Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
This week we consider whether the NBA is now unequivocally a young man's game, considering the way the game is played. And also just looking at who's flourishing in the NBA playoffs this year, where right now, the semifinals, the Eastern Conference finals, two teams, Western Conference finals, two teams. So the last four teams, the winners of these series, meet in the finals. We have Oklahoma City, we have Minnesota, we have Indiana, and we have New York. And notably, all of these teams are led by stars in their kind of early 20s or mid-20s and so forth, which is very different from the NBA that we've kind of grown up with. And we're accustomed to where it was the old veteran teams that usually had a leg up once you got to the playoffs. The younger teams always would do well in the regular season because that's more of that long 82 game grind. But once you got to the playoffs and you started playing team, playing series play these teams over and over again, it was the, it was those Wy vets, good, you know, excellent players, you know, but like kind of, you've seen this, you know, archetype where it's like, you know, the young teams have to go through years of failure, failure, and build up their battle scars and so forth before they can really break through. And like, this was the story of Michael Jordan and the Detroit Pistons, bad boys. They would beat him up for a couple of years and then they got a little older and then he was able to come through and do that. But again, he's in his late 20s by that time when he's finally breaking through there, you know, another one would have been, you know, LeBron James, you know, and then trying, finally getting through the Detroit Pistons, you know, or excuse me, LeBron James getting through the Boston Celtics with Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce and, and Ray Allen and so forth, where they had beat him up a couple of years, they beat him up so bad he left Cleveland, went to Miami, you know, so. But now we're not seeing that. You know, LeBron, he's one of the old guys still. He's out, you know, Steph Curry, he's out. Like the, the, these older guys now the Celtics were around, but they got, you know, their main guy got hurt. But you know, nonetheless, there have been the old guards gotten shuffled out.
So Tunde, you know, seeing, you know, the, the final four teams in the playoffs, you know, being relatively young and led by younger players, do you buy the idea that. And we've seen this, we'll have some stuff in the show, notes on this that are breaking down numbers on it. But that the way the game is played now, the so called pace and space era, it makes it more, just more of a young man's game. Like the older guys even in the playoffs don't have older being like 30, you know, 32. Those guys just can't hang anymore.
[00:02:19] Speaker B: It's funny, at 47 you're about to.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: Talk about those old 32 year old.
[00:02:25] Speaker B: I'm like, yeah, like damn, I remember 32. Give me some of that, give me some of that mojo back in my back and my knees, you know, so. But no, and also my hair, right. Which I wouldn't have to wear this hat if I was 32 right now.
But no. It's interesting, James.
Yeah, but, but it's interesting because if we think back to the NBA and all professional sports, let's say 50 years ago in the 1970s, the games were so much different because of our conditioning and you know, the kind of bioscience and research how to condition the food we ate, all that kind of stuff and, and even the training from young.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: Age players are so much different in that.
[00:03:03] Speaker B: Correct. The play, our bodies and so what's interesting James, is we have, we have, it's like this, this actually both sides of it in terms of old and young. Because you made a great point about LeBron James. Here's a guy who will be 41 by the end of this year and who's on his 21st All NBA team. So we have this, this weird dynamic. And like Steph Curry is Now, you know, 37, right. So he's 15, 16 years in the league. So you've got this weird dynamic where you've got guys that actually are playing much longer than.
[00:03:32] Speaker A: He's not just playing. Remember with those two guys now those are two of the top ten players all time. But they're still the best players on their team too. It's not like, you know, they're. Well, you know, I guess LeBron and the Lakers have Luka now, but nonetheless like they are football frontline players. It's not like they're bench six man or something like that. Like guys are old and still very significant, but go.
[00:03:49] Speaker B: I remember when Dimmy Mutombo in the early 2000s I think was like the oldest player. And then Kareem in the late 80s was played till about 38, 39 and. And that was like, wow. Like to have one guy at 39 or 40 in the league was amazing back then. And in the recent years I Remember.
Well, but I remember you. Donis Haslam, I think, retired at 44, the Vince Carter at 43 or 44. So I'm just saying that, yeah, they weren't the same at the end of their careers. They're beginning, but there's, there's definitely a record of just guys playing till they're much older than historically. And like you're saying, but then we have this dynamic where the younger players are dominating much more later in the season. And I think that's a very interesting point you make because, yes, I can assume that younger bodies are just going to have less damage than older bodies like Jason Tatum tearing his Achilles this year. So it's, it's an interesting point. And, and one of the articles I read, which I just found as, as a guy my age who grew up on the 90s basketball, said that. The article I read said that the 98 Bulls finals, Steve Kerr was 33, Michael Jordan was 34, Scotty Pippen was 34, Dennis Rodman was 36, and the young guys in the team were Tony Kukoc and Luke Longley, who were 29. And they were saying that, yeah, that like the Oklahoma City Thunder don't even have a guy over 30, I think, on the team now and who are not.
[00:05:16] Speaker A: Who plays a lot, at least.
[00:05:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And.
Or maybe it was 32, but yeah, it was just interesting. And that's what I mean. It's just an interesting dynamic. But I think that. And then I'll pass it back for your thoughts because one of the things that I think, you know, there's a pro and con for that right now, the game's much more exciting. Dunks, you know, are bigger, all that. But we also have the issue that I feel like the maturity of the game and the knowledge and the mentality of players in their early to mid-30s allows us, for a fan like me that loves the art of basketball, like a great motion offense and kind of the, the intellectual side of the game, I think we miss out on that with younger players because naturally they're just less, you know, they're just less knowledgeable about the game.
[00:06:04] Speaker A: I mean, I don't. I think that if you're talking individual skill, maybe, but I think that the, the sophistication of the game is much higher than it was then. So if you're looking for sophistication, then there's actually much more of that now, the way the game is played. And that's like, there's two parts of it they call it then Steve Kerr Actually was interviewed for one of the pieces we're going to put in there because he played at this time and then he also is coaching now. So he's seeing it, you know, very up close and he talks about how much more movement is involved in basketball than what there used to be. And you know, the, the style, the strategies that are happening and oh, just to close the, close the loop. The Bulls that you were referencing, their average age was 32. And Oklahoma City doesn't have who's the favorite to win it all. They don't even have a 32 year old on the team at all. So that kind of shows you the difference in that. But the pace and space thing, what happened in basketball and I think the subtlety of this actually is it's probably not discussed enough by the people who are paid to talk about the NBA because it's pretty interesting when you actually, when you know what's happening and you can see it happening. But basically the NBA has been, the floor has been spread out a lot. And so now a lot of times you'll have five players on the floor that can shoot. So, okay, you're not, they're not just hanging around down in the paint.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: They're.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: They're all spread out. But what that means is, is that, okay, you got guys driving to the basket and all this other stuff. They, all these guys are spread out. So people have to come in from guarding their man that are spread. Men that are spread out come in, try to help on, help defense. And then the goal a lot of times is then to kick it back out to these guys. So the defenders are running back and forth all game basically. And any one of them, if they're not fast enough or don't move quick enough, their guys shooting an open 3 or doing a pump fake and going to the basket. And so Coach Kerr talks about this and then the numbers show this. The players are. Have to run around a lot more than they used to. Which that would be something that would move this towards more of a younger man's game. If, if defense now requires not just, oh, my guy's gonna sit on the block, I'm gonna stand on the block. We're just both gonna wait here and see if he gets the ball or not. That's much less demanding, you know. And so yeah, when you're 34, 35, 36, you know, like that, that style of game, you can, you can play. And so I think that the way the game and there's pace and there's space, pace, part Being there's just on average, nine or ten more possessions per game where you're doing all this back and forth and everything like that, running. So I think that definitely the way the game goes, but I think the subtleties of these are not discussed. They're not talked about. And so as a result of that, people look. Oh, it's just simple. It's just guys doing this, guys doing that. And it's like. It's because, you know, the NFL does a really good job of this. Of explaining during broadcast what's happening. Like, why did this player, you know, drop back and this other guy went forward and everything like that with the NBA? And then, I know LeBron commented on this recently. The guys who were in great position to explain all this stuff to us. A lot of times, the older players, they're just complaining about the game now, you know, and so I think that so much.
[00:08:58] Speaker B: Because they're old. Because they're old people.
That's what we do, right? Damn kids. Get off my damn lawn. You know, with your music.
You don't know what music is. I know what music is. You know, like, that's how sold people, bro.
Like, I know what basketball is. You don't know what basketball.
[00:09:14] Speaker A: Basketball was better when I was there, you know? Yeah, that's a great.
[00:09:18] Speaker B: I was young back then. That's why.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: When it was cool.
So.
[00:09:22] Speaker B: No, but I mean, hey, that's. It's funny. But. But sorry, man. Go ahead.
[00:09:28] Speaker A: No, please. I was just gonna.
[00:09:29] Speaker B: No, because I wanted. I wanted to.
You make a great point. So again, just like I did in part one, I gotta kiss your butt. So tell Dion I'm sorry.
[00:09:39] Speaker A: I'm actually just trying to.
[00:09:40] Speaker B: One of those days today.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: But I'm trying to emphasize key points that in this piece that we'll have in the show, notes that I thought did a good job showing us the numbers, you know, and again, because I'm not gonna quote.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: So that's where I'm going with it. Because I'm a basketball guy. I'm not a football guy.
I like football, but I don't pay attention to it, to know who the best teams and the players are. And I know the rules, but I don't know all the nuances. And I. You're right. I love watching football on TV is the only sport I like watching more on TV than I actually like watching live because of the way they break it all down and you've got the little lines and all that. And I'm thinking like, oh, okay, this is cool. I Can not follow the NFL, but I can jump into a game and really feel immersed in and kind of.
[00:10:20] Speaker A: Get invested in what's happening. You know, they're explaining it the whole time. And yeah, they got, they do a good job putting stuff on the screen and all that.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: So yeah, I feel like, you know.
[00:10:28] Speaker A: They got that down pretty well.
[00:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And the NBA, I would say, is more like kind of clique. Ish. And you got to kind of know what's going on. As a fan, like, I stopped paying attention to the NBA after a few of my friends that played retired just because. I don't know why, but I just stopped watching. So now when I jump back in, I feel like I'm coming in from. From out in the cold. Like, oh, I don't. These all guys look like kids. Like, you know, the only guy I noticed, like LeBron and Steph and KD and James Harden because of the.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Those are the old, old guys.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I know. I'm like, yeah, they're still younger than me. But of. So the. But to talk about. That's why I wanted to say that, you know, you're bringing up an interesting point because I'm looking at some of the stats I'll cite here just for the audience.
Back in the 1998 playoffs, the game was played at a snails pace. Just 85 possessions per 48 minutes. Where they're saying, today's game has 95 possessions per 48 minutes. That's 10 more possessions right there. Explains a bit, right, how the three point shot has broadened the game. And then the idea of. Here's an interesting one. It's not just the frenetic pace of today's game. It's the expanding dimensions of bodily activity and psychological attention.
[00:11:39] Speaker A: And that's what I was talking about as far as how the offenses intentionally spread you out and then attack at various places to make you have to run back in and run. But you got to pay attention. If you're not paying attention, if you're just out there spaced out on your man and a guy drives in and. And you're supposed to be the guy that goes, help. And that's a layup. Then everybody's looking at you like, why didn't you come help? So you gotta be, no.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: So I can tell you it's interesting because, you know, I mean, the audience can't see me. I'm six foot four. But my grandfather was seven foot two. So everybody thought I was gonna be huge or bigger, let's say that way. Because I was this Tall since I was 15. So I grew early and then I stopped. So I used to play in the post when I was in high school and all that. And then I kind of became like a Charles Barkley type when I got to college. Cause I was shorter, but I knew how to play inside and that stuff. And, and you're right, when he said the psychological attention in this article, it made me think of. Because I was like, yeah. Back when I played in the post, I only had to worry about like you're saying the guy on the block.
[00:12:33] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:34] Speaker B: Once, once guys, big guys, 6, 10, 7ft started being able to go out on the wings and shoot, at least for big men in terms of, in the NBA, that had to defend. It created a whole different psychological dynamic which then creates for everyone. Because the point guards also got to worry about these big seven footers out on the wings and running around.
[00:12:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And it changed the kind of player that can do that kind of stuff too. Especially the bigs.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: Correct. So that's where we go back and I'll say like a difference. I could say we were talking now let's just compare that 1998 Bulls team to maybe the NBA team today. Like, I think the guards could hang today. The Jordans, the Pippins, the.
What do you call it, Ron Harper, even a Steve Kerr type. Right. Cause if he can just be on the block shooting threes, he'd be great today.
Even a mobile big.
[00:13:19] Speaker A: A mobile big like Dennis Rodman, like you're like, that's that kind of guy. You know, you can move. He can do all this stuff.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So he, he'd be able to hang today. But I think the bigger players like the Luke Longleys or maybe the Bill Cartwrights and Will Purdue's of that era would have had a much tougher time because they would have been having to guard guys like Giannis, Wimba, Yana and even guys like Joel Embiid maybe that aren't as gifted as, as, as Giannis and Wimbayan on the wing.
[00:13:45] Speaker A: Between that though, just real quick, the Embiid would, would have been much easier for them to guard because he's still kind of in Yo Jokic. And again, these guys are excellent. They still get their points. But those guys still kind of, you know, like they're not spacing you out, so to speak. The hard guys to guard would be the guys that, you know, Giannis being, he's an anomaly, but like Luke Longley having to stand and guard somebody in the corner so they don't get an open shot and then having to help at the rim also. Yeah, he just wasn't built for that, you know, like that kind of movement. It's running back and forth and so, yeah, I mean, it's to me. But again, this. Because this isn't talked about. I got you. But because this isn't talked about, it's just hard to think about it. You don't think about it until it's brought in front of you.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And I was gonna say it also brings back the reality of, like, that's why I like that term, that psychological thing. Because think about a guy like Luke Longley only had to worry about one thing. Now he's got to worry about things in, in the version of Luke Longley today, if we can say that. So another one that they bring up is players are putting about 9% more mileage on the court per 48 minutes compared to a decade ago.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:46] Speaker B: So about the 90s compared to just 2015. I thought, wow.
[00:14:50] Speaker A: So.
[00:14:51] Speaker B: And so I'll say this is a fan. Right. That's why I said your analogy to NFL explaining this stuff better is very good. Because I wouldn't have, like, when I see Steve Kerr saying, oh, we should just make the season, maybe consider making the season shorter, part of me is like, man, you just being soft. Right. You know all that. Now when I see a stat like this, it's like, okay, well, that could make sense because if you're putting 9% more mileage on your body per 48 minutes per game at 82 games, that adds up. Well. But.
[00:15:21] Speaker A: And remember that this isn't that type of distance on a track like this is that much more. You're covering that much more ground in two and three step increments, like run out here. That's what I was going to say. Like all these cuts back and forth and stuff, and you're going that much more distance.
[00:15:37] Speaker B: Anybody, let's say over 30, that's not really in shape, that's tried to play a game of pickup ball, you know that the basketball is a whole different workout. Because you're sore for about five days.
[00:15:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:47] Speaker B: All that, like you're saying playing defense, all these muscles in your hips you don't use. Yeah. So it's, it's. That's what I'm saying, James, is that you're right. If, if the league could do better in its regular broadcast of really starting to bring these stats to light because. And then maybe football was forced to do it because of things like the concussions and CTE and just, you know, they just had to start talking complicated.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: Like, yeah, I played football, I understand football, but most people don't. It's just not something you like. Everybody's played basketball, you know, like, and just so I think that basketball feels more relatable. But then they've started doing all this different stuff over the last 20 years. That is not percept. It's not. I don't think you can perceive it unless you know it's happening. You don't really notice that it's different than it was in 1995. So I mean, I think it's like.
[00:16:35] Speaker B: What James, like illegal defense or zone or things like that.
[00:16:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:16:38] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: But what I was going to say, like now that you can play zone and now that you can, like I talk about that when people talk about the, like LeBron James, Michael Jordan, which I'm not going to get into that, but just the idea of the way defenses are played now, they play different sports, you know, like Michael Jordan, they, you couldn't play zone there. You know, LeBron, you could, you can. So LeBron beats his man and there's another guy and then there's another guy and, and Jordan, that wasn't the case. There would be help and then. But also Jordan, they would drop an elbow on him when he went to the paint. So, you know, now they don't necessarily have that. So I mean, I think that these subtleties. But so back to the point then. So with all of these, that these are all reasons why we might be seeing younger teams get better or, you know, start having the success faster, you know, so do you think we're at a point like this is something, is this sticky or are we seeing kind of a year anomaly here where it's just kind of, you know, maybe some ill timed injuries or something like that, but we'll be back to teams with a bunch of 30 year olds, you know, back on top next year.
[00:17:32] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I would say this, it's probably too early to tell. You probably need to see a bit of, more of a trend. Like if four or five years from now we're sitting here and at the average team that are making, you know, the conference finals all average, you know, 26, 27 years of age. Yeah, you know, we, we would say, yeah, this must be because that's my argument regarding Steve Kerr's point. Like I would have looked at it as Steve Kerr being soft saying we can't have 82 games or we should rethink it. Now I'm thinking Now actually if, if the nature of the game has changed the way that it puts pressure on the human body, then we need to look at saying if we want the game to still be both competitive and entertaining.
[00:18:13] Speaker A: This is curse talking about this from a television like you guys, you want these guys to be good on tv, make sure that their bodies are, are prepared.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: That's what I'm saying is, is that, is that, is that to have good guys still be able to play good 10, 12 year careers. Remember that helps the league too, having these stars. You know, you don't want stars fizzling out after two, three years. Yeah. And so, and so that all helps with the brand and the commercialization. So I, it's, it's kind of like just when they changed football helmets. Right. I'm sure at some point guys were hitting each other in the 1930s and they were built a certain way, but by the 1970s and 80s, guys lifting weights, guys on, you know, whether you call it steroids or other things that enhance your, your, your physical ability, you had to change the way the helmets and the pads were, right?
[00:18:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: And I just think this might be the same conversation in basketball, might be finally at that point of maturity where the, the physical nature of the way humans are built and because of food and medical science and all that kind of stuff might cause us and, and the intensity of the game and the.
[00:19:12] Speaker A: Way this changes in the way some.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Of the changes, you know, defenses and all that just may force us to look at. And I appreciate seeing this stuff because before I was thinking all these young guys just soft and all this. Now it's like, no, you know, there could be some here that, that their bodies are just being feed up.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: Yeah, they're doing something different here. And I think that I would agree with you that it's too early to tell because like you, we could have made this argument in 1980 when Michael Jordan, or excuse me, Magic Johnson and Larry Bird come in and they start playing for championships right away. And it's like, well, these guys are fresh out of cotton now. They were a little older, 23, 24, fresh out of college. But we might just be at the beginning of a super generation. You know, like these guys are going to dominate. These guys will be 30, still dominating or you know, maybe we're seeing something different. So it'll be interesting to see, you know, whether, you know, again, Oklahoma City is just about to be some dynasty. And then women, Yama in San Antonio, they're about to like, so we're going to find out. But it's definitely, you can definitely see these pressures and how they would add up on people that get older and how younger people will be better adapted to it. So I think that's something, you know, like the league can, can. They can consider how they want to deal with that stuff over the long term, but it does make it, I think, more exciting in the short term, as long as, again, you kind of see what's going on here with all that.
[00:20:21] Speaker B: So, yeah, I will say this. Whatever happens with all that, I'm gonna predict that I'll still be an older guy who's cranky and shaking my face at these young people.
[00:20:32] Speaker A: Old people will still, the older, older players will still shake their head at the cloud, shake their hand at the clouds. No matter. That's. I think if we're making it in prediction business, that's the safest one you can make, man. I think you're on. You're on solid ground there.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: And Michael Jordan's the goat. That'll be. I'm gonna leave it with that. So now we gotta understand, you are the throw that no one can say anything.
[00:20:50] Speaker A: Why would you say that? At the end, you're like, yo, I gotta get. I gotta get off, man. I gotta go.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Cause I gotta go throwing that grenade in there.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: So we'll have that debate another day. So. But now we appreciate everybody for joining us on this call Out Call like I See it podcast. I'm James Keys.
[00:21:04] Speaker B: I'm Tumbe Ramana.
[00:21:06] Speaker A: And we'll talk to you soon.
