What’s Behind Tesla’s Alarming Fatality Rates?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: In this episode, we take a look at a recent analysis that says that Teslas are the deadliest cars on the road. Hello, welcome to the Car Like I See it podcast. I'm James Keys, and joining me today is a man, when it comes to the podcast game is an underground legend, Tunde Ogonlana Tunde. You ready to show the people the way we ball? [00:00:35] Speaker B: Of course, man. I didn't know I was a legend, but I guess that's what the kids say, right? [00:00:42] Speaker A: I guess so. So before we get started, if you enjoy the show, I ask that you subscribe and like the show on YouTube or your podcast platform, doing so really helps the show out. Now recording on May 27, 2025 and Tone Day, we recently saw some interesting comments, actually what got us kind of looking at this from former NBA player Gilbert Arenas and whose son, who was a young teenager, but basketball player and highly sought after recruit and so forth, was in an accident in a cybertruck not too long ago and was trapped in the car, had to go into an induced coma due to smoke inhalation and so forth. And so Arenas was talking about this, his son's accident on the all the Smoke podcast. And what he said specifically was that the crash or that the, the. The reason his son was trapped or had the accident was that the steering wheel went limp while he was, while his son was driving. And then, you know, he wasn't able. He wasn't prepared and also just wasn't able to get out once the accident happened. Now, his son Elijah ended up being. Okay, so the story doesn't end in tragedy. But you shared with me a piece, you know, that kind of built on this from Motor Trend, and it was discussing an analysis from IC Cars. That business, the Teslas are the deadliest cars on the road based on the metric of fatalities per mile driven now. So what's your reaction to seeing these stats? Well, one, you know, like whether you have something on the accident, but just also just how dangerous Tesla cars are. [00:02:14] Speaker B: Yeah, man. It's very interesting, James, and I want to say for the audience watching us on YouTube, I'm having a bad hair day, which is why I have the rare time I got to wear a hat, but I didn't shave my bald head. They don't know that you can see myself. [00:02:29] Speaker A: Your head? [00:02:30] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, no. Well, then get on the YouTube. Everyone's got access, but if you're going to get us streaming, you can get YouTube. But. But now to answer your question, James, and get into it. Yeah, I find it very Interesting, because you're right, we've been hearing chatter for a long time, for years about safety standards. First of all, let's go into safety standards in general. Right. We know that the auto industry has, you know, had a history of, of some of these issues with, with consumer safety on the road. But then Tesla as a company has had a little bit more scrutiny in recent years and they've tried some newer things that other car companies haven't, like driverless cars or sorry, self driving cars, not drivers. So with those new technologies, there's been accidents, there's been fatalities. And then to your point about what's happened to Mr. Arenas, his son, I know personally of people here in South Florida, unfortunately, that lost a teenage son due to a Tesla hitting a tree, catching fire. And unfortunately the young man was stuck in the car and burned to death. And like you said, Mr. Arenas, his son ended up in a coma due to smoke inhalation. So even though he survived, you know, he was probably right there at the edge or if had it been a few more minutes, maybe he might not have. [00:03:44] Speaker A: So to me, he got me just to. Yeah, he's okay, he's made a full recovery. [00:03:49] Speaker B: But yeah, yeah, but it's, it got me curious as to, well, what's going on with Tesla. Why do they have a track record which is double the average, like you said, I re learned in that Motor Trend article that, that they have, they, they have a double their record of fatalism and just put it this way, double the national average for a car company. And so that just got me curious. [00:04:14] Speaker A: Miles driven, that's not like pretty, it sounds like a pretty fair metric. Like per miles driven, they have twice as many fatality accidents as the average than normal. [00:04:23] Speaker B: Yeah. And so it just got me curious and they're looking into it and I guess that's the basis of our conversation. Yeah, yeah. What is going on here? [00:04:31] Speaker A: Yeah, there's the safety standards was kind of where my mind drifted to. Also though, I think that something else has happened just with the auto industry in general and Tesla's kind of on the forefront of this and that is like our cars, like depending on how old you are, cars are mechanical devices or they're mechanical devices with electronics. But what cars are now aren't necessarily, they're electronic devices with mechanical parts. It's kind of changed. And so what's going on? And so when this guy's talking and when Arenas is talking about the steering wheel went limp, I'm like, well, how does, what are we talking about? Like Is it the steering wheel connected to the. A shaft that's connected to something? And then all that, those rotating parts caused the wheel to turn and it's like, well, now, yes, it was when it was a mechanical device. Now the steering wheel, based on turning, is generating some combination of zeros and ones, some digital signal. That digital signal is being sent to some other electronic device that's receiving that and then deciding how much to adjust everything based on what's the signal. And so I think there's a fundamental change in that because we all have electronics, you know, we have, you know, cell phones and TVs and all that kind of stuff, that there's computers, all that. And we know, like, yeah, sometimes these things just kind of, kind of go crazy a little bit. But for us, you know, when it's like that, it's okay, let me turn it off, turn it back on, and then everything will usually be okay. And so, like, if my car is like that as well, well, what happens If I'm going 70 miles down, down the road and then some kind of thing like, I just need to turn it off, turn it back on, but I'm in the middle of driving, you know. So the idea that the cars have changed and we may just not be conscious of that, like, we probably need more regulation, more regulators looking at, okay, well, hold up. When you start changing the things that make this thing move and maneuver and those become digital, digitized, then in terms of how it's operating and not just responding to a mechanical action, what more risk are we introducing there? And so, and again, Tesla's been on the forefront of this stuff in terms of really pushing the envelope. Of what? Of the departure from more mechanic, relying on more mechanical stuff. It makes it smoother, it makes it, you know, all that kind of stuff, but it introduces a level of risk and that there's something happening there where Tesla is such an outlier from the norm. You know, like, it's twice as many fatalities per. And it's. They think it's 5.6 fatalities, fatality accidents per billion miles driven. So it's still, it's still relatively small, you know, but the average being 2.8 is like, well, why is it that much different? You know, So I, Yeah, I think at minimum, it's something we need to be looking at a little more closely. [00:07:12] Speaker B: Well, I think you bring up something profound, actually, and it's a great point regarding. [00:07:17] Speaker A: I appreciate. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Well, hey, don't let, don't let it get to your head too much. [00:07:24] Speaker A: See, that's that's how we do it. I always come to you at the very beginning, and then you get. You can throw them back at me. [00:07:28] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I give you one. A quarter. You know, I don't want to do it too much. You know, my. Call Diana and say, hey, we got to keep them. Keep them. Keep them even keel here. [00:07:38] Speaker A: But yeah, my wife will be happy to hear that. Over here. Bigger my head up. [00:07:45] Speaker B: But no, it's. The profound thing is, honestly, man, it's because I think you hit something on the head, which speaks to. I think a lot of the conversations we should be having in the greater society. We're not, but there's no time that stuff, man. [00:08:00] Speaker A: We got all this other. [00:08:01] Speaker B: Let me just say this. [00:08:02] Speaker A: Social issues. [00:08:03] Speaker B: No, but the way that you succinctly put it in terms of how we grew up with a vehicle, you're right. I mean, I think about before we were born, they were really all mechanical. The Model T, Ford. Right. But when you and I were kids in the 80s, 90s, I mean, the cars had obviously some computer components, but it was everything. [00:08:21] Speaker A: It was a mechanical device. [00:08:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, correct. Like you said, when you're, you know, move the steering wheel, actual mechanical parts from moving behind the scenes. Yeah. Now, like you said, the. The steering wheel movement, you know, hits sensors and those sensors based on microprocessors and all that, then tell the car what to do. And so that creates a much different environment. And yes, from a safety standard, then that changes that. When you get into a car accident, maybe you get locked into the car, if it's all based on electronics, unintentionally, doesn't mean that the car manufacturer is malicious. It's just the way that once. Once that mechanic. Sorry. The electronic connection to open the door is broken because of the accident or the fire, the door stays locked. And a normal human being can't push open a metal door that weighs a certain amount Versus Just real quick. [00:09:14] Speaker A: We've observed this actually years ago with the windows. Remember the windows being. When they were mechanical and you had. [00:09:21] Speaker B: To roll the thing, roll them down. [00:09:23] Speaker A: If your car went into the water, you could still roll the window down. But once they became. Once the. The windows operated on electrical signals and you just got it. It's easy to just pull the knob versus, you know, push. Pull the knob or whatever versus the. To have to rotate that thing. Then, yeah, your car goes in the water, you might not be able to open those windows. You probably can't. [00:09:40] Speaker B: On a whole different tangent, I think the rolling windows versus Electronics, what made our society soft? Because I could see my kids complaining today if I told them, hey, roll down the window. But they actually got to roll down the window. [00:09:49] Speaker A: So it's those type of issues that preoccupied with. [00:09:52] Speaker B: What do you mean? [00:09:52] Speaker A: There's not worry about the car safety. Like, it's that. It's wokeism. It's all those things you got to worry about. We don't have time to talk about car safety. [00:10:01] Speaker B: No, but that's why I thought like, that's why I wanted to highlight your comment of just being very good because I think we could extrapolate that to a lot of other parts of society where the infusion of technology into old industries or the way that we have been used to doing things and then the, the speed at which these changes have come about, which is really. Even though we know computers have been around for a long time and cars have been around for a long time. Like you're saying Tesla is the first attempt at making a computer that happens to drive on the street. So what do we do with that? To your point, from a regulatory standpoint, does this type of automobile fall under the same regulatory framework as a traditional automobile that's all just or primarily mechanical parts? Or do we need to have some new way to look at this now that we have the data that says that like you said this, this vehicle has double the fatalities of the national average of other vehicles. So does that mean we need to look at how a computer that has four wheels and drives humans around should be regulated versus an automobile that happens to have computer components in it? So I just thought that's why I said it's a profound. [00:11:13] Speaker A: Yeah, but just to be clear, we're talking about the actual. Not even a driverless car, but just you being a human driver, your interface and your interaction is all with parts that when you push a button, it doesn't. Or when you do something, it doesn't mechanically move something. It sends. It causes a signal to be sent. And so that level of connectivity, while adds a lot of convenience, it also creates additional risk. And so that, and then the other piece, I think that you know, is just like you touched on it was, is the regulatory piece. We know just the way that Musk operates publicly, that he's not that like regulation to him is not an opportunity to improve. You know, like that is like, okay, well then I need to pay off the regulators or I need to get into the government so I could then close the office of the regulators. And you know, like he, he does a lot of things to deal with regulation that don't involve changing and improving the product or making it safer. And so, you know, like, I think that's interesting. [00:12:08] Speaker B: I'll buy a social media platform to convince everyone that I'm a safe guy. [00:12:12] Speaker A: Another one. [00:12:13] Speaker B: Seriously, like, it's a point you make. Yeah, like, he does all this other stuff is like a kid that spends more time cheating on the test, figuring. [00:12:21] Speaker A: Out how to cheat. [00:12:22] Speaker B: Just studying shows you the mentality. Like, I'd rather just go around it than do the normal way of. Of, you know, so anyway. [00:12:27] Speaker A: Yeah, so. So something. So that's. That's a notable behavior when we had, like, look, if they were super safe, then, you know, it'd be like, okay, that's just a personality quirk. But since they're not, it's like, well, hold up. You know, that may be introducing additional risk, particularly where there may not need to be additional risk. But just because of this mentality of, oh, you're not gonna tell me what to do? Oh, I need, you know, I'm not gonna make this thing, you know, you say this is unacceptable risk, you know, we'll be the judge of that, or something like that. So I think that mentality is something to, you know, keep an eye on as well. [00:12:57] Speaker B: I've got a question for. Are you saying there's a connection between the world's richest man in the world who then, through a Supreme court ruling in 2012, is now allowed to give unlimited money into politicians who then make decisions on who may work in certain agencies that regulate them? [00:13:16] Speaker A: Hey, this guy, he put enough money up, he may be able to close entire agencies. [00:13:21] Speaker B: Yeah, so he put enough money in. So about $290 million bought him the ability to. To start a new agency called DOGE and then become the head of it so that he can then go and to. Directly into the agencies that were telling. [00:13:37] Speaker A: Him how to regulate? Yeah, everything. [00:13:39] Speaker B: That's interesting. [00:13:40] Speaker A: We're speaking hypothetically though, right? [00:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I know that would be a smart thing. Hey, look, honestly, that might not be how I do it, but that could be a smart way for the richest guy in the world to handle the fact that he's being scrutinized for making cars, among other things, that he's got, that have twice the death rate than the average car in this country. So that's very interesting. [00:14:00] Speaker A: Well, I mean, so I got a question then. You know, understanding that, like, again, you said, I don't like what's being said on me about this platform. Let me just buy the platform, and then I can control what's being said. Do you think that this is a story that's underblown? Like, when you sent this to me, you were like, man, I had no idea. So, I mean, obviously we're not over here monitoring vehicle safety reports, but just in general, do you think that it's something that's underblown that we have, you know, one of the more popular, you know, car companies is. Is twice as deadly as the national average in terms of fatalities per mile driven? [00:14:35] Speaker B: Well, say what you want to say about your time in your personal life. I spend a lot of time looking. [00:14:39] Speaker A: At these stuff, looking at motor. [00:14:41] Speaker B: Trying to be. Yeah. Motor Trend and trying to be the next Ralph. [00:14:43] Speaker A: Hey, fair enough. You're the one that. When I. When I. We talked about the Arenas thing, you're the one that sent me this. [00:14:48] Speaker B: So, you know, I'm joking. Then I woke up from my dream. But. But no. So, James, this is interesting, man, because in preparing for today and reading about all this other stuff, because, of course, I start going down my rabbit holes, one thing leads to another, and I'm looking at how Starlink is being, you know, another company owned by Mr. Musk is being pushed around the world right now, and certain geopolitical positions are being taken in order. It looks like it. What appears to me from the surface that. That it appears that our country is being led into geopolitical stances. Some may be similar, some may differ from our historical norms due to the desire of this one individual to have his company, Starlink, offer Internet services and all that. [00:15:37] Speaker A: Explain. What are you talking like you're speaking very coy. So give me an example of what you're speaking. [00:15:41] Speaker B: So, for example, it appears that the country of South Africa. There's a big desire for a gentleman who was born in South Africa to have his Starlink service bought by the country so that he can make the revenue and his business gets those contracts. South Africa has said, we don't want to do that. They got other relationships, other big tech firms that they're dealing with. Right. And instead of just accepting that or maybe becoming more competitive so we can compete with Google and Microsoft, whoever else got these contracts, he decides through his media platform to begin a propaganda campaign that white South Africans are being, you know, killed and all this stuff, and that there. There's a genocide, then that morphs into legislation, or not legislation, but actions by our government. When we have been told that immigration is bad and refugees are getting kicked out and all that, we've invited as A nation, Afrikaan refugees from South Africa, and given them benefits in farmland when we're hurting our own American farmers. So that's an example of how the country's actually changed its international geopolitical stance as it relates to. [00:16:53] Speaker A: You're saying that it is appears or alleged that this is being done in order to give Musk a better negotiating position? [00:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah, because here's the evidence. We know that just over a week ago, like you said, the date we're in late May here in 2025, the South African president was invited into the Oval Office of the United States. And what could many people would agree is an embarrassment in how that meeting was conducted by our administration. And magically, within a few days after that press conference in the Oval Office, the South African government is now reconsidering their contract with starlink. So it appears, without, obviously, like I said, from the surface, it appears that as a bullying tactic, that the richest man in the world is bullying not only people within the US Government with the Doge Agency and his role in it, or what it's been, but he's using that power and that leverage to get government officials, primarily, in this case, we're talking about the President United States, to behave away on the world stage that we've never seen in American history before. [00:18:04] Speaker A: So he's basically made the US Government, or at least parts of it, a pawn in his game to go around kind of the official ways of doing things or something like that. So. [00:18:13] Speaker B: Well, this is what we were warned about. Money and power, right? [00:18:17] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say. Yeah, like, that's. It sounds like somebody using power and money and influence to go about things a certain way. And so the question being, would it be possible that he could be doing that with Tesla as well, to bring it back to the point here? Like, would it be possible that when regulators are bringing up stuff about the company, he's either getting them fired or he's closing down an agency or something like that, or that he saw that that was an opportunity to do that. We don't necessarily know for sure, but again, there is a tendency here that we can't ignore when there's a connection that goes into the fact that when there's this. These numbers that suggest that these cars are very dangerous. [00:18:58] Speaker B: I actually put this. James. But hold on, because there was a Senate study already done this year, I'm just going to say 1.19 billion in potential liability as a result of Tesla's allegedly false or misleading statement about its autopilot and full Service driving features. That was one of these investigations he shut down as it relates to Doge. So, yes, I just want to say for the audience, there's a direct correlation. [00:19:24] Speaker A: It was a windy road. But I mean, the point being that we see he gets his hands in the government, the people that would be protecting us from a car company having such an outlier fatality rate, and he gets his fingers into there and he starts doing everything but for, you know, making the situation better from a safety standpoint, but actually just manipulating the same. [00:19:44] Speaker B: Things with SpaceX Neuralink, you know, the one with. [00:19:47] Speaker A: Yeah, the neural link. [00:19:48] Speaker B: We've heard reports about that 280 million in potential liability from Neuralink's alleged false or misleading statements about his potential risks and many more. So here's a guy that wants to put microchips in people's heads. [00:19:58] Speaker A: Yeah, he's. [00:19:59] Speaker B: He's lying about the, I guess the research and all that. And then, you know, when the government. To protect us as citizens because we're the ones he wants to put the chips and the heads on. Right. And sell all this to us. When they say, hey, man, you know, you're not doing it right, that you're hurting people or animals or whatever they're doing, and define them now he gets to go on and break up that, that regulatory body and he gets to make it go away. [00:20:24] Speaker A: So, yeah, it sounds a lot like Bond villain stuff, man. [00:20:29] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, look, you know, what I thought of, James, honestly, is that this country was founded by the Founding Fathers from a government standpoint as a way to make sure we don't have centralized power like King George. Right. To diffuse this kind of power in the center. Then 140 years later, by the 1930s and the new Deal, they had done it to private capital, like trying to stop what happened in the Gilded Age, that, you know, guys like JP Morgan, yeah. Can't be wealthy enough to lend a US treasury gold just because he feels like it. Right. And all these guys that were. Yeah, these guys became more powerful than nation states. And so what happens is the first 140 years of our country was about how to break that kind of stranglehold between capital, like power through money, and like leading people, like leading a big country like this. And it seems like in the last 50 years or so, those guardrails have been dismantled and we are here. [00:21:29] Speaker A: He's put it back together again, basically. Yeah. [00:21:31] Speaker B: Like literally the robber barons, like. Yeah, I've thought about it, James. We grew up with stories about, like, Ebenezer Scrooge and you know, the Grinch and those stories came from the 1800s when guys like this were controlling, you know. [00:21:44] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, I think that definitely for something like this, whether the story is underplayed, I would, I would think yes it is just because I mean this is information I would want readily available if I'm looking to buy a car. One of the things I would put in the, and throw it out there though, which was interesting to me as well, is that so. You know, Motor Trend has this, this report on this analysis by ic cars or ic cars.com but I see cars. You know, part of what they say in there is that actually they think and I don't know, again I'm going to take their words at face value and we can parse them out if we want. But they said that it's actually the characteristics of the drivers that drive these rates more than anything. There's a physics aspect. Smaller cars are going to be, you know, generally speaking more prone to act when it's in accidents, more prone to have fatalities. You know, things like that. Sports cars tend to indicate more risky behavior. But they said in particular, like we don't think this is a small or large car issue, you know, but they did think, think that the, the drivers of the car. So I also wonder, I mean it is there a in, in built into this, Is there a early adopter kind of effect? Like okay, what are the kind of, what's the kind of person that, that drives a Tesla? You know, it's a new car brand, hadn't been around, doesn't have a long track record, but they're trying to do something, you know, that is different or whatever and that's like an early adopter kind of thing. And early adopters, maybe, maybe what we're seeing here also, you know, in addition to like, like steering wheels going limp so it's not to let the company off the hook, but steering wheels going limp or whatever other you know, with these potential electrical malfunctions that could or electronics, you know, malfunctions with electronics, but just kind of maybe early adopters are more risk takers, you know. And so in addition to the cars maybe not being up to the up to snuff safety wise, which you know, again I'm not in here inspecting, I rely on regulate regulators for stuff like that. I wonder if there's a Tesla driver thing, early adopter or some other characteristic that may be more prevalent in drivers of Tesla or not specifically. I wondered that because this piece specifically says which will happen in the show notes that the drivers matter in terms like this. And so maybe it's not as broad of a slice of the public, but more of a type or a part of the public that is, you know, that's more risk tolerant. [00:24:08] Speaker B: That's a fair, that's a fair assessment. You're. You're a fair minded guy. Given, given Mr. Musk, you know, break. [00:24:15] Speaker A: Giving him a pass, man. Oh my God, what am I doing here? [00:24:19] Speaker B: I got no argument, which, I mean, look, more study the fact that. [00:24:23] Speaker A: Well, no, what they said specifically was that that fatality rates at a brand level is a driver behavior rather than vehicle size or design. And so that's, you know, and again, and I don't know if they're carrying water for Musk because they don't have a lawsuit, you know, because again, we don't know he does that. You know, he'll sue these people. And it's like, well, the numbers are the numbers, man. But it's like, oh, they throw that in there in case they get sued or something like that. Just because when you have a lot of money, then you can sue people a lot of times just to make them spend a lot of money on something because you got more money than they do. So you can. It hurts you less than it hurts them. So who knows? [00:24:54] Speaker B: But like suing people who don't advertise you, you remember that? [00:24:57] Speaker A: Yeah, we remember. Yeah, you're on advertising with me, so I'm going to sue you. And it's like, oh my God, but. [00:25:02] Speaker B: I'm all about freedom, aren't I? You got to love it. The freedom to be a Nazi and do Zeke House without any repercussions with. [00:25:11] Speaker A: You still giving me money. [00:25:13] Speaker B: Yeah. No, that's interesting. So I get to be a Nazi, but when you say you don't like it, I'm the victim. Yeah, that's a very interesting position to take. [00:25:22] Speaker A: So, man, that's, that's the way. That's the way some people operate, man. [00:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not sure where we go with this. [00:25:30] Speaker A: I think. Well, I mean, we go right. Did you have any final comments before we close this up? [00:25:34] Speaker B: I think that's it. [00:25:34] Speaker A: I mean, that's it. [00:25:35] Speaker B: I mean, I guess I could say some Nazi stuff and act like I'm a victim, but I won't. [00:25:40] Speaker A: I prefer you not do that. Do that. [00:25:41] Speaker B: Yeah, me too. I prefer I don't do that some other time. Yeah, but no, I mean do it. How about that? [00:25:47] Speaker A: Hey, there we go. There we go. But I Think the, the overriding point, you know, and again, with any, like the world is complex, you know, so with anything, the idea that it's not all, with any occurrence or situation, the idea that it's not all one thing doesn't necessarily mean that whatever the major contributing factor is, you shouldn't look at, you shouldn't address. So I think there is something that probably needs more scrutiny when it comes to what's happening with Teslas. I mean, we can't put that all on driver behavior. That's pretty, you know, again, even if you can find some, some characteristic among all the driver drivers or, or a tendency, so to speak, twice the norm is, you know, like that. That's a lot. And this is. We're talking life and death here. [00:26:30] Speaker B: So I got a joke. This is why eugenics is coming back, man. Because they're going to say, no, it was those drivers who were inferior mentally that were not able to drive the car properly. It's that slice, okay? That's the ones that. This is where the misdirection is coming, brother. [00:26:44] Speaker A: People that bought his car, though. So I don't know that he's going to go that direction. [00:26:49] Speaker B: So I won't put it past it. [00:26:51] Speaker A: Yeah, no, you're right, you're right. [00:26:52] Speaker B: So remember the Zeke Hiles tell us eugenics is, you know, it's part of the playbook. [00:26:58] Speaker A: Well, yeah, but no. So ultimately though, you're looking at this and you take something away from it. Again, what you take from it, whether it's simple as you vote with your pocketbook and say, look, you know, like, well, this is the deadliest car brand. Maybe that's not the one I'm looking at. I find it one. One thing I do find interesting though, as I close this up though, is that him having the deadliest car brand did not hurt the momentum of the company, you know, like, because this is not, you know, like this study was done over years from like model years 2018 to 2022. So them being the deadliest car brand, you know, it's like, okay, yeah, they can still have this sterling reputation. As soon as this guy gets up and starts doing all this crazy stuff in the government, then it's like, oh yeah, let's boycott, let's do all this. So the. It's really about. And this is kind of this hero worship society we live in where it's like once people decided they didn't like the guy anymore, then. Then it's like all of these things that probably should have happened already start to happen. Whereas when they were liking the guy or the guy was cool to them, it was like, all right, yeah, we don't care if the cars, you know, people are dying in these cars, or. And if he's subverting regulation to allow or to make that keep happening. We rock with this guy, you know, so it's, it's really interesting to me how the things that did slow Tesla's momentum weren't related to the fact that apparently these things are the deadliest car in America based on these numbers. [00:28:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And James, I think that's a great point to finish on, which is therein lies the need to bully the press. Right? Because think about it. If you. The only way these things happen are through transparency. So you make a great point. The transparency of this stardom of Elon Musk in the last three, four months, meaning him publicly doing Zeke Heils and him behaving a certain way in public, is what led to people responding to not liking Tesla. But it wasn't due to the information that was real, like you're saying, that was being studied for years. Because what happens is, as bullies, like you said, by throwing out these lawsuits and all this stuff over the years and threatening advertisers like we saw last year and all that, he has put a chilling effect on the, on the desire, let's put it that way. Maybe not the ability, but the desire for the news media and others who we trust on as the public to give us some light and scrutinize these big companies. So it's, it's all, it's like the symbiotic environment where the money allows him to push everyone around. And you're right, we're lucky maybe that he was brought into the government so we could really see him be this kind of buffoon so that the public could distance. [00:29:25] Speaker A: Well, it's not just that. I think that it's both. You got to combine all that together because remember, it's not like we, we've talked about it many times. You know, it is fake news, supply driven or demand driven. And you end up coming back to the fact that there's a supply piece and a demand piece. But in this case, Elon Musk turning people off to him probably increased the salience for information like this. This information, the same story, it will get clicked on more now because people are already like, ah, man, I don't even know. I like that because so like while everybody's. Or while. So we got so many of these fanboys running around, this same story will Be like, you just scroll right through it. But once you start questioning that, then it's like, oh, well, maybe what is this thing about, about Tesla as being, you know, not that safe. So I think that some of that is, you know, just kind of like, you know, we did that book the Righteous Mind, and you know, it's just kind of like that kind of stuff where, you know, once our to pull from that book, once our elephants start leaning away from him, then we start noticing a lot more things that, you know, is like, oh, well, maybe, maybe this isn't good for my health, you know, type of thing. So. But we close this topic up for there. But it is interesting, I think our own society's reaction and what, you know, really gets us going and you know, and what doesn't, you know, so to speak. And then once we get going, obviously then it's easy to keep us going down that same road. So. But yeah, hopefully, you know, all things considered, that this type of, these type of revelations end up with Teslas becoming safer cars. You know, like, ultimately that's, that's the main goal for stuff like this, not just for him to close, you know, the department of this, monitoring this at the government. So. But yeah, I think we can wrap this topic from there. You'll have a call out for this week as well, so you can check that out as well. But until next time, I'm James Keys. [00:31:06] Speaker B: I am Tunde. [00:31:08] Speaker A: All right, subscribe to the podcast, rate it, review it, tell us what you think, think, send it to a friend and we'll talk soon. [00:31:36] Speaker B: Foreign. [00:31:48] Speaker A: For our call out this week, we consider whether the NBA is now unequivocally a young man's game, considering the way the game is played. And also just looking at who's flourishing in the NBA playoffs this year, where right now, the semifinals, the Eastern Conference finals, two teams, Western Conference finals, two teams. So the last four teams, the winners of these series, meet in the finals. We have Oklahoma City, we have Minnesota, we have Indiana, and we have New York. And notably, all of these teams are led by stars in their kind of early 20s or mid-20s and so forth, which is very different from the NBA that we've kind of grown up with. And we're accustomed to where it was the old veteran teams that usually had a leg up once you got to the playoffs, the younger teams always would do well in the regular season because that's more of that long 82 game grind. But once you got to the playoffs and you started playing team playing series play, these teams over and over again, it was the, it was those wily vets, good, you know, excellent players, you know, but like kind of, you've seen this, you know, archetype where it's like, you know, the young teams have to go through years of failure, failure, and build up their battle scars and so forth before they can really break through. And like, this was the story of Michael Jordan and the Detroit Pistons. Bad boys, they would beat him up for a couple of years and then they got a little older and then he was able to come through and, and do that. But again, he's in his late 20s, you know, by that time when he's finally breaking through there, you know, another one would have been, you know, LeBron James, you know, and then trying finally getting through the Detroit Pistons, you know, excuse LeBron James getting through the Boston Celtics with Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce and Ray Allen and so forth, where they had beat him up a couple of years, they beat him up so bad he left Cleveland, went to Miami, you know, so. But now we're not seeing that. You know, LeBron, he's one of the old guys still. He's out, you know, Steph Curry, he's out. Like these older guys now, the Celtics were around, but they got, you know, their main guy got hurt. But you know, nonetheless, there have been the old guards gotten shuffled out. So Tunde, you know, you're seeing, you know, the final four teams in the playoffs, you know, being relatively young and led by younger players. Do you buy the idea that. And we've seen this, we'll have some stuff in the show, notes on this that are breaking down numbers on it, but that the way the game is played now, the so called pace and space era, it makes it more just more of a young man's game. Like the older guys, even in the playoffs, older being like 30, you know, 32, those guys just can't hang anymore. [00:34:04] Speaker B: It's funny, at 47, you're about to. [00:34:07] Speaker A: Talk about those old 32 year old. [00:34:09] Speaker B: I'm like, yeah, like, damn, I remember 32. Give me some of that, give me some of that mojo back in my back and my knees, you know, so. But no, and also my hair, right? Which I wouldn't have to wear this hat if I was 32 right now. But no, it's interesting, James. Yeah, but, but it's interesting because if we think back to the NBA and all professional sports, let's say 50 years ago in the 1970s, the games were so much different because of our conditioning and you Know the kind of bioscience and research, how to condition the food we ate, all that kind of stuff. And, and even the training from young. [00:34:45] Speaker A: Age players are so much different in that. [00:34:47] Speaker B: Correct. The play, our bodies. And so what's interesting, James, is we have, we have, it's like this, this actually both sides of it in terms of old and young. Because you made a great point about LeBron James. Here's a guy who's, who will be 41 by the end of this year and who's on his 21st All NBA team. So we have this, this weird dynamic and like Steph Curry is now, you know, 37. Right. So he's 15, 16 years in the league. So you've got this weird dynamic where you've got guys that actually are playing much longer than not just playing. [00:35:17] Speaker A: Remember those two guys? Now those are two of the top ten players all time. But they're still the best players on their team too. It's not like, you know, they're. Well, you know, I guess LeBron and the Lakers have Luka now, but nonetheless like they are frontline players. It's not like they're bench six man or something like that. Like, no, I know guys are old and still very significant, but go ahead. [00:35:34] Speaker B: I remember when Dikemi Mutombo in the early 2000 I think was like the oldest player. And then Kareem in the late 80s was played till about 38, 39. And, and that was like, wow. Like to have one guy at 39 or 40 in the league was amazing back then. And in the recent years I remember well, but I remember you. Donis Haslam, I think retired at 44, Vince Carter at 43 or 44. So I'm just saying that yeah, they weren't the same at the end of their careers. They're beginning. But there's, there's definitely a record of just guys playing till they're much older than historically. And like you're saying, but then we have this dynamic where the younger players are dominating much more later in the season. And I think that's a very interesting point you make because yes, I can assume that younger bodies are just going to have less damage than older bodies like Jason Tatum tearing his Achilles this year. So it's, it's an interesting point. And, and one of the articles I read, which I just found as, as a guy my age who grew up on the 90s basketball, said that. The article I read said that the 98 Bulls final, Steve Kerr was 33, Michael Jordan was 34, Scotty Pippen was 34, Dennis Rodman was 36, and the young guys in the team were Tony Kukoc and Luke Longley, who were 29. And they were saying that. Yeah, that like the Oklahoma City Thunder don't even have a guy over 30, I think on the team now and. [00:37:00] Speaker A: Who are not in the plays a lot, at least. [00:37:02] Speaker B: Yeah, and. Or maybe it was 32, but yeah, it was just interesting. And that's what I mean. It's just an interesting dynamic. But I think that. And then I'll pass it back for your thoughts because one of the things that I think, you know, there's a pro and con for that right now the game is much more exciting. Dunks, you know, are bigger, all that. But we also have the issue that I feel like the maturity of the game and the knowledge and the mentality of players in their early to mid-30s allows us. For a fan like me that loves the art of basketball, like a great motion offense and kind of the, the intellectual side of the game, I think we miss out on that with younger players because naturally they're just less, you know, they're just less knowledgeable about the game. [00:37:48] Speaker A: I mean, I don't, I think that if you're talking individual skill, maybe, but I think that the, the sophistication of the game is much higher than it was then. So if you're looking for sophistication, then there's actually much more of that now the way the game is played. And that's like there's two parts of this they call it then. Steve Kerr actually was interviewed for one of the piece we're going to put in there because he played at this time. And then he also is coaching now, so he's seeing it, you know, very up close and he talks about how much more movement is involved in basketball than there used to be and you know, the style, the strategies that are happening and oh, just to close the, close the loop. The Bulls that you were referencing, their average age was 32. And Oklahoma City doesn't have who's the favorite to win it all. They don't even have a 32 year old on the team at all. So that kind of shows you the difference in that. But the, the pace and space thing, what, what happened in basketball. And I think the subtlety of this actually is it's probably not discussed enough by the people who are paid to talk about the NBA because it's pretty interesting when you actually, when you know what's happening and you can see it happening, but Basically, the NBA has been. The floor has been spread out a lot. And so now a lot of times you'll have five players on the floor that can shoot. So, okay, you're not. They're not just hanging around down in the paint. They're all spread out. But what that means is, is that, okay, you got guys driving to the basket and all this other stuff. They. All these guys are spread out. So people have to come in from guarding their man that are spread. Men that are spread out come in, try to help on. Help defense. And then the goal a lot of times is then to kick it back out to these guys. So the defenders are running back and forth all game, basically. And any one of them, if they're not fast enough or don't move quick enough, their guys shooting an open 3 or doing a pump fake and going to the basket. And so they're. Kerr talks about this. And then the numbers show this. The players are. Have to run around a lot more than they used to, which that would be something that would move this towards more of a younger man's game. If, if defense now requires not just, oh, my guy's gonna sit on the block, I'm gonna stand on the block, we're just both gonna wait here and see if he gets the ball or not. That's much less demanding, you know. And so, yeah, when you're 34, 35, 36, you know, like that. That style of game, you can. You can play. And so I think that the way the game. And there's pace and there's space, pace part being there's just on average 9 or 10 more possessions per game where you're doing all this back and forth and everything like that running. So I think that definitely the way the game goes, but I think the subtleties of these are not discussed. They're not talked about. And so as a result of that, people look, oh, it's just simple. It's just guys doing this, guys doing that. And it's like, it's because, you know, the NFL does a really good job of this, of explaining during broadcast what's happening, like, why did this player, you know, drop back and this other guy went forward and everything like that with the NBA. And then I know LeBron commented on this recently, the guys who were in great position to explain all this stuff to us. A lot of times the older players, they're just complaining about the game now, you know, and so I think that. [00:40:42] Speaker B: So much because they're old, because they're old people, that's what we do, right? Damn kids. Get off my damn lawn. You know, with your music. You don't know what music is. I know what music is. You know, like, that's how sold people, bro. Like, I know what basketball is. You don't know what basketball. [00:40:58] Speaker A: Basketball was better when I was there, you know? Yeah, that's great. [00:41:02] Speaker B: I was young back then. That's why. [00:41:04] Speaker A: When it was cool. So. No, but I mean, generate. [00:41:08] Speaker B: Hey, that's. It's funny. But. But sorry, man. Go ahead. [00:41:12] Speaker A: No, please. I was just gonna. [00:41:14] Speaker B: No, because I wanted. I wanted to. You make a great point. So again, just like I did in part one, I gotta kiss your butt. So tell Dion. I'm sorry. [00:41:23] Speaker A: I'm actually just trying to. [00:41:24] Speaker B: One of those days today. [00:41:25] Speaker A: But I'm trying to emphasize key points that in this piece that we'll have in the show, notes that I thought did a good job showing us the numbers, you know, and again, because I'm not gonna quote. [00:41:32] Speaker B: No. So that's where I'm going with it. Because I'm a basketball guy. I'm not a football guy. Yeah, I like football, but I don't, like, pay attention to it. To know who the best teams and the players are. And I know the rules, but I don't know all the nuances. And I. You're right. I love watching football on tv. It's the only sport I like watching more on TV than I actually like watching live because of the way they break it all down and you got the little lines and all that. And I'm thinking, like, oh, okay, this is cool. I can not follow the NFL, but I can jump into a game and really feel immersed in and kind of. [00:42:04] Speaker A: Get invested in what's happening, you know? And then they're explaining it the whole time. And, yeah, they got. They do a good job putting stuff on the screen and all that. So, yeah, I feel like they got that down pretty well. [00:42:14] Speaker B: Yeah. And the NBA, I would say, is more like kind of cliquish. And you got to kind of know what's going on. As a fan, like, I stopped paying attention to the NBA after a few of my friends that played retired. Just because. I don't know why, but I just stopped watching. So now when I jump back in, I feel like I'm coming in from out in the cold. Like, oh, I don't. These all guys look like kids. Like, you know, the only guy I noticed, like, LeBron and Steph and KD and James Harden, because of the. [00:42:39] Speaker A: Those are the old, old guys. [00:42:40] Speaker B: Yeah. I know, I'm like, damn. And they're still younger than me, but they look all this. So the. But to talk about. That's why I wanted to say that, you know, you're bringing up an interesting point because I'm looking at some of the stats I'll cite here just for the audience back in. In the 1998 playoffs, the game was played at the snails pace, just 85 possessions per 48 minutes, where they're saying today's game has 95 possessions per 40 minutes. So that's 10 more possessions right there. Explains a bit, right, how the three point shot has broadened the game. And then the idea of. Here's an interesting one. It's not just the frenetic pace of today's game. It's the expanding dimensions of bodily activity and psychological attention. [00:43:23] Speaker A: That's what I was talking about as far as how the offenses intentionally spread you out and then attack at various places to make you have to run back in and run. And you got to pay attention. If you're not paying attention, if you're just out there spaced out on your man and a guy drives in and you're supposed to be the guy that goes, help. And that's a layup, then everybody's looking at you like, why didn't you come help? So you gotta be, no. [00:43:42] Speaker B: So I can tell you it's interesting because, you know, I mean, the audience can't see me. I'm six foot four. But my grandfather was seven foot two. So everybody thought I was gonna be huge or bigger, let's say that way. Because I was this tall since I was 15. So I grew early and then I stopped. So I used to play in the post when I was in high school and all that. And then I kind of became like a Charles Barkley type when I got to college. Cause I was shorter, but I knew how to play inside and all that stuff. And. And you're right, when he said the psychological attention in this article, it made me think of. Because I was like, yeah, back when I played in the post, I only had to worry about like you're saying, the guy on the block. Yeah, once. Once guys, big guys, 6, 10, 7ft, started being able to go out on the wings and shoot at least for big men in terms of. In the NBA, that had to defend. It created a whole different psychological dynamic which then creates for everyone. Because the point guards also got to worry about these big seven footers out on the wings and running around. [00:44:38] Speaker A: Yeah. And it changed the kind of player they can do that kind of stuff, too. Especially the bigs. [00:44:41] Speaker B: Correct. So that's where we go back. And I'll say, like a difference. I could say we're talking now. Let's just compare that 1998 Bulls team to maybe the NBA team today. Like, I think the guards could hang today. The Jordans, the Pippins, the. What do you call it, Ron Harper, even a Steve Kerr type. Right. Cause if he can just be on the block shooting threes, he'd be great today. Or even a mobile big. [00:45:03] Speaker A: A mobile big like Dennis Rodman. Like, you're like, that's that kind of guy, you know, you can move. He can do all this stuff. [00:45:08] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So he. He'd be able to hang today. But I think the bigger players like the Luke Longleys or maybe the Bill Cartwrights and Will Purdue's of that era would have had a much tougher time because they would have been having to guard guys like Giannis, Wimba Yana and even guys like Joel Embiid, maybe that aren't as gifted as. As. As Giannis and Wimba Yana on the wing. [00:45:29] Speaker A: Between that, though, just real quick, the Embiid would. Would have been much easier for them to guard because he's still kind of in. Yo, Jokic. And again, these guys are excellent. They still get their points, but those guys still kind of, you know, like, they're not spacing you out, so to speak. The hard guys to guard would be the guys that, you know, Giannis being, he's an anomaly, but like Luke Longley having to stand and guard somebody in the corner so they don't get an open shot, and then having to help at the rim. Also, he just wasn't built for that, you know, like that kind of movement. It's running back and forth. And so, yeah, I mean, it's to me. But again, this. Because this isn't talked about. I got you. Because this isn't talked about. It's just hard to think about it. You don't think about it until it's brought in front of you. [00:46:09] Speaker B: Yeah. And I was gonna say it also brings back the reality of, like, that's why I like that term, that psychological thing. Because think about a guy like Luke Longley only had to worry about one thing. Now he's got to worry about things in. In the version of Luke Longley today, if we can say that. So another one that they bring up is players are putting about 9% more mileage on the court per 48 minutes compared to a decade ago. [00:46:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:46:30] Speaker B: So about the 90s compared to just 2015. I thought, wow. So again, so I'll say this is a fan, right? That's why I said your analogy to NFL explaining this stuff better is very good. Because I wouldn't have like, when I see Steve Kerr saying, oh, we should just make the season, maybe consider making the season shorter, part of me is like, man, you're just being soft. Why? You know all that now? When I see a stat like this, it's like, okay, well, that could make sense because if you're putting 9% more mileage on your body per 48 minutes per game at 82 games, that adds up. [00:47:05] Speaker A: Well. But. And remember that this isn't that type of distance on a track like this is that much more. You're covering that much more ground in two and three step increments, like all these cuts back and forth and stuff, and you're going that much more distance. [00:47:21] Speaker B: Anybody, let's say over 30, that's not really in shape, that's tried to play a game of pickup ball. You know that the basketball is a whole different workout because you're sore for about five days. [00:47:31] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:31] Speaker B: All that stuff playing defense, all these muscles in your hips you don't use. Yeah. So it's, it's. That's what I'm saying, James, is that you're right. If, if the league could do better in its regular broadcast of really starting to bring these stats to light because. And then maybe football was forced to do it because of things like the concussions and CTE and just, you know, they just had to start talking complicated. [00:47:55] Speaker A: Like, yeah, I played football, I understand football, but most people don't. It's just not something you like. Everybody's played basketball, you know, like, and just so I think that basketball feels more relatable, but then they've started doing all this different stuff over the last 20 years. That is not percept. It's not. I don't think you can perceive it unless you know it's happening. You don't really notice that it's different than it was in 1995. So, I mean, I. [00:48:19] Speaker B: Like what, James? Like illegal defense or zone or things like that? [00:48:22] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:48:22] Speaker B: Okay. [00:48:23] Speaker A: But what I was going to say, like, now that you can play zone and now that you can, like I talk about that when people talk about the, like LeBron James, Michael Jordan, which I'm not going to get into that. But just the idea of the way defenses are played now, they play different sports, you know, like Michael Jordan, they. You couldn't Play zone there. You know, LeBron, you could, you can. So LeBron beats his man and there's another guy and then there's another guy and, and Jordan, that wasn't the case. There would be help and then, but also Jordan, they would drop an elbow on him when he went to the paint. So, you know, now they don't necessarily have that. So I mean, I think that these subtleties, but so back to the point then. So with all of these, that these are all reasons why we might be seeing younger teams get better or you know, start having the success faster, you know, so do you think we're at a point like is this something, is this sticky or are we seeing kind of a year anomaly here where it's just kind of, you know, maybe some ill timed injuries or something like that, but we'll be back to teams with a bunch of 30 year olds, you know, back on top next year. [00:49:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I, I would say this, it's probably too early to tell. You probably need to see a bit of more of a trend. Like if four or five years from now we're sitting here and at the average teams that are making, you know, the conference finals all average, you know, 26, 27 years of age. Yeah, you know, we, we would say, yeah, this must be because that's my argument regarding Steve Kerr's point. Like, I would have looked at it as Steve Kerr being soft saying we can't have 82 game or we should rethink it. Now I'm thinking, nah. Yeah, actually if, if the nature of the game has changed the way that it puts pressure on the human body, then we need to look at saying if we want the game to still be both competitive and entertainment. [00:49:58] Speaker A: This is curse talking about this from a television like you guys, you want these guys to be good on tv, make sure that their bodies are prepared. [00:50:05] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying is, is that, is that, is that to have good guys still be able to play good 10, 12 year careers. Remember that helps the league too, having these stars. You know, you don't want stars fizzling out after two, three years. Yeah. And so, and so that all helps with the brand and the commercialization. So I, it's, it's kind of like just when they changed football helmets. Right. I'm sure at some point guys were hitting each other in the 1930s and they were built a certain way, but by the 1970s and 80s, guys lifting weights, guys on, you know, whether you call it steroids or other things that enhance your, your Your physical ability, you had to change the way the helmets and the pads were, right? [00:50:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:40] Speaker B: And I just think this might be the same conversation in basketball, might be finally at that point of maturity where the. The physical nature of the way humans are built and because of food and medical science and all that kind of stuff might cause us and. And the intensity of the game and. [00:50:56] Speaker A: The things in the way this changes. [00:50:57] Speaker B: In the way some of the changes, you know, defenses and all that just may force us to look at. And I appreciate seeing this stuff because before I was thinking all these young guys just soft and all this. Now I was like, no, you know, there could be some here that. That their bodies are just being beat up. [00:51:12] Speaker A: Yeah, they're doing something different here. And I think that I would agree with you that it's too early to tell because, like you, we could have made this argument in 1980 when Michael Jordan, or, excuse me, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird come in and they start playing for championships right away. And it's like, well, these guys are fresh out of cotton now. They were a little older, 23, 24, fresh out of college. But we might just be at the beginning of a super generation. You know, like, these guys are going to dominate. These guys will be 30, still dominating, or, you know, maybe we're seeing something different. So I'm. It'll be interesting to see, you know, whether, you know, again, Oklahoma City is just about to be some dynasty. And then women, Yama in San Antonio, they're about to, like. So we're going to find out. But it's definitely. You can definitely see these pressures and how they would add up on people that get older and how younger people will be better adapted to it. So I think that's something, you know, like the league can. Can. They can consider how they want to deal with that stuff over the long term, but it does make it, I think, more exciting in the short term, as long as, again, you kind of see what's going on here with all that. So. [00:52:06] Speaker B: But yeah, I will say this. Whatever happens with all that, I'm going to predict that I'll still be an older guy who's cranky and shaking my face at these young people. [00:52:16] Speaker A: Old people will still. The older, older players will still shake their head at the cloud, shake their hand at the clouds, no matter. That's. I think if we're making a prediction business, that's the safest one you can make. [00:52:26] Speaker B: Now. [00:52:26] Speaker A: I think you're on your own solid ground there. So. [00:52:28] Speaker B: And Michael Jordan's the goat that'll be. I'm going to leave with that. So now we got you. [00:52:33] Speaker A: You are the third one to say anything. Why would you say that at the end where you're like, yo, I, I gotta get, I gotta get off man, I got. Yeah, cuz, I gotta go throwing that grenade in there. So. So we'll have that debate another day. So. But no, we appreciate Ro for joining us on this call out call like I see a podcast. I'm James Keys. I'm Tunde Wana and we'll talk to you.