Episode Transcript
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Hello, welcome to Call It Like I See it, presented by Disruption Now, I'm James Keys, and in this episode of Call It Like I See it, we're going to take a look at what appears to be a trend of vaccine compulsion which seems to be picking up steam amongst employers in the US and we'll also look and contrast that with the vaccine hesitancy that has remained steady even as infections and death and hospitalizations and so forth have begun to pick up again.
We'll also discuss Simone Biles, arguably the greatest gymnast of our time, pulling out of several events at the Olympics, and really take a look at how the mental part of athletics is oftentimes overlooked.
Joining me today is a man who can show you how to keep the dice rolling when you're doing that thing. Tunde. Ogunlana Tunde. Are you ready for us to look at you now?
[00:01:13] Speaker B: Only if it's the snake eyes, brother.
[00:01:16] Speaker A: All right. All right.
Now we're recording this on August 2, 2021. And over the past few weeks, we've seen more and more employers attempting to compel their employees to get the COVID vaccine. COVID 19 vaccine, whether by making it very inconvenient as far as to come in or to do your job if you don't get it, or through outright mandates that just if you get it, you got to, if you're going to come in, you got to get it. Major companies such as Google, Facebook, Netflix, BlackRock, Morgan Stanley Sachs, all types of companies have announced outright mandates for their employees to be vaccinated before returning to work. And that represents one end of that spectrum. But it's a lot of people and it's a growing, it's a lot of companies. It's in a growing number.
And, you know, with that, the trend is picking up steam. And so we, we could see more employers, large employers, small employers follow suit in the coming weeks. So to get us going, Tunde, what are your thoughts on these, on the actual mandates that we see coming from employers for their employees to get the COVID 19 vaccine before returning to work?
[00:02:21] Speaker B: I think it's just directly my answer would be this is another phase in the arc of the pandemic time period, because just like I think most pandemics, this will play out over years. So the fact we're living through this, it feels like it's a lot longer and it's a lot more twists and turns. But we look in all the history books about things, whether it's the great plague or other kind of large health issues that We've had in various societies we see one date, a dash and another date.
And so we always think that it happened overnight. But you know, two, three, four years is a long time. So I feel like with this delta variant wave, the fact that we haven't reached yet herd immunity, which many believe would be able to put a bit of a dent in the spread of, or let's say the mutation of the virus, which then continues to let it spread and do harm.
I think that this is just a natural evolution that, and I would say this, this is maybe leadership of a different kind. Right.
We saw the, at the national level in 2020 and that's not just you know, government but also corporate kind of had a hands off approach. Laissez faire, you know, let's, let's, let's. I know that we shut down for a month or two, so I know that wasn't laissez faire. But I'm talking about after that period, the initial shock of it, you know, people generally were just okay, just wear a mask, all that kind of stuff. We're waiting for a vaccine and now that I think we have the vaccine and there seemed to have been some promise early on in the vaccine period a few months ago, before the delta variant hit. With the delta variant it's shown that with the lack of people that are vaccinated, at least at this percentage, that this virus isn't going away right now. So what I would say is this.
[00:04:08] Speaker A: Well, let me jump in real quick just cause you've mentioned the delta. What the delta variant is, is it's a mutation of COVID It's still COVID 19, but it's a mutation of it that has been shown to be much more contagious. And so it's easier to get infected with that if you're in a room with people. And the original variant would have. In fact if there's 10 people sitting around a table, two or three of them would have got infected. It's like eight or nine of the 10 would get infected now because of the delta variant. So it's much more infectious, much more contagious. And so go ahead.
[00:04:40] Speaker B: Yeah, no, and I appreciate that because I think later on in the show I do want to discuss the idea of science and the idea of trial and error and that we're always at a disadvantage when these kind of things are new to humanity because it takes time for it to play out, for medical science to understand it. Because enough people have to get sick and they have to be able to study that. So I know we'll get into that. But just to finish off my thought about the leadership side.
I'm looking at this at 30,000ft, neither positive nor negative. Meaning that at this point, I believe what corporate America is doing, the NFL, other organizations are saying, okay, now we see that there's definitely an economic impact here.
We don't want to go back to a point where people aren't going out. They're scared to go out. So forget about lockdowns and mandates and all the stuff that becomes political.
What happens is if this gets a lot worse and people don't get vaccinated, then a lot of people just won't go out anymore. And so it's going to have a negative.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: It's going to cost us money.
[00:05:34] Speaker B: Correct. It'll have a negative impact on the economy. And I think the NFL, especially the NFL, the sports leagues, I would say Disney World, any theme parks or movie theaters, they're probably dying to have everyone vaccinated because those are actually where everyone congregates for them to make money as businesses. I think the other companies like the Googles and the Microsofts and whoever, that's more of like we just want people in the office vaccinated is so that they can actually function as companies and not have to worry about kind of fits and starts in terms of how they're doing.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Losing a whole department for two weeks or something like that. No.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: Or maybe having somebody very influential, like a CEO or CFO infected by someone else that maybe, you know, or whatever. So I think that, yeah, it's just a different example of leadership, let's put it that way.
[00:06:24] Speaker A: I actually. And now I thought you, I wanted you to get to that economic point because I think that is kind of the driving force behind it as far as why companies would take it upon themselves to require their employees to get vaccinated. It's an economics thing. Availability, a lot of time is thought of to be the best ability being available.
And so if you want your employees to be productive for you, they have to be available first. And so I think that makes sense from that standpoint. From the standpoint of being a vaccine mandate. I actually don't think it's a big deal at all.
There are many mandates that you have to have to go workplaces. Like a lot of places you got to have a college degree to go workplaces, that's a mandate. And that costs a lot of money. That costs you $100,000 that you got to go borrow in order to work here. There Are mandates all like drug tests before you go, oh, that's a mandate. So corporations and companies, businesses put mandates on people all the time. As far as the conditions for work, this is one of them.
[00:07:23] Speaker B: Let me jump in real quick and just add this and then pass the baton back because I could see someone or see, I could hear someone listening to this and saying in their mind, yeah, well, drug tests or a college degree is not intrusive on my body. Like someone's not sticking me with a needle. I'm injecting something in there. And so I just want to add that one of the mandates we all went through, especially people like you and I that went to public school, is mumps, measles, rubella, tuberculosis, polio, tetanus, all these things we were already vaccinated with at a very early ages, you know, five, six years old in order to attend school. So I just wanted to add that in there.
[00:07:58] Speaker A: That, you know, mandate somebody sticking you with a needle is just, it is what it is. I mean, if somebody wants to come up with, try to distinguish it, they can, but that's not really a distinction. I mean, would you rather get a shot or take $120,000 in debt? You know, and so like all of those things are, it's all, I guess.
[00:08:15] Speaker B: It'S a free country. You can choose your pick your poison.
[00:08:18] Speaker A: Well, and that actually gets to my second point. What I think the uproar about is, I think that most people don't understand what free country means.
For whatever reason, a lot of people think freedom means free to make choices without consequence. And that's not the way it works. Freedom is the freedom to make a choice and that your consequence won't be some type of government taking away your ability to walk around taking away your actual freedom so you won't go to jail. If you start seeing vaccine mandates or you go to jail, then I will be saying, whoa, that's a non starter. We have to do whatever we can to make that not happen. But the ability to go work here or go work there, that's not a right. That's not your freedom to be able to do that. And so to speak. So there's a confusion as far as that goes where people like, I'll give the example of Colin Kaepernick where someone makes a stand on principle, that's freedom.
Now the issue though is that their employer or whoever they were doing, whoever was paying them doing business with said, you know what, because of that, we're not going to pay you anymore. We're not going to do business with you anymore. And so they made it. They, they, they exercised their freedom and they had to deal with a consequence of losing their way that they supported themselves there. Kaepernick couldn't play football anymore because nobody would hire him. And so that's freedom, though. That is freedom. It's not something that we're looking at. That's not something we hold high as an example of. That's great. You know, we're happy when this happens, but that is it. And so in the same way, with this vaccine hesitancy thing, if you were going to say, hey, I'm going to exercise my freedom to not get the vaccine, you won't go to jail, but you might not be able to do certain things. That's the way freedom works. And so to me, I think some of this comes down to just this misunderstanding people have as far as their bundle of rights. But then also, again, like I said, because it's a hot button issue, because we've been all riled up about it over time. As you said, people are getting vaccines for a long time. If somebody wanted to sneak something in on you, they wouldn't do it in a new vaccine. They would do it on one of the ones that they've been giving you for 50 years. So it's just, to me, I look.
[00:10:23] Speaker B: At it, hold on. I gotta worry about the 5G thing now and the vaccine and the nanotechnology with all of them, like, when my kids go to school, shoot, man, you just ruined my day.
[00:10:33] Speaker A: All I'm saying, if that's where you're going with the conspiracy, it's not like they wouldn't give you the quick like, oh, this is the new one. All you gotta do is watch out for that one. Like all the other ones you don't have to worry about, like, no, if they were being sneaky, they would be sneaky. It wouldn't be very sneaky to put it in something new.
[00:10:49] Speaker B: Hold on. That dude, Q didn't tell me all this. All right, I'm going to go.
We got to cut this short. I got to go.
It's funny, it makes so much common sense. What you just said is. I never thought about it.
You're right. Why would they try and hide it in the brand new, shiny brand new one. Yeah.
[00:11:07] Speaker A: Instead of the ones trying to fool.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: You, put it in polio vaccine. You know, Exactly. When Bill Gates starts buying up all the supplies of, like, penicillin and regular stuff, then I'll get worried.
Not when he's Coming out with a.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: Brand new one, you know, they put it in saline.
Yeah. They're gonna get this brand new shiny object, and that's where they're gonna try to sneak something by you.
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: But either way, I mean, that's what I say. Like, I think a lot of it is people get riled up and they just don't think about it, you know? And so. And I'm understand. I understand how you can get riled up, but, like, to bring it back, I don't think in terms of what we're used to dealing with in our society, this is that big of a deal.
It hits us a certain way because everybody's kind of riled up about things right now.
[00:11:51] Speaker B: Well, and one thing I do want to come back to just from what you just said, is a little bit of the misinformation, leadership and the sources of the misinformation. But for what you just said, I do want to talk about maybe like, like you just said, this is not new.
And this has happened before in our society. And one of the cases, in preparing for today, I've begun to realize and say on air, actually on our show, that in doing this podcast with you on a regular basis, I'm amazed because I'm forced to kind of do some research and always learn something new. So one of the new things I'll share with the audience, I had no idea about a smallpox outbreak that happened in Massachusetts in the early 1900s. That's actually the second major one. The first one happened in the late 1700s. But for this conversation, I'll get on the one it was from. It was the.
The outbreak happened from 1901 to 1903, the real height of the outbreak.
[00:12:50] Speaker A: And to your point earlier, we look at on a book, and it's like.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, like a dash. Like, that was fast.
[00:12:56] Speaker A: Just two years.
[00:12:57] Speaker B: That's it.
[00:12:57] Speaker A: If you're going day by day during that time, though, that's.
[00:13:01] Speaker B: As we're recording this, we're barely 18 months into this, and it feels like a lifetime. Right. So imagine two years, obviously longer. So you're right.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: And in a hundred years, they'll say, yeah, it happened from 2020 to 2022, and be like, oh, and nobody will give it a second thought. All the strife and pain that people have felt over this time. So. But go ahead.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Yeah. So there was a gentleman, a pastor out of Cambridge, Massachusetts, named Henning Jacobson, and basically smallpox was getting so bad. I'll just speed it up. The explanation in BO at the time that the state of Massachusetts basically put a mandate out there for vaccines, number one. And number two, if you didn't get vaccinated, you would pay a $5 fine. And they also, they did have a caveat for those that had some kind of medical ailment or something where they couldn't get a vaccine. They allowed that to be an exception, which I find interesting. Kind of fascinating that they had the medical technology in 1901 to kind of determine who was at risk and who not. So I thought that was.
[00:13:59] Speaker A: I mean. Well, Tunde.
[00:14:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: If they got the medical technology to give you the shot, they better have the medical technology.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: No, I know. I'm just saying I thought that was kind of cool. You had that. So I did the math of $5 over 115 years, since 1905, since the Supreme Court case, which I'll. Which I'll get in a second to at 3 1/2% inflation for 2020 numbers that came out to about $816.
Imagine a fine of about 1800 bucks or 800 bucks. Sorry if you didn't.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: That's a government fine, though. That's even different than what we're talking about right now because that's actually the government requiring you. But go.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: Yeah. So imagine if your state fines you 800 bucks for not taking a vaccine. So let's just not imagine how the public would freak out today with that. But anyway, long story short, he fought, went up to the Supreme Court, and what happened is the Supreme Court basically ruled against him in 1905. That's why I said the term 1905. It took a few years to get up to the upper court there.
But I'll read the quote from Justice John Marshall Harlan, and he said, quote, in every well ordered society charged with the duty of conserving the safety of its members, the rights of the individual in respect to his liberty may at times, under the pressure of great dangers, be subject to restraint to be enforced by reasonable regulations as the safety of the general public may demand.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I would say, like, I'm a person who is very skeptical of pharmaceutical companies. Like, I don't blink at the companies mandating vaccines because I think that companies mandate you do a lot of things if you want to work. There are a lot of conditions of employment. And so I just don't see that as some big departure. But if you want to be skeptical of a vaccine or anything that a pharmaceutical company is doing, I'm here for you. There's a lot of reasons. Not microchips, but if you want to say, oh, they didn't test it enough because they're just trying to make money. Like, there's a lot of things you can say. Like we considered talking about the Purdue pharma thing that's going on right now where they got, they've made billions of dollars creating the opioid crisis for money. You know what I'm saying? And so like, I think there are reasons to be skeptical of the pharmaceutical companies.
I haven't seen, I haven't seen that play out in this case yet. I've been looking for it. I am the one that's always wondering. I feel like there's a lot of greed, a lot of normal capitalist stuff, a lot of greed, a lot of ways, how can we maximize our profit? How can we minimize our risk? All of that stuff. I'm on the lookout for all that stuff now. I wanted to ask you though, because I did find a point. You mentioned the NFL and I found there is a point of distinction that I think is worth at least mentioning. And that is like some places are mandating it now. That's where like you come into work, you have to have the vaccine. Other places, like the NFL, I know MGM grand is doing this as well. Also the US Government, what Biden announced, for federal government employees, again, that's an employee or employer employee relationship, not for citizens. The government isn't saying that. But if you work there, and what they're saying basically is that they will set it up if you either get the vaccine or as part of your day to day work schedule, you got to get tested a whole bunch. If you get, if you test positive, you come out like you're going to lose money or something like that. Like you not being available is going to cost you. Whereas last year they may not have done that because there was no other option. Now that there's a vaccine, there is any type of violations of their Covid restrictions, you can't go here, can't go there, they're going to find you a bunch of money. MGM grand saying that if you don't get the vaccine and you can't come, you get Covid and can't come to work. You're not paid for that time. So like basically a web of negative incentives as opposed to an outright mandate.
I wanted to ask you what you thought about or whether you distinguish those. Do you think those are functionally different? Do you think they're the same? Or do we, either of those strike you as any different? Basically, yeah.
[00:17:53] Speaker B: It's interesting. I mean, I don't know what time will tell, I guess which one will, you know, we'll do this show in a year. Let's see which one was more effective. Let's remember that, put a pin in that one.
Because obviously this is new to all of us and we'll have to see how the carrots or sticks type of attitude from employers plays out over the next few months. But I would say this man, as someone who believes in, you know that I'm a proud free market type of guy and capitalist. Right. I believe that obviously a business entity, as a private corporation owned by individuals has a right to make their own decisions within the parameters of the law. Right. So if it's legal for them to tell someone, no, you can't show up in my place of business as an employee unless you take the protocols that I feel are safe to get us out of this or to not make more people infected within the corporation that I oversee, I'm responsible for keeping people safe here, or I take that responsibility serious, then I would say they have a right to do it. And I guess corporate America's fed up and doesn't want the economy derailed again.
[00:18:59] Speaker A: Let'S just put it that way. That's what it seems like. It seems like they're trying to go get this money and they don't want any shenanigans as far as that.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: And it really goes back to a lot of things we've covered before because a lot of people will look at this and take political cues. And now I'm sure that a lot of the these corporations that are doing this are going to be blamed for being woke and being somehow, you know, some sort of communist. But at the end of the day, it's just like the ESG investments, Morgan Stanley and Blackrock aren't communists. They want to make money.
So this has nothing to do with ideologies and all that this has to do with. They feel this is the best way for them to get back to normal.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: But I mean, I don't even think you got to go there though, because there's a certain part of, there's a certain segment of our country that just likes to call people names if they don't agree with or doing like whether it applies or not. So I think we can stay away from that. My thought on, well, one of them.
[00:19:44] Speaker B: Is my 10 year old, by the way. So just letting you know, he's part of that camp, but he's 10, so.
[00:19:48] Speaker A: He'S allowed, but he's. That's age appropriate.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:19:52] Speaker A: But for me, between the mandates and the negative incentives, you can say I find it to be a really fascinating approach. I saw.
And we'll put this in the show notes, but Johnny Taylor Jr. Who's of the Society of Human Resource Management, sounds like an advocacy group. They're saying that their internal polling says that at these, these big companies, 70% of employees want a vaccine mandate, which I found to be surprising. You know, like people, they want all of their coworkers to be mandated. So from that standpoint, it's almost like the, the management of these companies is being responsive to the desires of their workforce. Now granted, there's an overlap in priorities, so it's not like they're being, you know, magnanimous, like, oh yeah, we got you. It's like, no, they both want the same thing, maybe for different reasons. But I found it to be very interesting. I personally, you know, would always lend away or lean away from the mandate idea and lean more towards convince people in other ways get their voluntary compliance, even if it's through an arm twist versus just an outright iron fist. And so I myself am more comfortable with the idea of the negative incentives. But I don't know if that's going to work. I mean, some people may just decide that they're in the information they've gotten about this is it trumps everything else and they just say, hey, you know what, I'm just not going to do it. And if it's a negative incentive, what I got back to, or what I was getting into before about what freedom and choice and liberty was, if they're willing to pay the deal with the consequence of that, which would be these, these enhanced measures of all this more testing or just being subjected, if you miss any time you're subjected to fines and all this other stuff, if they're willing to deal with that, then they're just never going to come on board based on the negative incentive. And so from the business standpoint, like I don't, I personally don't have a dog in that fight, like that's going to be between that business and that employee. From the business standpoint, it seems like they have a much higher ceiling. And this is probably stating the obvious, a much higher ceiling with a mandate. And, but they may be able to, there may be more goodwill.
But again, I got to call that into question hearing that most of the employees, at least, at least one report, one study showing most of the employees want a mandate. So you're actually making people happy with that.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Let me just touch on A couple of things, because it's interesting, I was reading going back to the NFL, you know, the Tennessee Titans quarterback Ryan Tannehill was fighting the vaccine. He didn't want to get it and all that, but then he ended up getting it because he didn't want to. When they started going through all this, you know, that your life's going to be miserable to, I guess, the unionized players who couldn't just fire outright. He says he wouldn't have gotten the vaccine without the protocols that they are enforcing on us. I think it's a personal decision for each of us. I'm quoting. They are trying to force our hands and ultimately have forced a lot of hands by the protocols. It is what it is. So in the end of the day, he did it because he didn't, you know, he didn't want to live the other lifestyle as an employee of the NFL. And in the end, you know, look, I hope none of us get sick. I'm fully vaccinated, you know, 10, 20 years from now. So I know that there's a risk. But in the end, if we all look back, like we look back now at the 1901-1903 period, you know, that this type of behavior, this change in leadership, let's call it, by corporate America, may have paid off and it may have kind of helped to stem this tide and start to nip it in the bud.
[00:23:27] Speaker A: Well, I mean, I'd say I do want to move on a little bit and we can give a word to, like, as far as the skepticism that we see.
Like I said, I definitely, from a philosophical standpoint, appreciate the fact that people are not willing to just say okay, because some people, because you tell me this is okay, I'm all for it. What concerns me a lot of times, though, about the type of skepticism or the basis I've seen for a lot of the skepticism is that it seems to kind of come from La La land. And I say that again, saying that if you point out that there are likely reasons why something coming from pharmaceutical company may be compromised or may be dangerous, a lot of times those will deal with either they're trying to minimize their risk or they're trying to maximize their money, because that's how that's. Those are the values of corporations.
The idea, like I'm blown away by some of the conspiracy theories because it goes back to this kind of disbelief of the things that the people you don't like or the things you don't trust or. Or you kind of impress upon them like some omniscience or omnipotence. Like, I don't think it's possible really for some of the things they're talking about that are going to happen with this COVID vaccine. And then again, I've said already today when we're talking about things that if there was a sneaky plan, I fail to see how someone would try or some grand cabal would try to execute some sneaky plan with a bright, shiny new object. Like, if they were going to do something sneaky, they would do it with something that would fly under the radar. And nobody can say that COVID 19 vaccine is flying under the radar. They've been talking about it nonstop for a year.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: So we've had a change in government in this country with two very different administrations, and the same thing is happening. So, you know.
[00:25:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, and so I.
[00:25:23] Speaker B: It's just.
[00:25:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just so what I think, though, like, because it's so, like, again, if it was just saying, hey, I think they rushed it and I think that they didn't test it because they're just trying to make money. Like, nobody can really argue with you on that because you know what, pharmaceutical companies do that all the time.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:39] Speaker A: You know, so that's why I said we're vaccinated.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: And I'm fully aware that I could, in 20 years, maybe some problem does develop from this. I'm not naive to that. Correct. I'm not fully understanding of that. So.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Yes, but if it does, I would more likely assign it to the fact that they were trying to be fast than it is that they had some galaxy brain plan. And so where I'm going with this though, is that what I think it comes down to. And this isn't the first time, you know, like, this has been said, but I think it just comes down to, on one hand, you have just a massive distrust of institutions in general in our country that has really just taken hold. And you see this, I think, more in amongst the youth in particular.
And I say youth, like anybody under. Don't trust anybody under 30 type of thing. Like, where it's just the old folks in this country. And if you watch the news and pay attention to what's going on, you could truly come away thinking the old folks in this country have lost their mind.
And so I get it. I look at like, oh, yeah, I mean, they can't get anything right. They're rushing the capitol after an election, thinking that what actually obviously happened didn't happen. So you look at, like, if young People looking at the old people in this country, I can see why they wouldn't trust institutions. So I see that. And then I also see partisan driven lack of trust, which is more about controlling people. But both of those combined, though, you're going to have a large segment of people in the country that are just adamant, seemingly about not getting this. And the concern would be that I would have. That they're not going to be responsive to facts. And so all of these theories, all of this stuff, if none of that stuff comes true with hundreds of millions of vaccinated people, it won't cause them to reevaluate their position. They'll just still believe it because maybe it's just all about them. Like all of these shots are giving all these shots to these people just to get them. I don't know. But it's concern for me, man. It's a concern because I'm like, the reasonings or the reasons behind this lack of trust seem to not be based on things that may change.
[00:27:42] Speaker B: I'm laughing because it's like a level of narcissism. You're saying, yeah, all this stuff going on is about getting that shot in my arm, you know, like, it's all about me. I used to think about that when I was a little kid when I'd, you know, go to Sunday school and. And my mom, you know, be talking stuff. And I used to think. I never said it out loud, but I think in my head I saw those kids, like, in Ethiopia with the big belly, starving. Like, why would God, like, listen to me if I pray at night? Because, like, those kids need more attention than me.
[00:28:09] Speaker A: They got much worse than me.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: I guess I was like the ultimate non narcissist.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: Like, well, the narcissist is built.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: Isn't that bad if he's paying attention to me. Like, I don't want to take all that energy away. Like, he needs to.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: It's been focused on other people. But the narcissism is built in, though, like, because I know even if the government was trying to track. If the government's not trying to track most people, they're going to be trying to track a few people, but they're not going to.
[00:28:29] Speaker B: But real quick, I want to correct you on something because you're absolutely wrong. Because I can't believe that you don't think that it was BLM and Antifa and the FBI storming the Capitol on January 6th. I mean, I just, you know, we're going to have to have a breakup here.
I just I was so shocked.
[00:28:44] Speaker A: All of them in disguise.
[00:28:45] Speaker B: You just, you believe your lying eyes. It wasn't those guys. It was, it was all these other people. So anyway, but I want to say this because I got to. I'll put in my personal two cents. You know, I came down with COVID in January and I was hospitalized in February with my lungs failing. And I'm a healthy guy. I played NCAA basketball, I eat well. I got probably, you know, 10% or less of body fat. I work out all that kind of stuff.
My wife got sick, but, you know, the normal kind of, you know, week or two with the flu like symptoms and then she was better and then my kids actually kept testing negative. So what I would tell people after I kind of got better and all that is that don't try and assume you understand how this virus works because it affects everyone different. I'm the healthiest guy in my house and I'm the one that was in the hospital.
The other thing is my long haul symptoms were severe from January to May.
I cleared up.
And then, you know, I text you a nice picture of me from the hospital last week, Thursday, about four days ago, so. And so, because a week before that, my lungs started having issues again. So now I'm resigned to the fact this might be a long, you know, long, long haul, maybe the rest of my life. My point is, the reason I'm saying that on this show is everyone that I've talked to with vaccine hesitancy where they don't appreciate and I appreciate, like I said, this vaccine could do some damage to me in the. I got no idea. All I know is the experience I had getting that virus and being in a hospital with my lungs failing and having still issues now seven months later. I never want that vaccine. Sorry. I never want the COVID virus to infect me that way again. I know that I'm vaccinated, I can catch it, but at least until there's another variant, if people don't get vaccinated and we don't get to herd immunity, at least, at least under the current situation, that I probably won't die from the, from it now that I'm vaccinated. But you know, people can choose all they want what they're, what they're doing, but the reality is they're just making a choice either to get sick and potentially die or get in the hospital or to get vaccinated and maybe deal with some consequences on that. So I think everything's a choice and.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: Every choice has consequences because as we spoke about earlier. The you also, your choices on this matter will relate to your employment prospects apparently, moving forward, which again is not some violation of liberty like that is. Employers do that all the time. Like they, they put constraints on who can work here and all this stuff. And that's just the nature of the game. And so I think we can close that this topic up from here. I did also, you know, one thing.
[00:31:25] Speaker B: I wanted to mention, though, just real quick, that I found interesting to learn, just to share with the audience, you know, that the history, just for 30 seconds, vaccines, you know, in the modern era, go back to the year 1796 from a gentleman, Mr. Jenner in England, who started with cowpox and discovered that by rubbing that on some infected people with smallpox, it helped them out. So he tried it on healthy people and he found that when he did it to the healthy people, when they got exposed to smallpox, they didn't catch it. So that tells you that vaccination has been around for a couple hundred years in the modern form. But going back, they have in historic analysis, I guess going back to as early as the kind of 1000s, you know, early in the, in the modern era, post kind of Jesus Christ and the BC stuff, primarily in Asia and Africa. I found that that's where the most documented history of vaccination is. So it's just something that this isn't new to human history. But also each time that there's been a new pathogen and vaccines have been promoted, there's always been pushback. So again, this is nothing new. So I just wanted to kind of end this section on that.
[00:32:34] Speaker A: Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, and you've talked about this a lot. Kind of the memory of us as a species or our societies just recycles, you know, like people who these lessons were learned 120 years ago. That doesn't help us now because the people who are making decisions now weren't alive then and didn't learn those lessons. And so we all, like our species, just has to keep learning over and over again, which, I mean, to some degree, I guess, keeps things interesting.
[00:33:03] Speaker B: Now you're going to get glass half empty me.
This is why humans are doomed, because we ain't going to learn.
Watch. What did we talk about? A couple weeks ago, Seattle was 115 degrees.
When it's 500 degrees, then people, then we'll have herd immunity that everyone agrees about climate change, it'll be too late. So anyway, keep going.
[00:33:21] Speaker A: I wanted to, I also wanted to, I mean, you referenced already this episode how you Know you were NCAA athlete, high level basketball player.
And when seeing the high level, I'll correct you.
[00:33:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I was at a high level team at NCAA Division 1. But I sat the bench. I was low level.
Let me just make sure just in case I got a teammate or two listening to this.
Two of my teammates had really nice NBA careers. I didn't.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: So let's just be clear.
Hey man, you helped them get to where they got. Man, those hours in practice.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: I beat them up in practice.
Maybe I should go for some reparations.
I'm coming for you.
[00:34:02] Speaker A: Well, I wanted. We all saw last week, well, you know, the Tokyo Olympics are going on. The 2020 Olympics, which were postponed last year and are taking place this summer in Tokyo have been going on and you know, if you've been able to catch it, you know, there have been some exciting things and there have been just the normal Olympic stuff. There's no crowds or anything like that. So it's a different experience for sure.
But we saw Simone Biles, who is a just, you know, as decorated of a gymnast as there is, pull out of events, you know, which in which she was largely expected to do well or win or anything like that. She pulled out of several events up until like I guess right now or in the next 24 hours. She's, she said she's going to compete in another event. So we'll see if she able, if she does that. But what she said is she had the twisties, which for gymnasts is you mentally, you're not connected to where your body is, you know, you're not able to know where you are in the air as you're twisting and spinning and everything like that. Which could be dangerous obviously because they do impressive stuff, incredible stuff when they're in the air. And so what were your thoughts on Simone Biles having to take a step back, being willing to take a step back, having to do so and just this kind of mental aspect that we as laypeople, non high level athletes rarely ever think about in terms of the athletic competitions that we can watch or that we watch on television or go to.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: No, it's interesting, man. I think my thought on this has actually evolved since it first came out in the news. I think my first inclination when I heard about it, I kind of heard about it just that, oh, she quit basically in the middle of the Games. Right. So my first opinion was where you.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: Heard it from then? Let's put it like that.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'm just making an appointment. It might have been not you didn't.
[00:35:51] Speaker A: Get all the texture exactly.
[00:35:52] Speaker B: So it was like, you know, who's this loser? You know, all these kind of crybaby people and all that. So I kind of had that whole attitude. And then you're right. You know, texture is a good word, right. Once I started looking into it and understanding it, it's funny that we joked about, you know, I didn't plan on that segue, but we joked about my NCAA days because it brought me back to a little bit of my own experience as a high level athlete. When all this came up and I'm reading about, it kind of brought my mind and my emotions back to that part of my life. And I do remember, you know, when you talk about this twisties, what I started reading was what she was saying was, it's when you have a mental block and the acrobatic performance you're doing in the air and the spinning, your mind and your body are no longer in sync and basically your mind starts to shut off from what your body's doing. And you can actually really injure yourself because you're sitting there twisting and all that in the air and you're landing on a hard surface. And what it reminded me of is when I was 19, I was playing against Fordham University and I blew out my ACL on their court.
[00:37:00] Speaker A: And.
[00:37:03] Speaker B: That basically killed my basketball career from a psychological angle because for probably two or three years after that, I couldn't exert myself 100%. I would jump and there would always be this subconscious almost fear that was at a subconscious level because my body didn't want to experience that same physical pain that I had when I blew out my knee.
And as you know, as a 19 year old kid playing college basketball, if you got two to three years of a mental setback, your career is over. And, you know, I found myself at 22, working at corporate America, which is fine. What made me, what I'm sharing this about, my personal experience, it reminded me that most people don't know what not only athletes go through. I have no idea what an Olympian at her level goes through, period. Because I think I know what NCAA was. That ain't Olympics. That ain't gymnastics. That ain't that kind of level of competition. And so what I'm getting at is what kind of helped me evolve. My thinking was I thought about all that and then I said, well, hold on, who is Simone Biles? I said, here's a girl that was molested by that guy, Larry Nassar, the doctor. So she got to deal with that she is the greatest gymnast in American Olympic history and I guess one of the best in the world history.
And you know who she reminded me of in that moment?
Mike Pence.
And I know you didn't think I was going there, so I'm glad to surprise you.
What it showed me was just like Mike Pence, you said this on a prior show that we're doing on a totally different topic.
He was a statue for four years, showed 99.99999% fealty, right? With the cause and the movement.
But when push came to shove at the very end, when he was just going to do what was his constitutional duty and oversee on January 6, the certification of an election that he was actually going to lose, right? That he lost and he was just doing what he was supposed to do as the Vice President, United States, then people stormed the building trying to hang him. And even his former partner in politics disavows him and calls him a loser.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: So remember, like you said, so 99% isn't good enough.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: It's not enough. And that's what I thought about, about the Americans who are now on this bandwagon of criticizing Simone Biles. We've got someone who represented this country to the nth degree and won gold medals for this country.
Someone who has publicly, you know, we know that she suffered sexual abuse as a teenager by a dude who has.
[00:39:29] Speaker A: Overcame that to still overcame that to.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: Wear tights in front of the whole world and a big crowds. Right? I mean, that's pretty. For someone sexually molested, I could see that being intimidating and just forget about it. What it takes to be that kind of athlete, and she's only 24 years old and has all these accomplishments and never anything negative in the press. I don't hear about her doing drugs. I don't hear about her cussing people out, any of that.
But for some people in our country, it's just not good enough. And she's a loser. So that's what kind of thinking about it that way is what changed my opinion about her. And this whole thing, it reminded me why I'm off social media and off cable tv. Because it's this type of discourse in our country that actually just makes me sick. Because when I started thinking about my own experience in the NCAA as a basketball player, my point is, is that I'm 1% of what she must have dedicated herself in her life. Like, I can't even compare myself to her.
And to face this level of scrutiny and disrespect because she's telling us that she's having an issue with performing in the sport. What she did is she did the United States a favor by getting out of there. That's so Soon Lee could win and keep us in the gold. And I wanna say something too, real quick.
Both Soon Lee and her are great examples of what this country should be emulating.
Well, two kids that are being true teammates. That's what. I'll leave it at that.
[00:40:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I'd say the one. I mean, I think the ability that. To evolve as you kind of laid out is something that is the ability to have initial reaction and not commit your emotion to that initial reaction and to actually say, okay, well, let me find out more information is helpful because, yeah, I mean, I think that in this scenario, I mean, Simone Biles, I'm glad that she got prominent support as well. But ultimately, well, I just. I'm glad that she got that because it feels good to have people support you, you know, no matter what. I mean, you walk out into the crowd, people say, you know, home court advantage or different things like that. A lot of times is because it's nice to go to work and everybody's like, ah, that's great. You're amazing. And so I'm glad that she got prominent support.
It's unfortunate that, you know, like, there were people hating on her, you know, but, like, with her, I mean, from that standpoint, I kind of look at it like, you know, the lion really shouldn't be concerned with what the animals that the lion eat think, you know, like. Because Simone Biles is much more accomplished than anybody who was saying anything negative about her, you know, like, so from her standpoint, I mean, her credentials are set in stone. You know, like, all the stuff she's done, all of that, she's overcome all the mental toughness, physical toughness and all that. And so it was nice just to see the public support, you know, and to know that she got that because, you know, the peanut gallery is going to say what the peanut gallery says. And, you know, like, they almost are waiting for things to. To complain about. You know, like, there's. They're waiting to. To express unhappiness. You know, it's just built up in them. And so I don't even know from our standpoint, I don't even give that any thought. But I do think the point you made as far as your own experience with that is really interesting here because what you're talking about actually is the ability to play with reckless abandon is how I would term that, to just not think about it and your knee would have healed, but physically you would have healed. And so it wasn't a physical problem that was holding you back during that time, it was a mental part. And we non high level athletes don't think about that kind of stuff. Like we see people performing amazing physical feats, but we never think about how the mental has to be in concert for all that stuff to happen. Because once the mental goes, then the physical stuff doesn't work anymore either, even if the physical stuff is in good working order.
And so from, you know, to actually see that happen here, where she actually had to say, I got to step back, my mental is not connected with my physical. And then to see her, I think it's actually good that she's going to try to give it a go now as well. And to see what she can, if she can reconnect it, that would actually be even more impressive that over the course of these last couple of days she was able to reconnect it sufficiently to get back in. And so I think it's very instructive though just as an observation point, it was just saying, wow, we actually can get the exemplification.
She has done us another favor kind of thing of illustrating this. And for the people that are willing to learn, for people that are willing to try to understand, it can be more that we can grow from. And that's all it needs to be. You know, like people who don't, people who are just looking for reasons to be unhappy. I mean that's just, that's them. Like as you said, it's a free country. I mean that's gonna be, that's part of the background noise of life, so to speak.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: Yeah, man. No, and I think, I mean, you hit it on the head with that statement that Simone Biles has accomplished 1,000 times more than anyone who's ever criticized her, number one. Number two, anyone that's ever done anything difficult in a. I don't know, that's a loaded statement I'm making. But meaning this type of high level competition understands that it's not easy and these type of things can just happen and it's not fun.
[00:44:40] Speaker A: And yeah, in other sports they call it like the yips. Like this is a thing, you know, like, but, but go ahead, go ahead.
[00:44:46] Speaker B: Well, it's just, you know, it's just, look, it's just life because I'm gonna give you a totally different perspective of it, which is something, again, I got no shame in my game. And I'm a confident individual and I'm secure in my manhood, so I got no problem sharing this. That, you know, when I was a virgin and I was a teenager, the first couple of times I tried to be with chicks, you know, I was so nervous I couldn't get it up.
So, you know, I had erectile dysfunction at a young age because I was so fucking nervous that I couldn't perform, even though at that age I was, you know, without getting vulgar. Right. I could masturbate at that age.
[00:45:18] Speaker A: So you didn't have realizing. Your point being you didn't have a physical problem?
[00:45:21] Speaker B: Correct. And my point is, is that I'm okay admitting that because I'm secure with myself. And, you know, at some point early on, that problem fixed itself and I've been okay since. But the point is, I remember again, just like with my knee blowout, that's what brought me thinking about this part of my life too. I thought, yeah, man, I remember when I was young and insecure and I didn't know what to do with a girl. And it's just. It was just I was nervous. And then the minute I started thinking about it, it would made it worse because once I started thinking about it, then it really wasn't gonna work. And it just was that whole thing. And so my point is saying that to your point, I guarantee you, because I'm not the only guy that that's happened to that a lot of the men making fun of Simone Biles, now, a lot of them have had the issue, but you know what? They ain't gonna be real men like me and admit this shit. So what a way to free that. What a way to dig that.
There you go.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: He's right, man.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: Hey, man, when I say there ain't no shame in my game, I'm saying it on air. And that's. That's. You can take that to the bank. So. Hey, I mean.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: But it's. It's a good point. That's my point.
[00:46:23] Speaker B: Like, yeah, like, it's. It's. I don't have anything to prove to anyone, and that's why I can say that.
[00:46:28] Speaker A: But your thought show.
[00:46:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:30] Speaker A: Thought though, that once you start thinking about it.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: When you. When your mind isn't in line with what your body's trying to do, once you start thinking about it, you're done.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: Correct. And, you know, it's another interesting.
[00:46:42] Speaker A: You know, it may not be something that. That they have experienced to draw. And so it's nice that you shared your experiences with us on these areas. And, you know, definitely, you know, if. If someone doesn't have that experience firsthand, then just hearing about it can maybe give more context to it. So, you know, I think we can close this up from here, man.
[00:47:02] Speaker B: Hold on real quick. We're going to have the new Call It Like I See It Late Night Hour where I only talk about my.
I only talk about my bloopers in the bedroom.
[00:47:18] Speaker A: Oh, no.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: Clearly, we're gonna only fall to about two audience members and those two guys in jail last. You'll need a new host for that one.
[00:47:26] Speaker A: You'll need a new co host.
[00:47:29] Speaker B: That'll be the sub.
The sidebar of Call It.
[00:47:35] Speaker A: Oh, man.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: I'll be alone with a cup of coffee later.
You're on the night train solo.
[00:47:42] Speaker A: But now we. I think we can close this up from here, man. But now we appreciate everybody for joining us on this episode of Call It Like I See It. And as we share our experiences and many may consider overshare, but that's okay, though, because, you know, personal experience sometimes is helpful to learn from. So until next time, I'm James Keys.
[00:48:02] Speaker B: Lana.
[00:48:02] Speaker A: All right, subscribe, rate review and we'll talk to you next time.
