're just seeing because of tech. [00:29:40] Speaker B: I'll say on my theme from today that this is one of several areas of our culture in our lives that have been, that we've all noticed have changed. So I would say it is part of our humanity, but the current conflict and feeling of uneasiness has been tech driven. And so. [00:29:57] Speaker A: All right, there we go. [00:29:58] Speaker B: I would say this, and this is. Rob brings up a good point about this is the whole purpose of why we have laws, right? Like, I'd like to drink half a bottle of bourbon and go try and drive my car down the street. I mean, that seems like it'll be fun, but there's laws that say I shouldn't do that and if I do it and I get pulled over by a police officer, probably going to take me to jail, right? So that begs the question, as if we see a new, you know, agent, for lack of a better word, entered into society, a new, A new thing. And that causes societal disruption to the way we've seen it. A lot of people are paying and like Rob said, people getting harassed online and it has a real life consequences all this. Then is there a role for government to come in and regulate this space with any new laws? I'm not saying yes or no. I'm saying that's a question that we should be asking ourselves. [00:30:53] Speaker A: That's something we need to figure out, that's for sure. Because yeah, I think it's tech driven too. And here what I'll say is that we recall, remember we did the documentary years ago, the Social Dilemma, and one of the things they said that social media, particularly the algorithmic part of it, the curation is, can do is create imperceptible changes in behavior. So it can change you change your behavior without you realizing that it's changing your behavior. So I think that's what we're seeing here. The, the insecurities, the fear, the. All of that stuff. That stuff is real. That's real human emotion. That stuff is playing out in people's lives. But people have always been insecure. People have always, like, none of these impulses that we're seeing are new. You know, like they may be exacerbated because of access that tech may provide, but they're not new. And, but what is new is the ability not just for you to access this stuff, but for this stuff to change you in ways that you're not even observing. And I think that's where we're, where we can really see the effect of this redefining or I would say this. Your definition of masculinity can be a puff your chest out kind of guy. And it also can be a guy who's disciplined, who's strong, and who doesn't wilt under pressure. But one of those definitions basically is taking predominance over the other, you know, and so that effect, I think is a tech driven thing. And so, you know, the issue reminds me of fake news in a sense. And we've had, we've even done a podcast with Rob before talking about is fake news supply driven or demand driven? And ultimately it seems like it's supply driven because there are ways in which the algorithm knows how to play on us. You talked earlier about, you know, the, the, the, the lie being told once, you know, versus a lie being told 100 times. Well, that is, we know what that is. It's called the mere exposure effect. That's a cognitive bias. We also know of confirmation bias. So once you show some, somebody something enough, then they start believing it's true. And then once they believe it's true, that's all they see and anything else they disregard. So we, we are already know how our minds can be moved from normalcy to fringe places and we are the tools to do it. And not just that it is profitable for some people to do it. So I think it's a tech driven issue. You got to get some way to, whether it be, you know, you got to publicize your algorithms, whether there's limitations on how much you can manipulate people through algorithms, I don't know. But it's definitely an issue where every issue in our society now becomes something that gets exacerbated. I should say this, not every issue, these things are based on normal human emotions, raw human emotions. But then the tech issue allows that stuff to become greater issues than it otherwise, than it otherwise would be if it a whole hum issue versus if it's something that becomes life or death to people or people violence just coming out of it and so forth. [00:33:31] Speaker C: Yep. And the reason why we see the example of the, of the larger beating your chest machismo thing is tech driven. Some of the owners of the platforms we talked about actually want to push that. And I think the reason makes them more money. That's what I was going to get, more engaging. It's a pure, it's an easy way to make money. It's a, there's, I think there's a lot I argue There's a lot of ways they could probably make money, but the algorithm and what they found is this audience in this way and focusing on this method of human behavior gets us the maximum return with the least amount of effort. So we're going to keep doing it. That's what I think. [00:34:05] Speaker B: Well, and this is my concern, actually, that you guys are speaking to, which is we now have crossed, like, I don't want to say we crossed the Rubicon. I'm being all dramatic, but we have crossed, I think, a line where those in power right now, both corporate and political, benefit from a lot of this what I would consider fire hose of falsehoods type of disinformation. So that's where I'm concerned that, that this will continue because those who are currently in power benefit from this type of disruptive narratives in society, keeping everyone at the bottom a little bit off kilter. So we're all, you know, doing what we're talking about. Not me, not the three of us, but people out there are fighting each other online and not able to really see, you know, who, who is causing some of the misery, which is the people at the top allowing this type of discourse to continue to take place. [00:35:01] Speaker A: No, no, for sure. I mean, I think that, that there are other benefactors, basically, other people who benefit from the idea that you have this divided society, that everybody's at each other's throats, that when people are at each other's throats, when there seems like there's a lot of conflict, that creates an environment where people, more people turn to like that strongman type of leader, because it's like, oh, just save me from all these people that hate me and so forth. So there are people who would benefit from it, who would help push things in that direction. And so, I mean, but that, again, that's not new, you know, like, but what is new is the ability to kind of, to really fundamentally change people and how they perceive things and how they think about things without them realizing that you're doing it. And I think that to me is the underlying piece that we just can't escape here. And so getting a handle on it will always come down to the ability to deal with that, you know, so. Yeah, but before we wrap up, Rob, did you, Rob Tunde, any specific thoughts, you know, or anything else as far as, like, how we can get better, how can we. We can even point the arrow in a direction that's better than where we are now? [00:36:03] Speaker C: Well, on a large scale, we can't do that much about policy at the tech level, that's going to take a lot of effort, but we at least need to be aware of what's happening and people understand that they are being manipulated and that we can do something about it if we choose to do so. So the first thing we gotta do is awareness. Awareness of what's happening and awareness that we do have power and we can hold those in power responsible for making sure we create policies. But until that time, we have to individually take responsibility. You know, talk about, talk to our boys about how to, about how to communicate, make sure they get off the phone, make sure that we are not allowing that to be a default just to take up time. We have to do these things to be more intentional. We have to teach them how to, how to have communication. We have to teach them that it's okay to get shot down and for a girl not to like you. Teach them how to deal with resilience. Teach them how to feel and understand and how to actually create relationships and encourage them to be sensitive and not listen to what others tell you. Masculinity is like. Most of that is noise. Most of that is for entertainment. It is not. Even if it feels real, it's not money off of you, really what's in front of you. [00:37:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's really like the, the tech issue, like you said, is going to take time, but there are issues within to address the vulnerabilities that the tech issue is taking advantage of. I think it's something that we have to pay attention to. And so yes, those things like giving people something else to feel good about, you know, like, and that is how you increase, you know, how men perceive their world around them, you know, and whether that's sports, whether that's just other competitions, things like that, like that stuff we need, you know, like that stuff we need. You need to win some, you need to lose some, you understand? Losing is not the end of the end of the world and so forth. And so building more well rounded people I think can be done even in the presence of a tech monster that's trying to destroy us all, so to speak. Tunde, last thoughts before we wrap up. [00:38:01] Speaker C: My last. [00:38:01] Speaker B: Let me come in and derail this Kumbaya happy time. [00:38:04] Speaker A: You're going to be the voice of pessimism today. You're usually glass half full, man. [00:38:09] Speaker B: No, we're glass half empty today. Oh man, you guys are too happy and all this. [00:38:15] Speaker A: Well, we're just focused on what we can control. That's all it is. [00:38:18] Speaker B: No, because you can't control any of that. That's my concern. [00:38:21] Speaker A: Oh man. [00:38:22] Speaker B: Here's my concern. I think the Internet is going to become like other things. I mean, it already has in my opinion. And what I'm thinking of is our food in the United States. Because, Rob, I appreciate your optimism about we all should be talking to our boys. Because I agree with you. We all should just like I believe we all should eat healthy and not have, you know, lay's potato chips at midnight. Right. Like my point is, is that we are in a United States. We're in a culture that is, you know, the whole history of America has been a very individualistic culture. But right now it's a little bit on that hyper steroids, you know, overdrive that, that mentality. And this idea, Rob, what, what it would take to do what I wish I would hope happens. What you said would be an idea of collectivism, right. That, that we need to help young men starting at a certain age, probably middle school, you know, all that learning. So we're in a country that is basically just erased. Is Department of education, meaning this idea of investing in the future and young people doesn't seem to be something at the top of the mind of the nation or on states. The other I thought of is. So that goes to my point about where we're putting our national treasure and kind of our interest in the future. It doesn't appear to be in young men in that way. Second, I even had an idea, something like national service, like they do in Switzerland and Israel, you know, after high school. [00:39:46] Speaker A: That's something people. Something to feel good about themselves. [00:39:48] Speaker B: Correct. Think about how many young men between the ages of 18 and 26 are sitting around cities in the US doing nothing. Right. Getting in trouble, messing around. What if they were in the military, got some discipline, got to go see the world we're in the navy and the army, all that. Going to Germany. [00:40:02] Speaker A: Build some stuff like. [00:40:03] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, build some stuff and build your self esteem. Build discipline. Right, but who's calling for that right now? Because no one is right? [00:40:11] Speaker A: Those woke. [00:40:12] Speaker B: I'm just thinking about crazy woke people. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Not even them. [00:40:14] Speaker B: Yeah, well, yeah, I forgot it was those woke people. Yeah, they had too much dei. [00:40:18] Speaker A: Any idea you don't like. That's all you got to call it. [00:40:20] Speaker B: And so. And so the idea is, is. Well, and what I'm saying is the reason why I thought about food is. And we've done this discussion before, we go to other countries, the food's regulated different, right? [00:40:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:34] Speaker B: When you go to China, they, they regulate their social media different of how their young people deal with it. And the last I'll say is, you know, one of the sad things in the last decade that I think is a symptom of the way social media is allowed to behave in the United States. I've never heard this in any society in human history. Children committing suicide. And I use the word children on purpose. I'm not saying young people. I've heard of kids as young as 9 years old in the United States committing suicide in the last decade because of harassment, online bullying and all that. I've never read anywhere in human history kids that age committing suicide. Even when we had kids going into coal mines. So there's something going on here that's not right. If you got little kids, 9, 10, 12 year old kids feeling like that much pressure that they got to kill themselves. When we've had all this history of kids, you know, child labor, all this bad stuff that kids went through and we never heard of kids. [00:41:29] Speaker A: Yeah, if you go back through history, it's been a lot of negative stuff. [00:41:32] Speaker B: But that's what I'm saying. [00:41:33] Speaker A: That's definitely something wrong culturally, you know, but I mean, ultimately cultural evolution can happen much faster than, as we were talking about the other day, much faster than biological evolution. So it's something that is changeable. But I agree with you that the priorities right now, the people in leadership right now don't. This doesn't seem to be the direction we're heading down, but it may be one of those things that it just has to get worse for people to reprioritize and it will what they want in leadership, you know. [00:42:00] Speaker B: So my concern, James, is that as it gets worse, new generations will think that's normal, like think about this and we talk about other cultures. I'm sure maybe some lady one day said this burqa thing might go away one day, you know, a couple hundred years ago in the middle of. [00:42:17] Speaker A: I mean, we don't know because sometimes things get bad and they get worse and then sometimes things get bad and that creates the impetus for things to get better. I'm sure there were people in the 1700s that thought that America would never get rid of slavery or, you know, something like that. So there are ways that society can improve. As we talked about calling it out, turning people's attention to it is probably the first step. So that's kind of, you know, where we are in the stage now. We're at step one. So hopefully things can, you know, things can move and progress to a better place. But we appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call Like I See It Crossover with Disruption Now. Definitely. Again, check out both podcasts. Rob puts out content on Disruption Now. Tunde and I here on Call It Like I See a Podcast. And we appreciate everybody for joining us on this one. Until next time, I'm James Keys. [00:42:59] Speaker B: I'm Tunde Gon. [00:43:01] Speaker C: I'm Rob Richardson. [00:43:02] Speaker A: All right. We'll talk soon. There.